An Informal Debate on Race Relations in the United States Including Its History

[OldLady]

White people have a drug problem... they have a drug problem.
Black people have a drug problem... it's racism
White people poor - they are poor due to laziness and poor life choices
Black people poor - it's racism.
White people become criminals.... they are criminals
Black people become criminals... it's racism.
White kids flunk in school.... they flunked out for various reasons.
Black kids flunk in school.... it's racism.

See a pattern here?

I don't know who you're responding to, here, but all I'm saying is that until those things are equal between the races, it's clear racism is playing a PART.
Like I've already said, a lot of those same problems are caused by the exact same thing. Poverty. They go hand in hand and make things worse every generation. That is a class problem, not a race problem, but the fact that as a group, there are still far more lower class blacks? THAT is due to inherent racism.

 

[IM2]

"Maybe whites are still doing better because we come from a superior culture, with superior values. Maybe adopting those values and that culture would go a long way towards equalizing outcomes. But if folks choose not to use tactics proven to succeed, and instead keep on doing shit that has failed for generations, then that's on them.
And that's not systemic racism, that's a wide-scale failure to get one's shit together. "

And 243 years of laws and public policy say that whites are doing better because they created laws and policies that excluded blacks. That is not evidence of a superior culture or values. Now I am quite certain you don't want us to use the "sucessful" tactics whites used to do so much better.

 

[katsteve2012]

Ignore the fight-picking, if you possibly can, please. It's just his defense.

No problem. That will be easy.

 

[IM2]

In then end... and I am most likely done here...
I personally can say with 110% genuine belief - there is no difference between whites and blacks in everything that counts the day they are born. Blacks are absolutely, in no way shape or form inferior to whites. PERIOD.
And anyone who thinks so is ignorant. PERIOD.
Having said that, blacks were severely hampered by the liberal social programs of the 50s - 80s. And those inner city blacks are to this day still paying the price for it 100%. What the hell did people expect when an entire section of the populations were slammed together in jam packed public housing purposefully situated away from jobs, away from schools = away from everyone else. This was done ON PURPOSE.
And Democrats today want to pretend this whole process didn't happen.
They institutionalized and victimized an entire race of people...who had children, who also had children - all brought up in these public housing where there are no jobs, shitty schools and NO ONE judges them for whatever bad choices they make. NO ONE calls them out for HUGE cultural problems - that they DID NOT HAVE prior to the 1950s.
Democrats took a proud, hard working group of people - and ruined them.
And they are doing the same thing with Latinos.

This makes no sense and in fact it's totally inaccurate.

 

[OldLady]

NO ONE calls them out for HUGE cultural problems - that they DID NOT HAVE prior to the 1950s.

The very first article IM put up says that blacks have had a HUGE increase in economic and educational achievement since 1968. That to me means they DID have those problems prior to the 1950's. I'm not a black historian--I'll let others here who know more about it speak to it.
But I think to say blacks were all hunky dory in the 50's and 60's is probably inaccurate. If they were doing so well they wouldn't have been eligible for welfare or public housing to begin with.

 

[OldLady]

Was there a link to this?

No, it's just a book and I underlined it because that's what English teachers do with book titles. We're anal.

 

[OldLady]

personally can say with 110% genuine belief - there is no difference between whites and blacks in everything that counts the day they are born. Blacks are absolutely, in no way shape or form inferior to whites. PERIOD.
And anyone who thinks so is ignorant. PERIOD.

Thank you for that.

 

[IM2]

No, it's just a book and I underlined it because that's what English teachers do with book titles. We're anal.

Lol. No problem OldLady. Is that suggested reading?

A Toni Morrison book. Yep. I'm going to read it.

 

[OldLady]

"Maybe whites are still doing better because we come from a superior culture, with superior values. Maybe adopting those values and that culture would go a long way towards equalizing outcomes. But if folks choose not to use tactics proven to succeed, and instead keep on doing shit that has failed for generations, then that's on them.
And that's not systemic racism, that's a wide-scale failure to get one's shit together. "

And 243 years of laws and public policy say that whites are doing better because they created laws and policies that excluded blacks. That is not evidence of a superior culture or values. Now I am quite certain you don't want us to use the "sucessful" tactics whites used to do so much better.

LOL Good point.

 

[IM2]

The very first article IM put up says that blacks have had a HUGE increase in economic and educational achievement since 1968. That to me means they DID have those problems prior to the 1950's. I'm not a black historian--I'll let others here who know more about it speak to it.
But I think to say blacks were all hunky dory in the 50's and 60's is probably inaccurate. If they were doing so well they wouldn't have been eligible for welfare or public housing to begin with.

In 1959 blacks had a 55 percent rate of poverty. So liberal programs didn't harm the black community.

 

[OldLady]

Lol. No problem OldLady. Is that suggested reading?

A Toni Morrison book. Yep. I'm going to read it.

It's a coming of age story of a young girl. Not sure how much you'll relate, but I loved it. Love TM anyway.

 

[IM2]

It's a coming of age story of a young girl. Not sure how much you'll relate, but I loved it. Love TM anyway.

I won't personally relate but I will learn more about what women feel and experience which is good.

 

[Coyote]

The thing is that whites too often want to get mad about that but our whole lives whites have not looked at us as individuals. We are expected by whites not to look at them as racists while I have a masters degree, never fathered a child out of wedlock, been a criminal, never took welfare, worked from the time I was nine, built sucessful businesses, yet I am told to get a job, stop committing crimes, take care of my children, that I need to get off welfare and get an education. We are supposed to assume a white person is not a racist while whites can assume we are violent.

We are not at this point because people were thought of as individuals. We are here because laws and policies were made denying and benefiting groups.

But aren’t you lumping all whites together...doing what they do to you?

Why shouldn’t we both change our group assumptions?

 

[OldLady]

Racism is not an individual level or micro level problem.

It's where it starts and you'll never get rid of the systemic problems until the people acting in the system get a handle on their own biases.
Let their be peace on Earth, and let it begin with me.

 

[OldLady]

"Maybe whites are still doing better because we come from a superior culture, with superior values. Maybe adopting those values and that culture would go a long way towards equalizing outcomes. But if folks choose not to use tactics proven to succeed, and instead keep on doing shit that has failed for generations, then that's on them.
And that's not systemic racism, that's a wide-scale failure to get one's shit together. "

And 243 years of laws and public policy say that whites are doing better because they created laws and policies that excluded blacks. That is not evidence of a superior culture or values. Now I am quite certain you don't want us to use the "sucessful" tactics whites used to do so much better.

That was a real eye opener about the Enlightenment philosophers, by the way. Holy shit.

 

[OldLady]

IM2 Apparently Green & Blue has me on ignore. Would you tell him to stop posting here?

 

[freyasman]

Okay. And 2/3 of the blacks in this country have done exactly that. The "loser" culture is exactly the same one I see in poor white communities. Bitterness and a negative attitude toward a system that has shut them out and never given them a break. I don't know where you live, but in rural communities of small towns where everyone knows everyone's business and who their daddy's were, who know the last names that spell t-r-o-u-b-l-e, those kids are "branded" from the minute they enter Pre-K.

I was a single mom with a young child (not in a rural area at that time) and at one point had to wear my work uniform to appointments, pretending I'd just gotten out of work, because I literally didn't have any other clothes to wear. I was constantly getting mistaken for an ignorant young mom who knew nothing about childhood nutrition or parenting or vaccinations and got plenty of long lectures every time I interacted with professionals. They judged me on my age and my situation and lumped me with the wrong group. I had read Benjamin Spock's Baby and Child Care from cover to cover three times before my son was born and we never missed a well child check and I put balanced meals on the table three times a day.

It happens. When you grow up in that 'sub culture' of losing, most people take on those attitudes without ever consciously thinking about it. Humans are social animals. That is how we are wired, we absorb our culture from the people around us via observation. But those attitudes, like you said, can be changed. It's not something a poor inner city kid wakes up one day realizing, though. Not unless the seed gets planted from somewhere.

The choice is not always that obvious to people living it, I guess is my point.

No shit lady..... you think I figured any of this out before I was 30? Fuck no..... I was in the hole from the time I was born and stayed there for a long time too, because no one explains shit to you. Not if you don't have something they want, anyway.
But past a certain age, it's on you to figure it out, and do what needs doing, not anyone else.

So quit pointing fingers at other people.

Life ain't fair, the house always has the odds in their favor, and no one gives a fuck about your feelings.

Deal with it.

 

[freyasman]

If anyone is butthurt, you are. And the last time I checked, this is a thread that certain people were invited to.

One of which I am, so by commenting I WAS minding my business..

If you are too thin skinned and tantrum prone to deal with that, maybe you shouldn't be here.

Okay then, you asked a question and I responded. You objected to that response and I didn't give a shit.

Have I correctly summarized things so far?

 

[freyasman]

You need to leave. Because you aren't calling anyone out. You're repeating right wing racist bullshit because you have no agreement or rebuttal and think you can get to me by repeating a bunch of retardo. You are the racist here and you serve no good purpose in this debate. Whites like you are the problem. Notice that I said whites like you which means I am talking about a particular type of white person and not all whites. Therefore it's not a racist comment.

You know what's fun?

Watching a racist like you fold and resort to calling me names because you can't win the debate.
I know you're scared to read what I post but here's another lesson for you.

I have been called “racist” by White people whenever I specifically reject a legislative, political, media/film/art, or cultural manifestation of White supremacy. I’ve also been called “racist” for recounting any experience that I have had with racism. The actual act of naming what I heard or experienced is deemed “racist.” Apparently, what I actually heard or experienced is of no concern or consequence to Whites seeking to call Black people or other people of colour racist.

There’s two reasons why Whites call people of colour (especially Black people) “racist.” First of all, it comes from a lack of understanding of the term (through ignorance or willful ignorance and hatred), its history and its consequences. As long as “racism” is viewed solely as “one person being mean to another person because of their race” or basically solely as an individual and arbitrary instance of prejudice with equal social capital between the individuals, Whites can obscure or ignore the ramifications of the historical (whether implied, microaggressions or overt racism), institutional, structural and systemic manifestations of White supremacy (which does NOT require extremism to exist) and racism.

A Black person being insulted based on slurs that facilitate(d)(s) oppression and genocide for centuries and that same sentiment behind that slur facilitates the denial of a plethora of opportunities as well as supports a plethora of types of discrimination and punishment represents a different magnitude and scope of an insult versus a Black person “hurting” a White person’s feelings, even if the former is rude.

Many times an insult is not occurring—it’s just a Black person adamantly rejecting White supremacy. The rejection of White supremacy and racism themselves is not “reverse racism.”

Why Whites Call People Of Colour "Racist"

I have been called “racist” by White people whenever I specifically reject a legislative, political, media/film/art, or cultural manifestation of White supremacy. I’ve also been called “racist” for...

www.gradientlair.com

You don't have the intelligence to fuck with the champ.

Champ? Of what?
Grandiose self-delusion?


LOL

 

[OldLady]

So quit pointing fingers at other people.

If the shoe don't fit, don't wear it. Your responses are consistently rude, disrespectful and triggered as if I had made a personal attack, where none is meant.
Maybe Coyote can empathize with how you're feeling, but this is getting pretty old.