An Informal Debate on Race Relations in the United States Including Its History

[IM2]

I never heard of it. Why is he so upset about the term?

I am about to show you.

 

[OldLady]

That's the point Oldlady, there was no such thing as the right to conquest.

You just admitted the Europeans used it to justify their actions. Of course there is no such thing as a right of conquest. We know that. But people were looney with the lust for power and subjugation back then. All about who could collect the most pennies in a pile. As I tell my students, most every war, if you dig deep enough, money is at its root.

 

[OldLady]

I am about to show you.

I sense this will be a long one.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

But if you get into power, you are going to act no better than the people you hate, and I expect you will probably be a lot worse. Because you will be motivated by hatred and revenge for wrongs you believe done you and yours, some real, some not..... but it won't matter, because you will feel justified and righteous in the evil you will do.

I honestly think you're projecting how you would behave onto IM2. And you know why I say this? I've always been a worker never part of management but a set of circumstances placed me in a mangement position temporarily, for a short term project.

I hired two male developers to build out the new system I designed, one was white and the other Armenian, both really smart guys who were completely competent and even though I treated them as my equals and not subordinates, while things seemed to go well in the beginning, they started doing things that essentially begin to sabotage the project, including telling me that work had been completed only to discover once I was out of the office and on the other side of the country, that no it hadn't been completed and I couldn't continue with my portion of the project because of this. Oh and telling me no, they weren't going to do the things I asked of them (I was their supervisor).

Long story short, one of them managed to get himself hired on with the company and took over the project while the other contractor was let go. My project ended while I was out on temporary leave but then my former subordinate who was now the project lead extended an invitation for me to come back and interview for my old job only this time I would have been his subordinate instead of his supervisor and there would have been at least a $20/hr reduction in pay. I interviewed and told him I could not work at the reduced pay he was offering but he hired someone else even after telling me I was the person most qualified for the job.

This guy is the kind of person you're accusing IM2 of being and IM2 has shown nothing that indicates he is scheming and manipulative like my former subordinate was. In fact I was working another contract where my contract instead of expiring was extended six more months and I was given sole responsibility for the support of one of their legacy databases. One of the full time team members threw a temper tantrum that was so rediculous that he threatened to resign if they didn't take the project from me and give it to him. He actually turned in his resignation letter before they gave in to his demands and let me go. White guy.

And I won't even go into Uncle's Sam's rejects that I gave opportunites to who apprently resented me having authority over them. One black one white.

So in my opinion, I have a very level view of the grievances being put forth about black people and who we are and what we're not (all that) and how uneducated and lazy, etc. we allegedly are. And I'm not an exception, and neither are IM2, KatSteve or Asclepias. In fact most black people are not living in poverty or the inner city or are the scourge of society and criminals that you all paint us as.

Oh, and one last thing. I wanted to hire a female developer because we had a candidate who was exactly what I was looking for and had the software experience for the existing system but I was overruled.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Well, shit lady..... who did you think you were inviting?
I'm a mean, profane, violent Heathen bastard who has killed more people than a plane crash and doesn't really give a shit what anyone else thinks about anything, as long as they leave me alone.

What were you expecting?

Why have you killed so many people? And is this something you're proud of?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

THIS IS A CONTINUATION OF POSTS # 144 and 156

The posts numbers changed a bit so maybe some posts got deleted, but if you've been following what I've said thus far I have shown what was on the minds of the founders and framers as they founded this Republic. For better or worse, the truth is the truth.

Since there is no attempt to have a serious or honest discourse outlining the subject matter from the point of the white people (of which I've made no comment against the black peoples point of view), we're down to slinging skeet and allowing black supremacists to make unfounded charges, so, this time I can sound off and just post opinions.

Whether you like it or you don't like it, America was founded by white people. If you want to call it "racist," be my guest because I have some opinions of those of you supporting black extremism. China, Japan, North Korea, South Korea, Zimbabwe, and many other smaller countries that I can name are 98 + percent homogeneous. NOBODY seems to have a problem with that. Well over 98 percent of China's population is Han Chinese. China is a country where there are more Chinese in China than there are white people on the face of the earth. China even outlaws Muslims and Catholics (among others) from coming there and setting up shop. People go to the shooting, looting and obstructing traffic rallies, forcing whites to accept a skewed version of both history and reality. Oh, so many people are "offended" by racism (sic), but if we took all the products in their homes that were made in places like China and Japan (which has claimed to be the most racially pure nation on earth) their place would look like Old Mother Hubbard's cupboard... it would be bare.

When I went into the history of this subject, I'm asked what's the point? What WAS the point if you don't want to understand the issue from ALL sides of the political spectrum? You don't have to belong to the MAGA crowd (I'm not a member); you don't need to be "Identity" (of which I'm not, regardless of the lies the first loser of this "debate" posted) and you don't need to be a white supremacist to have an unpopular opinion about race relations. We do not question the motives of all the other races and cultures on this earth who practice the "pretend evils" that black people claim are offensive. The difference is, black people are concerned with THEIR RACE and its well being. When a black supremacist speaks out, they advocate for the self determination of the black people. NOBODY is allowed to offer a view from a white man's perspective, however, without being subject to personal attacks. The black supremacists realize that they have NO legitimate issues by which to attack whites. And there is no way in Hell that this topic is about slavery.

BIG money powers wanting to court the black vote on one hand and destroy the Republic on the other, illegally ratified the 14th Amendment. Today, the blacks hide behind the 14th Amendment to claim their "civil rights" and tell you how much they find slavery or any mention thereof offensive. I call B.S. on them. While the REAL INTENT of the 14th Amendment was to nullify the Bill of Rights and abolish unalienable Rights, reducing all Americans to the status of a government slave, black people love to hide behind that atrocity and call white people names and wage a war of genocide against whites. Ironically, the political party that wants every person to advance based upon their inherent abilities was not to the liking of most black people. So, black supremacists did a Pearl Harbor on the people that went to bat for them and today they bitch about slavery. Yet most blacks choose politicians that tell them when they should wake up in the morning, what they should eat, where they should work, what a living wage is, and how they should rely on a government / god for their education, health, and individual welfare. In short, they love being slaves; they just don't like the perception that whites are still governing the country. It is hate mongering racism at a level that would make most white supremacists (though none exist any longer in the United States - maybe enough to fill a school bus), blush. Blacks vote for slavery EVERY election cycle... and then blame the whites for the government the blacks create. They love living in the past, unable to accept the role of their own brethren that sold them in the first place and then having their lying spokesmen come out to defend the people who profited the most off it - even to the point of making false allegations against me to hide their real motives. If somebody wants the facts, bring it. I doubt it will be in this thread because it's plain to me, the supremacists wanting to wage a war of genocide against the Posterity of the founders by defacing and removing their statues, memorials, monuments, and plaques; changing the names of streets, schools and other government buildings; outlawing their flags; limiting their Rights to Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Association and demanding that we get down on our knees for allowing them the privilege to be Americans are fighting, using the playbook of Isis with their hate and destruction. They can't handle the truth.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

I know and have known, some truly racist guys. I worked in a nightclub owned by a Klansman years ago. I actually met a white-power crew a few years ago, and I know one person who is related to an ABoT shotcaller up in Huntsville.
And the thing is, hardly any of these folks have any problem at all with regular black folks; they seem to get along just fine with them. But they absolutely hate and despise the ghetto thug/gangsta culture of the inner city blacks. And they aren't inclined to listen to any defense of them either. As far as I can tell, they don't hate black people, they hate a tiny sub-culture of predatory, violent criminals within a much larger group.

And you don't even rise to the level of civility of the Klan? Or did I misunderstand you?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Okay, this sounds pretty accurate according to what I remember from my history classes. Do you have any documentation on why they prohibited interracial marriage?

Already provided. Israelites are not permitted to marry outside their race. It was part of the tenets of faith of the first colonists.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I'm not familiar with the term "Identity" you keep referring to. What does it mean that has you so upset?

It is loosely white supremacists who took a passage here and there from the religion of our forefathers so they could pretend to be Christians and justify a campaign of hatred and developed a movement called "Identity." It's not really a religion, it's a pretext for some jackasses to promote an ideology that they've been too cowardly to come out and defend while this race war is going on.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

That's the point Oldlady, there was no such thing as the right to conquest.

That was a lie I refuted with actual links.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

The right of conquest is a white European construct that was not internationally accepted. This is an excuse whites made to justify invasions and colonization. Had it been internationally recognized there would not have been uprisings and revolutions in colonized countries. The fact it created the excuse for European aggression created the 1928 Kellogg–Briand Pact, Nuremberg Trials, and the UN Charter to end the foolishness.

I'm in this debate and you presented white supremacist lunacy based on erroneous beliefs propagated by Europeans.

When you don't like the facts, you simply attack others. You're too chickenshit to allow people to READ the facts and make up their own mind. You are a liar.

 

[OldLady]

the REAL INTENT of the 14th Amendment was to nullify the Bill of Rights and abolish unalienable Rights, reducing all Americans to the status of a government slave,

Slow down and explain this.

 

[IM2]

Let's look at Rockwells words.

In 1620 the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock and once there they issued the first governing document of the New World. It contains these words:

In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, defender of the Faith, etc.
Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid;

Within a year approximately half of those that had made that voyage had died of starvation or disease. Yet the white people kept coming. In 1630, John Winthrop delivered a sermon aboard the Arbella as it made its voyage to this new land. The title of that sermon is A Model of Christian Charity and I bring that up because all the way up to JFK and Ronald Reagan, statesmen and presidents have referenced that sermon. In that sermon are many quotes to prove my thesis, but I'm only going to use one in order to make my point:

"Thus stands the cause between God and us. We are entered into covenant with Him for this work. We have taken out a commission. The Lord hath given us leave to draw our own articles. We have professed to enterprise these and those accounts, upon these and those ends. We have hereupon besought Him of favor and blessing. Now if the Lord shall please to hear us, and bring us in peace to the place we desire, then hath He ratified this covenant and sealed our commission,...."

Winthrop made the case that the Puritans were in a covenant relationship with God and they saw this new land as the New Jerusalem of the Bible. This sermon shows that the Puritans believed that they were the Israelites mentioned in Jeremiah 31 - 31 through 34 that entered into a covenant with God for a monumental undertaking. In short, the Puritans swallowed up the Pilgrims who held that same basic presupposition and the rest is history. For more information on that aspect, see this:

(Such groups have hijacked the benign religious concept of Anglo-Israelism, (also known as British-Israelism). The latter teach that the British (and by extension Americans, Canadians, and others) are the spiritual and literal descendants of the 10 lost tribes of ancient Israel. After the invasion of the Northern kingdom of Israel, the Assyrians scattered the indigenous population. They resettled in the Caucasus Mountains, and later drifted into Europe. The Christian Identity movement extended that theory and generated their own profoundly racist doctrine. They believe that the white race (or the "Aryan peoples" or "White Anglo Saxon Protestants", or the "British Peoples", or "White Americans") represent God's chosen people, as mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). They have taken these beliefs in an extreme direction to justify their hatred of Blacks, Jews, homosexuals and communists. )

CHRISTIAN IDENTITY MOVEMENT

The Christian Identity Movement

www.religioustolerance.org

I'm leaving out a lot of history lest this quick glance back at history becomes too lengthy. But, let's fast forward to the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration of Independence states:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Right away, one would think this is the liberals dream of an integrated America; however, you read the Declaration of Independence a little closer and you see language like "the ravages of the savages" and there is no mistake WHO that document was intended to represent. We have Rights being bestowed upon us by a Creator; we read of a firm reliance on Divine Providence (language that is synonymous with a Christian God.) In any event, the Declaration of Independence lays out specific reasons we went to war. And so, the basic points I want to make in this short synopsis:

1) America was founded by whites who came here with little more than the shirts on their back to build a "shining city on a hill"

2) America's first governing document was for the advancement, protection, and furtherance of the Christian faith, NOT as a theocracy, but a land where colonists would seek religious Liberty

3) Just as any other people, the white Christians who were building their idea of a Great Nation, sought the Right of self determination. Insofar as the taking of land, they were guided by the prevailing law of Right of Conquest. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing, that is the basis by which the colonists took America from uncivilized people and built a nation on the land they contend that God had preordained them to have in order to establish this New Jerusalem wherein all the nations of the earth would be blessed.

Again:

(Such groups have hijacked the benign religious concept of Anglo-Israelism, (also known as British-Israelism). The latter teach that the British (and by extension Americans, Canadians, and others) are the spiritual and literal descendants of the 10 lost tribes of ancient Israel. After the invasion of the Northern kingdom of Israel, the Assyrians scattered the indigenous population. They resettled in the Caucasus Mountains, and later drifted into Europe. The Christian Identity movement extended that theory and generated their own profoundly racist doctrine. They believe that the white race (or the "Aryan peoples" or "White Anglo Saxon Protestants", or the "British Peoples", or "White Americans") represent God's chosen people, as mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). They have taken these beliefs in an extreme direction to justify their hatred of Blacks, Jews, homosexuals and communists. )

 

[IM2]

When you don't like the facts, you simply attack others. You're too chickenshit to allow people to READ the facts and make up their own mind. You are a liar.

You aren't stating facts, you are trying to justify white supremacy.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Let's look at Rockwells words.

In 1620 the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock and once there they issued the first governing document of the New World. It contains these words:

In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, defender of the Faith, etc.
Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid;

Within a year approximately half of those that had made that voyage had died of starvation or disease. Yet the white people kept coming. In 1630, John Winthrop delivered a sermon aboard the Arbella as it made its voyage to this new land. The title of that sermon is A Model of Christian Charity and I bring that up because all the way up to JFK and Ronald Reagan, statesmen and presidents have referenced that sermon. In that sermon are many quotes to prove my thesis, but I'm only going to use one in order to make my point:

"Thus stands the cause between God and us. We are entered into covenant with Him for this work. We have taken out a commission. The Lord hath given us leave to draw our own articles. We have professed to enterprise these and those accounts, upon these and those ends. We have hereupon besought Him of favor and blessing. Now if the Lord shall please to hear us, and bring us in peace to the place we desire, then hath He ratified this covenant and sealed our commission,...."

Winthrop made the case that the Puritans were in a covenant relationship with God and they saw this new land as the New Jerusalem of the Bible. This sermon shows that the Puritans believed that they were the Israelites mentioned in Jeremiah 31 - 31 through 34 that entered into a covenant with God for a monumental undertaking. In short, the Puritans swallowed up the Pilgrims who held that same basic presupposition and the rest is history. For more information on that aspect, see this:

(Such groups have hijacked the benign religious concept of Anglo-Israelism, (also known as British-Israelism). The latter teach that the British (and by extension Americans, Canadians, and others) are the spiritual and literal descendants of the 10 lost tribes of ancient Israel. After the invasion of the Northern kingdom of Israel, the Assyrians scattered the indigenous population. They resettled in the Caucasus Mountains, and later drifted into Europe. The Christian Identity movement extended that theory and generated their own profoundly racist doctrine. They believe that the white race (or the "Aryan peoples" or "White Anglo Saxon Protestants", or the "British Peoples", or "White Americans") represent God's chosen people, as mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). They have taken these beliefs in an extreme direction to justify their hatred of Blacks, Jews, homosexuals and communists. )

CHRISTIAN IDENTITY MOVEMENT

The Christian Identity Movement

www.religioustolerance.org

I'm leaving out a lot of history lest this quick glance back at history becomes too lengthy. But, let's fast forward to the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration of Independence states:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Right away, one would think this is the liberals dream of an integrated America; however, you read the Declaration of Independence a little closer and you see language like "the ravages of the savages" and there is no mistake WHO that document was intended to represent. We have Rights being bestowed upon us by a Creator; we read of a firm reliance on Divine Providence (language that is synonymous with a Christian God.) In any event, the Declaration of Independence lays out specific reasons we went to war. And so, the basic points I want to make in this short synopsis:

1) America was founded by whites who came here with little more than the shirts on their back to build a "shining city on a hill"

2) America's first governing document was for the advancement, protection, and furtherance of the Christian faith, NOT as a theocracy, but a land where colonists would seek religious Liberty

3) Just as any other people, the white Christians who were building their idea of a Great Nation, sought the Right of self determination. Insofar as the taking of land, they were guided by the prevailing law of Right of Conquest. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing, that is the basis by which the colonists took America from uncivilized people and built a nation on the land they contend that God had preordained them to have in order to establish this New Jerusalem wherein all the nations of the earth would be blessed.

Again:

(Such groups have hijacked the benign religious concept of Anglo-Israelism, (also known as British-Israelism). The latter teach that the British (and by extension Americans, Canadians, and others) are the spiritual and literal descendants of the 10 lost tribes of ancient Israel. After the invasion of the Northern kingdom of Israel, the Assyrians scattered the indigenous population. They resettled in the Caucasus Mountains, and later drifted into Europe. The Christian Identity movement extended that theory and generated their own profoundly racist doctrine. They believe that the white race (or the "Aryan peoples" or "White Anglo Saxon Protestants", or the "British Peoples", or "White Americans") represent God's chosen people, as mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). They have taken these beliefs in an extreme direction to justify their hatred of Blacks, Jews, homosexuals and communists. )

The problem with your stupid lies is that church doctrine was established before Anglo Israelism - which is NOT the same as British Israelism (any more than Catholicism is the same as Protestantism.) What the first colonists believed is a matter of public record; I've submitted one sermon to prove you are a pathological liar and there is nothing "evil" in the doctrine.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Because almost every single person I have ever encountered in a position of authority, has abused that authority at least some of the time.
And I don't buy his act; he hides his intentions behind reams of information, much of which is nothing but biased bullshit, but honestly it wouldn't matter if it was all true, because it's just noise.... it's a distraction.
His behavior is just like that of every predator I have ever encountered, distract and deflect while maneuvering to a position of advantage, and then overwhelm the victim when they are not expecting it.
You deal with that by refusing to pay attention to their diversions and telling them to back the fuck off. And if they don't, then your fears about their intentions are now confirmed, aren't they?
So go ahead and hurt them with a clear conscience.

Is it not exhausting living your life in this manner?

 

[OldLady]

that is the basis by which the colonists took America from uncivilized people and built a nation on the land they contend that God had preordained them to have in order to establish this New Jerusalem wherein all the nations of the earth would be blessed.

Ah hah! That's where you're seeing a tie in. I wondered though at that comment, since it didn't include the Native American nations or the African nations from whence the slaves were sold.
Establish a New Jerusalem.

Interesting.

 

[OldLady]

Slow down and explain this.

Porter Rockwell said:
the REAL INTENT of the 14th Amendment was to nullify the Bill of Rights and abolish unalienable Rights, reducing all Americans to the status of a government slave,

Porter Rockwell , I would like an explanation for your comment.

 

[freyasman]

I honestly think you're projecting how you would behave onto IM2. And you know why I say this? I've always been a worker never part of management but a set of circumstances placed me in a mangement position temporarily, for a short term project.

I hired two male developers to build out the new system I designed, one was white and the other Armenian, both really smart guys who were completely competent and even though I treated them as my equals and not subordinates, while things seemed to go well in the beginning, they started doing things that essentially begin to sabotage the project, including telling me that work had been completed only to discover once I was out of the office and on the other side of the country, that no it hadn't been completed and I couldn't continue with my portion of the project because of this. Oh and telling me no, they weren't going to do the things I asked of them (I was their supervisor).

Long story short, one of them managed to get himself hired on with the company and took over the project while the other contractor was let go. My project ended while I was out on temporary leave but then my former subordinate who was now the project lead extended an invitation for me to come back and interview for my old job only this time I would have been his subordinate instead of his supervisor and there would have been at least a $20/hr reduction in pay. I interviewed and told him I could not work at the reduced pay he was offering but he hired someone else even after telling me I was the person most qualified for the job.

This guy is the kind of person you're accusing IM2 of being and IM2 has shown nothing that indicates he is scheming and manipulative like my former subordinate was. In fact I was working another contract where my contract instead of expiring was extended six more months and I was given sole responsibility for the support of one of their legacy databases. One of the full time team members threw a temper tantrum that was so rediculous that he threatened to resign if they didn't take the project from me and give it to him. He actually turned in his resignation letter before they gave in to his demands and let me go. White guy.

And I won't even go into Uncle's Sam's rejects that I gave opportunites to who apprently resented me having authority over them. One black one white.

So in my opinion, I have a very level view of the grievances being put forth about black people and who we are and what we're not (all that) and how uneducated and lazy, etc. we allegedly are. And I'm not an exception, and neither are IM2, KatSteve or Asclepias. In fact most black people are not living in poverty or the inner city or are the scourge of society and criminals that you all paint us as.

Oh, and one last thing. I wanted to hire a female developer because we had a candidate who was exactly what I was looking for and had the software experience for the existing system but I was overruled.

I never sought power or authority; it was one of the reasons I didn't make more rank in the Army. The ones who did, didn't trust anyone who wasn't motivated by the same thing they were.
I know what that looks like..... I especially know what it looks like when they are hiding it.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Oh, I had no idea, I was pretty sure this was common knowledge, well maybe not exactly "common" knowledge but that you all knew about it but just pretended not to. I'll post something for you, you might particularly find what the Navy thought of black men interesting. I know that's not the founders but we'll get to that eventually.

Oh and by the way, you might want to check with Porter Rockwell because he knows that the whites of the day intended for the United States to be for white people and their descendents only and for the black race to be subservient to them in perpetuity. They may have had a better argument if they hadn't needed all of that free black labor to help build their dream nation and they still did a pretty devastating number on every who wasn't white.

And a commentary regarding the Tuskegee Airmen

Airman Coleman Young, later the first African-American mayor of Detroit, told journalist Studs Terkel about the process:

"They made the standards so high, we actually became an elite group. We were screened and super-screened. We were unquestionably the brightest and most physically fit young blacks in the country. We were super-better because of the irrational laws of Jim Crow. You can't bring that many intelligent young people together and train 'em as fighting men and expect them to supinely roll over when you try to fuck over 'em, right? (Laughs.)[12]"

Tuskegee Airmen - Wikipedia