America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/op

[Listening]

Here is your problem. I never said health care was in the Constitution. So there is no debate. Do I have to say it is in the Constitution to satisfy your debating rules?

O.K. there is no debate.

We agree that Health Care can't be found in the constitution.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Unkotare hates not being in the mainstream.

Let's see if he spams again.

I know, son, that you hate being told you are not in the mainstream, but, sorry, you are not, and your silly politics only hurt the country.

Son, understand this: we mainstream Republicans don't care what you guys think. We will do what we know is best in saving the party from you and your comrades. That is simply it. That discussion is done.

Definately, definately mainstream. Mainsteam. Yeah. Of course I'm a very good driiiiiiver. Mainstream. Yeah. Mainstream. Uh-oh! Time for Wapner!

Shut the **** up you partisan ******* hack.

 

[JakeStarkey]

yawn

Unkotare hates not being in the mainstream.

Let's see if he spams again.

Definately, definately mainstream. Mainsteam. Yeah. Of course I'm a very good driiiiiiver. Mainstream. Yeah. Mainstream. Uh-oh! Time for Wapner!

Shut the **** up you partisan ******* hack.

 

[JoeNormal]

**** off loser. When someone pays you to create something, that new thing created belongs to the one signing the paycheck. You can complain about the arrangements you enter all you want. That is typically what losers do. Or, you could discover your balls, find the funding, and put together for yourself all the things necessary to develop your technologies, things that previously were provided for you.

And then you would realize just how futile and juvenile your past whining was.

There's a wide latitude in what engineers are expected to do. Where I've exceeded expectations, I might expect to be reasonably rewarded for that initiative. That's where Fuckwads like you come in. I'll bet you're one of the guys whose career path has followed a succession of asses kissed.

Actually, I'm one of those you hate, the ones that start businesses. And I have had many employees just like you, that felt entitled to more than what we agreed they should be compensated.

Perhaps your reasonable reward was in keeping your job. Or perhaps your idea of exceeding expectations is one that is personal to you. I don't really giv a **** how you have put yourself in a position of whining about not making what you think you are worth. I'm guessing your less of a stellar employee than you think. And in any event-you are an employee. Not an owner. You get a guaranteed paycheck. You want more than that? Do something more than whine about receiving a paycheck. Take the same risks your employer takes. Absorb the costs of starting up. Live with uncertainty for a while during times when your employees are taking home more than you. But for your own sake, man up and quit the ******* whining. You agreed to your arrangement. Honor your decisions.

Holy shit dude, did you graduate from the eighth grade? Your grammar would say no. Well never mind that, you've found a home with the illiterates of the tea party. Mygawd, if ever there was a place where the dumb ***** of the world could congregate and find a place to prosper, it would be here. Congratulations for finding a home!

 

[Steelplate]

No...the military is already in there. But you know that, don't you? The general welfare of the country is an add on that encompasses everything that promotes the strength of the country as a whole that is not otherwise covered, and as the other poster noted...Madison's view on the clause is not the only view, and in fact, is one that has been pretty much called bullshit. Just because you happen to agree with it does not mean you get to define it.

Madison is considered the Father of The Constitution. His view carries some weight. Sorry to break it to you. That Hamilton turned out to be two faced really doesn't matter. That is the start of the discussion. There is no "definition" that is arbitrary here.

What is arbitrary is the way it has been treated.

Just because you need it to justify your desire for Federal Health Insurance does not that it actually exists.

When you have people paying 12k off the top of their wages into an ever more expensive health care system...when 62% of all bankruptcies are caused by medical bills, when just about all of our global competitors have a universal health care system, and the vast majority of our citizens are suffering because of it....yeah.....it's a General Welfare issue.

Wishful thinking.

Get back to me when you have an argument, kid.

No, you get back to me when you have something more than blind AM radio driven Tea Party rhetoric.

 

[Avatar4321]

No, you get back to me when you have something more than blind AM radio driven Tea Party rhetoric.

In other words, you dont know where to begin countering what he said.

 

[Avatar4321]

There's a wide latitude in what engineers are expected to do. Where I've exceeded expectations, I might expect to be reasonably rewarded for that initiative. That's where Fuckwads like you come in. I'll bet you're one of the guys whose career path has followed a succession of asses kissed.

Actually, I'm one of those you hate, the ones that start businesses. And I have had many employees just like you, that felt entitled to more than what we agreed they should be compensated.

Perhaps your reasonable reward was in keeping your job. Or perhaps your idea of exceeding expectations is one that is personal to you. I don't really giv a **** how you have put yourself in a position of whining about not making what you think you are worth. I'm guessing your less of a stellar employee than you think. And in any event-you are an employee. Not an owner. You get a guaranteed paycheck. You want more than that? Do something more than whine about receiving a paycheck. Take the same risks your employer takes. Absorb the costs of starting up. Live with uncertainty for a while during times when your employees are taking home more than you. But for your own sake, man up and quit the ******* whining. You agreed to your arrangement. Honor your decisions.

Holy shit dude, did you graduate from the eighth grade? Your grammar would say no. Well never mind that, you've found a home with the illiterates of the tea party. Mygawd, if ever there was a place where the dumb ***** of the world could congregate and find a place to prosper, it would be here. Congratulations for finding a home!

It must really annoy you to realize that people you consider illiterate (despite obvious evidence that they aren't) make more money than you do and have had success providing real benefits to the community.

BTW your grammar isn't really top of the line either. Big deal. Grammar exists to help us communicate. It's obvious what he was saying regardless of any grammar errors, just like it's obvious what you were saying regardless of your own. The fact that you are using it as justification to avoid the issues tells observers that you can't support your position or even attempt reasonable dialogue.

If your position is correct, you should be able to provide a way to defend it, though you are free to hold your position regardless of whether you can or not. But if that's the case, just admit it. Pretending that your position is superior when you wont even articulate it is ridiculous. It's a position to take when you are just trying to lie to yourself and convince yourself that you're right.

Personally, I've found that it's better to reevaluate my positions if I cannot explain my positions. At least, I try to get more information. It seems to work well.

 

[Avatar4321]

"Perhaps your reasonable reward was in keeping your job. Or perhaps your idea of exceeding expectations is one that is personal to you. I don't really giv a **** how you have put yourself in a position of whining about not making what you think you are worth. I'm guessing your less of a stellar employee than you think. And in any event-you are an employee. Not an owner. You get a guaranteed paycheck. You want more than that? Do something more than whine about receiving a paycheck. Take the same risks your employer takes. Absorb the costs of starting up. Live with uncertainty for a while during times when your employees are taking home more than you. But for your own sake, man up and quit the ******* whining. You agreed to your arrangement. Honor your decisions. "

Heres what you do. You make yourself more valuable and get out of your job that you are in. Sign your contract, then simply dont show up for your current job. Tell your boss to stick it. Use those words. You owe your boss nothing. Zero. Not a notice of quitting. See ya bye. I've done it 3 times in my life and those 3 days were some of the most treasured days of my life. The look on the bosses face, priceless. But thats what they had coming. Try it. Its pure elation.

You treasure the days you can tell off the people who employed you? May I suggest trying new experiences? There are many, many, better things in life.

Im sure your former bosses were quite happy when you told them to "stick it". Much easier to have someone quit than to fire them for not showing up to work.

 

[Bfgrn]

The Constitution is about the rule of law.

It is not about morals. You don't address moral obligations in law...why would you want to when you don't want religion mentioned anywhere ?

You want to discuss Health Care as a moral question, I am good with that. As I stated above, I think we do have an issue with health care availability and I blame the GOP in part. But, in no way do I believe health care is a right.

Unless the premature death of thousands of Americans every year who don't have access to affordable health care is ok with you?

Please stop making me laugh.

I hope you are not referencing the asswipe Harvard study.

Laws are generally based on morals. The existence of laws that serve to defend basic moral values--such as laws against murder, rape, malicious defamation of character, fraud, bribery, etc. --prove that the two can work together.

One way to avoid confronting the moral issue of health care is to dismiss anything that would cause you to question your own morality.

By dismissing the Harvard study, you are willfully doing that.

If you dispute the numbers, let's cut it in half. Are you OK with 22,500 premature deaths of Americans every year who don't have access to affordable health care?

 

[Claudette]

I've been cruising message boards for a decade and NEVER have I run across such an elaborate misconception of markets, innovation, risk capital, and technology all in one place. Congrats. Let's blow this thing up...

Sooo, seeing that we have had it your way for a long ass time, when do we get to try something else?

BTW, great job at not answering the question.

Wealthy people create wealth and jobs in many different ways. Personal wealth allows people to invest in ideas they like, or just think will be profitable, or even just for fun... That creates jobs and wealth.

Another way wealthy people create more wealth and jobs is by buying things that interest them, like one of a kind custom boats, cars, planes, musical interments, houses and so on... Things that a company would never make, things a company could never afford to push their limits on because there would otherwise be no profit in doing so and the overhead would kill that project.

The greatest example of wealthy people helping the US and world is in Healthcare, where rich people in America are by definition the reason why all other countries on planet earth are not currently using HC "solutions" that of a third world country of today. Wealthy people can afford to buy HC products that later become affordable by the middle class and lastly Governments around the world, after our poor have access to them. The US still produces something like 40% of the worlds new medicines and that number used to be much higher, before we became a welfare state. Lucky for all the other countries in the world that creating almost all meaningful drugs and surgeries ever discovered is not placed on their shoulders, the cost that our wealthy pay for development would have bankrupted all of these countries overnight, meaning it would have never been discovered.

The US, through wealthy people allows industries to create prototypes, build dreams and in the process offer the chance for others to become wealthy. Almost everything you own was once completely unaffordable by you, do you ever wonder how you own a TV that once would have costed you 10 thousand dollars but now get it for 500$? Or a phone that can play games, has voice recognition, has a HD of 100gig and plays movies in 3D? Here is a guess, it was not created by people on welfare for other people on welfare.

Wealthy people do not "create jobs". Jobs become necessary to fill when people become interested in buying a product.

Nope.. A THOUSAND people can SAY "Gee it would be nice if I had a map in my car that guided me exactly to my destination". But only a HANDFUL will have the talent, conviction, and risk tolerance to DO anything about it. To START -- you determine tech feasibility, competition, costing, AND as another component "market acceptance". How many can I sell? That's just part of the initial due diligience. Face it Lefty, YOU DON'T KNOW what kind of cardiac lab equipment you need. YOU DON'T KNOW what kind of Christmas toy is gonna be the rage this year.



You're jumping the gun here.. By a lot.. The first thing you have to do is find a champion to take the RISK of developing said product. NOBODY gets hired til the funding is in place. SOMEBODY has to beg and plead the case to Venture or Angel Capital or your Father in Law to get things rolling. Those would be those pesky evil INVESTORS you say have no bearing on the market.



THis USED to be the case when manufacturing required a lot a labor. Today, demand for a product just means more ships coming into LA from Asia and want ads in the ShenZhen Times.



Really? You got a janitor that can manage the 28 business units of Caterpillar and the 12 factories that they have worldwide employing 160,000 people? They make everything from shoes to giant 80 ton crawlers. You think Jane in reception is up to task of funding that? Want to have employees pay based on cash flow?

Without the investors -- there is no Caterpillar.



Correct -- you get that part. Make sure you understand -- there are gonna be far less jobs for the UNTALENTED in the future.



Just teachers? Like all Ethnic Studies grads? No -- what education is required is DICTATED by the market. ((If you objective is to have your students prosper -- otherwise, any ole teacher will do)) The talent that THIS MARKET needs is lacking in the STEM (science, tech, engineering, and math) fields. Those are the areas that LEAD innovation and job recovery. Other jobs follow.

In addition, in order to transport materials efficiently, etc, there needs to be a viable infrastructure in place. Roads need to be there, railroads, airports, etc etc.

Public Safety is needed to protect the company's assets, as well as firemen, insurance brokers, etc, etc.

All of these things are paid for by the taxpayers. All the taxpayers.

Not all the taxpayers pay EQUALLY however. And as witnessed by the dozen cities and counties at the edge of bankruptcy right now --
Remove the folks who DO pay -- and all that public service isn't neccessary anymore.
Taxpayers also can't afford to pay for TWICE that amount of public service. One retired road worker for every working one. With folks retiring at 80% at age 55.. THUS the point of the OP...

And all of these jobs are performed by "regular Joe" middle class and poor workers.

Therefore, to call investors "the job creators" is absurd.

Nope.. Regular joes play a role. A supporting role. They go home at 5PM, never have to spend their weekends flying and spending hotel time (unpaid). THey don't manage thousands of people and direct Millions of dollars everyday. THey don't even have to understand the thingamabob that they put the whoodidoodle on.

They don't have to 2nd mortgage their house to build their dream product. They don't have to answer to the folks they borrowed MIILLLIONS from to get the product made. They don't have to anticipate changes in the competition, the market, the LAW, or worry about hurting anyone with their product. If regular Joe wants to EMPLOY PEOPLE --- they better under the process.. And hopefully understand it a whole lot better than you do...

Great post and spot on.

The investor is the one taking the risk. If it succeeds he and the other investors reap the benefits. They also create the jobs to make that investment come alive.

A poor person never hired anyone. Common sense 101.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Job growth depends on market need (consumer), worker and boss (skills and management), and capital (investor).

Period.

 

[jack113]

Job growth depends on market need (consumer), worker and boss (skills and management), and capital (investor).

Period.

Job creation depends on a companies need to expand due to consumer buying.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Consumer demand precedes anything else. R & D, organization and management, labor, and development of transportation and communication infrastructure follow.

Job growth depends on market need (consumer), worker and boss (skills and management), and capital (investor).

Period.

Job creation depends on a companies need to expand due to consumer buying.

 

[Pho_King]

There's a wide latitude in what engineers are expected to do. Where I've exceeded expectations, I might expect to be reasonably rewarded for that initiative. That's where Fuckwads like you come in. I'll bet you're one of the guys whose career path has followed a succession of asses kissed.

Actually, I'm one of those you hate, the ones that start businesses. And I have had many employees just like you, that felt entitled to more than what we agreed they should be compensated.

Perhaps your reasonable reward was in keeping your job. Or perhaps your idea of exceeding expectations is one that is personal to you. I don't really giv a **** how you have put yourself in a position of whining about not making what you think you are worth. I'm guessing your less of a stellar employee than you think. And in any event-you are an employee. Not an owner. You get a guaranteed paycheck. You want more than that? Do something more than whine about receiving a paycheck. Take the same risks your employer takes. Absorb the costs of starting up. Live with uncertainty for a while during times when your employees are taking home more than you. But for your own sake, man up and quit the ******* whining. You agreed to your arrangement. Honor your decisions.

Holy shit dude, did you graduate from the eighth grade? Your grammar would say no. Well never mind that, you've found a home with the illiterates of the tea party. Mygawd, if ever there was a place where the dumb ***** of the world could congregate and find a place to prosper, it would be here. Congratulations for finding a home!

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that I am as you describe-a dumb ****. And you are as you describe yourself-a stellar underpaid employee. There are three glaring differences between us. First, you clearly possess a superior intellect. Second, Even as a dumb ****, I have managed to find a station in life where I am quite happy with my position. Third, I don't find excuses for not attaining the success I aspire to.


So let's recap. You are an engineer with a brilliance nobody above you recognizes, and are thus relegated to a positioning life that is beneath your worth. Your problems are not internal-they are the result of lesser men with more success keeping you down. I am a dumb **** with an eighth grade education. Yet, in spite of my clear stupidity, I have attained a position that I am happy with. I meet more successful people all the time. And in them I see nothing but opportunity.

Your superior intellect does not seem to be serving you nearly as well as my eighth grade education.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Pho_king's assumptions are in error, because they cannot be logically based on the information given. He spins a silliness of make believe.

In the meantime, Tea Parties are for little girls who have imaginary friends.

Actually, I'm one of those you hate, the ones that start businesses. And I have had many employees just like you, that felt entitled to more than what we agreed they should be compensated.

Perhaps your reasonable reward was in keeping your job. Or perhaps your idea of exceeding expectations is one that is personal to you. I don't really giv a **** how you have put yourself in a position of whining about not making what you think you are worth. I'm guessing your less of a stellar employee than you think. And in any event-you are an employee. Not an owner. You get a guaranteed paycheck. You want more than that? Do something more than whine about receiving a paycheck. Take the same risks your employer takes. Absorb the costs of starting up. Live with uncertainty for a while during times when your employees are taking home more than you. But for your own sake, man up and quit the ******* whining. You agreed to your arrangement. Honor your decisions.

Holy shit dude, did you graduate from the eighth grade? Your grammar would say no. Well never mind that, you've found a home with the illiterates of the tea party. Mygawd, if ever there was a place where the dumb ***** of the world could congregate and find a place to prosper, it would be here. Congratulations for finding a home!

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that I am as you describe-a dumb ****. And you are as you describe yourself-a stellar underpaid employee. There are three glaring differences between us. First, you clearly possess a superior intellect. Second, Even as a dumb ****, I have managed to find a station in life where I am quite happy with my position. Third, I don't find excuses for not attaining the success I aspire to.


So let's recap. You are an engineer with a brilliance nobody above you recognizes, and are thus relegated to a positioning life that is beneath your worth. Your problems are not internal-they are the result of lesser men with more success keeping you down. I am a dumb **** with an eighth grade education. Yet, in spite of my clear stupidity, I have attained a position that I am happy with. I meet more successful people all the time. And in them I see nothing but opportunity.

Your superior intellect does not seem to be serving you nearly as well as my eighth grade education.

 

[Pho_King]

Pho_king's assumptions are in error, because they cannot be logically based on the information given. He spins a silliness of make believe.

In the meantime, Tea Parties are for little girls who have imaginary friends.

Holy shit dude, did you graduate from the eighth grade? Your grammar would say no. Well never mind that, you've found a home with the illiterates of the tea party. Mygawd, if ever there was a place where the dumb ***** of the world could congregate and find a place to prosper, it would be here. Congratulations for finding a home!

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that I am as you describe-a dumb ****. And you are as you describe yourself-a stellar underpaid employee. There are three glaring differences between us. First, you clearly possess a superior intellect. Second, Even as a dumb ****, I have managed to find a station in life where I am quite happy with my position. Third, I don't find excuses for not attaining the success I aspire to.


So let's recap. You are an engineer with a brilliance nobody above you recognizes, and are thus relegated to a positioning life that is beneath your worth. Your problems are not internal-they are the result of lesser men with more success keeping you down. I am a dumb **** with an eighth grade education. Yet, in spite of my clear stupidity, I have attained a position that I am happy with. I meet more successful people all the time. And in them I see nothing but opportunity.

Your superior intellect does not seem to be serving you nearly as well as my eighth grade education.

Shut up, *****. Nobody wants to read your whines either.

 

[paulitician]

The Takers are never gonna stop taking. But what happens when the Makers stop making? See, that's when the real problems will begin. Third World misery and chaos, here we come.

 

[flacaltenn]

Consumer demand precedes anything else. R & D, organization and management, labor, and development of transportation and communication infrastructure follow.

Job growth depends on market need (consumer), worker and boss (skills and management), and capital (investor).

Period.

Job creation depends on a companies need to expand due to consumer buying.

Hey Jakey -- How did China become a superpower in 20 years? Did they hand out $200 to the consumers with the demand? Did they practice deficit spending to STIMULATE the economy? NO -- There was a HUGE influx of FOREIGN CAPITAL.. Not designed to satisfy the DEMANDS of the Chinese consumers -- but to serve the interests of the foreign investors. Only now --- that they have BUILT and expanded their economy -- does their needs even matter..

Same with restarting and EXPANDING any economy.. Take your adamant foot-stomping "PERIODS" with a Midol and stuff it..

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

\

Over the past century America’s private sector has been the source of productivity, innovation, creativity, and growth–and gave us the iPhone and iPad.

I don't even own an iPhone or an iPad.

What gave us quantum physics?

And you know its funny, you never hear pharmaceuticals complaining about all the publicly funded research they take advantage of.

But go ahead - start a war. I'll take a publicly funded weapon - the hydrogen bomb - over your iPhone any day.

 

[gallantwarrior]

I don't give a crap about sports heroes. It's just not my thing. I love good movies and good music but I wouldn't walk across the street to see certain movie stars or hip hop guys. Why don't I care what they make? Because i can choose to patronize their work or not. I don't have that power with much of the corporate world. Corporations have become so intertwined that I have no idea who I'm supporting.

Now part B. I'm a design engineer who's created many patentable and profitable technologies in my career. I've developed some real contempt for the guys at the top who decide how to divide the spoils of my work while tossing me some small crumbs for my trouble.

Why don't you try developing your patentable and profitable technologies yourself? Otherwise, you sell yourself cheaply.

Most engineers are locked down pretty tightly. At some point, I might start doing my own thing again. It just takes a lot for a lone wolf to wear all the hats it takes to get a tech company off the ground.

And yet you would support the camp that insists that anyone who has made their own fortune by their wits, skills, and sweat equity are evil because they "take" so much from the middle class and the poor.