America was founded as an enlightened multicultural Nation

[ding]

If you are trying to convert our beloved rational desist key revolutionaries, founders and framers into orthodox mainstream Christian you will always fail.

I’m not. Show me where I said I was.

although most of the signers of our founding documents were Christians. Do you agree with that?

And do you agree that all of them believed in natural law?

 

[BreezeWood]

.
your obsession diminishes your accountability - when diverting it to an unsubstantiated entity - christianity. the religion of antiquity is secular - the same as the founding fathers in witting the u s constitution for the most practical and beneficial reasons for everyone involved.


says a lot about your motivation, winner. - from another thread but may as well follow you to this one.

And yet all founding fathers believed our rights were granted to us for no other reason than we are God’s creatures and that those rights are contingent upon us meeting our duties and obligations to God.

.

your obsession diminishes your accountability - when diverting it to an unsubstantiated entity - christianity. the religion of antiquity is secular - the same as the founding fathers in witting the u s constitution for the most practical and beneficial reasons for everyone involved.

And yet all founding fathers believed our rights were granted to us for no other reason than we are God’s creatures and that those rights are contingent upon us meeting our duties and obligations to God

they left your religion, christianity out of the constitution for the very reasons you give - most believed in the grater good over evil - bing.

Does it bother you that all of the founding fathers believed that our rights are contingent upon our meeting our duties and obligations to God?

.

Does it bother you that all of the founding fathers believed that our rights are contingent upon our meeting our duties and obligations to God?

you keep not using your favorite word - they too knew christianity was a deviant 4th century aberration that's why they left your religion out of the u s constitution.

Prove it.

.

Prove it.

Exactly. It shouldn’t. But it seems that it does for BW and GeorgeW.

you keep not using your favorite word - they too knew christianity was a deviant 4th century aberration that's why they left your religion out of the u s constitution.

it's been proven to you, and yes it does matter their intent not to have a duplicitous religion encroach on their secular, progressive gov't for the people and not religious zealots - bing.

 

[ding]

And yet all founding fathers believed our rights were granted to us for no other reason than we are God’s creatures and that those rights are contingent upon us meeting our duties and obligations to God.

.

your obsession diminishes your accountability - when diverting it to an unsubstantiated entity - christianity. the religion of antiquity is secular - the same as the founding fathers in witting the u s constitution for the most practical and beneficial reasons for everyone involved.

And yet all founding fathers believed our rights were granted to us for no other reason than we are God’s creatures and that those rights are contingent upon us meeting our duties and obligations to God

they left your religion, christianity out of the constitution for the very reasons you give - most believed in the grater good over evil - bing.

Does it bother you that all of the founding fathers believed that our rights are contingent upon our meeting our duties and obligations to God?

.

Does it bother you that all of the founding fathers believed that our rights are contingent upon our meeting our duties and obligations to God?

you keep not using your favorite word - they too knew christianity was a deviant 4th century aberration that's why they left your religion out of the u s constitution.

Prove it.

.

Prove it.

Exactly. It shouldn’t. But it seems that it does for BW and GeorgeW.

you keep not using your favorite word - they too knew christianity was a deviant 4th century aberration that's why they left your religion out of the u s constitution.

it's been proven to you, and yes it does matter their intent not to have a duplicitous religion encroach on their secular, progressive gov't for the people and not religious zealots - bing.

No. It hasn’t.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#144 reply to #141

I’m not. Show me where I said I was.

Never said you said it. I said if you are trying to convert rational deists at the founding into Christians you will fail. And when you admit that all the founders/framers were not Christians you fail as well. So you are failing to convince anyone, not a Christian Nationalist, that America was founded as a Christian Nation.


#144 reply to #141

although most of the signers of our founding documents were Christians. Do you agree with that?

Sure I agree with that. Because the Christians left their religion in the coat room when they entered the hall where they were framing the Constitution. It’s plain as day that the theists/rationalists kept all the fractious Protestant Christian religiosity of the day out of the Federal Constitution.

 

[BreezeWood]

.
they left your religion, christianity out of the constitution for the very reasons you give - most believed in the grater good over evil - bing.

Does it bother you that all of the founding fathers believed that our rights are contingent upon our meeting our duties and obligations to God?

.

Does it bother you that all of the founding fathers believed that our rights are contingent upon our meeting our duties and obligations to God?

you keep not using your favorite word - they too knew christianity was a deviant 4th century aberration that's why they left your religion out of the u s constitution.

Prove it.

.

Prove it.

Exactly. It shouldn’t. But it seems that it does for BW and GeorgeW.

you keep not using your favorite word - they too knew christianity was a deviant 4th century aberration that's why they left your religion out of the u s constitution.

it's been proven to you, and yes it does matter their intent not to have a duplicitous religion encroach on their secular, progressive gov't for the people and not religious zealots - bing.

No. It hasn’t.

.

No. It hasn’t.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

 

[ding]

Does it bother you that all of the founding fathers believed that our rights are contingent upon our meeting our duties and obligations to God?

.

Does it bother you that all of the founding fathers believed that our rights are contingent upon our meeting our duties and obligations to God?

you keep not using your favorite word - they too knew christianity was a deviant 4th century aberration that's why they left your religion out of the u s constitution.

Prove it.

.

Prove it.

Exactly. It shouldn’t. But it seems that it does for BW and GeorgeW.

you keep not using your favorite word - they too knew christianity was a deviant 4th century aberration that's why they left your religion out of the u s constitution.

it's been proven to you, and yes it does matter their intent not to have a duplicitous religion encroach on their secular, progressive gov't for the people and not religious zealots - bing.

No. It hasn’t.

.

No. It hasn’t.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

I’ve already corrected you enough times.

 

[BreezeWood]

.
you keep not using your favorite word - they too knew christianity was a deviant 4th century aberration that's why they left your religion out of the u s constitution.

Prove it.

.

Prove it.

Exactly. It shouldn’t. But it seems that it does for BW and GeorgeW.

you keep not using your favorite word - they too knew christianity was a deviant 4th century aberration that's why they left your religion out of the u s constitution.

it's been proven to you, and yes it does matter their intent not to have a duplicitous religion encroach on their secular, progressive gov't for the people and not religious zealots - bing.

No. It hasn’t.

.

No. It hasn’t.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

I’ve already corrected you enough times.

.

I’ve already corrected you enough times.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

corrected what ...

 

[ding]

Prove it.

.

Prove it.

Exactly. It shouldn’t. But it seems that it does for BW and GeorgeW.

you keep not using your favorite word - they too knew christianity was a deviant 4th century aberration that's why they left your religion out of the u s constitution.

it's been proven to you, and yes it does matter their intent not to have a duplicitous religion encroach on their secular, progressive gov't for the people and not religious zealots - bing.

No. It hasn’t.

.

No. It hasn’t.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

I’ve already corrected you enough times.

.

I’ve already corrected you enough times.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

corrected what ...

Everything

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#149 reply to #107.
In Post #97 you told the truth about what the members of the Virginia convention said:

They contended that it was because of "the duty which we owe to our Creator," that "all men have an equal, natural and unalienable right to the free exercise of religion according to the dictates of conscience."

. That’s right. You wrote the exact case why America was not founded as a Christian Nation.

"all men have an equal, natural and unalienable right to the free exercise of religion according to the dictates of conscience."
​

The framers and signers of the US Constitution apparently agreed that new citizens of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA have a natural God given awareness of morality; a sense of right and wrong that urges them individually to act morally. The dictates of each citizens’ conscience enables them and all that were to follow - to freely exercise a religion of their choosing. A religion unhindered by the tyranny of a religious majority.

In other words the new enlightened Nation was founded on a new order with regard to religion. The new nation has none. No favorite. None rejected if adherents and non-adherents abided by the laws and respected the dictates of conscience of their countrymen.

Not a Christian Nation at all.

But I told you much of this in Post #104:

. You are right, the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says that everyone in the United States has the right according to the dictates of their conscience to practice his or her own religion, or no religion at all.

Therefore in the Christian dominated culture in which the Constitution was written, every citizen was established to be free to practice Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism or most importantly no religion at all.

That is why there is no way you should ever say that America was founded as a Christian Nation unless you choose to ignore the Constitution of the United States of America.

I guess you didn’t read past the words ‘Christian dominated culture’... because Your #107 reply to #104 was quite obtuse on your part:

Christian dominated culture says it all.

that is this country’s heritage.

Whaddayamean - Christian dominated culture says it all? Why are you so slow?

Lets repeat: “in the Christian dominated culture in which the Constitution was written, every citizen was established to be free to practice Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism or most importantly no religion at all. ”

That is a multicultural NATION no a Christian NATION.

 

[Hollie]

#149 reply to #107.
In Post #97 you told the truth about what the members of the Virginia convention said:

They contended that it was because of "the duty which we owe to our Creator," that "all men have an equal, natural and unalienable right to the free exercise of religion according to the dictates of conscience."

. That’s right. You wrote the exact case why America was not founded as a Christian Nation.

"all men have an equal, natural and unalienable right to the free exercise of religion according to the dictates of conscience."
​

The framers and signers of the US Constitution apparently agreed that new citizens of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA have a natural God given awareness of morality; a sense of right and wrong that urges them individually to act morally. The dictates of each citizens’ conscience enables them and all that were to follow - to freely exercise a religion of their choosing. A religion unhindered by the tyranny of a religious majority.

In other words the new enlightened Nation was founded on a new order with regard to religion. The new nation has none. No favorite. None rejected if adherents and non-adherents abided by the laws and respected the dictates of conscience of their countrymen.

Not a Christian Nation at all.

But I told you much of this in Post #104:

. You are right, the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says that everyone in the United States has the right according to the dictates of their conscience to practice his or her own religion, or no religion at all.

Therefore in the Christian dominated culture in which the Constitution was written, every citizen was established to be free to practice Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism or most importantly no religion at all.

That is why there is no way you should ever say that America was founded as a Christian Nation unless you choose to ignore the Constitution of the United States of America.

I guess you didn’t read past the words ‘Christian dominated culture’... because Your #107 reply to #104 was quite obtuse on your part:

Christian dominated culture says it all.

that is this country’s heritage.

Whaddayamean - Christian dominated culture says it all? Why are you so slow?

Lets repeat: “in the Christian dominated culture in which the Constitution was written, every citizen was established to be free to practice Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism or most importantly no religion at all. ”

That is a multicultural NATION no a Christian NATION.

“Lets repeat: “in the Christian dominated culture in which the Constitution was written, every citizen was established to be free to practice Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism or most importantly no religion at all. ”

That is precisely true. The framers of the constitution were very clear about being neutral to any and all religious views. They were clear about government not meddling in religion. It's completely unnecessary for others to re-write the constitution in an attempt to impose their religious views.

The framers of the constitution had direct experience with the conditions in the original 13 colonies wherein the various sects, subsects and subdivisions of Christianity were at odds with one-another. In many respects, the original colonialists were models of Christian hate, intolerance and religious divisions.

The framers of the constitution knew all too well the totalitarian nature of religions which is why they specifically designed a constitution that forbid the government from endorsing or favoring any one religion and more importantly, required the government to be removed from decision making in ones personal choice of religion or no religion.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

151# reply to #150

The framers of the constitution knew all too well the totalitarian nature of religions which is why they specifically designed a constitution that forbid the government from endorsing or favoring any one religion and more importantly, required the government to be removed from decision making in ones personal choice of religion or no religion.

Thank you. Your addition to the conversation is most welcome and important.

BTW An informative column was posted just moments ago regarding the current Christian nationalist and Christian supremacist attacks on our liberal democratic institutions. Citing a recent speech by Trump’s rightwing Christian lapdog, Attorney General, Bill Barr, the entire topic of this thread is addressed.

Thouht you might find this to be quite interesting and informative:

William Barr promotes Christian tyranny in latest speech.

William Barr promotes Christian tyranny in latest speech

By Chrissy Stroop, Religion Dispatches - Commentary Published 10 hours ago on February 29,
​

An except from the beginning

“In typical Christian nationalist form, Barr quoted American Founding Father John Adams: “We have no government armed with the power which is capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.”

Asked to comment, Freedom From Religion Foundation’s Andrew Seidel, author of The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism is Un-American, maintained, “Barr is misreading Adams.” To substantiate the point, he observed, “Adams, like the other founders, thought religion and morality were two separate entities; Barr thinks they are one and the same. The founders thought religion could be a substitute for morality. We now know that they were wrong on this point.”
​

An except from the middle:

“Seidel’s work can also help us see that Barr is twisting Tocqueville in his attempt to marshal the nineteenth-century French observer of American democracy in support of his view that moral behavior is impossible without religion. A claim, by the way, that is entirely fact-free.”

​

And two excepts from the Conclusion:

“Like authoritarians, narcissists, and abusers of all kinds, Christian extremists seek to paint themselves as victims, and Barr’s speech is a prime example of this powerful rhetorical tactic. In it, the attorney general blames supposedly nefarious secularists for the contentious state of American politics when, in fact, data shows us that precisely the opposite is true—America’s polarization has been driven by our radicalized, mostly Christian, Right.“

“Trump’s toady of an attorney general may wax poetic about his fear of the potential tyranny of a secular majority, but he is transparently trying to promote Christian tyranny, only in the guise of “liberal democracy.” It doesn’t take much digging beneath the surface to see that Barr’s authoritarian approach to religion derives from a very dark view of human nature. Authentic supporters of democracy, by contrast, understand that despite our human limitations—which are quite real but not nearly so severe as those posited by the toxic doctrine of “original sin”—it’s possible to build a society around a shared social contract grounded in the simple recognition of our shared human condition, and on that basis to foster functional institutions and a healthy respect for pluralism.”
​

Trying to get Christian Nationalists to acquire the same healthy respect for pluralism and multiculturalism that matches that of our founding fathers.

Thanks again for your voice on this critical issue.

 

[BreezeWood]

.
it's been proven to you, and yes it does matter their intent not to have a duplicitous religion encroach on their secular, progressive gov't for the people and not religious zealots - bing.

No. It hasn’t.

.

No. It hasn’t.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

I’ve already corrected you enough times.

.

I’ve already corrected you enough times.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

corrected what ...

Everything

.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

Everything

that's not an explanation, bing its a word that says nothing at all - learn to contribute to a thread or learn how to stay away from them ... your choice.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Prove it.

.

Prove it.

Exactly. It shouldn’t. But it seems that it does for BW and GeorgeW.

you keep not using your favorite word - they too knew christianity was a deviant 4th century aberration that's why they left your religion out of the u s constitution.

it's been proven to you, and yes it does matter their intent not to have a duplicitous religion encroach on their secular, progressive gov't for the people and not religious zealots - bing.

No. It hasn’t.

.

No. It hasn’t.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

I’ve already corrected you enough times.

.

I’ve already corrected you enough times.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

corrected what ...

"Corrected what..."

"Everything"

In other words, ding could not answer that, if his life depended on it.

This is ding's MO. Every thread.

 

[ding]

.
it's been proven to you, and yes it does matter their intent not to have a duplicitous religion encroach on their secular, progressive gov't for the people and not religious zealots - bing.

No. It hasn’t.

.

No. It hasn’t.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

I’ve already corrected you enough times.

.

I’ve already corrected you enough times.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

corrected what ...

"Corrected what..."

"Everything"

In other words, ding could not answer that, if his life depended on it.

This is ding's MO. Every thread.

Anytime you are up for a debate in the bullring let me know.

 

[ding]

No. It hasn’t.

.

No. It hasn’t.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

I’ve already corrected you enough times.

.

I’ve already corrected you enough times.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

corrected what ...

Everything

.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

Everything

that's not an explanation, bing its a word that says nothing at all - learn to contribute to a thread or learn how to stay away from them ... your choice.

Besides the fact that I have addressed this 5 times, I have never seen you be right about anything.

 

[BreezeWood]

.
the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

I’ve already corrected you enough times.

.

I’ve already corrected you enough times.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

corrected what ...

Everything

.

the ghost of rockwell has your back, good luck ... just do not look for the word christianity in the u s constitution - it's not there and is prevented by the 1st amendment from ever being included.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion -

Everything

that's not an explanation, bing its a word that says nothing at all - learn to contribute to a thread or learn how to stay away from them ... your choice.

Besides the fact that I have addressed this 5 times, I have never seen you be right about anything.

.

Besides the fact that I have addressed this 5 times, I have never seen you be right about anything.

give an example ... creep.

or an example during any century since the 4th christianity has not been at the forefront of persecution and victimization of the innocent. the founders knew better and did the best they could to keep any religion from the countries governance knowing from history the only honest gov't would be a sectarian one.

sinners have their church to pray in, what their need for more is their history.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#157 reply to #154

Anytime you are up for a debate in the bullring let me know.

Since you can’t make the case that America was founded as a Christian nation here, what makes you think you can do it over there.

You have yet to advise this thread what a person must believe in order to be a Christian.

How can you claim America was founded as a Christian nation if you won’t define what being a Christian is?

For example:

Does a Christian have to believe in the theological construct called original sin?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Anytime you are up for a debate in the bullring let me know.

Why? You can't even answer direct questions. You have not shown you have the tools for rational debate. You can dance and prance and preen, without substance, in any thread. Doing so in the bullring doesn't add anything.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#159 reply to #154

I have a lot more than that but right now I’d like to hear you say that Jefferson and Hamilton believed our rights are contingent upon meeting our duties and obligations to God.

This from the Historians and scholars at Monticello:

Jefferson rejected the notion of the Trinity and Jesus' divinity. He rejected Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin(believing that God could not fault or condemn all humanity for the sins of others, a gross injustice).

Monticello › research-and-collections
Jefferson's Religious Beliefs | Thomas Jefferson's Monticello​

Granted, that Jefferson considers our rights are contingent upon meeting our duties and obligations to God; it’s not to the God that Catholicism invented as the author of the theological construct they teach as original sin.

Original sin is unnatural law and I think Madison and Jefferson would agree.

So what’s your point?

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Benjamin Franklin on Original Sin; It is. “ .. every whit as ridiculous as that of Imputed Righteousness. ’Tis a Notion invented, a Bugbear set up by Priests (whether Popish or Presbyterian I know not) to fright and scare an unthinking Populace out of their Senses, and inspire them with Terror, to answer the little selfish Ends of the Inventors and Propagators. ’Tis absurd in it self, ......”

#160 reply to #87

It seems your only evidence of multiculturalism is that a few of the founding fathers were deists. So what? They believed in natural law same as the Christians

What do you mean our founders’ beliefs on national law were the same as the Christians?

Do you believe the human intellect is incapable of knowing the true content of the moral aspect of natural law apart from revelation only through the Holy Bible as interpreted to online the doctrine of Original Sin?

Why don’t you honestly respond to any of there questions? Why can’t you find a Christian Nationalist to help you.

Franklin rejected original sin in his 1735 A Defense of Mr. Hemphill’s Observations:​

But lest they shou’d imagine that one of their strongest Objections hinted at here, and elsewhere, is designedly overlook’d, as being unanswerable, viz. our lost and undone State by Nature, as it is commonly call’d, proceeding undoubtedly from the Imputation of old Father Adam’s first Guilt. To this I answer once for all, that I look upon this Opinion every whit as ridiculous as that of Imputed Righteousness. ’Tis a Notion invented, a Bugbear set up by Priests (whether Popish or Presbyterian I know not) to fright and scare an unthinking Populace out of their Senses, and inspire them with Terror, to answer the little selfish Ends of the Inventors and Propagators. ’Tis absurd in it self, and therefore cannot be father’d upon the Christian Religion as deliver’d in the Gospel. Moral Guilt is so personal a Thing, that it cannot possibly in the Nature of Things be transferr’d from one Man to Myriads of others, that were no way accessary to it. And to suppose a Man liable to Punishment upon account of the Guilt of another, is unreasonable; and actually to punish him for it, is unjust and cruel.

The Founders on Original Sin & Human Nature:
American Creation
​

So again Ding, what is with your “same as Christians” betrayal of the truth?