America was founded as an enlightened multicultural Nation

[ding]

#115 reply to #111.

So... it seems that the statement that the founding fathers believed our rights are contingent upon our obligations and duties to God is unchallenged.

No. It’s been challenged that all the founding Fathers did not believe in the Christian God of the Bible’s duties and obligations. You’ve run from the ‘Christian’ part of that conversation.

Change the argument because you literally have no argument for what I wrote.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Change the argument because you literally have no argument for what I wrote.

I changed nothing. You wrote in post #87 that our rational theist founding father’s beliefs about God were the same as Christians.


#87

They believed that those rights are only granted to us as long as we meet our duties and obligations to God same as Christians.

You can’t erase what you wrote. The big obligation and duty for Christians is absolute belief that Jesus Christ was the only Son of God sent here to die on the Cross to save all mankind from original sin committed in the Garden of Eden other other forms of miracles and supernatural hocus pocus.

Many of the founders/framers did not believe it was their duty to give you rationalism for hocus pocus.

 

[BreezeWood]

christianity is a vial religion of distraught sinners - bing is a good example, ignoring the truth for their own ulterior and meritorious motives. the infusion of their religion onto society through govn't - the very opposite of the accomplishments written into the u s constitution.

de Toquerville observed differently.

.

Clearly you have no clue why the 14th amendment was needed if you believe that.

Wrong, learn some history.

de Toquerville observed differently.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

the 14th is a civil war amendment - and was needed to refute people like you that would have 50 separate states than a united states of america - the same with your misinterpretation of the 1st amendment that does exactly as is stated, there is no religion of america.

you ignore the thread title - e pluribus unum -

refutes everything you have claimed in this thread.

 

[ding]

christianity is a vial religion of distraught sinners - bing is a good example, ignoring the truth for their own ulterior and meritorious motives. the infusion of their religion onto society through govn't - the very opposite of the accomplishments written into the u s constitution.

de Toquerville observed differently.

.

Clearly you have no clue why the 14th amendment was needed if you believe that.

Wrong, learn some history.

de Toquerville observed differently.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

the 14th is a civil war amendment - and was needed to refute people like you that would have 50 separate states than a united states of america - the same with your misinterpretation of the 1st amendment that does exactly as is stated, there is no religion of america.

you ignore the thread title - e pluribus unum -

refutes everything you have claimed in this thread.

See my previous post, Ivan.

 

[ding]

Change the argument because you literally have no argument for what I wrote.

I changed nothing. You wrote in post #87 that our rational theist founding father’s beliefs about God were the same as Christians.


#87

They believed that those rights are only granted to us as long as we meet our duties and obligations to God same as Christians.

You can’t erase what you wrote. The big obligation and duty for Christians is absolute belief that Jesus Christ was the only Son of God sent here to die on the Cross to save all mankind from original sin committed in the Garden of Eden other other forms of miracles and supernatural hocus pocus.

Many of the founders/framers did not believe it was their duty to give you rationalism for hocus pocus.

I’m going to keep rubbing your nose in this until it bleeds.

"The philosophy of natural rights was championed by such Founding Fathers as Richard Bland, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, Richard Henry Lee, James Madison, George Mason, Robert Carter Nicholas, Peyton Randolph, George Washington, and George Wythe. Indeed, it would be amazing if any Revolutionary leader of the Commonwealth could be found who did not subscribe to the doctrines of natural law and right..."

"...In their most generalized expressions the Founding Fathers spoke of their natural rights to life and liberty, adding at times, property, and on other occasions, the pursuit of happiness. To some contemporaries the alternative use of property and the pursuit of happiness may seem strange, but to many of the Fathers property meant the right to develop one's properties, that is, his faculties. The particular natural rights on which there was the largest measure of agreement among the Virginians were (i) freedom of conscience, (2) freedom of communication, (3) the right to be free from arbitrary laws, (4) the rights of assembly and petition, (5) the property right, (6) the right of self-government, to which were frequently appended (a) the right of expatriation and (b) a right to change the form of government..."

"...The Virginia Founding Fathers were in substantial agreement that the ultimate source of our natural rights was our Creator. Men "are endowed by their Creator" with inherent and inalienable rights, said Thomas Jefferson in the memorable language of the Declaration of Independence.14 Earlier Jefferson had written in his Summary View that "the God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time."' 5 We have natural rights of the intellect, he indicated, "because Almighty God hath created the mind free . .. "16 Speaking of the natural right of expatriation, Jefferson said in the Summary View: "The evidence of this natural right, like that of our right to life, liberty, the use of our faculties, the pursuit of happiness, is not left to the feeble and sophistical investigations of reason, but is impressed on the sense of every man. We do not claim these under the charters of kings or legislators, but under the King of kings."' 7 In his Notes on Virginia, Jefferson wrote: "And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?"18 Speaking there of our natural rights, he concluded: "We are answerable for them to our God."' 9..."

"...Later in life Jefferson wrote that we must follow "those moral rules which the Author of our being has implanted in man as the law of his nature to govern him in his associated, as well as individual character."21 That the natural rights of man came from God, in Jefferson's belief, was beyond doubt. His fellow Virginians were ready to join in asserting that our rights came from "the great Author of nature, '22 which assertion was simply sharing in such a view held by practically all of our Revolutionary leaders. Typically, John Adams wrote in his Dissertation on the Canon and Feudal Law, "I say RIGHTS, for such they have, undoubtedly, antecedent to all earthly government,-Rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws-Rights, derived from the great Legislator of the universe."23..."

"...Thomas Jefferson and many of his contemporaries understood that the natural rights of man depended upon teleological considerations. So viewed, and accepting the premise that man's goal is being with his Creator for eternity, man has the duty to abide by His will and directions, because they are necessary to satisfy man's duties. Jefferson wrote that "the true office is to declare and enforce our natural rights and duties."24 The existence of natural duties and the relationship of rights to duties were quite apparent to Jefferson, and anyone who has studied the man should realize that the only natural duties Jefferson acknowledged were not to temporal kings, but to the Creator. James Madison was even more explicit that the source of rights exists in man's duty to his Creator. Writing of the unalienable right of religion in his Memorial and Remonstrance, he stated that the right is unalienable "because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homeage, and such only, as he believes to be acceptable to Him. His duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, who enters into any subordinate Association, must always do it with a reservation of his duty to the general authority; much more must every man who becomes a member of any particular Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign." 25 Another leading Virginian, George Mason, was equally clear in asserting that the obligation of man to his Maker was the source of natural rights. In 1772 he wrote: "Now all acts of legislature apparently contrary to natural right and justice, are, in our laws, and must be in the nature of things, considered as void. The laws of nature are the laws of God: A legislature must not obstruct our obedience to him from whose punishments they cannot protect us. All human constitutions which contradict His laws, we are in conscience bound to disobey. Such have been the adjudications of our courts of justice." 26 The imperative necessity of understanding ends and duties in order to delineate natural rights was appreciated not only by Messrs. Jefferson, Madison, and Mason, but also by Virginians generally in our formative period. The members of the Virginia convention that ratified the United States Constitution saw and stated that the natural rights of conscience and religion are predicated upon an obligation to God. They contended that it was because of "the duty which we owe to our Creator," that "all men have an equal, natural and unalienable right to the free exercise of religion according to the dictates of conscience." 27..."

 

[Frankeneinstein]

#1. We will start with the Puritans

The first group of “Mayflower” Christians to set foot on what was to become Massachusetts’s soil were separatists meaning they left the Church of England behind. Those separatists were eventually absorbed into the following groups of non-separatist Puritans who under Congregationalist Churches maintained a loyal relationship with the Church of England until the revolt against King Charles in 1776 was declared.

In no way should the early separatist Puritans be confused with the Revolutionary War Separatists. Many of the 1776 separatists were not Christian in a Puritan/Calvinistic sense at all. They were more philosophically aligned with the modern liberal mindset of the times when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

“So who, then, were the Puritans? While the Separatists believed that the only way to live according to Biblical precepts was to leave the Church of England entirely, the Puritans thought they could reform the church from within. Sometimes called non-separating Puritans, this less radical group shared a lot in common with the Separatists, particularly a form of worship and self-organization called “the congregational way.” https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/news/pilgrims-puritans-differences​

So what part did "enlightened multiculturalist founders" play in slavery and treatment of native Americans?

 

[ding]

the statement that the founding fathers believed our rights are contingent upon our obligations and duties to God is unchallenged.

 

[BreezeWood]

the statement that the founding fathers believed our rights are contingent upon our obligations and duties to God is unchallenged.

.
your obsession diminishes your accountability - when diverting it to an unsubstantiated entity - christianity. the religion of antiquity is secular - the same as the founding fathers in witting the u s constitution for the most practical and beneficial reasons for everyone involved.

Because I think you’re a troll?

or is it because I’m better at it than you?

says a lot about your motivation, winner. - from another thread but may as well follow you to this one.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Anyone convinced or of the opinion that Protestant Christianity was ”tied” to the US Constitution when it was written are certainly welcome to bring history, facts, and the best knowledge about the hearts, minds and souls of our founding fathers and the religion, philosophy and science they absorbed during their lifetimes to make that case.

I will make the case for separate and “untied” because I am certain that all must agree that Protestant Christianity was deeply involved in just about every aspect of the British America’s colonial culture ever since the day a group of Protestant Christians, subjects of the King of England, came to the New World aboard the Arbella in 1630 hearing these words from Governor John Winthrop as they sailed across the Atlantic:

“Secondly for the work we have in hand. It is by a mutual consent, through a special overvaluing providence and a more than an ordinary approbation of the churches of Christ, to seek out a place of cohabitation and consortship under a due form of government both civil and ecclesiastical. In such cases as this, the care of the public must oversway all private respects, by which, not only conscience, but mere civil policy, doth bind us. For it is a true rule that particular estates cannot subsist in the ruin of the public.” https://www.casa-arts.org/cms/lib/PA01925203/Centricity/Domain/50/A Model of Christian Charity.pdf


Yes, Christian settlers came to the New World with leaders such as Governor Winthrop to set up a Christian government tied to the British Crown.

All true, but one century later - an European and very non-Christian influence engaged the minds of many of Colonial America’s leaders who led during the Revolution and the founding of the United Stars of America.


The new founding influence was Deism. Here are a few paragraphs about that:

The Founding Fathers, Deism, and Christianity. WRITTEN BY: David L. Holmes

The Founding Fathers, Deism, and Christianity

“The sweeping disagreement over the religious faiths of the Founders arises from a question of discrepancy. Did their private beliefs differ from the orthodox teachings of their churches? On the surface, most Founders appear to have been orthodox (or “right-believing”) Christians. Most were baptized, listed on church rolls, married to practicing Christians, and frequent or at least sporadic attenders of services of Christian worship. In public statements, most invoked divine assistance.”


“But the widespread existence in 18th-century America of a school of religious thought called Deism complicates the actual beliefs of the Founders. Drawing from the scientific and philosophical work of such figures as Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Isaac Newton, and John Locke, Deists argued that human experience and rationality—rather than religious dogma and mystery—determine the validity of human beliefs.”


“Thus, Deism inevitably subverted orthodox Christianity. Persons influenced by the movement had little reason to read the Bible, to pray, to attend church, or to participate in such rites as baptism, Holy Communion, and the laying on of hands (confirmation) by bishops.”


“But Deistic thought was immensely popular in colleges from the middle of the 18th into the 19th century. Thus, it influenced many educated (as well as uneducated) males of the Revolutionary generation. Although such men would generally continue their public affiliation with Christianity after college, they might inwardly hold unorthodox religious views. Depending on the extent to which Americans of Christian background were influenced by Deism, their religious beliefs would fall into three categories: non-Christian Deism, Christian Deism, and orthodox Christianity.”


Moving forward I will show how Deusm, Theism and Unitarianism, in the enlightened minds of sufficient numbers of our founding fathers is what brought about the new concept of separation of church and state thus ‘untying’ the knot between the US Federal Government and the dominate Protestant Christian Church and religion that Governor Winthrop brought to New England.

.

Moving forward I will show how Deusm, Theism and Unitarianism, in the enlightened minds of sufficient numbers of our founding fathers is what brought about the new concept of separation of church and state thus ‘untying’ the knot between the US Federal Government and the dominate Protestant Christian Church and religion that Governor Winthrop brought to New England.

thankfully, the bible belt's influence in the actual writing of the u s constitution was averted from establishing a religious, christian state and their limited influence remained to establish with the constitution's final enactment a primarily secular document.

There was no Bible Belt in 1787 you chucklehead.

 

[ding]

the statement that the founding fathers believed our rights are contingent upon our obligations and duties to God is unchallenged.

.
your obsession diminishes your accountability - when diverting it to an unsubstantiated entity - christianity. the religion of antiquity is secular - the same as the founding fathers in witting the u s constitution for the most practical and beneficial reasons for everyone involved.

Because I think you’re a troll?

or is it because I’m better at it than you?

says a lot about your motivation, winner. - from another thread but may as well follow you to this one.

And yet all founding fathers believed our rights were granted to us for no other reason than we are God’s creatures and that those rights are contingent upon us meeting our duties and obligations to God.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#131 reply to #130

And yet all founding fathers believed our rights were granted to us for no other reason than we are God’s creatures and that those rights are contingent upon us meeting our duties and obligations to God.

Then you should back the slogan that America was founded as a God’s Creatures nation if that is all the argument you have.

Your had to admit that America was not founded as a Christian Nation so why do you continue to make a fool of yourself in writing?

 

[BreezeWood]

the statement that the founding fathers believed our rights are contingent upon our obligations and duties to God is unchallenged.

.
your obsession diminishes your accountability - when diverting it to an unsubstantiated entity - christianity. the religion of antiquity is secular - the same as the founding fathers in witting the u s constitution for the most practical and beneficial reasons for everyone involved.

Because I think you’re a troll?

or is it because I’m better at it than you?

says a lot about your motivation, winner. - from another thread but may as well follow you to this one.

And yet all founding fathers believed our rights were granted to us for no other reason than we are God’s creatures and that those rights are contingent upon us meeting our duties and obligations to God.

.

your obsession diminishes your accountability - when diverting it to an unsubstantiated entity - christianity. the religion of antiquity is secular - the same as the founding fathers in witting the u s constitution for the most practical and beneficial reasons for everyone involved.

And yet all founding fathers believed our rights were granted to us for no other reason than we are God’s creatures and that those rights are contingent upon us meeting our duties and obligations to God

they left your religion, christianity out of the constitution for the very reasons you give - most believed in the grater good over evil - bing.

 

[ding]

the statement that the founding fathers believed our rights are contingent upon our obligations and duties to God is unchallenged.

.
your obsession diminishes your accountability - when diverting it to an unsubstantiated entity - christianity. the religion of antiquity is secular - the same as the founding fathers in witting the u s constitution for the most practical and beneficial reasons for everyone involved.

Because I think you’re a troll?

or is it because I’m better at it than you?

says a lot about your motivation, winner. - from another thread but may as well follow you to this one.

And yet all founding fathers believed our rights were granted to us for no other reason than we are God’s creatures and that those rights are contingent upon us meeting our duties and obligations to God.

.

your obsession diminishes your accountability - when diverting it to an unsubstantiated entity - christianity. the religion of antiquity is secular - the same as the founding fathers in witting the u s constitution for the most practical and beneficial reasons for everyone involved.

And yet all founding fathers believed our rights were granted to us for no other reason than we are God’s creatures and that those rights are contingent upon us meeting our duties and obligations to God

they left your religion, christianity out of the constitution for the very reasons you give - most believed in the grater good over evil - bing.

Does it bother you that all of the founding fathers believed that our rights are contingent upon our meeting our duties and obligations to God?

 

[ding]

#131 reply to #130

And yet all founding fathers believed our rights were granted to us for no other reason than we are God’s creatures and that those rights are contingent upon us meeting our duties and obligations to God.

Then you should back the slogan that America was founded as a God’s Creatures nation if that is all the argument you have.

Your had to admit that America was not founded as a Christian Nation so why do you continue to make a fool of yourself in writing?

I have a lot more than that but right now I’d like to hear you say that Jefferson and Hamilton believed our rights are contingent upon meeting our duties and obligations to God.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

the point being made here is that America was not founded as a mono cultural Protestant Christian Nation

Right, there were white Catholics, too!

 

[BreezeWood]

the statement that the founding fathers believed our rights are contingent upon our obligations and duties to God is unchallenged.

.
your obsession diminishes your accountability - when diverting it to an unsubstantiated entity - christianity. the religion of antiquity is secular - the same as the founding fathers in witting the u s constitution for the most practical and beneficial reasons for everyone involved.

Because I think you’re a troll?

or is it because I’m better at it than you?

says a lot about your motivation, winner. - from another thread but may as well follow you to this one.

And yet all founding fathers believed our rights were granted to us for no other reason than we are God’s creatures and that those rights are contingent upon us meeting our duties and obligations to God.

.

your obsession diminishes your accountability - when diverting it to an unsubstantiated entity - christianity. the religion of antiquity is secular - the same as the founding fathers in witting the u s constitution for the most practical and beneficial reasons for everyone involved.

And yet all founding fathers believed our rights were granted to us for no other reason than we are God’s creatures and that those rights are contingent upon us meeting our duties and obligations to God

they left your religion, christianity out of the constitution for the very reasons you give - most believed in the grater good over evil - bing.

Does it bother you that all of the founding fathers believed that our rights are contingent upon our meeting our duties and obligations to God?

.

Does it bother you that all of the founding fathers believed that our rights are contingent upon our meeting our duties and obligations to God?

you keep not using your favorite word - they too knew christianity was a deviant 4th century aberration that's why they left your religion out of the u s constitution.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Does it bother you that all of the founding fathers believed that our rights are contingent upon our meeting our duties and obligations to God?

Why should it?

 

[ding]

Does it bother you that all of the founding fathers believed that our rights are contingent upon our meeting our duties and obligations to God?

Why should it?

Exactly. It shouldn’t. But it seems that it does for BW and GeorgeW.

 

[ding]

the statement that the founding fathers believed our rights are contingent upon our obligations and duties to God is unchallenged.

.
your obsession diminishes your accountability - when diverting it to an unsubstantiated entity - christianity. the religion of antiquity is secular - the same as the founding fathers in witting the u s constitution for the most practical and beneficial reasons for everyone involved.

Because I think you’re a troll?

or is it because I’m better at it than you?

says a lot about your motivation, winner. - from another thread but may as well follow you to this one.

And yet all founding fathers believed our rights were granted to us for no other reason than we are God’s creatures and that those rights are contingent upon us meeting our duties and obligations to God.

.

your obsession diminishes your accountability - when diverting it to an unsubstantiated entity - christianity. the religion of antiquity is secular - the same as the founding fathers in witting the u s constitution for the most practical and beneficial reasons for everyone involved.

And yet all founding fathers believed our rights were granted to us for no other reason than we are God’s creatures and that those rights are contingent upon us meeting our duties and obligations to God

they left your religion, christianity out of the constitution for the very reasons you give - most believed in the grater good over evil - bing.

Does it bother you that all of the founding fathers believed that our rights are contingent upon our meeting our duties and obligations to God?

.

Does it bother you that all of the founding fathers believed that our rights are contingent upon our meeting our duties and obligations to God?

you keep not using your favorite word - they too knew christianity was a deviant 4th century aberration that's why they left your religion out of the u s constitution.

Prove it.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#140 reply to #134

I have a lot more than that but right now I’d like to hear you say that Jefferson and Hamilton believed our rights are contingent upon meeting our duties and obligations to God.

I’d like to hear you say in your own words what are the minimum duties and obligations one must have in other to be a Christian. I have asked for that and you avoid it like the plague.

Here’s is a non-Christian non-Biblical unchurched expression of duty to Nature’s God from whom we get our rights from one of the most anti-Bible rational theists from the Revolutionary Era.

Postulating a distant deity whom he called “Nature’s God” (a term also used in the Declaration of Independence), Paine declared in a “profession of faith”:​

I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and in endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.​

Thus, Deism inevitably subverted orthodox Christianity. Persons influenced by the movement had little reason to read the Bible, to pray, to attend church, or to participate in such rites as baptism, Holy Communion, and the laying on of hands (confirmation) by bishops.

The Founding Fathers, Deism, and Christianity. WRITTEN BY: David L. Holmes The Founding Fathers, Deism, and Christianity​

If you are trying to convert our beloved rational desist key revolutionaries, founders and framers into orthodox mainstream Christians you will always fail. Because it is a lie. And Christians should not lie. It’s one of your duties and obligations to the God of the Jewish Catholic and Protestant Christian Bible.

When Paine says “I believe in one God, and no more” he is rejecting the Holy Trinity of Christianity.