America Behind in Math and Science

[HappyPeaches]

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American Students Lacking in Math and Science • 12/11/08

The Gap
The current state of US education in the subjects of math and science is in shambles. Although ahead of most of the world, the US has not been following its traditional path of greatness. Asian nations and students dominate the fields of math, and have been gaining in science. The US lags behind 1 out of every 10 developed nations in the world in these fields. It is time we get our act together.

With Asians dominating math and science, the American students lag behind. Korea, China, and Hong Kong, are all nations that have recently surpassed us on international tests. Although getting better, we are still behind the other nations. We had better start to close the gaps before it becomes to late.

The Gains
As the US slows its progress in math and science, other nations, mostly Asian, are beginning to catch up and some are surpassing. Fifteen years ago, the US was ahead of nations such as Singapore, Taiwan, and Japan in the fields of math and science. Now these countries, and several others, have scored higher than the US on international tests.

Also, within our own country, gaps are being closed. Girls are beginning to close the gender gap. Recent studies show that at fourth grade, the gender gap is barely noticeable and by eighth grade, the gap has disappeared entirely. Hispanic and Africa American students are beginning to close the gap between them and white students, but there is still much progress that needs to be made.

The Problems and Solutions
One of the major problems that we have that is the reason why we are slowing down in math and science is the lack of good teachers. It is a deathly cycle—of the people who are strong in the areas of math and science, only a fraction become teachers, and only a fraction of teachers are really experienced, and all the teachers that aren’t as experienced don’t teach as good, and so students don’t learn as well as they should.

Teachers today don’t seem to be devoted to their work as they should be. For one, they aren’t regarded properly. It is the teachers that accept the students for who they are and who teach them the things that they will need to know to succeed in life. Without teachers, society as we know it would cease to exist. They deserve more respect that what they have now.

Teachers are not the source of the problem, it’s every single American citizen. Did you treat your teachers the way you should have? If you didn’t, shame on you! It is they who got you to where you are in life right now. It is they you gave you your education to help you in the real world, and what kind of thanks did you show them? It is time we start treating teachers how they should, and most definitely deserve, to be treated.

Another major problem is the lack of disregard of these subjects, as well as the seeming lack of interest in school from children. Yes, children will be children, but being children shouldn’t get in the way of their learning. Math and science should be the things that kids are interested in, but the way the majority of teachers are teaching today doesn’t make it seem interesting. The lack of interest in these subject is a major cause of why we lag behind. If the US wishes to close the education gap, we will seriously need to think about changing our teaching methods.

 

[Southpaw]

Privatize schools. Reward excellence, not bureaucracy.

Teach the children to actually think, not just memorize for a test.

 

[Shogun]

provatized schools would become no better than public schools as soon as the population of students shift from public to private. It's kinda like how Apple computers don't have as many malware bugs because not as many people use them as they do Pcs.

it's pretty rhetorical crap to suggest that kids learn to think instead of memorize by rote while imagining that staggered scale wages for "better" teachers will produce anything other than accusations of corruption while the PRODUCT of kids' education is not immediately discernible. As if these "good" teachers won't be teaching by rote while fighting over which kids will make their "success rate" appear better than everyone elses.


hell, not to mention that teaching kids that a jewish ghost waved a magic finger in the science class will do them a lot of good in a private setting...

 

[Southpaw]

provatized schools would become no better than public schools as soon as the population of students shift from public to private. It's kinda like how Apple computers don't have as many malware bugs because not as many people use them as they do Pcs.

Entirely wrong. Privatized schools will do better because the focus will be on the product and not the system. That's why private businesses absolutely destroy government-run businesses.

it's pretty rhetorical crap to suggest that kids learn to think instead of memorize by rote while imagining that staggered scale wages for "better" teachers will produce anything other than accusations of corruption while the PRODUCT of kids' education is not immediately discernible. As if these "good" teachers won't be teaching by rote while fighting over which kids will make their "success rate" appear better than everyone elses.

The system will have its own difficulties, that much is certainly true.

That being said, teachers in our schools today are hamstrung by teaching towards one test and being forced to follow regulations which mitigate their efficiency.

hell, not to mention that teaching kids that a jewish ghost waved a magic finger in the science class will do them a lot of good in a private setting...

How on earth does this bear any relevance to the topic at hand? Why are you bringing it up?

 

[Amanda]

I hated math and science classes. They were boring and none of it has ever matter even a tiny bit in real life except being able to add and subtract numbers which I have been able to do since I was 6 or 7 and didn't even learn in school.

I think there should be as much math and science as the student wants. If I'm not interested I shouldn't have had to sit through it. This would give more time and smaller class sizes for the kids that care about it.

 

[HappyPeaches]

provatized schools would become no better than public schools as soon as the population of students shift from public to private. It's kinda like how Apple computers don't have as many malware bugs because not as many people use them as they do Pcs.

But privatized schools generally have better teachers than public school, so even if the population of students shifted from public to private, the teachers, who are generally better, should be able to handle the shift. If they can't, the private schools would just increase the amount of teachers per student.

it's pretty rhetorical crap to suggest that kids learn to think instead of memorize by rote while imagining that staggered scale wages for "better" teachers will produce anything other than accusations of corruption while the PRODUCT of kids' education is not immediately discernible. As if these "good" teachers won't be teaching by rote while fighting over which kids will make their "success rate" appear better than everyone elses.

Kids will succeed more in school and life if they are taught to think on their own. It is NOT crap because if the students learn to think on their own, they will be able to apply what they know to the real world. We don't want robot kids who can only do things that are straightforward. We want them to be problem solvers that can survive the real world.

hell, not to mention that teaching kids that a jewish ghost waved a magic finger in the science class will do them a lot of good in a private setting...

What are you talking about?

 

[Shogun]

Entirely wrong. Privatized schools will do better because the focus will be on the product and not the system. That's why private businesses absolutely destroy government-run businesses.

private business is not a panacea and doesn't always destroy government business. I'm betting that your local police force is not a private business. Why not?

The system will have its own difficulties, that much is certainly true.

Inideed, and whose to say that they won't be WORSE than what we have now as millions of average kids fall between the cracks so that competitiveness amongst teachers causes more effort in advertising than education while fighting for the best crop of students? the FACT is that private schools cannot handle the capacity of all the students that public schools take on and I think you people are naieve as hell about the repercussions of your own ideas while trying to sell the concept.


That being said, teachers in our schools today are hamstrung by teaching towards one test and being forced to follow regulations which mitigate their efficiency.

forced by whom? No Child Left Behind wasn't created for the sake of better schools so much as it was created for the sake of the reputation of an ignorant president. You think private schools WONT have tests and likert scale multiple choice tests? Besides, You trade regulation for regulation. A difference which may not have the kind of result that you'd think.



How on earth does this bear any relevance to the topic at hand? Why are you bringing it up?


it's a classic motivation behind demonising public schools for the sake of private schools. This thread complains about math and science scores while your solution thus far is to thrust kids into a private environment where it's ok to teach kids that a jewish ghost is more valid than the scientific method. Ironic considering the thread title.

 

[editec]

Heads up Americans suck at history, too.

How else can you explain the state of the nation?

 

[Shogun]

But privatized schools generally have better teachers than public school, so even if the population of students shifted from public to private, the teachers, who are generally better, should be able to handle the shift. If they can't, the private schools would just increase the amount of teachers per student.

They also have a SELECT group of students that are not at all representative of the batch that goes to public schools. Can you not fathom how transplanting kids from public schools will water down this SELECTED type of student? Private school teachers are not merely better at their jobs. They don't use some secret guarded methodology that is passed down from tenure to tenure. They use tests and Likert scale multiple choice questions too. They make students memorize too. This pipe dream reminds me of the Fair Tax people and their supposed panacea for taxes.



Kids will succeed more in school and life if they are taught to think on their own. It is NOT crap because if the students learn to think on their own, they will be able to apply what they know to the real world. We don't want robot kids who can only do things that are straightforward. We want them to be problem solvers that can survive the real world.

yea, dude... that rhetorical nonesense sure does sound good on paper, doesn't it?


What are you talking about?


see above.




I think the both of you are failing to identify the correct problem with students these days. It's not a matter of creating a segregated education system between public and publicly funded private schools. It's a matter of motivation that can't be solved by pretending that private schools tan handle the capacity of public schools while disregarding the average kids that no teacher wants to accept because their annual evaluation depends on packing their class with the brightest students (AGAIN, selective classes just as before)



the better solution than what you suggest is to pay the kids for THEIR performance.

 

[Southpaw]

Entirely wrong. Privatized schools will do better because the focus will be on the product and not the system. That's why private businesses absolutely destroy government-run businesses.

private business is not a panacea and doesn't always destroy government business. I'm betting that your local police force is not a private business. Why not?

Public security is one of the few things that do fall under the government's jurisdiction, primarily because that is what the government was created to do. That whole 'defend the rights of the people' thing.

The system will have its own difficulties, that much is certainly true.

Inideed, and whose to say that they won't be WORSE than what we have now as millions of average kids fall between the cracks so that competitiveness amongst teachers causes more effort in advertising than education while fighting for the best crop of students? the FACT is that private schools cannot handle the capacity of all the students that public schools take on and I think you people are naieve as hell about the repercussions of your own ideas while trying to sell the concept.

You would need controls in place to make sure that kids weren't just shuffled off in order to help some teachers run up the numbers. That's okay. The same types of controls are in place in every single business on earth to keep individual managers from doing the same thing with their budget estimates.

That being said, teachers in our schools today are hamstrung by teaching towards one test and being forced to follow regulations which mitigate their efficiency.

forced by whom? No Child Left Behind wasn't created for the sake of better schools so much as it was created for the sake of the reputation of an ignorant president. You think private schools WONT have tests and likert scale multiple choice tests? Besides, You trade regulation for regulation. A difference which may not have the kind of result that you'd think.

Actually, I'd prefer to trade regulation for oversight. I see a difference. I'd like the government to set high standards and reward company-run schools that meet those standards via increased contracts.

How on earth does this bear any relevance to the topic at hand? Why are you bringing it up?

it's a classic motivation behind demonising public schools for the sake of private schools. This thread complains about math and science scores while your solution thus far is to thrust kids into a private environment where it's ok to teach kids that a jewish ghost is more valid than the scientific method. Ironic considering the thread title.

No one is talking about religious private schools. I went to a very secular private school. It happened to be very competitive in Texas and the US. Your point is absolutely out of context. It sounds like you are just sounding off on a pet peeve because you have run out of things to say about the current topic.

 

[RodISHI]

No doubt many in America do not know how to add. Did the CEO's of the banks go to school or just pretend to pass those math classes? Or is it just play ignorance and everyone else will eventually bail you out? This question has baffled me for several years now.

 

[HappyPeaches]

private business is not a panacea and doesn't always destroy government business. I'm betting that your local police force is not a private business. Why not?

Private businesses are not destroying government businesses. Private schools would do generally better than public schools because of a better workforce. Like you said, private businesses aren't the solution to everything, but it is for education.

Inideed, and whose to say that they won't be WORSE than what we have now as millions of average kids fall between the cracks so that competitiveness amongst teachers causes more effort in advertising than education while fighting for the best crop of students? the FACT is that private schools cannot handle the capacity of all the students that public schools take on and I think you people are naieve as hell about the repercussions of your own ideas while trying to sell the concept.

If the teachers in the private schools can't handle all the public school students, I say change the public school teachers.

it's a classic motivation behind demonising public schools for the sake of private schools. This thread complains about math and science scores while your solution thus far is to thrust kids into a private environment where it's ok to teach kids that a jewish ghost is more valid than the scientific method. Ironic considering the thread title.

Thrust kids into a private environment OR change the public school teachers teaching method.

 

[Shogun]

Public security is one of the few things that do fall under the government's jurisdiction, primarily because that is what the government was created to do. That whole 'defend the rights of the people' thing.

The gov was not created to provide a police force any more than it was created to provide fire district protection. Which, AGAIN, i'm betting yours is not a private enterprise. And, as soon as you get to start making caveats to your basic argument guess what I get to do: make caveats about education.



You would need controls in place to make sure that kids weren't just shuffled off in order to help some teachers run up the numbers. That's okay. The same types of controls are in place in every single business on earth to keep individual managers from doing the same thing with their budget estimates.

oh so NOW we are talking about REGULATION, eh? Isn't that the antithesis of your initial argument regarding why privates are better than publics? What, are you thinking QUOTAS perhaps? Obligatory acceptance of token demographics? Do you see where im going with this?



Actually, I'd prefer to trade regulation for oversight. I see a difference. I'd like the government to set high standards and reward company-run schools that meet those standards via increased contracts.


applied oversight IS regulation. What is the point of oversight if it can't regulate? Again, "meet those high standards" is rhetorical nonsense. If you gut public schools then WHAT should those "high" standards compare to? Your opinion or that of every other parent whose kid is the volleyball in this game of public vs. private?



No one is talking about religious private schools. I went to a very secular private school. It happened to be very competitive in Texas and the US. Your point is absolutely out of context. It sounds like you are just sounding off on a pet peeve because you have run out of things to say about the current topic.

sure, sure.. no one claims to be talking about jesus christ when bringing up intelligent design either. If you think this facet of the debate is irrelevant then perhaps you should stick to the non sequiters and tired talking points like you've done thus far and leave the thinking to others.

 

[del]

sure, sure.. no one claims to be talking about jesus christ when bringing up intelligent design either. If you think this facet of the debate is irrelevant then perhaps you should stick to the non sequiters and tired talking points like you've done thus far and leave the thinking to others.

obsess much, junior?

 

[Shogun]

Private businesses are not destroying government businesses. Private schools would do generally better than public schools because of a better workforce. Like you said, private businesses aren't the solution to everything, but it is for education.

well, that certainly is your opinion. I disagree.



If the teachers in the private schools can't handle all the public school students, I say change the public school teachers.

It's a numbers game that you refuse to consider. If the 80% of kids going to public schools go to private schools tomorrow then private schools also get the whole range of crap, from lowered test scores to violence, that we see in public school. It's simply not a fact that kids will all of a sudden stop being kids just because their parents paid private tuition. Especially once you strip the exclusivity away from privates schools which is, lets face it, the ONLY reason their results seem greater than they are. You fall for a false correlation.


Thrust kids into a private environment OR change the public school teachers teaching method.


Again, private schools use rote memorization, likert scale tests and the rest just like public schools. It's not the method. It's not the environment. It's figuring out how to motivate the kid in relation to their place in a society that doesn't require them to go to school or work at the family farm.

 

[catzmeow]

Teach the children to actually think, not just memorize for a test.

The problem with this concept is that for lower math skills, there IS a foundation of memorization that must occur in order to build on the higher critical thinking skills. And, the Asian schools that are kicking our asses in science and math rely heavily on memorization and rote repetition...

 

[Steerpike]

It's a numbers game that you refuse to consider. If the 80% of kids going to public schools go to private schools tomorrow then private schools also get the whole range of crap, from lowered test scores to violence, that we see in public school.

I think that is true.

The one difference may be that a private school can kick people out more easily, and therefore doesn't have to tolerate the unruly, bad behavior hurting the other kid's ability to learn. The fact that public schools have become much more hampered in this way over the years has hurt them.

 

[Southpaw]

Public security is one of the few things that do fall under the government's jurisdiction, primarily because that is what the government was created to do. That whole 'defend the rights of the people' thing.

The gov was not created to provide a police force any more than it was created to provide fire district protection. Which, AGAIN, i'm betting yours is not a private enterprise. And, as soon as you get to start making caveats to your basic argument guess what I get to do: make caveats about education.

Maybe you should read the Preamble to the Constitution.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

You would need controls in place to make sure that kids weren't just shuffled off in order to help some teachers run up the numbers. That's okay. The same types of controls are in place in every single business on earth to keep individual managers from doing the same thing with their budget estimates.

oh so NOW we are talking about REGULATION, eh? Isn't that the antithesis of your initial argument regarding why privates are better than publics? What, are you thinking QUOTAS perhaps? Obligatory acceptance of token demographics? Do you see where im going with this?

It is possible to give the private sector mainly freedom with just a few oversights, you know. Yes I see where you are going. You are just throwing up strawman arguments in hopes that they stick. It's pretty funny, actually.

Actually, I'd prefer to trade regulation for oversight. I see a difference. I'd like the government to set high standards and reward company-run schools that meet those standards via increased contracts.

applied oversight IS regulation. What is the point of oversight if it can't regulate? Again, "meet those high standards" is rhetorical nonsense. If you gut public schools then WHAT should those "high" standards compare to? Your opinion or that of every other parent whose kid is the volleyball in this game of public vs. private?

High standards obviously being competitive in the world in terms of testing and college performance. Was that really that hard to figure out?

No one is talking about religious private schools. I went to a very secular private school. It happened to be very competitive in Texas and the US. Your point is absolutely out of context. It sounds like you are just sounding off on a pet peeve because you have run out of things to say about the current topic.

sure, sure.. no one claims to be talking about jesus christ when bringing up intelligent design either. If you think this facet of the debate is irrelevant then perhaps you should stick to the non sequiters and tired talking points like you've done thus far and leave the thinking to others.

You are the one who brought up religion. You are the one who brought up ID. You are the one who introduced that aspect to this conversation so quit trying to pin it on me. Stick to the topic and avoid using strawman arguments.

 

[Southpaw]

The problem with this concept is that for lower math skills, there IS a foundation of memorization that must occur in order to build on the higher critical thinking skills. And, the Asian schools that are kicking our asses in science and math rely heavily on memorization and rote repetition...

Agreed. Memorization has a place. However, kids today are taught to take tests, not to think. That was my point.

 

[Shogun]

I think that is true.

The one difference may be that a private school can kick people out more easily, and therefore doesn't have to tolerate the unruly, bad behavior hurting the other kid's ability to learn. The fact that public schools have become much more hampered in this way over the years has hurt them.

but if private education options replace public education options then how could a standard definition of unruly behaviour be maintained instead of arbitrary whims that ONLY favors the private education institution?


Again, I have to insist that this is why we don't let police be a private business. Why we scrapped Ben Franklinis idea of fire protection only for those who pay his annual dues.