America Behind in Math and Science

[Steerpike]

but if private education options replace public education options then how could a standard definition of unruly behaviour be maintained instead of arbitrary whims that ONLY favors the private education institution?
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Well, I think the school's would simply have to keep in place whatever current policies they have on unruly behavior. There is the potential for abuse of that, but if my kid were in a failing intercity school and I had a chance to get them into a private school where kids had a shot, I'd take that chance.

Or we could reform the public schools so they weren't often so bad

 

[HappyPeaches]

It's a numbers game that you refuse to consider. If the 80% of kids going to public schools go to private schools tomorrow then private schools also get the whole range of crap, from lowered test scores to violence, that we see in public school. It's simply not a fact that kids will all of a sudden stop being kids just because their parents paid private tuition. Especially once you strip the exclusivity away from privates schools which is, lets face it, the ONLY reason their results seem greater than they are. You fall for a false correlation.

It's a reality game that you refuse to consider. 80% of kids will NOT go to public schools tomorrow, private schools have testing to prevent idiots and violent students from entering the private environment.

Exclusivity is a result of better teachers. Better teachers = smart students who will succeed more in life.

Again, private schools use rote memorization, likert scale tests and the rest just like public schools. It's not the method. It's not the environment. It's figuring out how to motivate the kid in relation to their place in a society that doesn't require them to go to school or work at the family farm.

It is the method. For example, at early ages such as kindergarten, private schools may have one on one time with all students, where public schools my only have one on one with students who aren't doing as well.

It is the environment. For example, if you had to go to school every day knowing that you might get into a fight, the fear that would be instilled could cause a major reduction in that child's learning capabilities. Private schools take away that fear.

 

[Steerpike]

It's a reality game that you refuse to consider. 80% of kids will NOT go to public schools tomorrow, private schools have testing to prevent idiots and violent students from entering the private environment.

The only problem with this is that kids from disadvantaged backgrounds are going to come out on the bottom end of tests directed toward learning, etc. So if you were going to put some system into place to funnel kids into private schools you would need to correct for that.

 

[HappyPeaches]

The only problem with this is that kids from disadvantaged backgrounds are going to come out on the bottom end of tests directed toward learning, etc. So if you were going to put some system into place to funnel kids into private schools you would need to correct for that.

Put kids into private schools OR change the public school teacher's method.

 

[Steerpike]

Put kids into private schools OR change the public school teacher's method.

Easily said. I don't disagree, but the devil is in the details.

 

[HappyPeaches]

but if private education options replace public education options then how could a standard definition of unruly behaviour be maintained instead of arbitrary whims that ONLY favors the private education institution?

If private education options replace public education, the objective would be to have no unruly behavior at all. Even though this won't happen, that's the goal. A definition of unruly behavior does not favor the private education institution.

Again, I have to insist that this is why we don't let police be a private business. Why we scrapped Ben Franklinis idea of fire protection only for those who pay his annual dues.

Private schools are good because they can get rid of the unruly violence. Public schools can't. Private schools cannot be compared to the police. Police is better not a private business, put schooling should be.

 

[Shogun]

sure, they can do so NOW when they have the benefit of a SELECTIVE class.. But, once the bulk of public school kids are swapped into the private system the same problems will remain. Kids don't stop being kids just because you put them in a uniform.

and yes, since they both serve a PUBLIC function they can be compared. Why is it that you require narrow consideration of the entire range of possibilities in order to speak for private schools?


of COURSE you are on board with police and fire not being a private business.. Yet you insist that education is different with no foundation beyond an opinion as to why that is the case.


Like I said, you are blaming the wrong party here. It's not the public schools so much as it is a waning motivation of students compared to your experience in education.

 

[xsited1]

I'm a Physics major and my kids are good in Math and Science. I've always spent a lot of time helping them with their homework. Of course, they also go to private schools where teachers actually make less than their public school counterparts. The difference is that the parents are much more involved with their kids, mainly because when you consciously pay for their education you feel obligated to get the most out of it.

 

[Shogun]

Easily said. I don't disagree, but the devil is in the details.

devil is in the details indeed. As if students will stop having to memorize names and dates just because they are in a private school. Hell, how can a private school maintain a 1:1 problem student to teacher ratio after the bulk of public education gets dumped into the private format?

 

[Shogun]

I'm a Physics major and my kids are good in Math and Science. I've always spent a lot of time helping them with their homework. Of course, they also go to private schools where teachers actually make less than their public school counterparts. The difference is that the parents are much more involved with their kids, mainly because when you consciously pay for their education you feel obligated to get the most out of it.

that IS another factor that gets ignored when comparing private and public school results currently. do you think private schools will get MORE or LESS attentive parents as soon as the bulk of public school kids are dumped into private schools?

 

[Steerpike]

devil is in the details indeed. As if students will stop having to memorize names and dates just because they are in a private school. Hell, how can a private school maintain a 1:1 problem student to teacher ratio after the bulk of public education gets dumped into the private format?

They can't without a lot of money.

I would support simply putting in place in public schools a system that separates problem students out of the general population of students. We had 'public' high schools for those kids when I was growing up. Kept them from interfering with everyone else.

 

[Shogun]

i'd rather invest the kind of money it would take to actually make a private school transition into developing a modern system of motivation that appeals greater than "you should WANT to learn". Adults don't work because they merely WANT to work. We should condition kids to excel for the sake of their own gain even if we have to emulate life in our capitalist society and pair financial with intellectual gains.


the book it strategy on a widescale, of you will.

 

[Steerpike]

i'd rather invest the kind of money it would take to actually make a private school transition into developing a modern system of motivation that appeals greater than "you should WANT to learn". Adults don't work because they merely WANT to work. We should condition kids to excel for the sake of their own gain even if we have to emulate life in our capitalist society and pair financial with intellectual gains.


the book it strategy on a widescale, of you will.

Yeah, I think that's an interesting approach. Would be cool if someone could put it into practice in a few schools to see how it plays out.

 

[xsited1]

that IS another factor that gets ignored when comparing private and public school results currently. do you think private schools will get MORE or LESS attentive parents as soon as the bulk of public school kids are dumped into private schools?

The primary reason I spend the extra money to send my kids to private schools is so I have more control over my children's education. If public school kids were allowed in (with vouchers, for example), there would be no point in sending them to private schools. If that happened, I would probably opt for home-schooling.

 

[catzmeow]

Agreed. Memorization has a place. However, kids today are taught to take tests, not to think. That was my point.

I disagree. I've seen a great deal of flexibility and creativity from my kids' teachers over the years, and while it is true that some schools do teach to the test (particularly here, in Florida), it is also true that what is being tested is basic literacy skills that every student needs. Without those basic literacy skills, it's difficult to give kids critical thinking skills. That's why our math scores have actually gone up, comparatively speaking. I heard that yesterday on NPR, in fact.

 

[Shogun]

Yeah, I think that's an interesting approach. Would be cool if someone could put it into practice in a few schools to see how it plays out.

oh it's being tested right now. Indeed, I suspect this will be the next giant, earth destroying issue that makes it's way up the talking point mountain by the 2010 election cycle.

 

[Shogun]

The primary reason I spend the extra money to send my kids to private schools is so I have more control over my children's education. If public school kids were allowed in (with vouchers, for example), there would be no point in sending them to private schools. If that happened, I would probably opt for home-schooling.

thats exactly the point that unravels almost the entire argument of those who propose private schools will become some kind of educational panacea. THEN, would the public be expected to pay tuition to parents who decide to homeschool their kids after a private school failure?

 

[catzmeow]

thats exactly the point that unravels almost the entire argument of those who propose private schools will become some kind of educational panacea. THEN, would the public be expected to pay tuition to parents who decide to homeschool their kids after a private school failure?

xsited should really stop making sense. It's screwing up southpaw's argument.

 

[xsited1]

thats exactly the point that unravels almost the entire argument of those who propose private schools will become some kind of educational panacea. THEN, would the public be expected to pay tuition to parents who decide to homeschool their kids after a private school failure?

There's no question in my mind that vouchers are a bad idea. Not only would they allow just anybody into a private school, but they would give the government more control over private schools. I certainly don't want that. If the people who send their kids to public schools want better schools for their kids, they should get more involved. Obviously, our elected leaders (like Obama, for example) have little faith in the Public School system since most send their kids to private schools.

 

[KittenKoder]

I hated math and science classes. They were boring and none of it has ever matter even a tiny bit in real life except being able to add and subtract numbers which I have been able to do since I was 6 or 7 and didn't even learn in school.

I think there should be as much math and science as the student wants. If I'm not interested I shouldn't have had to sit through it. This would give more time and smaller class sizes for the kids that care about it.

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