aliens don't exist

[zaangalewa]

Considering the size of the universe, its age and the abundance of matter present it is a very real possibility that some other life exists oh has existed somewhere else in the universe.

... or not ...

And all matter is made up of mostly nothing yet here we are.

And let me add here: "self-organisation of matter" seems also not to be a main attribute of the matter which is organized in living structures. Twenty years ago for example everyone of us had used other atoms - nevertheless still everyone has nearly the same body which is only a little older. And the whole matter of the solar system shows not any tendence to transform itselve into living structures - everywhere is nearly always only dead matter. The only place for life in the solar system is our little blue planet. ... And it could be indeed the only place for life in the whole universe. ... We don't know.

 

[Flash]

Wrong.

But you assume that since you may have never seen something that that something doesn't exist

It is not just me, it is everybody.

The human race has never seen ANY proof of life outside of earth.

Until we do we have nothing and any ideas that it might exist elsewhere is pure speculation, most often fueled by the fantasy of Science Fiction.

Another thing to consider.

Our sun will last about 10 billion years. Life started about 500 million years ago.

In another few hundred million years the sun will start its expansion and rapidly kill all life on earth.

For the ten billion years the earth will exist life will exist only about one billion years. About 10% of the duration of the planet.

Advanced and intelligent life only a small fraction of that one billion years.

If we do find earth like planets somewhere there is only a one in ten chances we will see it at a time when life is present. A much smaller fraction of that to see advanced life. You know, advanced life like green Orion Slave Girls.

We may one day discover a planet just like earth but like earth was a couple of billion years ago with absolutely no life. Or like earth a billion years from now, with no life.

The chances of finding a galactic empire like we see in many science fiction stories? Nil!

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I understand very well the paradoxon of Zenon. It has absolutelly nothing to do with anything what I said here.

Wrong. You employ the same specious reasoning whenever you trot out your arbitrary nonsense about the probability of the existence of life on Earth. I explained it, in detail. You have not even attempted to address that explanation.

And it is ZENO

 

[Blues Man]

It is not just me, it is everybody.

The human race has never seen ANY proof of life outside of earth.

Until we do we have nothing and any ideas that it might exist elsewhere is pure speculation, most often fueled by the fantasy of Science Fiction.

Another thing to consider.

Our sun will last about 10 billion years. Life started about 500 million years ago.

In another few hundred million years the sun will start its expansion and rapidly kill all life on earth.

For the ten billion years the earth will exist life will exist only about one billion years. About 10% of the duration of the planet.

Advanced and intelligent life only a small fraction of that one billion years.

If we do find earth like planets somewhere there is only a one in ten chances we will see it at a time when life is present. A much smaller fraction of that to see advanced life. You know, advanced life like green Orion Slave Girls.

We may one day discover a planet just like earth but like earth was a couple of billion years ago with absolutely no life. Or like earth a billion years from now, with no life.

The chances of finding a galactic empire like we see in many science fiction stories? Nil!

So what?

You do realize that we know basically nothing about the vast majority of the universe don't you?

You might as well say since I never left my cave and have never seen an ocean that the ocean must not exist

 

[RoccoR]

RE: aliens don't exist
SUBTOPIC: Scientific-Based Beliefs 'vs' Faith-Based Beliefs
※→ Blues Man, et al,

Posting Reference: Posting No 98, Same Thread

A double conditional statement of fact as it is understood today: A claim is scientific IF and only IF it is produced by a proper application of the scientific method, and a discipline is scientific IF and only IF it is governed by the scientific method.

So what?

You do realize that we know basically nothing about the vast majority of the universe don't you?

You might as well say since I never left my cave and have never seen an ocean that the ocean must not exist

(COMMENT)

The question (True or False: aliens don't exist) our friend Blues Man addresses is a question of evidence and the eventual discovery of substantiating evidence. But like the famous "P versus NP" problem, it is questionable if the statement is even true. And the only way to know if it is true is to solve the question. The question (True or False: aliens don't exist) is a matter of probability. The numbers (in the Drake Equation) are so huge that it is almost impossible to imagine that some form of life evolved elsewhere in the universe. In fact, the numbers in the Milky Way Galaxy are so huge, that it is inconceivable that another form of life could not exist in our own galaxy.

I have to believe that the Blues Man argument is very viable. If there was ever a case for the application for the Principle of Sufficient Reason (PSR), the Blues Man has stated it. But the PSR in the Drake Equation has nothing to do with faith-based reasoning as may have been argued elsewhere in the thread.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Flash]

So what?

You do realize that we know basically nothing about the vast majority of the universe don't you?

You might as well say since I never left my cave and have never seen an ocean that the ocean must not exist

In the meantime we don't have jackshit.

Just fantasy,

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

In the meantime we don't have jackshit.

Just fantasy,

We have the fact that life formed at least once in the universe. And no good reason to think it did not happen at least twice. What more do you want? A rubber biscuit?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Even many of the top researchers in this field concluded that "aliens" are interdimensional beings, not extraterrestrial.

"Top researchers"

Could you point us to their published, peer-reviewed research?

 

[zaangalewa]

Wrong. You employ the same specious reasoning ...

No!!! Zenon had the problem that the mathematics in his time of history was not able to describe the physical problem which he liked to describe with mathematics - in a time and world where no one had any plan about that this really will work. The Greeks were unbelievable good in their view to essential problems. They often not had a solution - but a good direction. Today everyone - not only I - is easily able to say "Mathematics is the spirituality of physics" - without to have to found any new religion or belief. Also our Christian religion is by the way not only a Jewish religion - it's also a Greek religion - an answer on many questions the Greek "atheists" once had.

I use this "spirituality" now - thousands of years later - in a totally other way than Zenon did do and "pardon": Every idiot is able to see this! When some people speak for example about a self-organisation of matter and think the same time matter is the reason why we are here (and so we are able to be spiritual entities) then this is (perhaps) not wrong - but the same time we have to see the relations: Compare the mass of the biosphere on planet Earth with the mass of x solar systems then you see directly what is a "probability direction 0". On the other side are also x solar systems only a drop of water on a hot stone compared with the (unkown or even unknowable) mass of the universe. This shows very clear the "possibilties direction oo".

If you try to solve this problem ~0 * ~oo then you are able to see immediatelly that we are not able to calculate anything in this context. I yet said it to you: Make a program where you take a random number between 0..1 and multiply it with another random number 1..oo. This always gives a result - but no one is able to say which result.

Very simple example (of many examples) about the difficulties which we have: The Earth - nearly on a perfect circular path around the sun - is directly in the middle of a habitable zone. And means this now everywhere on planet Earth exist ideal conditions for all forms of life? Because of a little axial inclination will come winter and so water is freezing to ice. Death is all around. On the other side: seasons seem to be the same time also a motor for evolution. (This death of winter is often only sleeping for a while). But what do we really know in this context? This situation of the Earth is very special because we are a double planet system Earth+Moon - so the axial inclination is relativelly stable - since billions of years.

We will for sure know more when we will have found 100 planets with life. But still we don't have any clue whether such planets (¿which parameters do we really need?) exist at all and how to find this out. The argument "many possibilities" is only one side of the coin. The easy side. On the other side is written much more.

 

[zaangalewa]

We have the fact that life formed at least once in the universe. And no good reason to think it did not happen at least twice.

Why? If it did happen only on Earth - what's easily possible to be so - then we know very clear why god made us responsible for this planet. All others of our animalic sisters and brothers don't have the intellectual capacity to take this responsibility (="crown")

What more do you want? A rubber biscuit?

A robber biscuit sounds better. Without to know what it is I'm easily able to make one. But this is not so in case of a real extraterrestrial civilisation far from fairy tales ... ah sorry: far from science fiction stories.

 

[Blues Man]

In the meantime we don't have jackshit.

Just fantasy,

All I ever did was recognize the possibility something you are too thick headed to do.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Make a program where you take a random number between 0..1 and multiply it with another random number 1..oo. This always gives a result - but no one is able to say which result.

Off track again. You will always be multiplying numbers <1 by your specious reasoning. Yes, we know the eventual result: 0. Every time.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

If it did happen only on Earth - what's easily possible to be so - then we know very clear why god made us responsible for this planet.

That's not a good reason to think it only happened exactly once. That's about as far from a good reason as you could have provided.

Try again? What reason would we have to think life has evolved and will evolve only and exactly once in the lifetime of the universe?

There isn't any. So save yourself some time and admit that.

 

[zaangalewa]

That's not a good reason to think it only happened exactly once.

It is plausible that the solution of the problem "number of planets with life in the universe" = 1. It's also possible that the number is another number. But it would be wrong to say it could for example be all numbers between 1 and 1,000,000 so it should be 500,000. This woudl be only a self-delusional nonsense. And not far away is the answer it have to be "many". We know only the result is >=1 because we exist.

That's about as far from a good reason as you could have provided.

?

Try again?

What do you not understand? There is no try. Either we find aliens or they find us then we know what's going on. And as long as we don't find such a life or aliens don't find us we know nothing about.

What reason would we have to think life has evolved and will evolve only and exactly once in the lifetime of the universe?

What for heavens sake is so diffcult to understand from this what I said?

There isn't any.

I will not begin now to explain again why we are in principle in the moment don't know the answer.

So save yourself some time and admit that.

Show me an alien - then the answer is ">=2" but still the answer is ">=1". No one is able to say the result ">=1" means the result is not 1 only because more numbers exist.

 

[zaangalewa]

Off track again. You will always be multiplying numbers <1 by your specious reasoning. Yes, we know the eventual result: 0. Every time.

The result is not 0 - it is ">=1" because we know we exist. But it exist many many many variables which are totally out of our control and knowledge. We know for example that our solar system has a relativelly sharp transition where the solar wind stops and where the more dangerous interstellar radiation begins. So we live protected from the solar wind and we are alos protected againt this solar wind from our magnetic shield. And we are anyway protected because we are far from the center of the galaxy. All this conditions seem to be important. And the more and more and more conditions we find the more it looks like we got the very lucky ticket in the universal lottery. But we are not able to to see how lucky we are compared with ¿?¿?¿? .

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It is plausible that the solution of the problem "number of planets with life in the universe" = 1

It is also plausible that the Moon disappears and reappears 1 light year away via tunneling.

But it would be wrong to say it could for example be all numbers between 1 and 1,000,000 so it should be 500,000

Maybe, but we are talking about the possibility of it being any number > 1. You are the only one of the two of us arguing for the plausibility of it being EXACTLY ONE. so, in your set, your probability is 1/1,000,000. And the probability of it being >1 is 999,999/1,000,000.

So you are doing a pretty good job of making my points for me.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The result is not 0

The result absolutely does trend to zero. As it is asymptotic, it never reaches zero. You are multiplying numbers <1. Every single time you add another, you get closer to zero.

Which sums up the fallacy of your specious reasoning quite well.

 

[zaangalewa]

That's not a good reason to think it only happened exactly once. ...

I don't say this is a reason. I said "If it is so then ..." Under all circumstances - completely independent from such a question - we have to protect our living planet. If we don't do so then I will have to send someone to our father in the end of time to explain him "Sorry dad, we killed your living creation." Under no circumstances I will tell this to god on my own.

 

[zaangalewa]

It is also plausible that the Moon disappears and reappears 1 light year away via tunneling.

Bullshit.

 

[zaangalewa]

It is also plausible that the Moon disappears and reappears 1 light year away via tunneling.

Maybe, but we are talking about the possibility of it being any number > 1. You are the only one of the two of us arguing for the plausibility of it being EXACTLY ONE. so, in your set, your probability is 1/1,000,000. And the probability of it being >1 is 999,999/1,000,000.

So you are doing a pretty good job of making my points for me.

If you read what I wrote and you understood what I said then you lie now by being intentionally ignorant. To make something clear: It's a totally unimportant problem whether aliens exist or not.

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PS: I saw I forgot to correct in this text many of my spelling mistakes. Here is the text again:

It is plausible that the solution of the problem "number of planets with life in the universe" = 1. It's also possible that the number is another number. But it would be wrong to say it could for example be all numbers between 1 and 1,000,000 so it should be 500,000. This would be only a self-delusional nonsense. And not far away is the answer it have to be "many". We know only the result is >=1 because we exist.