Albert Einstein: Up Close and Personal!

[Hollie]

I hear that argument often but nobody ever provides any convincing evidence -- including you.

Let me google that for you

A List Of Biblical Contradictions
Biblical Contradictions
An Incredible Interactive Chart of Biblical Contradictions
The Thinking Atheist - | Bible Contradictions

I could post a list of links positing the opposite viewpoint. But since YOU have no arguments or evidence I must conclude that you're too lazy to think for yourself. Enjoy your bliss.

Interesting double standard you have there. You require others provide evidence in connection with challenges to obvious biblical contradictions and absurdities yet you insist that your claims in defense of those contradictions and absurdities are exempt from the standards of evidence.

 

[Hollie]

The Bible warns us to make sure the "spirit" are from Him:

1 John 4:1, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

Looks like you may have fallen for the false doctrines of the false prophets. There's still time to cast aside any falsehoods and accept Christ's truth.

Using a false doctrine, the bibles, to prove the bibles true is an old ploy of religionists and a waste of time.

You cast aside Christianity and accept Islam which is the final revelation from the gods. We know this to be true because Mo' said so.

You want them to be false doctrine but you don't know if they are or not. You're just guessing based on your hatred for all things Christian. I see that Buddhism, Islam, Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, and many other religious beliefs lack the total control and power that Christianity has over you. Every time I see you in the religious section I know that it's because Christianity eats at you with great fervor. You're deeply attracted to the topic.

That's the mind altering meds talkin'.

Like so many extremists, you become incensed at challenges to your dogmatic beliefs. Did you expect to post your beliefs on a public discussion board and not have anyone take exception?

Did you expect to dismiss other religions as false while maintaining Christianity as true when your only claim to authority is "because I say so"?

If your gods are rationally demonstrable then Ok, let's see the preponderance of evidence, and let's apply critical thinking to it and see if it withstands scrutiny. As a matter of course, everything that you delineate in your appeals to gods we must also (in order to be fair and impartial) hold supernaturalism against by way of standard. But you have no standards. You have a bully pulpit from which you feel an entitlement to denigrate others who don't hare your extremist beliefs. You despise knowledge and enlightenment because they contradict ignorance and submission required by your religion.

Biblically/scripturally speaking, your gods don't want us to discover-- they couldn't care less, and in fact punishes men for trying to attain knowledge they consider threatening (Tree of Knowledge, Tower of Babel) -- and in fact they tell us to not worry about where our meals will come from (the lilies of the field). No, Jehovah wants faith and adoration. That's it. There's not a single instance of De' hey-zeus saying,

"Consider your beliefs. Think them through. Scrutinize, and doubt claims of absolute authority without proof and support". In fact, he says precisely the opposite.

Matthew 8:13 - And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Matthew 9:28 - And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

Matthew 18:6 - But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mark 9:23 - Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Mark 9:24 - And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Mark 11:23 - For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Mark 11:24 - Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

1 Corinthians 13:7 - Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

(etc, etc, etc)

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

This is where you have wandered into silliness.

There has never been and never shall be a human being who was God or became God either before during or after their human existence.

God is incorporeal, he has no physical shape or material form. Jesus said that God is the source of his existence. Any being whose source is God cannot be God.

If God revealed himself in the person of Jesus Christ it was through his word that Jesus received like manna from heaven that became his own flesh, a body of teaching, given for the life of the world, a revelation about the only right way to understand and comply with the divine commands that leads to the eternal life promised for obedience that had been lost to time ever since the death of Moses..

The key is given in the first chapter of John where it clearly states that the word of God became flesh, a metaphor for teaching, in the person of Jesus Christ.

This did not make Jesus God anymore than receiving the words of God made Moses or any of the other prophets who learned from God and spoke for him God..

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Isaiah 9:6, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

A God Who is able to create an entire universe and all life on it can visit His creation in a vessel of His own creation. Not hard to understand.

That is simply untrue.

God is incorporeal and has no material shape or physical form. It is impossible that God would become something that he is not and what a human being could never be.

The word became flesh is simply the author establishing that flesh is a metaphor for teaching from God in words that are both spirit and life that came into the world through Jesus in what he said was his own flesh, a metaphor for the body of teaching that was from God and received in him.

and as far as 'he shall be called mighty god', being called mighty god is not the same thing as actually being God.

There never was and never shall be a human being that was God or became God either before, during or after their human existence.

The entire teaching of the torah is a testimony against the lie prevalent in the ancient world that a human being could also be a god.

If you don't know that you don't know your A, B, C's.

The Word became flesh, God came to earth in the form of a man in order to show the relationship man was to hold to God, and by His death and resurrection He can put any man into that relationship. He has redeemed us from the curse of sin and death and all that receive him will receive eternal life. What Satan robbed Adam and Eve of in the Garden is what God came to restore through sending The Word. ( His Son) The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus is referred to as the second Adam for this reason.

He came down here and lived our life in a human body like ours to show us the way. He died on the cross for our sins because by shedding His blood - the bloodtype of his father - not human blood - he could redeem those who called upon His Name. Jesus didn't come as a miraculous being out of heaven. His dependency was upon the Father and the Holy Spirit at all times and he came as a man. He said, I can do nothing apart from my Father. Through Him by the Power of the Holy Spirit we can walk as Jesus walked and do the works he did. In fact, Jesus said, Greater works shall ye do because I go to my Father. Read Romans 10: 9,10 and hear the plan of salvation tonight.

 

[DriftingSand]

You can produce links explaining how obvious contradictions really aren't contradictions? Please do. I really need to see how Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John each had Jesus giving different last statements, but how they actually said exactly the same thing.

Many scholars have proven that the so-called contradictions aren't contradictions. Can't help it if you choose to squeeze your eyes and believe your preconceptions. Show me some proof and I'll respond.

 

[DriftingSand]

Using a false doctrine, the bibles, to prove the bibles true is an old ploy of religionists and a waste of time.

You cast aside Christianity and accept Islam which is the final revelation from the gods. We know this to be true because Mo' said so.

You want them to be false doctrine but you don't know if they are or not. You're just guessing based on your hatred for all things Christian. I see that Buddhism, Islam, Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, and many other religious beliefs lack the total control and power that Christianity has over you. Every time I see you in the religious section I know that it's because Christianity eats at you with great fervor. You're deeply attracted to the topic.

That's the mind altering meds talkin'.

Like so many extremists, you become incensed at challenges to your dogmatic beliefs. Did you expect to post your beliefs on a public discussion board and not have anyone take exception?

Did you expect to dismiss other religions as false while maintaining Christianity as true when your only claim to authority is "because I say so"?

If your gods are rationally demonstrable then Ok, let's see the preponderance of evidence, and let's apply critical thinking to it and see if it withstands scrutiny. As a matter of course, everything that you delineate in your appeals to gods we must also (in order to be fair and impartial) hold supernaturalism against by way of standard. But you have no standards. You have a bully pulpit from which you feel an entitlement to denigrate others who don't hare your extremist beliefs. You despise knowledge and enlightenment because they contradict ignorance and submission required by your religion.

Biblically/scripturally speaking, your gods don't want us to discover-- they couldn't care less, and in fact punishes men for trying to attain knowledge they consider threatening (Tree of Knowledge, Tower of Babel) -- and in fact they tell us to not worry about where our meals will come from (the lilies of the field). No, Jehovah wants faith and adoration. That's it. There's not a single instance of De' hey-zeus saying,

"Consider your beliefs. Think them through. Scrutinize, and doubt claims of absolute authority without proof and support". In fact, he says precisely the opposite.

Matthew 8:13 - And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Matthew 9:28 - And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

Matthew 18:6 - But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mark 9:23 - Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Mark 9:24 - And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Mark 11:23 - For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Mark 11:24 - Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

1 Corinthians 13:7 - Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

(etc, etc, etc)

God wouldn't be God if His rules weren't supreme. He has given mankind a choice -- follow Him or follow another path. He won't stop anyone or force anyone to take one path or the other. However, he has given ample notice as to the rewards and punishments for either choosing correctly or wrongly. So nobody has an excuse. If you've chosen to ignore Him then so be it but don't get angry that your fate is sealed (as long as you continue on your current path). It's not God's fault that you chose to follow Satan (the adversary).

"Bully pulpit?" That's like the pot calling the kettle black. You have no wiggle room in that department. You are totally intolerant of Christianity (primarily) and any other believe that doesn't fit in your tiny, self-formed paradigm. As the old saying goes ... when you point one finger you have three pointing back.

The verses you posted are instances where unfaltering faith is required. I've had many prayers answered over the years. Nothing strange or unusual about a faithful believer receiving answers to prayers.

 

[thebrucebeat]

Clear as mud to YOU. Clear as spring water to me.

But historically a theological cluster.

All under God's control. The finished product is all that counts. The Bible provides the believer everything he or she needs to know to be saved. In the end ... that's all that matters.

So it provides solice to the believer?
Anything that one already believes brings solice to read it. So what? Mein Kampf brought solice to those that believed it.
What does it bring to the non-believer, or the honest seeker?
There is where the test is.

 

[thebrucebeat]

No you're not.


You're just too stupid to be embarrassed.

Actually I am very embarrassed, for you.
Why do you need a spirituality in your life to be as hateful as you are? How does one serve the other?

I could be nicer if you could be smarter.

So I control your behavior?
Interesting.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Actually I am very embarrassed, for you.
Why do you need a spirituality in your life to be as hateful as you are? How does one serve the other?

I could be nicer if you could be smarter.

So I control your behavior?
Interesting.

thebrucebeaten

 

[DriftingSand]

But historically a theological cluster.

All under God's control. The finished product is all that counts. The Bible provides the believer everything he or she needs to know to be saved. In the end ... that's all that matters.

So it provides solice to the believer?
Anything that one already believes brings solice to read it. So what? Mein Kampf brought solice to those that believed it.
What does it bring to the non-believer, or the honest seeker?
There is where the test is.

It doesn't necessarily bring solace to the believer. Satan and demons believe but are not comforted by the Bible. To the follower of Christ it can bring solace but it can also convict us of our sin and draw a sense of repentance. It can bring up many different emotions.

I've never read Mein Kampf but I have a feeling that it brought up anger, fury, and wrath more than a sense of solace.

An "honest seeker" wouldn't discard the Bible without first seeking the Holy Spirit. So it's my opinion that anyone who simply cherry picks those portions of the Bible that they don't like aren't really "truth seekers" to begin with.

 

[Hollie]

You want them to be false doctrine but you don't know if they are or not. You're just guessing based on your hatred for all things Christian. I see that Buddhism, Islam, Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, and many other religious beliefs lack the total control and power that Christianity has over you. Every time I see you in the religious section I know that it's because Christianity eats at you with great fervor. You're deeply attracted to the topic.

That's the mind altering meds talkin'.

Like so many extremists, you become incensed at challenges to your dogmatic beliefs. Did you expect to post your beliefs on a public discussion board and not have anyone take exception?

Did you expect to dismiss other religions as false while maintaining Christianity as true when your only claim to authority is "because I say so"?

If your gods are rationally demonstrable then Ok, let's see the preponderance of evidence, and let's apply critical thinking to it and see if it withstands scrutiny. As a matter of course, everything that you delineate in your appeals to gods we must also (in order to be fair and impartial) hold supernaturalism against by way of standard. But you have no standards. You have a bully pulpit from which you feel an entitlement to denigrate others who don't hare your extremist beliefs. You despise knowledge and enlightenment because they contradict ignorance and submission required by your religion.

Biblically/scripturally speaking, your gods don't want us to discover-- they couldn't care less, and in fact punishes men for trying to attain knowledge they consider threatening (Tree of Knowledge, Tower of Babel) -- and in fact they tell us to not worry about where our meals will come from (the lilies of the field). No, Jehovah wants faith and adoration. That's it. There's not a single instance of De' hey-zeus saying,

"Consider your beliefs. Think them through. Scrutinize, and doubt claims of absolute authority without proof and support". In fact, he says precisely the opposite.

Matthew 8:13 - And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Matthew 9:28 - And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

Matthew 18:6 - But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mark 9:23 - Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Mark 9:24 - And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Mark 11:23 - For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Mark 11:24 - Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

1 Corinthians 13:7 - Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

(etc, etc, etc)

God wouldn't be God if His rules weren't supreme. He has given mankind a choice -- follow Him or follow another path. He won't stop anyone or force anyone to take one path or the other. However, he has given ample notice as to the rewards and punishments for either choosing correctly or wrongly. So nobody has an excuse. If you've chosen to ignore Him then so be it but don't get angry that your fate is sealed (as long as you continue on your current path). It's not God's fault that you chose to follow Satan (the adversary).

All of the above is simply reciting dogma. You have made no case for your gods as opposed to other conceptions of gods and there is no reason to believe your gods have made any "rules".

Further, your not-so-subtle hints suggesting your gods are going to "seal my fate" is illustrative of the belligerent and antagonistic attitude of fundamentalists. Sounds like a threat... The utterly adolescent insecurity of religious zealots over any perceived criticism of their faith is pathetic.

"Bully pulpit?" That's like the pot calling the kettle black. You have no wiggle room in that department. You are totally intolerant of Christianity (primarily) and any other believe that doesn't fit in your tiny, self-formed paradigm. As the old saying goes ... when you point one finger you have three pointing back.

Bad analogy. I'm not the one issuing threats on behalf of any gods. I offer no veiled comments about destruction of mankind as your gods are claimed to have done. I offer no hope of return of your serial mass-murderer gods who plan to use fire to wipe humanity from the planet (what is that, a recitation of a biblical claim, a wish, or a threat? Given the context of christianity, you tell me).

The verses you posted are instances where unfaltering faith is required. I've had many prayers answered over the years. Nothing strange or unusual about a faithful believer receiving answers to prayers.

Unfaltering (unquestioning) faith is required within the fundamentalist worldview because reason and rationality trumps unquestioning faith.

Faith comes from misperceptions, logical errors, and emotional biases. If they didn’t, then faith would be rational and it would no longer be faith. I'm afraid You don't even have a definition of reason, just some abstract term you call "faith". Reason is both individual and collective -- when it’s collective, it becomes knowledge.

The fundamentalist has a partisan ‘divine revelation”, whatever that revelation might be. If someday it’s discovered that there is a mode of perception that is better than reason and/or accessible to humans, then I’m happy to include it in my model. But you haven’t established that (no one has) and so I’m not about to accept that your claims that reason is limited or fallible are true when you don’t know that for a fact. As knowledge is gained, reason gains more and more of a foothold, while faith and your completely subjective interpretation of partisan gods don’t.

 

[DriftingSand]

You want them to be false doctrine but you don't know if they are or not. You're just guessing based on your hatred for all things Christian. I see that Buddhism, Islam, Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, and many other religious beliefs lack the total control and power that Christianity has over you. Every time I see you in the religious section I know that it's because Christianity eats at you with great fervor. You're deeply attracted to the topic.

That's the mind altering meds talkin'.

Like so many extremists, you become incensed at challenges to your dogmatic beliefs. Did you expect to post your beliefs on a public discussion board and not have anyone take exception?

Did you expect to dismiss other religions as false while maintaining Christianity as true when your only claim to authority is "because I say so"?

If your gods are rationally demonstrable then Ok, let's see the preponderance of evidence, and let's apply critical thinking to it and see if it withstands scrutiny. As a matter of course, everything that you delineate in your appeals to gods we must also (in order to be fair and impartial) hold supernaturalism against by way of standard. But you have no standards. You have a bully pulpit from which you feel an entitlement to denigrate others who don't hare your extremist beliefs. You despise knowledge and enlightenment because they contradict ignorance and submission required by your religion.

Biblically/scripturally speaking, your gods don't want us to discover-- they couldn't care less, and in fact punishes men for trying to attain knowledge they consider threatening (Tree of Knowledge, Tower of Babel) -- and in fact they tell us to not worry about where our meals will come from (the lilies of the field). No, Jehovah wants faith and adoration. That's it. There's not a single instance of De' hey-zeus saying,

"Consider your beliefs. Think them through. Scrutinize, and doubt claims of absolute authority without proof and support". In fact, he says precisely the opposite.

Matthew 8:13 - And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Matthew 9:28 - And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

Matthew 18:6 - But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mark 9:23 - Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Mark 9:24 - And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Mark 11:23 - For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Mark 11:24 - Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

1 Corinthians 13:7 - Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

(etc, etc, etc)

All of the above is simply reciting dogma. You have made no case for your gods as opposed to other conceptions of gods and there is no reason to believe your gods have made any "rules".

Further, your not-so-subtle hints suggesting your gods are going to "seal my fate" is illustrative of the belligerent and antagonistic attitude of fundamentalists. Sounds like a threat... The utterly adolescent insecurity of religious zealots over any perceived criticism of their faith is pathetic.

"Bully pulpit?" That's like the pot calling the kettle black. You have no wiggle room in that department. You are totally intolerant of Christianity (primarily) and any other believe that doesn't fit in your tiny, self-formed paradigm. As the old saying goes ... when you point one finger you have three pointing back.

Bad analogy. I'm not the one issuing threats on behalf of any gods. I offer no veiled comments about destruction of mankind as your gods are claimed to have done. I offer no hope of return of your serial mass-murderer gods who plan to use fire to wipe humanity from the planet (what is that, a recitation of a biblical claim, a wish, or a threat? Given the context of christianity, you tell me).

The verses you posted are instances where unfaltering faith is required. I've had many prayers answered over the years. Nothing strange or unusual about a faithful believer receiving answers to prayers.

Unfaltering (unquestioning) faith is required within the fundamentalist worldview because reason and rationality trumps unquestioning faith.

Faith comes from misperceptions, logical errors, and emotional biases. If they didn’t, then faith would be rational and it would no longer be faith. I'm afraid You don't even have a definition of reason, just some abstract term you call "faith". Reason is both individual and collective -- when it’s collective, it becomes knowledge.

The fundamentalist has a partisan ‘divine revelation”, whatever that revelation might be. If someday it’s discovered that there is a mode of perception that is better than reason and/or accessible to humans, then I’m happy to include it in my model. But you haven’t established that (no one has) and so I’m not about to accept that your claims that reason is limited or fallible are true when you don’t know that for a fact. As knowledge is gained, reason gains more and more of a foothold, while faith and your completely subjective interpretation of partisan gods don’t.

The "arguments" you use can easily be turned around and used against your "dogma." Like it or not ... you are dogmatic where your personal beliefs are concerned. The difference between mine and yours is that I base mine on a belief system that has existed for thousands of years while you base yours on your personal emotions and opinions.

Here's my train of thought:

1) It makes more sense to believe that something created everything than to believe that nothing created everything.
2) The universe is ordered. Chaos does not produce order so our ordered universe is a reflection of precise planning rather than random, chaotic events.
3) Planning requires intelligence; therefore, the Planner was intelligent.
4) For every effect there was a cause. Our ordered universe exists therefore it was caused.
5) The first cause cannot be caused. That means that the first cause is eternal.
6) The eternal first cause was/is intelligent and has the ability to plan.
7) An intelligent being with the ability to plan caused the universe.
8) I call this intelligent planner - God.
9) An intelligent planner (God) would not cause a universe without a purpose.
10) There must be a purpose to the ordered universe for chaos doesn't create order or purpose.
11) It makes sense that a God that creates an ordered universe with a purpose would wish to communicate His will and purpose to His creation.
12) The Bible (in my opinion) offers the best explanation of God's purpose and will for mankind. It has been a powerful force in the lives of millions over the course of centuries. Even today it's powerfully controversial and alters the lives of folks who accept it and who reject it.

This is a basic summary explaining how and why I accept the one God (the one first cause). Couple this with the fact that Jesus Christ rescued me from a life of alcoholism and drug abuse (a living nightmare) and I am convinced that He is true and real.

 

[Hollie]

That's the mind altering meds talkin'.

Like so many extremists, you become incensed at challenges to your dogmatic beliefs. Did you expect to post your beliefs on a public discussion board and not have anyone take exception?

Did you expect to dismiss other religions as false while maintaining Christianity as true when your only claim to authority is "because I say so"?

If your gods are rationally demonstrable then Ok, let's see the preponderance of evidence, and let's apply critical thinking to it and see if it withstands scrutiny. As a matter of course, everything that you delineate in your appeals to gods we must also (in order to be fair and impartial) hold supernaturalism against by way of standard. But you have no standards. You have a bully pulpit from which you feel an entitlement to denigrate others who don't hare your extremist beliefs. You despise knowledge and enlightenment because they contradict ignorance and submission required by your religion.

Biblically/scripturally speaking, your gods don't want us to discover-- they couldn't care less, and in fact punishes men for trying to attain knowledge they consider threatening (Tree of Knowledge, Tower of Babel) -- and in fact they tell us to not worry about where our meals will come from (the lilies of the field). No, Jehovah wants faith and adoration. That's it. There's not a single instance of De' hey-zeus saying,

"Consider your beliefs. Think them through. Scrutinize, and doubt claims of absolute authority without proof and support". In fact, he says precisely the opposite.

Matthew 8:13 - And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Matthew 9:28 - And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

Matthew 18:6 - But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mark 9:23 - Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Mark 9:24 - And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Mark 11:23 - For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Mark 11:24 - Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

1 Corinthians 13:7 - Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

(etc, etc, etc)

All of the above is simply reciting dogma. You have made no case for your gods as opposed to other conceptions of gods and there is no reason to believe your gods have made any "rules".

Further, your not-so-subtle hints suggesting your gods are going to "seal my fate" is illustrative of the belligerent and antagonistic attitude of fundamentalists. Sounds like a threat... The utterly adolescent insecurity of religious zealots over any perceived criticism of their faith is pathetic.



Bad analogy. I'm not the one issuing threats on behalf of any gods. I offer no veiled comments about destruction of mankind as your gods are claimed to have done. I offer no hope of return of your serial mass-murderer gods who plan to use fire to wipe humanity from the planet (what is that, a recitation of a biblical claim, a wish, or a threat? Given the context of christianity, you tell me).

The verses you posted are instances where unfaltering faith is required. I've had many prayers answered over the years. Nothing strange or unusual about a faithful believer receiving answers to prayers.

Unfaltering (unquestioning) faith is required within the fundamentalist worldview because reason and rationality trumps unquestioning faith.

Faith comes from misperceptions, logical errors, and emotional biases. If they didn’t, then faith would be rational and it would no longer be faith. I'm afraid You don't even have a definition of reason, just some abstract term you call "faith". Reason is both individual and collective -- when it’s collective, it becomes knowledge.

The fundamentalist has a partisan ‘divine revelation”, whatever that revelation might be. If someday it’s discovered that there is a mode of perception that is better than reason and/or accessible to humans, then I’m happy to include it in my model. But you haven’t established that (no one has) and so I’m not about to accept that your claims that reason is limited or fallible are true when you don’t know that for a fact. As knowledge is gained, reason gains more and more of a foothold, while faith and your completely subjective interpretation of partisan gods don’t.

The "arguments" you use can easily be turned around and used against your "dogma." Like it or not ... you are dogmatic where your personal beliefs are concerned. The difference between mine and yours is that I base mine on a belief system that has existed for thousands of years while you base yours on your personal emotions and opinions.

Here's my train of thought:

1) It makes more sense to believe that something created everything than to believe that nothing created everything.
2) The universe is ordered. Chaos does not produce order so our ordered universe is a reflection of precise planning rather than random, chaotic events.
3) Planning requires intelligence; therefore, the Planner was intelligent.
4) For every effect there was a cause. Our ordered universe exists therefore it was caused.
5) The first cause cannot be caused. That means that the first cause is eternal.
6) The eternal first cause was/is intelligent and has the ability to plan.
7) An intelligent being with the ability to plan caused the universe.
8) I call this intelligent planner - God.
9) An intelligent planner (God) would not cause a universe without a purpose.
10) There must be a purpose to the ordered universe for chaos doesn't create order or purpose.
11) It makes sense that a God that creates an ordered universe with a purpose would wish to communicate His will and purpose to His creation.
12) The Bible (in my opinion) offers the best explanation of God's purpose and will for mankind. It has been a powerful force in the lives of millions over the course of centuries. Even today it's powerfully controversial and alters the lives of folks who accept it and who reject it.

This is a basic summary explaining how and why I accept the one God (the one first cause). Couple this with the fact that Jesus Christ rescued me from a life of alcoholism and drug abuse (a living nightmare) and I am convinced that He is true and real.

You have some rather odd notions about dogma. I hold no beliefs about supernatural entities using magical means as the basis for existence. I have no personal beliefs as to gods being extant. If you have some evidence for supernaturalism that can somehow point to the gods that predominate in westernern civilization superceding the gods that predominate in Eastern cultures, you should present them. But of course, you cannot.

Secondly, belief in your partisan gods for no other reason than "they've been around for a long time" is juvenile and pointless. You should therefore abandon the gods that predominate in the West and accept Buddhism because as a belief system, it is much older.

For that matter, you should accept Isis as your god - worshipped for 5,000 years, so according to your "standards", you have believed in the wrong gods.

 

[DriftingSand]

All of the above is simply reciting dogma. You have made no case for your gods as opposed to other conceptions of gods and there is no reason to believe your gods have made any "rules".

Further, your not-so-subtle hints suggesting your gods are going to "seal my fate" is illustrative of the belligerent and antagonistic attitude of fundamentalists. Sounds like a threat... The utterly adolescent insecurity of religious zealots over any perceived criticism of their faith is pathetic.



Bad analogy. I'm not the one issuing threats on behalf of any gods. I offer no veiled comments about destruction of mankind as your gods are claimed to have done. I offer no hope of return of your serial mass-murderer gods who plan to use fire to wipe humanity from the planet (what is that, a recitation of a biblical claim, a wish, or a threat? Given the context of christianity, you tell me).






Unfaltering (unquestioning) faith is required within the fundamentalist worldview because reason and rationality trumps unquestioning faith.

Faith comes from misperceptions, logical errors, and emotional biases. If they didn’t, then faith would be rational and it would no longer be faith. I'm afraid You don't even have a definition of reason, just some abstract term you call "faith". Reason is both individual and collective -- when it’s collective, it becomes knowledge.

The fundamentalist has a partisan ‘divine revelation”, whatever that revelation might be. If someday it’s discovered that there is a mode of perception that is better than reason and/or accessible to humans, then I’m happy to include it in my model. But you haven’t established that (no one has) and so I’m not about to accept that your claims that reason is limited or fallible are true when you don’t know that for a fact. As knowledge is gained, reason gains more and more of a foothold, while faith and your completely subjective interpretation of partisan gods don’t.

The "arguments" you use can easily be turned around and used against your "dogma." Like it or not ... you are dogmatic where your personal beliefs are concerned. The difference between mine and yours is that I base mine on a belief system that has existed for thousands of years while you base yours on your personal emotions and opinions.

Here's my train of thought:

1) It makes more sense to believe that something created everything than to believe that nothing created everything.
2) The universe is ordered. Chaos does not produce order so our ordered universe is a reflection of precise planning rather than random, chaotic events.
3) Planning requires intelligence; therefore, the Planner was intelligent.
4) For every effect there was a cause. Our ordered universe exists therefore it was caused.
5) The first cause cannot be caused. That means that the first cause is eternal.
6) The eternal first cause was/is intelligent and has the ability to plan.
7) An intelligent being with the ability to plan caused the universe.
8) I call this intelligent planner - God.
9) An intelligent planner (God) would not cause a universe without a purpose.
10) There must be a purpose to the ordered universe for chaos doesn't create order or purpose.
11) It makes sense that a God that creates an ordered universe with a purpose would wish to communicate His will and purpose to His creation.
12) The Bible (in my opinion) offers the best explanation of God's purpose and will for mankind. It has been a powerful force in the lives of millions over the course of centuries. Even today it's powerfully controversial and alters the lives of folks who accept it and who reject it.

This is a basic summary explaining how and why I accept the one God (the one first cause). Couple this with the fact that Jesus Christ rescued me from a life of alcoholism and drug abuse (a living nightmare) and I am convinced that He is true and real.

You have some rather odd notions about dogma. I hold no beliefs about supernatural entities using magical means as the basis for existence. I have no personal beliefs as to gods being extant. If you have some evidence for supernaturalism that can somehow point to the gods that predominate in westernern civilization superceding the gods that predominate in Eastern cultures, you should present them. But of course, you cannot.

Secondly, belief in your partisan gods for no other reason than "they've been around for a long time" is juvenile and pointless. You should therefore abandon the gods that predominate in the West and accept Buddhism because as a belief system, it is much older.

For that matter, you should accept Isis as your god - worshipped for 5,000 years, so according to your "standards", you have believed in the wrong gods.

First you say that I have no rational reason for belief in the biblical God over the others then you completely skim past my rationale and logical reasoning presented. This tells me that you're simply interested in arguing for the sake of argument.

"Dogma" does not have to be religious in nature. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you own a dictionary. Perhaps you should blow the dust off of it and turn to the "D" section. That would be after "C" and before "E." Then, turn the page until you arrive at the word "dogma." Well ... I'll just save you the time and monumental effort:

dog·ma [dawg-muh, dog-] Show IPA
noun, plural dog·mas or ( Rare ) dog·ma·ta [dawg-muh-tuh] Show IPA .
1.
an official system of principles or tenets concerning faith, morals, behavior, etc., as of a church. Synonyms: doctrine, teachings, set of beliefs, philosophy.
2.
a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption; the recently defined dogma of papal infallibility. Synonyms: tenet, canon, law.
3.
prescribed doctrine proclaimed as unquestionably true by a particular group: the difficulty of resisting political dogma.
4.
a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle: the classic dogma of objectivity in scientific observation. Synonyms: conviction, certainty.

Dogma | Define Dogma at Dictionary.com

So you see ... your "settled" belief that the Bible and the God of the Bible CANNOT possibly be true is your personal "dogma."

 

[Hollie]

The "arguments" you use can easily be turned around and used against your "dogma." Like it or not ... you are dogmatic where your personal beliefs are concerned. The difference between mine and yours is that I base mine on a belief system that has existed for thousands of years while you base yours on your personal emotions and opinions.

Here's my train of thought:

1) It makes more sense to believe that something created everything than to believe that nothing created everything.
2) The universe is ordered. Chaos does not produce order so our ordered universe is a reflection of precise planning rather than random, chaotic events.
3) Planning requires intelligence; therefore, the Planner was intelligent.
4) For every effect there was a cause. Our ordered universe exists therefore it was caused.
5) The first cause cannot be caused. That means that the first cause is eternal.
6) The eternal first cause was/is intelligent and has the ability to plan.
7) An intelligent being with the ability to plan caused the universe.
8) I call this intelligent planner - God.
9) An intelligent planner (God) would not cause a universe without a purpose.
10) There must be a purpose to the ordered universe for chaos doesn't create order or purpose.
11) It makes sense that a God that creates an ordered universe with a purpose would wish to communicate His will and purpose to His creation.
12) The Bible (in my opinion) offers the best explanation of God's purpose and will for mankind. It has been a powerful force in the lives of millions over the course of centuries. Even today it's powerfully controversial and alters the lives of folks who accept it and who reject it.

This is a basic summary explaining how and why I accept the one God (the one first cause). Couple this with the fact that Jesus Christ rescued me from a life of alcoholism and drug abuse (a living nightmare) and I am convinced that He is true and real.

You have some rather odd notions about dogma. I hold no beliefs about supernatural entities using magical means as the basis for existence. I have no personal beliefs as to gods being extant. If you have some evidence for supernaturalism that can somehow point to the gods that predominate in westernern civilization superceding the gods that predominate in Eastern cultures, you should present them. But of course, you cannot.

Secondly, belief in your partisan gods for no other reason than "they've been around for a long time" is juvenile and pointless. You should therefore abandon the gods that predominate in the West and accept Buddhism because as a belief system, it is much older.

For that matter, you should accept Isis as your god - worshipped for 5,000 years, so according to your "standards", you have believed in the wrong gods.

First you say that I have no rational reason for belief in the biblical God over the others then you completely skim past my rationale and logical reasoning presented. This tells me that you're simply interested in arguing for the sake of argument.

"Dogma" does not have to be religious in nature. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you own a dictionary. Perhaps you should blow the dust off of it and turn to the "D" section. That would be after "C" and before "E." Then, turn the page until you arrive at the word "dogma." Well ... I'll just save you the time and monumental effort:

dog·ma [dawg-muh, dog-] Show IPA
noun, plural dog·mas or ( Rare ) dog·ma·ta [dawg-muh-tuh] Show IPA .
1.
an official system of principles or tenets concerning faith, morals, behavior, etc., as of a church. Synonyms: doctrine, teachings, set of beliefs, philosophy.
2.
a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption; the recently defined dogma of papal infallibility. Synonyms: tenet, canon, law.
3.
prescribed doctrine proclaimed as unquestionably true by a particular group: the difficulty of resisting political dogma.
4.
a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle: the classic dogma of objectivity in scientific observation. Synonyms: conviction, certainty.

Dogma | Define Dogma at Dictionary.com

So you see ... your "settled" belief that the Bible and the God of the Bible CANNOT possibly be true is your personal "dogma."

What is "logical" about belief in supernaturalism and magic? And secondly, you "logically" did nothing but accept the gods that predominate in the West vs. gods that predominate in other cultures. You did nothing but accept the gods currently in vogue.

 

[PoliticalChic]

You have some rather odd notions about dogma. I hold no beliefs about supernatural entities using magical means as the basis for existence. I have no personal beliefs as to gods being extant. If you have some evidence for supernaturalism that can somehow point to the gods that predominate in westernern civilization superceding the gods that predominate in Eastern cultures, you should present them. But of course, you cannot.

Secondly, belief in your partisan gods for no other reason than "they've been around for a long time" is juvenile and pointless. You should therefore abandon the gods that predominate in the West and accept Buddhism because as a belief system, it is much older.

For that matter, you should accept Isis as your god - worshipped for 5,000 years, so according to your "standards", you have believed in the wrong gods.

First you say that I have no rational reason for belief in the biblical God over the others then you completely skim past my rationale and logical reasoning presented. This tells me that you're simply interested in arguing for the sake of argument.

"Dogma" does not have to be religious in nature. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you own a dictionary. Perhaps you should blow the dust off of it and turn to the "D" section. That would be after "C" and before "E." Then, turn the page until you arrive at the word "dogma." Well ... I'll just save you the time and monumental effort:

dog·ma [dawg-muh, dog-] Show IPA
noun, plural dog·mas or ( Rare ) dog·ma·ta [dawg-muh-tuh] Show IPA .
1.
an official system of principles or tenets concerning faith, morals, behavior, etc., as of a church. Synonyms: doctrine, teachings, set of beliefs, philosophy.
2.
a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption; the recently defined dogma of papal infallibility. Synonyms: tenet, canon, law.
3.
prescribed doctrine proclaimed as unquestionably true by a particular group: the difficulty of resisting political dogma.
4.
a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle: the classic dogma of objectivity in scientific observation. Synonyms: conviction, certainty.

Dogma | Define Dogma at Dictionary.com

So you see ... your "settled" belief that the Bible and the God of the Bible CANNOT possibly be true is your personal "dogma."

What is "logical" about belief in supernaturalism and magic? And secondly, you "logically" did nothing but accept the gods that predominate in the West vs. gods that predominate in other cultures. You did nothing but accept the gods currently in vogue.

Certainly no less logical than espousing a certain 'scientific' belief....that the universe was created from nothing.

 

[Hollie]

First you say that I have no rational reason for belief in the biblical God over the others then you completely skim past my rationale and logical reasoning presented. This tells me that you're simply interested in arguing for the sake of argument.

"Dogma" does not have to be religious in nature. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you own a dictionary. Perhaps you should blow the dust off of it and turn to the "D" section. That would be after "C" and before "E." Then, turn the page until you arrive at the word "dogma." Well ... I'll just save you the time and monumental effort:


Dogma | Define Dogma at Dictionary.com

So you see ... your "settled" belief that the Bible and the God of the Bible CANNOT possibly be true is your personal "dogma."

What is "logical" about belief in supernaturalism and magic? And secondly, you "logically" did nothing but accept the gods that predominate in the West vs. gods that predominate in other cultures. You did nothing but accept the gods currently in vogue.

Certainly no less logical than espousing a certain 'scientific' belief....that the universe was created from nothing.

You should confine your participation in these threads to cutting and pasting "quotes" from Harun Yahya.

The universe was not created from nothing but from a disturbance to matter and energy so-named the Big Bang.

 

[PoliticalChic]

What is "logical" about belief in supernaturalism and magic? And secondly, you "logically" did nothing but accept the gods that predominate in the West vs. gods that predominate in other cultures. You did nothing but accept the gods currently in vogue.

Certainly no less logical than espousing a certain 'scientific' belief....that the universe was created from nothing.

You should confine your participation in these threads to cutting and pasting "quotes" from Harun Yahya.

The universe was not created from nothing but from a disturbance to matter and energy so-named the Big Bang.

I have provided proof from physicists that the claim is that the the universe came from nothing.

In fact, that is the title of Lawrence Krauss' book, "A Universe From Nothing."
It was co-authored by another atheist fanatic, like you, Richard Dawkins.

Dr. Alexander Vilenkin, the same.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHdI4Let27I]A Universe From Nothing | Prof. Alexander Vilenkin | The Search for the Theory of Everything - YouTube[/ame]



Did I just prove that you know nothing?




Further....only a true imbecile....i.e., you, would claim "The universe was not created from nothing but from a disturbance to matter and energy so-named the Big Bang"....

...because I would simply ask where that "matter and energy" came from.




I do so appreciate you proving that the other side of the argument is peopled by hate-filled fanatics who, actually, know nothing.


Write soon.

 

[Hollie]

Certainly no less logical than espousing a certain 'scientific' belief....that the universe was created from nothing.

You should confine your participation in these threads to cutting and pasting "quotes" from Harun Yahya.

The universe was not created from nothing but from a disturbance to matter and energy so-named the Big Bang.

I have provided proof from physicists that the claim is that the the universe came from nothing.

In fact, that is the title of Lawrence Krauss' book, "A Universe From Nothing."
It was co-authored by another atheist fanatic, like you, Richard Dawkins.

Dr. Alexander Vilenkin, the same.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHdI4Let27I]A Universe From Nothing | Prof. Alexander Vilenkin | The Search for the Theory of Everything - YouTube[/ame]



Did I just prove that you know nothing?




Further....only a true imbecile....i.e., you, would claim "The universe was not created from nothing but from a disturbance to matter and energy so-named the Big Bang"....

...because I would simply ask where that "matter and energy" came from.




I do so appreciate you proving that the other side of the argument is peopled by hate-filled fanatics who, actually, know nothing.


Write soon.

Yet more cutting and pasting as a means to defend your inability to compose a coherent sentence.


As I noted, stick with cutting and pasting "quotes" from Harun Yahya. They add a bit of comic relief.

 

[Hollie]

First you say that I have no rational reason for belief in the biblical God over the others then you completely skim past my rationale and logical reasoning presented. This tells me that you're simply interested in arguing for the sake of argument.

"Dogma" does not have to be religious in nature. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you own a dictionary. Perhaps you should blow the dust off of it and turn to the "D" section. That would be after "C" and before "E." Then, turn the page until you arrive at the word "dogma." Well ... I'll just save you the time and monumental effort:


Dogma | Define Dogma at Dictionary.com

So you see ... your "settled" belief that the Bible and the God of the Bible CANNOT possibly be true is your personal "dogma."

What is "logical" about belief in supernaturalism and magic? And secondly, you "logically" did nothing but accept the gods that predominate in the West vs. gods that predominate in other cultures. You did nothing but accept the gods currently in vogue.

Certainly no less logical than espousing a certain 'scientific' belief....that the universe was created from nothing.

Question: "What does the Bible say about snake handling? Should we be handling snakes in church?"

Answer:

Read more: What does the Bible say about snake handling? Should we be handling snakes in church?

 

[DriftingSand]

You have some rather odd notions about dogma. I hold no beliefs about supernatural entities using magical means as the basis for existence. I have no personal beliefs as to gods being extant. If you have some evidence for supernaturalism that can somehow point to the gods that predominate in westernern civilization superceding the gods that predominate in Eastern cultures, you should present them. But of course, you cannot.

Secondly, belief in your partisan gods for no other reason than "they've been around for a long time" is juvenile and pointless. You should therefore abandon the gods that predominate in the West and accept Buddhism because as a belief system, it is much older.

For that matter, you should accept Isis as your god - worshipped for 5,000 years, so according to your "standards", you have believed in the wrong gods.

First you say that I have no rational reason for belief in the biblical God over the others then you completely skim past my rationale and logical reasoning presented. This tells me that you're simply interested in arguing for the sake of argument.

"Dogma" does not have to be religious in nature. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you own a dictionary. Perhaps you should blow the dust off of it and turn to the "D" section. That would be after "C" and before "E." Then, turn the page until you arrive at the word "dogma." Well ... I'll just save you the time and monumental effort:

dog·ma [dawg-muh, dog-] Show IPA
noun, plural dog·mas or ( Rare ) dog·ma·ta [dawg-muh-tuh] Show IPA .
1.
an official system of principles or tenets concerning faith, morals, behavior, etc., as of a church. Synonyms: doctrine, teachings, set of beliefs, philosophy.
2.
a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption; the recently defined dogma of papal infallibility. Synonyms: tenet, canon, law.
3.
prescribed doctrine proclaimed as unquestionably true by a particular group: the difficulty of resisting political dogma.
4.
a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle: the classic dogma of objectivity in scientific observation. Synonyms: conviction, certainty.

Dogma | Define Dogma at Dictionary.com

So you see ... your "settled" belief that the Bible and the God of the Bible CANNOT possibly be true is your personal "dogma."

What is "logical" about belief in supernaturalism and magic? And secondly, you "logically" did nothing but accept the gods that predominate in the West vs. gods that predominate in other cultures. You did nothing but accept the gods currently in vogue.

Knock, knock ... anybody home? It makes far more "logical" sense to believe that order creates order than to believe that chaos creates order. You believe that the universe is a total accident that happened by pure chance without any pre-thought. That conclusion is simply silly and only a silly person will accept it as even a possibility. So ... your conclusions are more illogical than mine.