Air Force staff chief resigns

[CSM]

Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. T. Michael Moseley resigned this morning at a meeting with Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the resignation of Air Force Secretary Michael W. Wynne soon may follow.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2008-06-05-airforce-staff_N.htm

This one isn't about disagreement with the CinC....

 

[Paulie]

I read an article about this earlier, and I've got to say, I find it to be downright horse shit.

I served in the Air Force, and my AFSC was Minuteman ICBM maintenence. People I went to tech school with were stationed at Minot. I was stationed at Malmstrom. The DoD wants to paint a picture of shoddy nuke training, but I have to thoroughly disagree. The nuke surety training I went through was extremely precise and inclusive. There's no way these accidents could have happened becuase of the training regiment.

You don't so much as sneeze, or you lose your PRP status and you hand out tools in the shop. You will be nowhere near a nuke if you are not on top of your game every single day. You go through SEVERAL different processes before you are even allowed to be in the presence of a nuclear weapon.

Somewhere along the way, someone fucked up. This bullshit about chiefs resigning, and shoddy training is a cover story. You're not going to piss down my back in this case, and tell me it's raining.

This shit doesn't fly.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The Air Force has other problems as well. They do not support nor believe in close air support and tried unsuccessfully to grab all armed Helicopters from the Army in the past. In fact the only reason there are armed helicopters is because in the 50's the Army ignored the Airforce and tested and proved their worth.

It is time someone beside a fighter Jock runs the show.

 

[Paulie]

The Air Force has other problems as well. They do not support nor believe in close air support and tried unsuccessfully to grab all armed Helicopters from the Army in the past. In fact the only reason there are armed helicopters is because in the 50's the Army ignored the Airforce and tested and proved their worth.

It is time someone beside a fighter Jock runs the show.

What does that have to do with this story, or nuke surety in general?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

What does that have to do with this story, or nuke surety in general?

If you don't know, I can't help you.

 

[Paulie]

If you don't know, I can't help you.

That's quite the 5th grade response there, RGS.

But I served in the AF, and worked in nuke surety, so I'd say that offers me more knowledge of the situation than you.

Regardless of how the AF handles war missions, they have an exemplory nuke surety training program.

I waited a year after graduating tech school before I was even allowed to perform my regular job of maintaining nuclear missiles, and so did just about everyone else in my unit. That's because it takes them that long to make sure you're qualified and able to handle nuclear weapons.

Scapegoating the training program doesn't explain the problem. The problem is corrupt, untrustworthy brass calling the shots.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

That's quite the 5th grade response there, RGS.

But I served in the AF, and worked in nuke surety, so I'd say that offers me more knowledge of the situation than you.

Regardless of how the AF handles war missions, they have an exemplory nuke surety training program.

I waited a year after graduating tech school before I was even allowed to perform my regular job of maintaining nuclear missiles, and so did just about everyone else in my unit. That's because it takes them that long to make sure you're qualified and able to handle nuclear weapons.

Scapegoating the training program doesn't explain the problem. The problem is corrupt, untrustworthy brass calling the shots.

Some one besides a senior airman screwed up and allowed nukes to be loaded on and flown to another base without even knowing it. The receiving base screwed up by not checking the payload on arrival.

Someone else, again I doubt it was a senior airman, allowed nuke triggers to be shipped to a foreign Country we do not even have bases in.

Ya the program is running hot and true.

 

[Paulie]

Some one besides a senior airman screwed up and allowed nukes to be loaded on and flown to another base without even knowing it. The receiving base screwed up by not checking the payload on arrival.

Someone else, again I doubt it was a senior airman, allowed nuke triggers to be shipped to a foreign Country we do not even have bases in.

Ya the program is running hot and true.

You do realize how many people in the chain of custody have to sign off on the movements of nuclear weapons, right?

You say someONE, when in all actuality, there would have to be somewhere in the neighborhood of a dozen people who's hands those nukes went through.

One person initially fucking up and pulling the wrong pilon, which in itself is ridiculous considering the dummies are not kept with the live ones, ALMOST makes enough sense to use as cause.

But every person those nukes had to pass through before they were loaded, flown, and delivered?

You've got to be kidding me. It just doesn't happen. I'm sitting here trying to tell you from 4 years EXPERIENCE in that very field, in that very branch, that it simply can not happen. The order to move nukes comes from wing commander, or above. And then there's the issue of live nukes not even being allowed to fly over US soil.

You keep telling yourself the training program is faulty, and ignore the facts all you want.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You do realize how many people in the chain of custody have to sign off on the movements of nuclear weapons, right?

You say someONE, when in all actuality, there would have to be somewhere in the neighborhood of a dozen people who's hands those nukes went through.

One person initially fucking up and pulling the wrong pilon, which in itself is ridiculous considering the dummies are not kept with the live ones, ALMOST makes enough sense to use as cause.

But every person those nukes had to pass through before they were loaded, flown, and delivered?

You've got to be kidding me. It just doesn't happen. I'm sitting here trying to tell you from 4 years EXPERIENCE in that very field, in that very branch, that it simply can not happen. The order to move nukes comes from wing commander, or above. And then there's the issue of live nukes not even being allowed to fly over US soil.

You keep telling yourself the training program is faulty, and ignore the facts all you want.

And yet the missiles WERE flown across US Soil. The fact the people in your chain did not follow procedure, the fact that someone somewhere authorized the removal and loading of Nuclear weapons. The fact that at the arrival base no one checked the payload and the air crew never verified the payload they were carrying.

The Training may be sound but a hell of a lot of people fucked up on that one, at TWO bases. And then we go back to NUCLEAR triggers being shipped to a foreign Country we do not even have bases in. Again training might be fine but someone fucked up, all along the chain of custody of those triggers.

I dealt with non lethal crypto gear with security classifications as high as secret and believe me, at the end of the day I KNEW where all my gear was, EVERY day. I checked it when we arrived to work and I checked it before we secured for the day. And it sure was NOT a nuclear weapon.

Once one of my troops left the vault open and unattended. We shut down and inventoried EVERY thing. We tore the vault apart looking for a missing test card that I had signed for as unclassified, we spent 3 hours looking for it. I reported it missing through the chain of command as required. The next morning we discovered it was marked wrong and was actually a confidential card. We spent the rest of that day tearing apart the shop , calling out lying units we repaired gear for, reporting through channels the card was missing, etc etc.

Turned out the card never went anywhere, it magically appeared in a piece of gear I and another GySgt had checked twice each. A certain MSgt had gone in the vault when no one was there and the command is pretty sure he took the clearly marked unclassified card to test our inventory system. But he left for the evening before the shit hit the fan and by the time he came to work the next day his little game was a serious problem. He and another MSgt checked out a piece of equipment the card went to, that I and the other GySgt had already checked each twice. And then they "discovered" the card in the reader.

Point? We knew with in minutes to do an Inventory and knew within minutes of doing said inventory a card was missing, and even though we believed it was an unclassified card we spent hours looking for it and reported through channels the breach. My test card was not 4 nuclear tipped cruise missiles.

If someone can remove 4 nukes from storage without authorization, load them on an aircraft, and the loader and crew do not know they are nukes, fly them across the Country, again with out authorization and no one at the arriving base notices 4 NUKES and no one at the secure storage facility the nukes came from doesn't know 4 nukes are missing for a full day, I would say there is a serious problem, at least at that base.

And if someone can ship nuclear triggers to a foreign Country and no one is the wiser, again, you have a serious problem.

 

[Paulie]

And yet the missiles WERE flown across US Soil. The fact the people in your chain did not follow procedure, the fact that someone somewhere authorized the removal and loading of Nuclear weapons. The fact that at the arrival base no one checked the payload and the air crew never verified the payload they were carrying.

The Training may be sound but a hell of a lot of people fucked up on that one, at TWO bases. And then we go back to NUCLEAR triggers being shipped to a foreign Country we do not even have bases in. Again training might be fine but someone fucked up, all along the chain of custody of those triggers.

I dealt with non lethal crypto gear with security classifications as high as secret and believe me, at the end of the day I KNEW where all my gear was, EVERY day. I checked it when we arrived to work and I checked it before we secured for the day. And it sure was NOT a nuclear weapon.

Once one of my troops left the vault open and unattended. We shut down and inventoried EVERY thing. We tore the vault apart looking for a missing test card that I had signed for as unclassified, we spent 3 hours looking for it. I reported it missing through the chain of command as required. The next morning we discovered it was marked wrong and was actually a confidential card. We spent the rest of that day tearing apart the shop , calling out lying units we repaired gear for, reporting through channels the card was missing, etc etc.

Turned out the card never went anywhere, it magically appeared in a piece of gear I and another GySgt had checked twice each. A certain MSgt had gone in the vault when no one was there and the command is pretty sure he took the clearly marked unclassified card to test our inventory system. But he left for the evening before the shit hit the fan and by the time he came to work the next day his little game was a serious problem. He and another MSgt checked out a piece of equipment the card went to, that I and the other GySgt had already checked each twice. And then they "discovered" the card in the reader.

Point? We knew with in minutes to do an Inventory and knew within minutes of doing said inventory a card was missing, and even though we believed it was an unclassified card we spent hours looking for it and reported through channels the breach. My test card was not 4 nuclear tipped cruise missiles.

If someone can remove 4 nukes from storage without authorization, load them on an aircraft, and the loader and crew do not know they are nukes, fly them across the Country, again with out authorization and no one at the arriving base notices 4 NUKES and no one at the secure storage facility the nukes came from doesn't know 4 nukes are missing for a full day, I would say there is a serious problem, at least at that base.

And if someone can ship nuclear triggers to a foreign Country and no one is the wiser, again, you have a serious problem.

Well I'm glad you were able to admit that the training program is not at fault, then.

I'm hard pressed not to believe something is fishy about these 2 stories. I'm at a sheer loss for understanding how that many different people could have made those mistakes. It just doesn't happen. I can't imagine the chances of it even happening like that are any better then a decimal point of a percentage.

I've always believed those nukes were supposed to be secretly shipped to Barksdale, to be sent to use against Iran in some way. Barksdale is the middle east staging base. Someone blew it and leaked, and the military top brass was left forced to cover their ass. What better way to cover your ass then to blame a bunch of lackies for fucking up. Most people will buy it, of course. You know damn well that if top brass wants to cover their ass on ANYTHING, they blame the little guys. There's also the fact that a handful of servicemembers from Minot AFB strangely died during the weeks leading up to, and after, the B52 incident, some directly employed in the nuclear weapons field.

I came to that conclusion, because no other possible explanation makes any sense to me. Having personally been involved in the maintenance and movements of nuclear weapons, I simply do not see the possibility of that many different people all fucking up at the same time.

I'm only speaking about the B52 incident, btw. I admittedly do not know very much about the other story at all. I haven't really read about it.

 

[CSM]

Well I'm glad you were able to admit that the training program is not at fault, then.

I'm hard pressed not to believe something is fishy about these 2 stories. I'm at a sheer loss for understanding how that many different people could have made those mistakes. It just doesn't happen. I can't imagine the chances of it even happening like that are any better then a decimal point of a percentage.

I've always believed those nukes were supposed to be secretly shipped to Barksdale, to be sent to use against Iran in some way. Barksdale is the middle east staging base. Someone blew it and leaked, and the military top brass was left forced to cover their ass. What better way to cover your ass then to blame a bunch of lackies for fucking up. Most people will buy it, of course. You know damn well that if top brass wants to cover their ass on ANYTHING, they blame the little guys. There's also the fact that a handful of servicemembers from Minot AFB strangely died during the weeks leading up to, and after, the B52 incident, some directly employed in the nuclear weapons field.

I came to that conclusion, because no other possible explanation makes any sense to me. Having personally been involved in the maintenance and movements of nuclear weapons, I simply do not see the possibility of that many different people all fucking up at the same time.

I'm only speaking about the B52 incident, btw. I admittedly do not know very much about the other story at all. I haven't really read about it.

Just so you know, Barksdale is not the staging base for the ME. It his the home of most B52s but the staging base is Diego Garcia.

I find it strange that you know about a handful of deaths at Minot (I haven't seen that but would sure like a link if you have one) but don't know about nuclear fuzes sent "accidently" and labelled as batteries. not criticizing here, but it sure makes you appear somewhat .... partisan (and I don't mean politically for once).

The truth is that the command climate within the Air Force has gotten very very lax. I know. I work on an AIr Force base and have seen Air Force officers blatantly ignore, disregard or even disobey direct orders from the Air Force Chief of Staff without suffering ANY repurcussions. Thus Gates' current effort to change things. The B52 incident is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Paulie]

Just so you know, Barksdale is not the staging base for the ME. It his the home of most B52s but the staging base is Diego Garcia.

I find it strange that you know about a handful of deaths at Minot (I haven't seen that but would sure like a link if you have one) but don't know about nuclear fuzes sent "accidently" and labelled as batteries. not criticizing here, but it sure makes you appear somewhat .... partisan (and I don't mean politically for once).

The truth is that the command climate within the Air Force has gotten very very lax. I know. I work on an AIr Force base and have seen Air Force officers blatantly ignore, disregard or even disobey direct orders from the Air Force Chief of Staff without suffering ANY repurcussions. Thus Gates' current effort to change things. The B52 incident is just the tip of the iceberg.

Barksdale is a major jumping point. I should have clarified that I didn't mean it was the only one, as that would obviously be ridiculous. But B52's are deployed from there, and the nukes were flown on a B52. I don't know about the fuse story because I simply haven't been doing much of anything online lately except posting here a little, and keeping up with sports.

The MSM didn't cover anything about the deaths of the various Airmen, but here's a link covering the B52 event. It lists the names and pictures of the Airmen who died, their units, and a little anecdote about them.

All one need to really do is check some records, and find out if they are dead or not. I admittedly haven't, but I wouldn't expect to see as many stories about them as I have, if it weren't true, given how easy it would be to confirm.

Project Camelot | In Tribute | 9 Minot and Barksdale Airmen

 

[CSM]

Barksdale is a major jumping point. I should have clarified that I didn't mean it was the only one, as that would obviously be ridiculous. But B52's are deployed from there, and the nukes were flown on a B52. I don't know about the fuse story because I simply haven't been doing much of anything online lately except posting here a little, and keeping up with sports.

The MSM didn't cover anything about the deaths of the various Airmen, but here's a link covering the B52 event. It lists the names and pictures of the Airmen who died, their units, and a little anecdote about them.

All one need to really do is check some records, and find out if they are dead or not. I admittedly haven't, but I wouldn't expect to see as many stories about them as I have, if it weren't true, given how easy it would be to confirm.

Project Camelot | In Tribute | 9 Minot and Barksdale Airmen

I have no doubt that every conspiracy theory website carried the story and that you saw every one of them.

 

[Paulie]

I have no doubt that every conspiracy theory website carried the story and that you saw every one of them.

Yes, because I sure am quite the conspiracy theorist around here, huh? I read that, and didn't see anything in there that posed any kind of "theory". It simply asked the questions that you would expect the MSM to have asked, rather than ignore it. I mean, come on, a fucking BENT SPEAR incident, and the MSM barely covers it at all?? Are you kidding me? They could have easily invited a few different experts on to discuss the specifics like they would normally do, but instead they chose to sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn't happen.

Hey, did you check the records yet? Not too hard to find out if a couple people died, is it? Tell you what, I'll do it for you, and I'll report back here with what I find out.

Better yet, can you explain to me how nukes can be removed from their storage facilities, and moved all the way from the north border to the south border without circumventing the chain of custody?

Are you aware of the "No Lone Zone" policy?

No less than 2 qualified people can be in possession of, or in the company of, a nuclear weapon at any time. There also must be a team of cops that escort the nuke weapons teams the entire time the nukes are in transit. Not to mention the plethora of cops that guard any nuke storage area. You don't even so much as sign out a PISTOL, without records being kept. And THAT is something I KNOW you know.

There is written documentation signed by anyone who is involved in this chain of custody. Do you realize how many people would have to have fucked up, all at the same time, for this to be an accident?

Who ordered the nukes to be moved? Where were the Security Forces that accompanied the nukes? How was there this total collapse of chain of custody on BOTH bases?

Why don't you use some of YOUR military knowledge, and give some explanations instead of writing it off as an accident and a conspiracy theory to believe otherwise.

Unless you've worked in Nuclear Surety, you're out of your league there, Chief.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Yes, because I sure am quite the conspiracy theorist around here, huh? I read that, and didn't see anything in there that posed any kind of "theory". It simply asked the questions that you would expect the MSM to have asked, rather than ignore it. I mean, come on, a fucking BENT SPEAR incident, and the MSM barely covers it at all?? Are you kidding me? They could have easily invited a few different experts on to discuss the specifics like they would normally do, but instead they chose to sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn't happen.

Hey, did you check the records yet? Not too hard to find out if a couple people died, is it? Tell you what, I'll do it for you, and I'll report back here with what I find out.

Better yet, can you explain to me how nukes can be removed from their storage facilities, and moved all the way from the north border to the south border without circumventing the chain of custody?

Are you aware of the "No Lone Zone" policy?

No less than 2 qualified people can be in possession of, or in the company of, a nuclear weapon at any time. There also must be a team of cops that escort the nuke weapons teams the entire time the nukes are in transit. Not to mention the plethora of cops that guard any nuke storage area. You don't even so much as sign out a PISTOL, without records being kept. And THAT is something I KNOW you know.

There is written documentation signed by anyone who is involved in this chain of custody. Do you realize how many people would have to have fucked up, all at the same time, for this to be an accident?

Who ordered the nukes to be moved? Where were the Security Forces that accompanied the nukes? How was there this total collapse of chain of custody on BOTH bases?

Why don't you use some of YOUR military knowledge, and give some explanations instead of writing it off as an accident and a conspiracy theory to believe otherwise.

Unless you've worked in Nuclear Surety, you're out of your league there, Chief.

And perhaps THAT is why your Buddies in the Air Force had to resign? Because there WAS a major screw up?

Ya I am gonna believe the Air Force ordered the missiles moved and got caught in the act. So then they murdered some enlisted men to cover it all up. Sure thing.

That is after all what you are claiming happened,

 

[Paulie]

And perhaps THAT is why your Buddies in the Air Force had to resign? Because there WAS a major screw up?

Perhaps WHAT is why they had to resign? That they all fucked up at the same time? Over 70 personnel all fucked up the same way?

Not one of those 70 at any time realized how they were screwing up?

Tell me RGS, how does one "accidentally" pull a dummy pilon of warheads when they aren't even kept at the same facilities? Tell me RGS, how do those entire 70 people not realize that live warheads are being fitted on to cruise missiles? I mean, I was always able to tell pretty easily. Not sure how nuke-trained personnel wouldn't know. It's impossible, given the facts. But you go an and pretend otherwise if it helps you sleep better at night.

Ya I am gonna believe the Air Force ordered the missiles moved and got caught in the act. So then they murdered some enlisted men to cover it all up. Sure thing.

That is after all what you are claiming happened,

I claimed nothing of the sort. I said it sure was odd that some of them allegedly died around that time. I never once said they were murdered. If you implied that, then that's on you. I'm not even saying it's true, only that it's been reported, and that it ought to be looked into.

You'd obviously rather not care, other than to say it was ANYTHING that wouldn't implicate the military in any intentional wrong-doing. Sorry, but I'm not that trusting and optomistic considering the event, the facts surrounding it, and my knowledge of that particular area.

You and CSM do not have direct knowledge of Nuclear Surety and how it would pertain to this particular story, and I do. But do continue pretending otherwise.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Perhaps WHAT is why they had to resign? That they all fucked up at the same time? Over 70 personnel all fucked up the same way?

Not one of those 70 at any time realized how they were screwing up?

Tell me RGS, how does one "accidentally" pull a dummy pilon of warheads when they aren't even kept at the same facilities? Tell me RGS, how do those entire 70 people not realize that live warheads are being fitted on to cruise missiles? I mean, I was always able to tell pretty easily. Not sure how nuke-trained personnel wouldn't know. It's impossible, given the facts. But you go an and pretend otherwise if it helps you sleep better at night.



I claimed nothing of the sort. I said it sure was odd that some of them allegedly died around that time. I never once said they were murdered. If you implied that, then that's on you. I'm not even saying it's true, only that it's been reported, and that it ought to be looked into.

You'd obviously rather not care, other than to say it was ANYTHING that wouldn't implicate the military in any intentional wrong-doing. Sorry, but I'm not that trusting and optomistic considering the event, the facts surrounding it, and my knowledge of that particular area.

You and CSM do not have direct knowledge of Nuclear Surety and how it would pertain to this particular story, and I do. But do continue pretending otherwise.

And yet 4 missiles DID get loaded and shipped and not noticed on arrival. AND Nuclear triggers did get shipped to Taiwan. Go figure.

 

[Paulie]

And yet 4 missiles DID get loaded and shipped and not noticed on arrival. AND Nuclear triggers did get shipped to Taiwan. Go figure.

LOL. Awesome response. Case closed I guess, huh RGS? Sleep tight.

And it was 6 btw, not 4. Are you even reading the stories you're trying to explain?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

LOL. Awesome response. Case closed I guess, huh RGS? Sleep tight.

And it was 6 btw, not 4. Are you even reading the stories you're trying to explain?

Ya but I did not read it recently so excuse me. If that is all you have to attack me with, you may want to rethink your line of reasoning.

The simple fact is, if the Government had ordered them moved we would know about it. As you have pointed out, if it were not a screw up the chain of custody would be clear and FULL of people to tell us it was legit and done according to the book. And I doubt a 4 Star general would resign if he could then point out the missiles were actually ordered moved and proper procedure was followed.

But ya, go with that conspiracy you keep alluding to and then claiming you haven't.

 

[CSM]

Yes, because I sure am quite the conspiracy theorist around here, huh? I read that, and didn't see anything in there that posed any kind of "theory". It simply asked the questions that you would expect the MSM to have asked, rather than ignore it. I mean, come on, a fucking BENT SPEAR incident, and the MSM barely covers it at all?? Are you kidding me? They could have easily invited a few different experts on to discuss the specifics like they would normally do, but instead they chose to sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn't happen.

Hey, did you check the records yet? Not too hard to find out if a couple people died, is it? Tell you what, I'll do it for you, and I'll report back here with what I find out.

Better yet, can you explain to me how nukes can be removed from their storage facilities, and moved all the way from the north border to the south border without circumventing the chain of custody?

Are you aware of the "No Lone Zone" policy?

No less than 2 qualified people can be in possession of, or in the company of, a nuclear weapon at any time. There also must be a team of cops that escort the nuke weapons teams the entire time the nukes are in transit. Not to mention the plethora of cops that guard any nuke storage area. You don't even so much as sign out a PISTOL, without records being kept. And THAT is something I KNOW you know.

There is written documentation signed by anyone who is involved in this chain of custody. Do you realize how many people would have to have fucked up, all at the same time, for this to be an accident?

Who ordered the nukes to be moved? Where were the Security Forces that accompanied the nukes? How was there this total collapse of chain of custody on BOTH bases?

Why don't you use some of YOUR military knowledge, and give some explanations instead of writing it off as an accident and a conspiracy theory to believe otherwise.

Unless you've worked in Nuclear Surety, you're out of your league there, Chief.

I view the movement of the nukes and the deaths of military personnel as two separate things. The conspiracy theory to which I refer is in regard to a connection between those deaths and the movement of nuclear weapons.

The fact that Gates relieved two of the top AF chain of command tells me that somebody did indeed willfully move some nukes and that this is jsut the tip of the iceberg....HOWEVER, that does not mean that the deaths of military personnel had any connection to the incident.

On a side note, you know damned well that the MSM can ask all the questions they want but when it comes to nukes, they are going to get damn few answers. I hardly think the DoD is going to publicly announce the Nuclear Surety process and procedures for public review. Of course, being a Nuclear Surety expert, I am sure you know that.