Advice needed, for a crazy situation

[Cellblock2429]

I want to share a terrible and weird situation I've been in, hopefully to get some advice…especially if anyone here is a lawyer or is familiar with legal stuff.

So I have been part of a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization for the last five years, that a couple friends of mine founded. It’s an online church. I'm on the board, as a trustee. About a year or two ago we started having problems with the president / pastor. One of the problems was that he kept requesting things that would have violated the 501(c)(3) laws, and he kept wanting to do things that we couldn't do legally. Our treasurer and secretary kept trying to tell him that we couldn't do those things legally, but nothing they said got through to him. That created a big rift between him and a couple of the other board members.

Another problem was that even though he’s an excellent teacher and speaker, he didn’t have the time, desire, or special people skills to deal with issues with people in the congregation. And there were a number of incidents of people (one of them was a volunteer) being hurt by him, because of how he handled the situation. Someone on the board suggested that we find a COO, or an assistant pastor, to deal with that day-to-day stuff or conflicts that he didn’t have time to deal with. That would have freed up time for him to do more of the things he likes to do and that he’s good at…but he was not receptive to bringing in a COO, he didn’t want to give up any control.

Another big problem was that he had a different vision for our organization than some of the others on the board did. Without getting into detail, we came up with a fantastic compromise that would have been really good for him, it was a win-win proposal. But he was not willing to compromise on certain things, so the negotiation fell through.

There’s also a copyright issue, he claims to have the copyright to the live talks, but the attorney we talked to said that if he was an employee (which he was) then the intellectual property belongs to the church. We were willing to do dual copyright, or give him the copyright under certain circumstances, but again he was not willing to compromise.

Meanwhile, during all of this, there was a growing feud between him and the co-founder /secretary. And also with the treasurer. And the biggest problem of all was that he had unforgiveness in his heart, over a long period of time, and an unwillingness to reconcile with her. Unforgiveness is a sin, so for a pastor to harbor unforgiveness and a refusal to reconcile is very bad from a spiritual standpoint. And we believe that is what led to what ended up happening, which I’ll explain.

What should have remained an internal conflict within the board reached the wider church community, because during one of our video meetings with some of the volunteers, he publicly made horrible accusations against the co-founder, bringing outsiders into the whole conflict. And unfortunately some of them believed him because they didn’t know the history of the whole situation that goes back a few years.

After trying MANY times to resolve these issues and reconcile with him, nothing we tried worked, so long story shorter, it was decided by the majority of the board to vote him out as president. We did everything according to our bylaws, and the 501(c)(3) rules, and although it wasn’t what we wanted to do, it was what we felt we had to do, after almost 2 years of trying to reconcile with him, with no resolution.

But a couple hours before he was officially voted out as president, he hijacked several of our important social media accounts (Google / Youtube, Facebook, Instagram and others), changed the passwords, removed all recovery info except his own, and completely locked us out of those platforms.

And then, to our shock and dismay, he later did a live talk which was simulcast on YouTube and Facebook, telling everyone that members of our board are being “guided by Satan” and that a “conspiracy was formed to illegally take over the church and dissolve it” - totally throwing us under the bus, in order to get everyone on his side.

So basically, he went completely rogue, and he has been carrying on as if he was never voted off the board, completely ignoring the reality. He is continuing to do regular live talks and continuing to use the social media platforms and the organization’s name illegally. He has 2 former board members on his side, and unfortunately he has a good chunk of the congregation still following him....because they don’t know the full story.

Our co-founder / secretary hired an attorney, but that has been extremely expensive, and it hasn’t gone so well, because the former president talked to the attorney and contradicted what we said. So the attorney said they would have to do an investigation to see who is the legitimate board, and all that. We don’t have an endless supply of money to continue using that attorney. We just want a cease-and-desist letter sent to him, to try to get him to stop what he’s doing… and of course he’s free to continue doing his thing through his own organization. We just want the split to be done in a legal and godly way, and right now it’s neither.

We want to find a pro bono attorney to help us going forward, but it has been extremely difficult to find one for our particular situation.

It feels like it will take a miracle to find either a pro bono or low-cost attorney to help us get back our organization and our social platforms. (Thankfully he didn’t hijack the website, so we still have that.) And I didn’t mention this before, but since everything he is doing is unauthorized, but he’s still using our organization’s name, that could potentially open the rest of us up to legal trouble.

I didn’t intend for this post to be so long!

But we really could use any advice we can get, because this has been a nightmare situation…and we just want to resolve it. Thanks for reading this!

/----/ Does your church have a bishop who can help you? In the CC, we can't vote out priests or pastors. Short of closing the church down and reorganizing under a different name, I don't see any recourse. Sad this is happening.

 

[buttercup]

/----/ Does your church have a bishop who can help you? In the CC, we can't vote out priests or pastors. Short of closing the church down and reorganizing under a different name, I don't see any recourse. Sad this is happening.

No…we're a small online church, we've only been around for five years and we're not part of any bigger organization. And yes, it really is sad. Because we have been growing, and because the message is unique among other christian churches, a lot of people were excited about being part of our community. But now with this big mess, sadly we probably will have to legally disband and reorganize under a different name. My concern is that even if we legally disband, he is still determined to use the name and social accounts… But as others have said, with the truth on our side, eventually people will see what has happened and I really don't think many people are going to want to follow him, once they know what really happened. And I really don't think God will bless what they are doing going forward, since everything was done in a very underhanded and illegal way. Thanks Cell.

 

[LilBit]

I hope you've documented everything.

We have documented everything. I am the secretary. As Buttercup has said, we are looking for a cease and desist letter. Also

1. To provide in that letter to the shadow church that he has formed since his removal from his offices and titles that we are the legit board; this is documented well. He has claimed that our treasurer, whom by unanimous vote over a year ago is not a legit board member because our bylaws state we are a board of 5 and she was the 6th member; but he never changed the bylaws, has worked with her this entire time until after he was removed from his offices; he can't later claim she isn't legit, that is called waiver and estoppel.
2. To inform the shadow church that his new direction for the church violates almost every aspect of our bylaws and 501(c)(3) laws that govern our church. If he doesn't stop willingly, we may need to dissolve the non-profit to protect us all

I'm not opposed to going to civil court, if the will of the majority is with me on it. I'd want all the documentation looked over by an attorney if possible. We are also positive he is planning for every angle he can think of as to what we might do, like a chess player in a chess game.

Any attorneys here who'd be willing to offer advice or suggest a low-cost option would be so helpful, we'd be very grateful.

 

[LilBit]

/----/ Does your church have a bishop who can help you? In the CC, we can't vote out priests or pastors. Short of closing the church down and reorganizing under a different name, I don't see any recourse. Sad this is happening.

The church is a small, non-denominational, independent, and unincorporated 501(c)(3) non-profit church. So we do not have the backing of a larger denomination. If we did, this pastor would have to answer to the governing powers above him. He is the pastor, the president and chair on the board. We did not know it at the time we formed, but we gave him too much power. He believes he is the ultimate decision maker, the board's purpose to help him make his decisions. But the board is the governing body in our small church.

 

[Cellblock2429]

The church is a small, non-denominational, independent, and unincorporated 501(c)(3) non-profit church. So we do not have the backing of a larger denomination. If we did, this pastor would have to answer to the governing powers above him. He is the pastor, the president and chair on the board. We did not know it at the time we formed, but we gave him too much power. He believes he is the ultimate decision maker, the board's purpose to help him make his decisions. But the board is the governing body in our small church.

/——/ If all of the parishioners leave and form a new church, that pastor will have nothing.

 

[whitehall]

Get all the documentation you can. Go to the authorities and look for another job because this looks like a dead end that might ensnare you in a criminal charge.

 

[buttercup]

Get all the documentation you can. Go to the authorities and look for another job because this looks like a dead end that might ensnare you in a criminal charge.

Thanks, we're doing that. We're going to try to fight it, but beyond that we're not sure yet what we'll end up doing. One of our board member's husband is interested in being the new pastor, and he is ordained... But we have to see how things go, for now we just want to resolve this nightmare situation...but without a good attorney to help us, it has been really difficult.

 

[Cellblock2429]

Thanks, we're doing that. We're going to try to fight it, but beyond that we're not sure yet what we'll end up doing. One of our board member's husband is interested in being the new pastor, and he is ordained... But we have to see how things go, for now we just want to resolve this nightmare situation...but without a good attorney to help us, it has been really difficult.

/—-/ Don’t let you Christianity prevent you from doing what is necessary to sideline that pastor. Open a new church, and be careful of how much power to give to others.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Which state is he in? The reason I ask is because when it comes to electronic activities over the internet, the laws of both states (sender/receiver and/or "plaintiff" (you all/church) / defendant) can apply, and even sometimes federal law.

Let me check on something & get back to you sometime tomorrow please.

Okay, the person I asked is licensed to practice in California and responded with the following (I sent your post):

1. Do they have a complete copy of your bylaws, and do the bylaws describe the procedures for removing or replacing a board member or officer?
2. Has the board already prepared written meeting minutes documenting the vote to remove him as president?
3. Can they provide the organization’s EIN confirmation letter and the IRS 501c3 determination letter?
4. What email address was originally used as the “owner” or primary administrator for their Google, YouTube, Facebook, and Instagram accounts? Was it an official organizational email, or was it his personal email?
5. Is he currently collecting donations, tithes, or any financial contributions under the organization’s name? (This is very important, because it creates potential liability and regulatory issues.)
6. Was he ever paid as an employee or contractor by the organization?
If so, do you have payroll records, a contract, or any documentation showing that his work -including sermons and online content - was performed as part of his employment?

So this is a typical fiasco for corporate (including charity) key people breaking up. If they want to get the social accounts back, the above ones are necessary to submit a letter to those companies. So it's crucial to let them answer the questions and find them when they can.

Let me know if you would like to proceed and if so how.

 

[buttercup]

Okay, the person I asked is licensed to practice in California and responded with the following (I sent your post):

1. Do they have a complete copy of your bylaws, and do the bylaws describe the procedures for removing or replacing a board member or officer?
2. Has the board already prepared written meeting minutes documenting the vote to remove him as president?
3. Can they provide the organization’s EIN confirmation letter and the IRS 501c3 determination letter?
4. What email address was originally used as the “owner” or primary administrator for their Google, YouTube, Facebook, and Instagram accounts? Was it an official organizational email, or was it his personal email?
5. Is he currently collecting donations, tithes, or any financial contributions under the organization’s name? (This is very important, because it creates potential liability and regulatory issues.)
6. Was he ever paid as an employee or contractor by the organization?
If so, do you have payroll records, a contract, or any documentation showing that his work -including sermons and online content - was performed as part of his employment?

So this is a typical fiasco for corporate (including charity) key people breaking up. If they want to get the social accounts back, the above ones are necessary to submit a letter to those companies. So it's crucial to let them answer the questions and find them when they can.

Let me know if you would like to proceed and if so how.

Excellent, thank you so much! The answer to most of those questions is yes. As for #4, I'll have to look into that. I'm not sure what email was originally used, but later they were all changed to either our main email with our website address, or a general Gmail we had set up for the church. But unfortunately that Gmail is now in his possession, since the Google account was one of the ones he hijacked.

There's more I want to say, but I don't know if I should say too much here publicly. I have a question for you, but if it's OK with you, either I or LilBit (she's the secretary who is also on this forum) will PM you later. Thanks again, it is much appreciated!

 

[buttercup]

/—-/ Don’t let you Christianity prevent you from doing what is necessary to sideline that pastor. Open a new church, and be careful of how much power to give to others.

I definitely agree with the last thing you said. As LilBit mentioned, we didn't realize it at the time when we first formed, but we gave him too much power. Now I know why many churches separate the roles of pastor and president. Thanks again!

 

[AZrailwhale]

I want to share a terrible and weird situation I've been in, hopefully to get some advice…especially if anyone here is a lawyer or is familiar with legal stuff.

So I have been part of a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization for the last five years, that a couple friends of mine founded. It’s an online church. I'm on the board, as a trustee. About a year or two ago we started having problems with the president / pastor. One of the problems was that he kept requesting things that would have violated the 501(c)(3) laws, and he kept wanting to do things that we couldn't do legally. Our treasurer and secretary kept trying to tell him that we couldn't do those things legally, but nothing they said got through to him. That created a big rift between him and a couple of the other board members.

Another problem was that even though he’s an excellent teacher and speaker, he didn’t have the time, desire, or special people skills to deal with issues with people in the congregation. And there were a number of incidents of people (one of them was a volunteer) being hurt by him, because of how he handled the situation. Someone on the board suggested that we find a COO, or an assistant pastor, to deal with that day-to-day stuff or conflicts that he didn’t have time to deal with. That would have freed up time for him to do more of the things he likes to do and that he’s good at…but he was not receptive to bringing in a COO, he didn’t want to give up any control.

Another big problem was that he had a different vision for our organization than some of the others on the board did. Without getting into detail, we came up with a fantastic compromise that would have been really good for him, it was a win-win proposal. But he was not willing to compromise on certain things, so the negotiation fell through.

There’s also a copyright issue, he claims to have the copyright to the live talks, but the attorney we talked to said that if he was an employee (which he was) then the intellectual property belongs to the church. We were willing to do dual copyright, or give him the copyright under certain circumstances, but again he was not willing to compromise.

Meanwhile, during all of this, there was a growing feud between him and the co-founder /secretary. And also with the treasurer. And the biggest problem of all was that he had unforgiveness in his heart, over a long period of time, and an unwillingness to reconcile with her. Unforgiveness is a sin, so for a pastor to harbor unforgiveness and a refusal to reconcile is very bad from a spiritual standpoint. And we believe that is what led to what ended up happening, which I’ll explain.

What should have remained an internal conflict within the board reached the wider church community, because during one of our video meetings with some of the volunteers, he publicly made horrible accusations against the co-founder, bringing outsiders into the whole conflict. And unfortunately some of them believed him because they didn’t know the history of the whole situation that goes back a few years.

After trying MANY times to resolve these issues and reconcile with him, nothing we tried worked, so long story shorter, it was decided by the majority of the board to vote him out as president. We did everything according to our bylaws, and the 501(c)(3) rules, and although it wasn’t what we wanted to do, it was what we felt we had to do, after almost 2 years of trying to reconcile with him, with no resolution.

But a couple hours before he was officially voted out as president, he hijacked several of our important social media accounts (Google / Youtube, Facebook, Instagram and others), changed the passwords, removed all recovery info except his own, and completely locked us out of those platforms.

And then, to our shock and dismay, he later did a live talk which was simulcast on YouTube and Facebook, telling everyone that members of our board are being “guided by Satan” and that a “conspiracy was formed to illegally take over the church and dissolve it” - totally throwing us under the bus, in order to get everyone on his side.

So basically, he went completely rogue, and he has been carrying on as if he was never voted off the board, completely ignoring the reality. He is continuing to do regular live talks and continuing to use the social media platforms and the organization’s name illegally. He has 2 former board members on his side, and unfortunately he has a good chunk of the congregation still following him....because they don’t know the full story.

Our co-founder / secretary hired an attorney, but that has been extremely expensive, and it hasn’t gone so well, because the former president talked to the attorney and contradicted what we said. So the attorney said they would have to do an investigation to see who is the legitimate board, and all that. We don’t have an endless supply of money to continue using that attorney. We just want a cease-and-desist letter sent to him, to try to get him to stop what he’s doing… and of course he’s free to continue doing his thing through his own organization. We just want the split to be done in a legal and godly way, and right now it’s neither.

We want to find a pro bono attorney to help us going forward, but it has been extremely difficult to find one for our particular situation.

It feels like it will take a miracle to find either a pro bono or low-cost attorney to help us get back our organization and our social platforms. (Thankfully he didn’t hijack the website, so we still have that.) And I didn’t mention this before, but since everything he is doing is unauthorized, but he’s still using our organization’s name, that could potentially open the rest of us up to legal trouble.

I didn’t intend for this post to be so long!

But we really could use any advice we can get, because this has been a nightmare situation…and we just want to resolve it. Thanks for reading this!

He is an employee. Fire him, he is out of control.

 

[buttercup]

He is an employee. Fire him, he is out of control.

We wanted to vote him out as board president first. But we never anticipated what ended up happening. (I edited my post because I feel like I might be saying too much here.)

 

[AZrailwhale]

We wanted to vote him out as board president first. But we never anticipated what ended up happening. (I edited my post because I feel like I might be saying too much here.)

At this point the least bad choice is to very publicly fire him. Them his control of your facilities becomes a criminal rather than a civil matter,

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Excellent, thank you so much! The answer to most of those questions is yes. As for #4, I'll have to look into that. I'm not sure what email was originally used, but later they were all changed to either our main email with our website address, or a general Gmail we had set up for the church. But unfortunately that Gmail is now in his possession, since the Google account was one of the ones he hijacked.

There's more I want to say, but I don't know if I should say too much here publicly. I have a question for you, but if it's OK with you, either I or LilBit (she's the secretary who is also on this forum) will PM you later. Thanks again, it is much appreciated!

Yes if you would like to proceed I would advise that we continue privately. I posted the response here since it's general questions that other perhaps can use if they ever find themselves in a similar situation, but any further details should be sent privately or at least not on a public message board, a private message here is fine.

 

[LilBit]

He is an employee. Fire him, he is out of control.

Yes, as Buttercup said, we first wanted him to step down as president. But when he started inviting volunteers and the wider community into the board's conflict, some members were done. So thus we voted him out of all of his positions, his officer roles of president and chair, and his pastoral seat.

 

[LilBit]

Okay, the person I asked is licensed to practice in California and responded with the following (I sent your post):

1. Do they have a complete copy of your bylaws, and do the bylaws describe the procedures for removing or replacing a board member or officer?
2. Has the board already prepared written meeting minutes documenting the vote to remove him as president?
3. Can they provide the organization’s EIN confirmation letter and the IRS 501c3 determination letter?
4. What email address was originally used as the “owner” or primary administrator for their Google, YouTube, Facebook, and Instagram accounts? Was it an official organizational email, or was it his personal email?
5. Is he currently collecting donations, tithes, or any financial contributions under the organization’s name? (This is very important, because it creates potential liability and regulatory issues.)
6. Was he ever paid as an employee or contractor by the organization?
If so, do you have payroll records, a contract, or any documentation showing that his work -including sermons and online content - was performed as part of his employment?

So this is a typical fiasco for corporate (including charity) key people breaking up. If they want to get the social accounts back, the above ones are necessary to submit a letter to those companies. So it's crucial to let them answer the questions and find them when they can.

Let me know if you would like to proceed and if so how.

I would like to proceed for sure.

Buttercup answered most of this. We have good records for everything in 1-6 (except #5). I (I am the secretary) have prepared a document for an attorney, a spreadsheet that lists the time line of events with all documentation pertinent to each event ready for when we find an attorney. We followed our bylaws and non-profit laws for good governance.

#5 I'm not sure, as there is no communication between the two sides. If they are collecting donations and distributing them the way the pastor had said he planned to do, they are doing so in violation of 501(c)(3) laws.

#4 I believe they used the gmail email address for the google account that they hijacked.

 

[g5000]

What do you mean by get rid of him? We did vote him out, it was done by a majority vote, legally and according to our bylaws. But he has basically ignored that and is painting the whole thing in a completely false way. And the worst part is, he is misleading the public, and we never know what he's going to say next in his live talks, since we no longer have control of our YouTube and Facebook accounts. The whole thing is so flippin crazy.

Is your church not part of a national organization? If so, kick it up the chain.

We had a very similar situation at our church, though not nearly as bad as what you describe, and the problem was brought to the national level, and they booted our pastor's ass out the door.

ETA: Never mind. I see you already answered the question. You don't have any higher ups to help you. That sucks.

 

[g5000]

But a couple hours before he was officially voted out as president, he hijacked several of our important social media accounts (Google / Youtube, Facebook, Instagram and others), changed the passwords, removed all recovery info except his own, and completely locked us out of those platforms.

Those accounts are all the property of your church. You have solid grounds for a civil lawsuit.

 

[initforme]

Get out of that church and away froms its people asap.