Admirals, generals: Let gays serve openly

[CSM]

You makes some good points, CSM, but honestly...wouldn't you rather know who actually was gay so you could avoid showering with him or her than not knowing? And do you honestly think it's possible for most people to live in these circumstances without noticing who is gay or not? In a way you are asking for special protection for straight men and that just makes me laugh. It's hard for me to feel any sympathy for men that might get oogled by other men considering this is something women have been dealing with since the beginning of time.

I am not advocating anything one way or the other...merely trying to consolidate the more reasonable points on both sides of the issue.

Your point about living under general circumstances is addressed in one of me previous posts (civilian environment versus military environment).

Your statement about "protection" for straight men is disingenuous. Even the comparison between straight men vs women being oggled is misleading. Under normal circumstances (i.e., civilian environment) such oggling does not have the impact that I have already listed that can and does occur in the military environment.

 

[CSM]

Jeesh, I have a brother that is a firefighter. He has to share quarters with *gasp* both gay men and women and somehow his unit manages to do their jobs without trouble.

He shares quarters with gays while on shift...then he goes home. I doubt seriously thaty your brother or any one else makes the firehouse their domicile. Again, the difference between civilian and military environments.

 

[CSM]

Yes.



Because most gays aren't afraid of heterosexual men who aren't homophobic nitwits, I expect.



Excellent math skills, dude.



Are they?

Thanks for your poignant contribution.

 

[Ravi]

He shares quarters with gays while on shift...then he goes home. I doubt seriously thaty your brother or any one else makes the firehouse their domicile. Again, the difference between civilian and military environments.

But he does share showers and dorm rooms with them while on duty. And he has to keep going back to doing it, so he doesn't have the same opportunity to get used to it that he did in the military. Which is worse for someone that is afraid of gay people? I don't know.

If a straight soldier needs this much coddling, why bother enlisting to begin with? Plus, why do you think gay men are going to start propositioning straight men on a large scale in the military? IF, and it is a big if, such a thing happens they'd all get thrown out on their butts and rightfully so.

 

[CSM]

But he does share showers and dorm rooms with them while on duty. And he has to keep going back to doing it, so he doesn't have the same opportunity to get used to it that he did in the military. Which is worse for someone that is afraid of gay people? I don't know.

If a straight soldier needs this much coddling, why bother enlisting to begin with? Plus, why do you think gay men are going to start propositioning straight men on a large scale in the military? IF, and it is a big if, such a thing happens they'd all get thrown out on their butts and rightfully so.

Ravi, it is obvious that you have not bothered to try to understand the issues that have been raised throughout this thread or you have not even read them. In my opinion, the isssue is not so simple as unwanted sexual advances. The military already can and does deal with such. The issue is far larger than that and is compounded by the special circumstances the military environment creates by its very nature. I get the impression that you do not acknowledge that such special circumstances exist. If that is indeed true then obviously there is no basis for discussion between us because the topic will veer from the original to whether or not special circumstances exist.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Ravi, it is obvious that you have not bothered to try to understand the issues that have been raised throughout this thread or you have not even read them. In my opinion, the isssue is not so simple as unwanted sexual advances. The military already can and does deal with such. The issue is far larger than that and is compounded by the special circumstances the military environment creates by its very nature. I get the impression that you do not acknowledge that such special circumstances exist. If that is indeed true then obviously there is no basis for discussion between us because the topic will veer from the original to whether or not special circumstances exist.

She has already stated the Military is just one big social program run by the Government. When you retire you did not earn a retirement for serves rendered, you are receiving welfare.

She does not grasp the concept that military personal living in the barracks or the field have NO choice over who they room with, who they have to LIVE with. She can not grasp the concept that every military member does NOT have a private room. That they share tight quarters including bathing and sleeping with people randomly assigned based on when they arrived at the unit and what rooms had vacancies.

She can not grasp the concept that men do not live with women in the barracks and that gays can not be accomadated under the current barracks plans because they can not be put in with anyone else. Obviously gays can not have the same room, that would be the same as men and women in the same room, they can not room with other straights of their sex, because that would be like, well men and women living together, and they can not room with the other sex cause that WOULD be men and women living together.

Military life has a lot of stress in it, even in peace time. She can not grasp the concept at all. She can not fathom that a military person is not just a civilian wearing a silly work uniform.

 

[Ravi]

She has already stated the Military is just one big social program run by the Government. When you retire you did not earn a retirement for serves rendered, you are receiving welfare.

I did nothing of the sort. What I did say makes you so crazy, because it is the truth, that you have to make up things to block it from your mind. But nice feeble attempt to derail the thread.

She does not grasp the concept that military personal living in the barracks or the field have NO choice over who they room with, who they have to LIVE with. She can not grasp the concept that every military member does NOT have a private room. That they share tight quarters including bathing and sleeping with people randomly assigned based on when they arrived at the unit and what rooms had vacancies.

She can not grasp the concept that men do not live with women in the barracks and that gays can not be accomadated under the current barracks plans because they can not be put in with anyone else. Obviously gays can not have the same room, that would be the same as men and women in the same room, they can not room with other straights of their sex, because that would be like, well men and women living together, and they can not room with the other sex cause that WOULD be men and women living together.

Military life has a lot of stress in it, even in peace time. She can not grasp the concept at all. She can not fathom that a military person is not just a civilian wearing a silly work uniform.

Just last week I watched some reruns of Gomer Pyle so I have a pretty firm grasp of what barracks life is like. And if Gomer, who is OBVIOUSLY gay, can be part of a coherent team I imagine it's quite possible elsewhere.

 

[CSM]

I did nothing of the sort. What I did say makes you so crazy, because it is the truth, that you have to make up things to block it from your mind. But nice feeble attempt to derail the thread.

Just last week I watched some reruns of Gomer Pyle so I have a pretty firm grasp of what barracks life is like. And if Gomer, who is OBVIOUSLY gay, can be part of a coherent team I imagine it's quite possible elsewhere.

I will assume that you are attempting to be humorous with that last statement.

 

[eots]

You makes some good points, CSM, but honestly...wouldn't you rather know who actually was gay so you could avoid showering with him or her than not knowing? And do you honestly think it's possible for most people to live in these circumstances without noticing who is gay or not? In a way you are asking for special protection for straight men and that just makes me laugh. It's hard for me to feel any sympathy for men that might get oogled by other men considering this is something women have been dealing with since the beginning of time.

See, look, I know I'm homophobic, but not about gay guys. They don't bother me at all. It's straight guys who don't know their gay... they fuck my shit right up.


Like a guy calls me up and says, "A bunch of us guys are gonna sit around in our underwear and watch the football game and drink beer and eat chips and, you know, maybe wrestle with each other, just us guys. You wanna come over?".... And I'm like,...uh...No."


SongMeanings | Lyrics | King Missile - Gay/Not Gay

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I did nothing of the sort. What I did say makes you so crazy, because it is the truth, that you have to make up things to block it from your mind. But nice feeble attempt to derail the thread.

Just last week I watched some reruns of Gomer Pyle so I have a pretty firm grasp of what barracks life is like. And if Gomer, who is OBVIOUSLY gay, can be part of a coherent team I imagine it's quite possible elsewhere.

More proof you are a blazing retard.

You will find that the current military does not care if someone is gay at all, UNLESS they insist on making it an issue. If you do not know it does not matter. Pretty simple concept. Even for dumb twats like you.

You will also find that any male that openly goes about broadcasting he intends to fuck any female that moves, talks about his sex life or acts promiscious will be kicked out as well as any woman that says she plans to lay the Company or acts the same way. Same with Gays.

 

[Ravi]

I dunno, I guess I just don't see it. I wouldn't be uncomfortable sharing quarters with lesbians so it's hard for me to imagine men being uncomfortable sharing quarters with gays...unless they are unsure of their own masculinity.

And perhaps I've seen too many movies, where soldiers are normally portrayed as above all the petty bullshit when they are under fire and are actually loyal to each other.

 

[CSM]

I dunno, I guess I just don't see it. I wouldn't be uncomfortable sharing quarters with lesbians so it's hard for me to imagine men being uncomfortable sharing quarters with gays...unless they are unsure of their own masculinity.

And perhaps I've seen too many movies, where soldiers are normally portrayed as above all the petty bullshit when they are under fire and are actually loyal to each other.

There is a great deal of truth in your last statement! Not always, surely, but enough that the stereotype you see in the movies is accurate enough.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I dunno, I guess I just don't see it. I wouldn't be uncomfortable sharing quarters with lesbians so it's hard for me to imagine men being uncomfortable sharing quarters with gays...unless they are unsure of their own masculinity.

And perhaps I've seen too many movies, where soldiers are normally portrayed as above all the petty bullshit when they are under fire and are actually loyal to each other.

Again, no one DOES care unless the gay guy keeps talking about it and flaunting it. Believe me before I was Sgt and had my own room ( or got married) I did not appreciate room mates trying to tell me all about the sexual preferences, actions, conquests or dates except in a simply kind of way, like, did you have fun, did you like the person.

 

[Ravi]

Again, no one DOES care unless the gay guy keeps talking about it and flaunting it. Believe me before I was Sgt and had my own room ( or got married) I did not appreciate room mates trying to tell me all about the sexual preferences, actions, conquests or dates except in a simply kind of way, like, did you have fun, did you like the person.

I think the entire point of the thread is to do away with "don't ask, don't tell," where if someone admits to being gay aloud they could be discharged. Someone getting sexually explicit on you could be charged with harassment.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I think the entire point of the thread is to do away with "don't ask, don't tell," where if someone admits to being gay aloud they could be discharged. Someone getting sexually explicit on you could be charged with harassment.

The only thing that needs to happen is that commands are FORCED to stop the already illegal practice of outing gays. Because of the way the UCMJ works local commanders as low as Company Commanders can basically take matters into their own hands and ruin enlistments and careers.

These commanders KNOW if they manage to out them, they are done and nothing ever is done to the commander.

 

[mightypeon]

During my time in the German army we had one who was gay and did not have a high social standing. However, he was incredibly annoying and apperantly had some psychological problems concerning or was completely untrained in the norms of hygenic behaviour. Peeing into the shower is NOT FUN!

He got removed from the army after boot camp, but was never subjected to anything physical.

 

[Gem]

If gays are allowed to serve openly in the military...is it also time to start considering co-ed units, women in combat units, etc?

 

[CrimsonWhite]

If gays are allowed to serve openly in the military...is it also time to start considering co-ed units, women in combat units, etc?

In good time.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

If gays are allowed to serve openly in the military...is it also time to start considering co-ed units, women in combat units, etc?

The Israelis proved that coed combat units do not work. Men can not divorce themselves of the feelings to protect and defend women and such units suffer because of it.

 

[Gem]

The Israelis proved that coed combat units do not work. Men can not divorce themselves of the feelings to protect and defend women and such units suffer because of it.

I'm sure women will be fine with all women units to start. However if you're going to say its ok now for men to be showering, sleeping, changing, etc. in extremely close quarters with other men who are now able to openly admit that they are gay and attracted to them...you're going to be hard-pressed to explain why thats ok...but women serving in combat isn't ok...