ACA 2.0 Begins Tomorrow.

[Zander]

liberal propaganda 101: Reframe the argument. Move the goalposts. distract, dissemble, divert.....

If record low health care cost growth, a plummeting uninsurance rate, and rapidly improving health care quality are distractions for you, perhaps you're focusing on the wrong things. Someday Obama will be gone and all you've have left to focus on is a health care system that works a hell of a lot better than it used to.

Rates are substantially higher. Tens of millions are still uninsured. It costs more than it did before AND it covers less. It's adding billions to the national debt.... And oh by the way, you'll pay a tax if you don't comply!! Good job!!

 

[Treeshepherd]

liberal propaganda 101: Reframe the argument. Move the goalposts. distract, dissemble, divert.....

If record low health care cost growth, a plummeting uninsurance rate, and rapidly improving health care quality are distractions for you, perhaps you're focusing on the wrong things. Someday Obama will be gone and all you've have left to focus on is a health care system that works a hell of a lot better than it used to.

How can you say that we have record-low healthcare costs when they are rising on a per capita basis by 3% per year? It's not like wages are increasing by 3% per year. By my understanding of mathematics, that would mean that a new record for expensiveness is set each and every year.

You still get charged $5 for using a Kleenex in a hospital, and more for an overnight stay than at some of our finest resorts.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Zandar, I spent 50 years in the health insurance business, dealing with underwriting, contracting providers, claims, and government compliance. I can guarantee the following to you. Any medical doctor who charges $35 as his total fee for a check up today is a doctor who very shortly will no longer be practicing medicine. That does not even cover his mal-practice insurance.

You are full of baloney.

Well, gee, Zandar, you certainly have buried my argument with irrefutable facts and overwhelming evidence with that post!

 

[Vandalshandle]

liberal propaganda 101: Reframe the argument. Move the goalposts. distract, dissemble, divert.....

If record low health care cost growth, a plummeting uninsurance rate, and rapidly improving health care quality are distractions for you, perhaps you're focusing on the wrong things. Someday Obama will be gone and all you've have left to focus on is a health care system that works a hell of a lot better than it used to.

How can you say that we have record-low healthcare costs when they are rising on a per capita basis by 3% per year? It's not like wages are increasing by 3% per year. By my understanding of mathematics, that would mean that a new record for expensiveness is set each and every year.

You still get charged $5 for using a Kleenex in a hospital, and more for an overnight stay than at some of our finest resorts.

Welcome to the existing world of health care! That $5 Kleenex is called "cost shifting". You see, if you are uninsured, and not subject to contractual rate limits, that $5 Kleenex has been inflated to pay for all those non-insured people (like you) who did not pay. Reagan, btw, is the one who signed the bill that forced the hospitals to do that. I, on the other hand, am billed a grand total of $1,100 per day for every day I spend in the hospital, which includes everything that I use while there. That is because my HMO contracted that rate with the hospital, and included a "No balance billing" clause so that they can not bill anything to me, other than my copay and my deductible (and I have none of those). By the time I check out, my maximum amount due is 5 days at $200 per day. All the rest is paid by the HMO at $1,100 per day each.

 

[Geaux4it]

A whopping 37% ACA approval rating from recent Galup poll. The people overwhelmingly disapprove,

-Geaux

Obamacare Approval Rating Hits New Low As Open Enrollment 2015 Begins ACA Still Popular With Enrollees

 

[Treeshepherd]

liberal propaganda 101: Reframe the argument. Move the goalposts. distract, dissemble, divert.....

If record low health care cost growth, a plummeting uninsurance rate, and rapidly improving health care quality are distractions for you, perhaps you're focusing on the wrong things. Someday Obama will be gone and all you've have left to focus on is a health care system that works a hell of a lot better than it used to.

How can you say that we have record-low healthcare costs when they are rising on a per capita basis by 3% per year? It's not like wages are increasing by 3% per year. By my understanding of mathematics, that would mean that a new record for expensiveness is set each and every year.

You still get charged $5 for using a Kleenex in a hospital, and more for an overnight stay than at some of our finest resorts.

Welcome to the existing world of health care! That $5 Kleenex is called "cost shifting". You see, if you are uninsured, and not subject to contractual rate limits, that $5 Kleenex has been inflated to pay for all those non-insured people (like you) who did not pay. Reagan, btw, is the one who signed the bill that forced the hospitals to do that.

Yeah, but I've never actually used a hospital, so don't pin that on me. I'm not a Reagan fan, so don't pin that on me either.

You might consider another thing that drives up the cost of healthcare. I'm speaking of free availability. Imagine if every poor person were issued a $50/month voucher for beer. By the simple laws of supply and demand, that would drive up the price of beer. And by the simple laws of supply and demand, where now everybody can get on Medicaid and go in and get free services and drugs and procedures, the cost of health care will continue to escalate.

And don't come at me with the preventative care argument, like that's going to save any money for the taxpayer. From a taxpayer standpoint, it's a lot cheaper to let a person die young than to maintain a healthy person with Medicare and Social Security until they're 100 years old.

No, you can't argue for ObamaCare on the financial thread. You have to take the humanitarian tack if you want to make any valid argument.

 

[Greenbeard]

How can you say that we have record-low healthcare costs when they are rising on a per capita basis by 3% per year? It's not like wages are increasing by 3% per year. By my understanding of mathematics, that would mean that a new record for expensiveness is set each and every year.

I said record low health care cost growth. 3% percent growth in health spending per capita is unheard of--in that it's never happened in the era of modern medicine, not even once. Even the brief bending of the cost curve in the late '90s bottomed out at 4.2% growth per capita in its best year. A half decade of 2.9-3.0% growth is unprecedented.

Health spending as a share of GDP actually fell in 2012 (which is essentially the definition of bending the cost curve). Medicare spending is now falling on a per capita basis.

The goal is to try and keep health care spending growth down, at (or ideally below) GDP growth so that the rest of the economy, and wages, can start to catch up. A great deal of effort is being poured into finding ways to do that, both through market competition and through reforming the health care delivery system. Time will tell how effective those efforts turn out to be but so far the signs are promising.

 

[Vandalshandle]

liberal propaganda 101: Reframe the argument. Move the goalposts. distract, dissemble, divert.....

If record low health care cost growth, a plummeting uninsurance rate, and rapidly improving health care quality are distractions for you, perhaps you're focusing on the wrong things. Someday Obama will be gone and all you've have left to focus on is a health care system that works a hell of a lot better than it used to.

How can you say that we have record-low healthcare costs when they are rising on a per capita basis by 3% per year? It's not like wages are increasing by 3% per year. By my understanding of mathematics, that would mean that a new record for expensiveness is set each and every year.

You still get charged $5 for using a Kleenex in a hospital, and more for an overnight stay than at some of our finest resorts.

Welcome to the existing world of health care! That $5 Kleenex is called "cost shifting". You see, if you are uninsured, and not subject to contractual rate limits, that $5 Kleenex has been inflated to pay for all those non-insured people (like you) who did not pay. Reagan, btw, is the one who signed the bill that forced the hospitals to do that.

Yeah, but I've never actually used a hospital, so don't pin that on me. I'm not a Reagan fan, so don't pin that on me either.

You might consider another thing that drives up the cost of healthcare. I'm speaking of free availability. Imagine if every poor person were issued a $50/month voucher for beer. By the simple laws of supply and demand, that would drive up the price of beer. And by the simple laws of supply and demand, where now everybody can get on Medicaid and go in and get free services and drugs and procedures, the cost of health care will continue to escalate.

And don't come at me with the preventative care argument, like that's going to save any money for the taxpayer. From a taxpayer standpoint, it's a lot cheaper to let a person die young than to maintain a healthy person with Medicare and Social Security until they're 100 years old.

No, you can't argue for ObamaCare on the financial thread. You have to take the humanitarian tack if you want to make any valid argument.

Thank you. As an underwriter who told people for decades that they can not buy insurance, because of their bad health, which in many cases resulted in their death, I do, indeed take the humanitarian point of view. That was my primary reason for supporting ACA. Only secondarily do I argue that the freeloaders who have no insurance expect the rest of us to pick up their tab, which we have been doing for decades.

 

[Zander]

Zandar, I spent 50 years in the health insurance business, dealing with underwriting, contracting providers, claims, and government compliance. I can guarantee the following to you. Any medical doctor who charges $35 as his total fee for a check up today is a doctor who very shortly will no longer be practicing medicine. That does not even cover his mal-practice insurance.

You are full of baloney.

Well, gee, Zandar, you certainly have buried my argument with irrefutable facts and overwhelming evidence with that post!

You haven't given any evidence to refute. Anecdotes are not evidence.

You say you worked in the insurance business? Then you know a little about actuarial risk, right? What are the chances that a healthy 50 year old male with no bad habits will suddenly get a "brain tumor'?

The reality is I am healthy, wealthy, and educated and still choose not to buy health insurance. It's a lousy product. I'll pay the tax. I have sufficient financial resources to pay out of pocket in case a black swan event occurs.

Why the hell does that bother you?

 

[Treeshepherd]

liberal propaganda 101: Reframe the argument. Move the goalposts. distract, dissemble, divert.....

If record low health care cost growth, a plummeting uninsurance rate, and rapidly improving health care quality are distractions for you, perhaps you're focusing on the wrong things. Someday Obama will be gone and all you've have left to focus on is a health care system that works a hell of a lot better than it used to.

How can you say that we have record-low healthcare costs when they are rising on a per capita basis by 3% per year? It's not like wages are increasing by 3% per year. By my understanding of mathematics, that would mean that a new record for expensiveness is set each and every year.

You still get charged $5 for using a Kleenex in a hospital, and more for an overnight stay than at some of our finest resorts.

Welcome to the existing world of health care! That $5 Kleenex is called "cost shifting". You see, if you are uninsured, and not subject to contractual rate limits, that $5 Kleenex has been inflated to pay for all those non-insured people (like you) who did not pay. Reagan, btw, is the one who signed the bill that forced the hospitals to do that.

Yeah, but I've never actually used a hospital, so don't pin that on me. I'm not a Reagan fan, so don't pin that on me either.

You might consider another thing that drives up the cost of healthcare. I'm speaking of free availability. Imagine if every poor person were issued a $50/month voucher for beer. By the simple laws of supply and demand, that would drive up the price of beer. And by the simple laws of supply and demand, where now everybody can get on Medicaid and go in and get free services and drugs and procedures, the cost of health care will continue to escalate.

And don't come at me with the preventative care argument, like that's going to save any money for the taxpayer. From a taxpayer standpoint, it's a lot cheaper to let a person die young than to maintain a healthy person with Medicare and Social Security until they're 100 years old.

No, you can't argue for ObamaCare on the financial thread. You have to take the humanitarian tack if you want to make any valid argument.

Thank you. As an underwriter who told people for decades that they can not buy insurance, because of their bad health, which in many cases resulted in their death, I do, indeed take the humanitarian point of view. That was my primary reason for supporting ACA. Only secondarily do I argue that the freeloaders who have no insurance expect the rest of us to pick up their tab, which we have been doing for decades.

'Freeloaders' was a word bandied about by Pelosi and others. I prefer the adjective 'healthy'.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Are we seeing the

Zandar, I spent 50 years in the health insurance business, dealing with underwriting, contracting providers, claims, and government compliance. I can guarantee the following to you. Any medical doctor who charges $35 as his total fee for a check up today is a doctor who very shortly will no longer be practicing medicine. That does not even cover his mal-practice insurance.

You are full of baloney.

Well, gee, Zandar, you certainly have buried my argument with irrefutable facts and overwhelming evidence with that post!

You haven't given any evidence to refute. Anecdotes are not evidence.

You say you worked in the insurance business? Then you know a little about actuarial risk, right? What are the chances that a healthy 50 year old male with no bad habits will suddenly get a "brain tumor'?

The reality is I am healthy, wealthy, and educated and still choose not to buy health insurance. It's a lousy product. I'll pay the tax. I have sufficient financial resources to pay out of pocket in case a black swan event occurs.

Why the hell does that bother you?

Hey Zander.....what's up with this?

Three Quarters Who Signed Up for Obamacare have Higher Premiums US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

What premiums went way up? I thought you had enough dough to not have insurance?

D'oh!!!!

Honesty is the best policy, bro.

 

[Politico]

I honestly don't care what you believe. I have a net worth that is substantially more than 1 million (and substantially less than 1 billion!). So I can afford a $1millon surgery,.....but I doubt I'd have to pay that much. Cash patients get a huge discount.

PS- I don't spend much time posting here.....I only average about 6 posts a day.

Thank you for pointing that out. So as you can see folks even in Obammy's fair and fixed system rich folks still get a better shake.

 

[Geaux4it]

liberal propaganda 101: Reframe the argument. Move the goalposts. distract, dissemble, divert.....

If record low health care cost growth, a plummeting uninsurance rate, and rapidly improving health care quality are distractions for you, perhaps you're focusing on the wrong things. Someday Obama will be gone and all you've have left to focus on is a health care system that works a hell of a lot better than it used to.

How can you say that we have record-low healthcare costs when they are rising on a per capita basis by 3% per year? It's not like wages are increasing by 3% per year. By my understanding of mathematics, that would mean that a new record for expensiveness is set each and every year.

You still get charged $5 for using a Kleenex in a hospital, and more for an overnight stay than at some of our finest resorts.

Welcome to the existing world of health care! That $5 Kleenex is called "cost shifting". You see, if you are uninsured, and not subject to contractual rate limits, that $5 Kleenex has been inflated to pay for all those non-insured people (like you) who did not pay. Reagan, btw, is the one who signed the bill that forced the hospitals to do that.

Yeah, but I've never actually used a hospital, so don't pin that on me. I'm not a Reagan fan, so don't pin that on me either.

You might consider another thing that drives up the cost of healthcare. I'm speaking of free availability. Imagine if every poor person were issued a $50/month voucher for beer. By the simple laws of supply and demand, that would drive up the price of beer. And by the simple laws of supply and demand, where now everybody can get on Medicaid and go in and get free services and drugs and procedures, the cost of health care will continue to escalate.

And don't come at me with the preventative care argument, like that's going to save any money for the taxpayer. From a taxpayer standpoint, it's a lot cheaper to let a person die young than to maintain a healthy person with Medicare and Social Security until they're 100 years old.

No, you can't argue for ObamaCare on the financial thread. You have to take the humanitarian tack if you want to make any valid argument.

Thank you. As an underwriter who told people for decades that they can not buy insurance, because of their bad health, which in many cases resulted in their death, I do, indeed take the humanitarian point of view. That was my primary reason for supporting ACA. Only secondarily do I argue that the freeloaders who have no insurance expect the rest of us to pick up their tab, which we have been doing for decades.

Thanks for being in the 37% that finds value

-Geaux

 

[LoneLaugher]

Bump.

Hey Zander!!!!! Where'd ya go?

 

[Zander]

Are we seeing the

Zandar, I spent 50 years in the health insurance business, dealing with underwriting, contracting providers, claims, and government compliance. I can guarantee the following to you. Any medical doctor who charges $35 as his total fee for a check up today is a doctor who very shortly will no longer be practicing medicine. That does not even cover his mal-practice insurance.

You are full of baloney.

Well, gee, Zandar, you certainly have buried my argument with irrefutable facts and overwhelming evidence with that post!

You haven't given any evidence to refute. Anecdotes are not evidence.

You say you worked in the insurance business? Then you know a little about actuarial risk, right? What are the chances that a healthy 50 year old male with no bad habits will suddenly get a "brain tumor'?

The reality is I am healthy, wealthy, and educated and still choose not to buy health insurance. It's a lousy product. I'll pay the tax. I have sufficient financial resources to pay out of pocket in case a black swan event occurs.

Why the hell does that bother you?

Hey Zander.....what's up with this?

Three Quarters Who Signed Up for Obamacare have Higher Premiums US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

What premiums went way up? I thought you had enough dough to not have insurance?

D'oh!!!!

Honesty is the best policy, bro.

Don't know what your problem is bub, that post is 100% true. I wrote that post in April of 2014. Our policy had expired in the end of December and the new "obamacare compliant" premium was triple. We decided not to renew. We could buy an Obamacare policy on Covered CA for around $800 a month with a $6500 per person deductible....but we don't have a grudge against ourselves....

Now go take a bath ya stinkin' hippie ******!

 

[LoneLaugher]

Are we seeing the

Zandar, I spent 50 years in the health insurance business, dealing with underwriting, contracting providers, claims, and government compliance. I can guarantee the following to you. Any medical doctor who charges $35 as his total fee for a check up today is a doctor who very shortly will no longer be practicing medicine. That does not even cover his mal-practice insurance.

You are full of baloney.

Well, gee, Zandar, you certainly have buried my argument with irrefutable facts and overwhelming evidence with that post!

You haven't given any evidence to refute. Anecdotes are not evidence.

You say you worked in the insurance business? Then you know a little about actuarial risk, right? What are the chances that a healthy 50 year old male with no bad habits will suddenly get a "brain tumor'?

The reality is I am healthy, wealthy, and educated and still choose not to buy health insurance. It's a lousy product. I'll pay the tax. I have sufficient financial resources to pay out of pocket in case a black swan event occurs.

Why the hell does that bother you?

Hey Zander.....what's up with this?

Three Quarters Who Signed Up for Obamacare have Higher Premiums US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

What premiums went way up? I thought you had enough dough to not have insurance?

D'oh!!!!

Honesty is the best policy, bro.

Don't know what your problem is bub, that post is 100% true. I wrote that post in April of 2014. Our policy had expired in the end of December and the new "obamacare compliant" premium was triple. We decided not to renew. We could buy an Obamacare policy on Covered CA for around $800 a month with a $6500 per person deductible....but we don't have a grudge against ourselves....

Now go take a bath ya stinkin' hippie ******!

No. Please stop. It's embarrassing. Just come clean. You have been exposed for lying. Own it and move on.

 

[Zander]

Are we seeing the

You are full of baloney.

Well, gee, Zandar, you certainly have buried my argument with irrefutable facts and overwhelming evidence with that post!

You haven't given any evidence to refute. Anecdotes are not evidence.

You say you worked in the insurance business? Then you know a little about actuarial risk, right? What are the chances that a healthy 50 year old male with no bad habits will suddenly get a "brain tumor'?

The reality is I am healthy, wealthy, and educated and still choose not to buy health insurance. It's a lousy product. I'll pay the tax. I have sufficient financial resources to pay out of pocket in case a black swan event occurs.

Why the hell does that bother you?

Hey Zander.....what's up with this?

Three Quarters Who Signed Up for Obamacare have Higher Premiums US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

What premiums went way up? I thought you had enough dough to not have insurance?

D'oh!!!!

Honesty is the best policy, bro.

Don't know what your problem is bub, that post is 100% true. I wrote that post in April of 2014. Our policy had expired in the end of December and the new "obamacare compliant" premium was triple. We decided not to renew. We could buy an Obamacare policy on Covered CA for around $800 a month with a $6500 per person deductible....but we don't have a grudge against ourselves....

Now go take a bath ya stinkin' hippie ******!

No. Please stop. It's embarrassing. Just come clean. You have been exposed for lying. Own it and move on.

You're the one embarrassing yourself son......you think you have something and you don't.

Here is what I wrote:

who knows? I do not think he is lying. But he does not speak for the entire country.

I will tell you that it does match my experience. Our premiums went WAY up.

As of today we have no way of measuring the success or failure of the ACA. I doubt the government will release anything substantive until after the midterms, unless they are favorable for the (most transparent!)) administration (in history!).

When we can determine how many of the formerly uninsured (the 46 milliion!) are now newly insured -not merely "re-enrolled" due to gov't regulations - then we''ll have something to talk about. That was the goal right? Help the 46 million??

Where is the lie?

 

[LoneLaugher]

It isn't unusual for people who lie to lose track of the things they say. Your lies are in this thread and in the thread back in April. Different lies...but all lies just the same.

Go ahead an reread your posts in this thread. See if you can figure out when your lie began.

 

[asterism]

So what if Obamacare is a clusterfuck of fail? Liberals/progressives measure results by "intentions" not reality.....otherwise they'd be suicidal.

What exactly is the metric that's bothering you?

The uninsurance rate? (Dropped substantially and is about to start declining further.)

The deficit? (Now lower than the 40-year-average, having experienced one of the sharpest declines ever recorded.)

Health care cost growth? (Has fallen to record lows.)

Quality? (Physician groups have improved their quality performance, hospitals continue to increase their scores on quality and patient safety metrics, and even Medicare Advantage quality has been climbing steadily.)

The cost of the law relative to projections when it passed? (Cheaper--exchange subsidies paid out in FY14 were about 31% lower than the price tag "sold" back in 2010, in large part because premiums are lower than they were expected to be).

So which objective measure of the health care system is the problem for you?

Let's start with the health care cost growth rate. You claim it has fallen to record lows but the link you posted for it is a projection for the next 5 years from September. That's not proof that the cost growth rate has fallen.

 

[Treeshepherd]

The increasing cost of healthcare is largely a factor of overall inflation. Inflation has been low, in fact FED policy has been designed to prevent deflation since 2008.

Inflation has been low. The increasing costs of healthcare has been low. That's a more significant relationship than the effect of the ACA