Abraham Lincoln: Alternative History?

[JoeB131]

Here's a clue for you, moron: No one in the Union thought blacks were equals.They had laws to keep blacks out of their states, and that discriminated in blacks in other ways. Many of the union states had slavery.

None of which had anything to do with my point that most dumb white people who fought for the Confederacy lived in terror that black people, once free would have sex with their sisters... (and probably satisfy them better than they could, the inbred fucks!)

Did you do what I assigned you to do?

If not shut the fuck up you ignorant Moon Bat asshole. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

When someone who screams bout "FILTHY NEGROES" tells me his ancestor was totally not racist when he fought to defend slavery, I don't need to read his barely literate letters to take that one with a grain of salt.

 

[bripat9643]

None of which had anything to do with my point that most dumb white people who fought for the Confederacy lived in terror that black people, once free would have sex with their sisters... (and probably satisfy them better than they could, the inbred fucks!)

What a racist piece of shit. You have no idea why anyone fought for the confederacy. You're a brainwashed moron.

 

[JoeB131]

What a racist piece of shit. You have no idea why anyone fought for the confederacy. You're a brainwashed moron.

Actually, we know exactly why they did. For the slave owners, it was to keep their slaves.
For the non-slave owners, it was about not having to treat the black man as an equal.

Now, AFTER the war, you saw the Lost Cause myth and how it was about "States Rights", but it was about slavery.

This speech by Alexander Stephens, the only vice-president of the Confederacy.

Alexander Stephens on Slavery and the Confederate Constitution, 1861 | The American Yawp Reader

The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions-African slavery as it exists among us-the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted.

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. [Applause.] This, our new Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It is so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day.

 

[DudleySmith]

Actually, we know exactly why they did. For the slave owners, it was to keep their slaves.
For the non-slave owners, it was about not having to treat the black man as an equal.

Now, AFTER the war, you saw the Lost Cause myth and how it was about "States Rights", but it was about slavery.

This speech by Alexander Stephens, the only vice-president of the Confederacy.

Alexander Stephens on Slavery and the Confederate Constitution, 1861 | The American Yawp Reader

The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions-African slavery as it exists among us-the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted.

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. [Applause.] This, our new Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It is so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day.

Rubbish. This is just rhetoric from a political speech, and made after secession, not before, and and had zero to do with with cascade of secessions deliberately provoked by Lincoln. The truth, from Lincoln himself, as well as others:


"But what am I to do in the meantime with those men at Montgomery [meaning the Confederate constitutional convention]? Am I to let them go on... [a]nd open Charleston, etc., as ports of entry, with their ten-percent tariff. What, then, would become of my tariff?" ~ Lincoln to Colonel John B. Baldwin, deputized by the Virginian Commissioners to determine whether Lincoln would use force, April 4, 1861.


"You and I both anticipated that the cause of the country would be advanced by making the attempt to provision Fort Sumter, even if it should fail ; and it is no small consolation now to feel that our anticipation is justified by the result. "
Abraham Lincoln, in a letter to Gustavus Fox, May 1, 1861


"The affair at Fort Sumter, it seems to us, has been planned as a means by which the war feeling at the North should be intensified, and the administration thus receive popular support for its policy.... If the armament which lay outside the harbor, while the fort was being battered to pieces [the US ship The Harriet Lane, and seven other reinforcement ships], had been designed for the relief of Major Anderson, it certainly would have made a show of fulfilling its mission. But it seems plain to us that no such design was had. The administration, virtually, to use a homely illustration, stood at Sumter like a boy with a chip on his shoulder, daring his antagonist to knock it off. The Carolinians have knocked off the chip. War is inaugurated, and the design of the administration accomplished." ~ The Buffalo Daily Courier, April 16, 1861.

"We have no doubt, and all the circumstances prove, that it was a cunningly devised scheme, contrived with all due attention to scenic display and intended to arouse, and, if possible, exasperate the northern people against the South.... We venture to say a more gigantic conspiracy against the principles of human liberty and freedom has never been concocted. Who but a fiend could have thought of sacrificing the gallant Major Anderson and his little band in order to carry out a political game? Yet there he was compelled to stand for thirty-six hours amid a torrent of fire and shell, while the fleet sent to assist him, coolly looked at his flag of distress and moved not to his assistance! Why did they not? Perhaps the archives in Washington will yet tell the tale of this strange proceeding.... Pause then, and consider before you endorse these mad men who are now, under pretense of preserving the Union, doing the very thing that must forever divide it." ~ The New York Evening Day-Book, April 17, 1861.

Most everybody knew the game being played by Lincoln and his financial cronies.


"Union means so many millions a year lost to the South; secession means the loss of the same millions to the North. The love of money is the root of this as of many other evils....The quarrel between the North and South is, as it stands, solely a fiscal quarrel".... Charles ****ens in a London periodical in December 1861

"The contest is really for empire on the side of the North and for independence on that of the South....". ..... London Times of 7 Nov 1861

"Slavery is not the cause of the rebellion ....Slavery is the pretext on which the leaders of the rebellion rely, 'to fire the Southern Heart' and through which the greatest degree of unanimity can be produced....Mr. Calhoun, after finding that the South could not be brought into sufficient unanimity by a clamor about the tariff, selected slavery as the better subject for agitation"..... North American Review (Boston October 1862)

"They [the South] know that it is their import trade that draws from the people's pockets sixty or seventy millions of dollars per annum, in the shape of duties, to be expended mainly in the North, and in the protection and encouragement of Northern interests....These are the reasons why these people [the North] do not wish the South to secede from the Union." ..... New Orleans Daily Crescent 21 January 1861

"In one single blow our foreign commerce must be reduced to less than one-half what it now is. Our coastwise trade would pass into other hands. One-half of our shipping would lie idle at our wharves. We should lose our trade with the South, with all of its immense profits. Our manufactories would be in utter ruins. Let the South adopt the free-trade system, or that of a tariff for revenue, and these results would likely follow." .... Chicago Daily Times December 1860


"At once shut down every Southern port, destroy its commerce and bring utter ruin on the Confederate States." ..... NY Times 22 March 1861

"the mask has been thrown off and it is apparent that the people of the principal seceding states are now for commercial independence. They dream that the centres of traffic can be changed from Northern to Southern ports....by a revenue system verging on free trade...." .... Boston Transcript 18 March 1861


The South had already won all the Supreme Court battles over slavery, and Taney was still Chief Justice, no threats there, It was purely 'business', like the Corleone family would say.

 

[JohnDB]

Within 20 years of the end of the Civil War, slavery had been abolished in the Western Hemisphere and most of the rest of the world

This is untrue.
South America had a robust slave trade until post WWI. That was when it finally tapered off.

Not that I'm such a fan of Abraham Lincoln. Sure he is famous for ending slavery in America...but he abused the very Constitution he claimed to support and violated state's rights to do so.

He didn't do anything to undo the reasons why the South turned to using slave labor to begin with...(Northern Economic abuse of Southern goods)
Instead he simply removed the economic equalizer that slave labor provided...and did it at gunpoint when the South decided that they had enough of being part of the Northern States and their abuses.
The South realized that their agricultural crops got much much better reception in Europe and prices than the North's goods manufactured from Southern products.
(Raw cotton vx cotton cloth)
And if the South had better and busier ports for trading with Europe...the North would have starved economically. Which was what was beginning to happen when the North Attacked the "Rebels".

 

[Otis Mayfield]

President Jefferson owned over 2,000 slaves. His plantation was a town. It had black potters, black blacksmiths, black butchers, black tailors, and so on.

If you're a poor white, how do you compete with that? You don't. You can't compete with free.

So, there were the rich slavers in the South and the poor whites who were underemployed and uneducated.

How did the rich Southern slavers convince the poor whites to die by the tens of thousands to protect slavery? Slavery that turned poor whites into paupers.

That is a great mystery.

 

[TNHarley]

As for slavery being the issue, check out the Ghost Amendment to the Constitution that Lincoln said he would accept.

Nobody ever wants to talk about that

 

[TNHarley]

This is the Great American Patriot that took out the worst tyrant in American history.

 

[TNHarley]

None of which had anything to do with my point that most dumb white people who fought for the Confederacy lived in terror that black people, once free would have sex with their sisters... (and probably satisfy them better than they could, the inbred fucks!)



When someone who screams bout "FILTHY NEGROES" tells me his ancestor was totally not racist when he fought to defend slavery, I don't need to read his barely literate letters to take that one with a grain of salt.

Hey dumbfuck, Lincoln supported making slavery legal FOREVER. The South knew that and still seceded.
Too bad you are too stupid to realize that single fact destroys your entire narrative.

 

[jwoodie]

This is untrue.
South America had a robust slave trade until post WWI.

Brazil was the last country in South American to abolish slavery (1888). Look it up.

 

[Mr Natural]

President Jefferson owned over 2,000 slaves. His plantation was a town. It had black potters, black blacksmiths, black butchers, black tailors, and so on.

If you're a poor white, how do you compete with that? You don't. You can't compete with free.

So, there were the rich slavers in the South and the poor whites who were underemployed and uneducated.

How did the rich Southern slavers convince the poor whites to die by the tens of thousands to protect slavery? Slavery that turned poor whites into paupers.

That is a great mystery.

All that inbreeding makes people stupid.

 

[bripat9643]

Actually, we know exactly why they did. For the slave owners, it was to keep their slaves.
For the non-slave owners, it was about not having to treat the black man as an equal.

Now, AFTER the war, you saw the Lost Cause myth and how it was about "States Rights", but it was about slavery.

This speech by Alexander Stephens, the only vice-president of the Confederacy.

Alexander Stephens on Slavery and the Confederate Constitution, 1861 | The American Yawp Reader

The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions-African slavery as it exists among us-the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted.

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. [Applause.] This, our new Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It is so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day.

You're an imbecile. Your posts are so stupid they aren't worth reading, so I didn't.

 

[JohnDB]

Hey dumbfuck, Lincoln supported making slavery legal FOREVER. The South knew that and still seceded.
Too bad you are too stupid to realize that single fact destroys your entire narrative.

Did you even bother to read what I wrote?

Take clue and act like a normal person for a change.
The situation was complex and then it got stupid and petty while playing with people's lives.

 

[TNHarley]

Did you even bother to read what I wrote?

Take clue and act like a normal person for a change.
The situation was complex and then it got stupid and petty while playing with people's lives.

I didnt respond to you. I responded to JoeB131

 

[JohnDB]

I didnt respond to you. I responded to JoeB131

My bad...
I certainly do apologize for the way I responded.
(I know, I'm not exactly doing political arguing correctly but I'm not exactly big on politics anyway)

 

[TNHarley]

My bad...
I certainly do apologize for the way I responded.
(I know, I'm not exactly doing political arguing correctly but I'm not exactly big on politics anyway)

All good man. We have all done it

 

[DudleySmith]

Hey dumbfuck, Lincoln supported making slavery legal FOREVER. The South knew that and still seceded.
Too bad you are too stupid to realize that single fact destroys your entire narrative.

But but Lincoln's own words don't matter. It's all about bashing southerners. Never mind all those slave states in the Union.

 

[DudleySmith]

All that inbreeding makes people stupid.

The historical record shows that the New England states were and still are the most inbred. You are apparently from Maine, right?

 

[DudleySmith]

How did the rich Southern slavers convince the poor whites to die by the tens of thousands to protect slavery?

Since it wasn't about slavery, they didn't need to, that's why. And, for that matter, many southern states had white populations that formed military units that went North to fight for the Union; even some of Alabama's citizens sent a cavalry regiment. Pennsylvania and New Jersey had a secessionist movement, and New York City came within a hair's breadth of seceding and declaring itself a 'free city'.

Also, Lincoln's faction in Congress and the Senate barely squeaked by in the next mid-terms due to voters getting suspicious that he was turning the war into a war over slavery. The Republicans and northern war Democrats ran on a platform of keeping blacks out of the new territories and northern states, i.e. a white nationalist platform. And, Lincoln and his successors did exactly that, preventing 'free' blacks from going north during and after the war; hundreds of thousands, maybe over a million, died in 'contraband camps', while others were shipped to cotton plantations under new owners to work just like they did before, and weren't allowed to leave without written permission from their new Yankee owners. Lincoln's fig leaf was to order that they be paid $3 a month, since they were ' free n stuff'.

They had slavery up North, to especially in Illinois, lomg before the Civil War and well into the 20th Century; it was hidden under state laws that allowed sheriffs and police chiefs to rent out prisoners to private industry. Many thousands perished in mines and other dangerous jobs.

 

[JohnDB]

Since it wasn't about slavery, they didn't need to, that's why. And, for that matter, many southern states had white populations that formed military units that went North to fight for the Union; even some of Alabama's citizens sent a cavalry regiment. Pennsylvania and New Jersey had a secessionist movement, and New York City came within a hair's breadth of seceding and declaring itself a 'free city'.

Also, Lincoln's faction in Congress and the Senate barely squeaked by in the next mid-terms due to voters getting suspicious that he was turning the war into a war over slavery. The Republicans and northern war Democrats ran on a platform of keeping blacks out of the new territories and northern states, i.e. a white nationalist platform. And, Lincoln and his successors did exactly that, preventing 'free' blacks from going north during and after the war; hundreds of thousands, maybe over a million, died in 'contraband camps', while others were shipped to cotton plantations under new owners to work just like they did before, and weren't allowed to leave without written permission from their new Yankee owners. Lincoln's fig leaf was to order that they be paid $3 a month, since they were ' free n stuff'.

They had slavery up North, to especially in Illinois, lomg before the Civil War and well into the 20th Century; it was hidden under state laws that allowed sheriffs and police chiefs to rent out prisoners to private industry. Many thousands perished in mines and other dangerous jobs.

Doesn't even begin to touch the child labor the Northern States were infamous for....they would clean out orphanages to climb in the machinery and get horribly maimed in the process.