Abolish Welfare......Except For The Truly Needy

[Said1]

I'm still stuck in the mindset that if I can pull myself away from that (both sides of my family were/are that way) as a teenager, then anyone else can if they really want to.. Then again, I'm pretty hard on myself, so... But hey, whatever gets them off, and keeps them off is going to be better for them in the long run, and hopefully they'll come away passing that knowledge down, and expecting more from their own kids.

I don't think we could start with something like a 3 year program.. 95% of the welfare population here would look at it as a 3 year ride. I think we need more drastic measures like the 6 month thing.. Anyone that's on welfare and can't support themselves has no business bringing more children in to this world.. We can't force them to get their tubes tied, but we can sure as hell not hand them even more money for screwing up (mostly intentionally, since they know more children equals more money)..

It's a family support program, not an "extend your welfare benefits program", just to clarify. The center does have GED programs, and other admin training courses, job placements ect. It is designed to offer skill providing programs along with family support, like a support group ect. They do not sign up and agree to come in for three years, but that's usually how long it takes between the time they come in pregnant and find full time employment.

 

[Shattered]

It's a family support program, not an "extend your welfare benefits program", just to clarify. The center does have GED programs, and other admin training courses, job placements ect. It is designed to offer skill providing programs along with family support, like a support group ect. They do not sign up and agree to come in for three years.

So it's completely voluntary, and not a requirement of receiving benefits? So, the people that show up are doing it because they *want* to better their lives - not because they have to to keep receiving funds?

 

[Said1]

So it's completely voluntary, and not a requirement of receiving benefits? So, the people that show up are doing it because they *want* to better their lives - not because they have to to keep receiving funds?

Yes. The vast majority of the women entering the program come in pregnant, and VERY young. The vast majority of them take part in the skills training programs, and the vast majority of them get jobs, and stay off welfare, or pursue higher education through band funding or other studen loan programs. It's a higly successful program, geared to the native community. They do everything different from a normal city programs. There are cases where people are in skill programs who are there for that reason only, but they have high success rates too.

 

[no1tovote4]

Yes. The vast majority of the women entering the program come in pregnant, and VERY young. The vast majority of them take part in the skills training programs, and the vast majority of them get jobs, and stay off welfare, or pursue higher education through band funding or other studen loan programs. It's a higly successful program, geared to the native community. They do everything different from a normal city programs. There are cases where people are in skill programs who are there for that reason only, but they have high success rates too.

It seems to be a little like the Job Corps.

 

[Said1]

It seems to be a little like the Job Corps.

Yes, but with a holistic approach.

 

[Shattered]

Yes. The vast majority of the women entering the program come in pregnant, and VERY young. The vast majority of them take part in the skills training programs, and the vast majority of them get jobs, and stay off welfare, or pursue higher education through band funding or other studen loan programs. It's a higly successful program, geared to the native community. They do everything different from a normal city programs. There are cases where people are in skill programs who are there for that reason only, but they have high success rates too.

Then it sounds like an excellent program. Maybe if we had something like that, things would change in this state (or at least in the city I'm referring to). It's simple.. People have to *want* to help themselves. Then, things that are in place for those people will work.. It takes work.. Not handouts. Unfortunately, our city seems like a giant vicious cycle of uselessness. Milwaukee is the *last* place in WI they should have opened a casino.

 

[no1tovote4]

Yes, but with a holistic approach.

I could support a system like that in every state.

 

[Said1]

Then it sounds like an excellent program. Maybe if we had something like that, things would change in this state (or at least in the city I'm referring to). It's simple.. People have to *want* to help themselves. Then, things that are in place for those people will work.. It takes work.. Not handouts. Unfortunately, our city seems like a giant vicious cycle of uselessness. Milwaukee is the *last* place in WI they should have opened a casino.

I forgot, there are conditions, you have to give a certain amount of your time to the program or event of your choice (pow wow, clothing drive ect) and if you don't pull your weight, you get in shit with a capital S! The skill programs are funded through social services too or your band association.

 

[Shattered]

I forgot, there are conditions, you have to give a certain amount of your time to the program or event of your choice (pow wow, clothing drive ect) and if you don't pull your weight, you get in shit with a capital S! The skill programs are funded through social services too or your band association.

Ah ha! A backup plan. Define "Shit".

 

[Bonnie]

THAT is an outstanding idea.. I wonder if that would work here... Hell.. Just the upgrade in clothes should have them feeling good enough about themselves to *want* to go farther...

It makes all the difference in the world. These various charity organizations send out mailers letting people know what they are asking for and when a trck will be coming by to pick up the clothing or an address in which you can drop off clothing on your own, then you get a receipt for tax purposes. The clothing is then stored in a warehouse type facility on racks and the ladies starting new jobs pick out what they like. They were like kids in a candy store. They walked in with sweat pants and walked out dressed in suits. HUGE difference!!

 

[CivilLiberty]

ABOLISH WELFARE
EXCEPT FOR THE DISABLED WHO CAN'T WORK

The disabled that don't work don't get welfare, they get disability.

As far as welfare, it *is* intended only for the truly needy - the problem is not in the systems so much as in the definition of "needy".

As tax payers, we need to ensure that our tax dollars show a return for our "investment". Handing welfare checks over to those who simply wish not to work and spend the day drunk, is immoral. It's called "enabling".

I did a documentary on homeless persons a few years ago. The vast majority were mentally or physically disabled and unable to work. There were only a few that were able (and NOT getting government support), and only one that was able AND getting any form of governmental support.


The article you posted uses superlatives to paint a picture that welfare has gone terribly awry in this country, when in fact the entire welfare system is but a minor blip on the budget.


I do agree however, that certain reforms are in order. My general thoughts:


1) Any able-bodied/minded person must work for a government program commensurate with the amount of pay received.

2) It is critical that we as a society take care of children, to prevent the "welfare cycle" from continuing. One the one hand, women with children should not be forced to work such that it impairs their ability to raise their kids (latch key syndrome). On the other hand, if they cannot take care of their kids on their own, and must receive financial aid from the government, then they must make certain concessions to receive that aid.

a) Pregnancy prevention - Norplant, an implanted birth control device. Available abortion services, and/or mandatory adoption may apply as well.
b) Social monitoring - to ensure the children are being raised and cared for appropriately.
c) Government service - when children are in school, the mothers shall perform services for the government in exchange for their aid. However, said work shall not interfere with their raising and protection of the children.

As a civil libertarian, I don't have much of a "rights" issue here.

There is no "right" to receive a hand out from the government. But if the government wants to spend it's money helping the needed, they can place whatever restrictions on it they find a "compelling government need" for.

3) Should any cash be handed out at all? No. Commodity foods, food coupons, and rent/utility coupons, clothing coupons, and medical coupons.

One thing we found in our documentary - cash is used for alcohol and drugs. If you see a bum on the street begging - they don't need your money for food or shelter. They will use it for alcohol and drugs. If you hand them money, you are enabling their self-destructive behavior. Hand them a can of Vienna sausages instead.

4) The final question is, should the FEDERAL government even be involved? Shouldn't this be a state/local issue? There *is* a problem with these people leaving one state, for another with a better welfare program (it's already a problem here in California, where bums travel here for the higher SDI checks), so some federal intervention may always be needed.


Andy

 

[Bonnie]

Andy I agree that this article goes to the other extreme, but the main point I wanted to bring up about it is the undercurrent of entitlement that has had a big influence on corruption and missuse of the system that you accurately stated was the main problem.

 

[CivilLiberty]

Andy I agree that this article goes to the other extreme, but the main point I wanted to bring up about it is the undercurrent of entitlement that has had a big influence on corruption and missuse of the system that you accurately stated was the main problem.

As you know I'm not for the "nanny state", be as a society we grow stronger when we look out for the children. Welfare moms popping out kids by the boat load for the extra welfare check is a serious problem, and not for the simple 'burden to taxpayers" one. Such a person clearly holds values that are akin to a leach. And we enable this - and enabling this behavior is what is ultimately immoral. It is this attitude that is destructive.

A

 

[007]

Welfare can't be abolished. That would be racist.

But if you're thinking about getting rid of welfare, then take affirmative action with it.

 

[elephant]

Welfare is basically the world's cheapest peace payment.

I get to live a very comfortable life in a good community with nice people. In exchange I give up a little money to stop the poor, stupid and otherwise undesirable people from becoming a feudal mass intent on revolt against me and my nice neighbors.

If we get rid of these types of programs we will have to enlarge the prison system, as that is where we keep the people who do not fit in the welfare system. Unless prisons are cheaper I like the status quo.

 

[Shattered]

Welfare is basically the world's cheapest peace payment.

I get to live a very comfortable life in a good community with nice people. In exchange I give up a little money to stop the poor, stupid and otherwise undesirable people from becoming a feudal mass intent on revolt against me and my nice neighbors.

If we get rid of these types of programs we will have to enlarge the prison system, as that is where we keep the people who do not fit in the welfare system. Unless prisons are cheaper I like the status quo.

It sounds like you're just bound and determined to support them one way or the other.. Why? Not a one of them would be willing to support you.. Not one of them would be willing to have *their* handouts cut to give someone else a bit of help...

 

[elephant]

It sounds like you're just bound and determined to support them one way or the other.. Why? Not a one of them would be willing to support you.. Not one of them would be willing to have *their* handouts cut to give someone else a bit of help...

I am paying to make sure "one of them" never has any authority over my life, ever. I call it appeasement, do you have a better plan?

 

[Shattered]

I am paying to make sure "one of them" never has any authority over my life, ever. I call it appeasement, do you have a better plan?

I call it bribery...which generally doesn't work forever.

Better plan? Yes. Reread the rest of the thread. Lots of people came up with great ideas. No sense encouraging laziness. If we're going to reform the welfare program, the prisons need to be reformed right along with it, thus not making them a "better" option than getting a job.

Currently, they get 3 square meals a day in prison - why? They're not earning them.

Currently, they get clothes in prison - why? They're not earning them.

Currently, they get books, TV, and other hobbies in prison - why? They're not earning them.

Currently, they get heat and electricity in prison - why? They're not earning it.

Put them in a 6' by 6' room with 1 match, and 1 candle a day. A sandwich is enough to keep them from starving to death. No hobbies - they're there as *punishment*. Punish them.

Suddenly, working looks like it'll bring a rather bright future, doesn't it?

 

[007]

I am paying to make sure "one of them" never has any authority over my life, ever. I call it appeasement, do you have a better plan?

Yeah... it's called "MAKE THEM GET A JOB"!

I don't buy into that 'plan' of yours. It's redistribution of wealth, and that my good person, is "COMMUNISM".

 

[Bonnie]

I am paying to make sure "one of them" never has any authority over my life, ever. I call it appeasement, do you have a better plan?

Wow you really are a brave person, might want to rethink a name change from Elephant to doormat.

Curious as to how appeasing welfare recipiants secures your autonomy??