A World Without Capitalism and Tradable Shares?

[Toddsterpatriot]

Because there are no equities to turbocharge with massive fictitious capital, finance becomes delightfully boring—and stable.

Well that's true, that if you destroy the banking system, the banking system won't have any problems. I agree with that.

But that would also ignore the fact that you will harm the reallocation of resources. Meaning, that one thing banks do, is move resources from investors to producers.

Public banks could allocate resources as effectively as private banks without the rampant speculation that has crashed this economy three times in twenty years:

Overthrow the Speculators

"Speculators at megabanks or investment firms such as Goldman Sachs are not, in a strict sense, capitalists.

"They do not make money from the means of production.

"Rather, they ignore or rewrite the law — ostensibly put in place to protect the vulnerable from the powerful — to steal from everyone, including their shareholders.

"They are parasites.

"They feed off the carcass of industrial capitalism.

"They produce nothing.

"They make nothing.

"They just manipulate money.

"Speculation in the 17th century was a crime.

"Speculators were hanged.

"We can wrest back control of our economy, and finally our political system, from corporate speculators only by building local movements that decentralize economic power through the creation of hundreds of publicly owned state, county and city banks."

Public banks could allocate resources as effectively as private banks without the rampant speculation that has crashed this economy three times in twenty years:

Exactly!

Just imagine how great a Public Bank of Chicago would do......

There wouldn't be any speculation as far as the politically connected loans with taxpayer dollars that would occur. These loans would default at a massive rate. No chance for these loans to inflate a speculative bubble leading to a crash.

"Speculation in the 17th century was a crime.

And in the Soviet Union much more recently. How'd that work out
for the Soviet Union. Their economy bigger than ours yet?

"We can wrest back control of our economy, and finally our political system, from corporate speculators

Right! Political speculators are much better than corporate speculators. DURR.

local movements that decentralize economic power through the creation of hundreds of publicly owned state, county and city banks."

If at first you don't succeed, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail again.

 

[Andylusion]

How would a company ever exist to begin with, without the money to buy the property, build the buildings, buy or have built the machinery, and setup all the work stations?

Possibly in a similar fashion to privately held companies today. A group of workers would apply for a zero-interest loan from the Federal Reserve and then apply worker-self-directed enterprise principles to follow a path laid out by Koch Industries:
Political activities of the Koch brothers - Wikipedia

Privately held company - Wikipedia

"Though less visible than their publicly traded counterparts, private companies have major importance in the world's economy.

"In 2008, the 441 largest private companies in the United States accounted for US$1,800,000,000,000 ($1.8 trillion) in revenues and employed 6.2 million people, according to Forbes."

But again... you are borrowing money in the system that exists today. Under your system, the system that exists today, doesn't exist.

The Federal reserve doesn't have any money, that doesn't come from big corporations.

In your system, no such corporations exist. You just said there are no tradable assets. Where do you think the Federal Reserve gets money to loan? From tradable assets.

There won't be any money to borrow from the Fed.

Further, you are bit crazy if you think you can loan out tens of millions of dollars to random people. Because remember, before you have a company, you have just random people. And you are going to give those random people millions on millions to start a company? You'll end up with Solydra.

Besides that, do you think average workers have any idea how to come up with a product? Will those random worker know which product to try and make? Will they know how to even build a building to run the factory in? Will they know how to setup the equipment?

No they won't. Do you? I don't. Most of the people I have worked with didn't.

This is a ridiculous concept.

 

[georgephillip]

"States drop all personal and sales taxes, instead taxing only corporate revenues, land, and activities detrimental to the commons."

Not possible. Total corporate profits for 2019, were roughly $2.13 Trillion dollars. Even if you taxed corporations 100%, you would not even have enough money for Medicare and Social Security.

That's $2.13 trillion in Q4 of 2019, and did you miss the land tax? How about property taxes on stocks and bonds? Wealth tax??

Georgism - Wikipedia

"Georgism, also called in modern times geoism[2] and known historically as the single tax movement, is an economic ideology holding that while people should own the value they produce themselves, the economic rent derived from land, including from all natural resources and the commons, should belong equally to all members of society."

 

[georgephillip]

When a baby is born, the central bank automatically grants her or him a trust fund (or personal capital account) that is periodically topped up with a universal basic dividend.

Why would I work, if I'm going to get paid to stay home?

Maybe you're greedy, or you might decide to engage in lifelong learning? There would not be any laws outlawing work, so you would have license to toil to your hearts content as long as you didn't exploit another human being in the process.

 

[georgephillip]

For example, the whole reason mortgage backed securities exist, is because government created securities to sell, which then allows banks to gain capital to make mortgages.

Government guaranteed privately created securities, but failed to enforce regulations prohibiting fraud which, in the end, is what Wall Street is all about.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

How would a company ever exist to begin with, without the money to buy the property, build the buildings, buy or have built the machinery, and setup all the work stations?

Possibly in a similar fashion to privately held companies today. A group of workers would apply for a zero-interest loan from the Federal Reserve and then apply worker-self-directed enterprise principles to follow a path laid out by Koch Industries:
Political activities of the Koch brothers - Wikipedia

Privately held company - Wikipedia

"Though less visible than their publicly traded counterparts, private companies have major importance in the world's economy.

"In 2008, the 441 largest private companies in the United States accounted for US$1,800,000,000,000 ($1.8 trillion) in revenues and employed 6.2 million people, according to Forbes."

But again... you are borrowing money in the system that exists today. Under your system, the system that exists today, doesn't exist.

The Federal reserve doesn't have any money, that doesn't come from big corporations.

In your system, no such corporations exist. You just said there are no tradable assets. Where do you think the Federal Reserve gets money to loan? From tradable assets.

There won't be any money to borrow from the Fed.

Further, you are bit crazy if you think you can loan out tens of millions of dollars to random people. Because remember, before you have a company, you have just random people. And you are going to give those random people millions on millions to start a company? You'll end up with Solydra.

Besides that, do you think average workers have any idea how to come up with a product? Will those random worker know which product to try and make? Will they know how to even build a building to run the factory in? Will they know how to setup the equipment?

No they won't. Do you? I don't. Most of the people I have worked with didn't.

This is a ridiculous concept.

The Federal reserve doesn't have any money, that doesn't come from big corporations.

The Fed creates money out of thin air.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

"States drop all personal and sales taxes, instead taxing only corporate revenues, land, and activities detrimental to the commons."

Not possible. Total corporate profits for 2019, were roughly $2.13 Trillion dollars. Even if you taxed corporations 100%, you would not even have enough money for Medicare and Social Security.

That's $2.13 trillion in Q4 of 2019, and did you miss the land tax? How about property taxes on stocks and bonds? Wealth tax??

Georgism - Wikipedia

"Georgism, also called in modern times geoism[2] and known historically as the single tax movement, is an economic ideology holding that while people should own the value they produce themselves, the economic rent derived from land, including from all natural resources and the commons, should belong equally to all members of society."

economic ideology holding that while people should own the value they produce themselves

Why? To quote Obama, you didn't build that.

 

[georgephillip]

Then why has no economy anywhere in the world, which engaged in such a system, ever resulted in something better than capitalism?

Because capitalism has strangled all attempts from the Bolsheviks to Castro. Adam Smith recorded the discovery of America and the passage to the East Indies as "the most important events in the history of mankind."

New markets for European goods and sources of raw material led to the global economy we see today. Capitalists will never allow any economic alternative that threatens their imperial profits that originate from eternal way and endless debt until the internal contradictions inherent in capitalism bring the entire global system down around their ears.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Then why has no economy anywhere in the world, which engaged in such a system, ever resulted in something better than capitalism?

Because capitalism has strangled all attempts from the Bolsheviks to Castro. Adam Smith recorded the discovery of America and the passage to the East Indies as "the most important events in the history of mankind."

New markets for European goods and sources of raw material led to the global economy we see today. Capitalists will never allow any economic alternative that threatens their imperial profits that originate from eternal way and endless debt until the internal contradictions inherent in capitalism bring the entire global system down around their ears.

Because capitalism has strangled all attempts from the Bolsheviks to Castro.

But communism is a better mousetrap....how could it be strangled by weak, old, corrupt capitalism?

 

[Andylusion]

Where does that money come from? Because the typical way to getting that capital, is by selling shares of the company, but you just said they can't be bought or sold, thus no one would have any reason to give money to a company.

Where did the money for Mondragon come from?

Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia

"The Mondragon Corporation is a corporation and federation of worker cooperatives based in the Basque region of Spain.

"It is the largest cooperative in the world.[4]

"It was founded in the town of Mondragon in 1956 by José María Arizmendiarrieta and a group of his students at a technical college he founded. Its first product was paraffin heaters.

"It is the seventh-largest Spanish company in terms of asset turnover and the leading business group in the Basque Country.

"At the end of 2016, it employed 74,117 people in 257 companies and organizations in four areas of activity: finance, industry, retail and knowledge."

Capital gains are not the only source of compensating initial investors/workers. Imagine a WSDE cooperative version of a successful tech company earning a billion$ a year.

No individual associated with such an enterprise could earn more than one percent of total revenues.

No employee of such an enterprise would earn less than ten percent of the highest paid worker.

Like I said before. Go read the testimonies of people who worked for Mondragon.

The workers have zero voice in the operation of the company. Zero.

They don't earn more money than people at other similar jobs. They don't have any real vote in how the company operates.

Workers are so completely detached from any aspect of the company, that Mondragon has to make it a company rule to force workers to come to company meetings. The workers saw it as a waste of time, and thus the company had to make it mandatory to show up at the coop meetings.

No individual associated with such an enterprise could earn more than one percent of total revenues.
No employee of such an enterprise would earn less than ten percent of the highest paid worker.

So here's my one point on this.... Why would that matter?

Seriously... why does that matter to you at all?

Mondragon does not pay it's employees any differently, or more money, than any other similar store.

The cashier at Mondragon, makes the same money, as the cashier at another store.

So let's pretend for a moment, that you imposed this on Walmart.

So you are at Walmart making $10/hour.

Across the street is Mejiers where cashiers make.... $10/hour.

You reduced how much the CEO of Walmart makes. Because now he can only earn 10 times as much, or $200,000 a year.

But what is that to you? You still make just $10/hour. No more money than the guy across the street at Mejiers making $10/hour.

Why do you care? There is only one reason you would care, and that would be if you are motivated by envy and hate. Because the CEO earning less money doesn't benefit you at all.

It reminds me of when I was in high school, there were two grocery stores that I could apply for a job at. One was unionized. A student in school tried to get me to go to that store for a job. I went to the non-union store instead. I earned exactly the same amount of money as the guy at the Union job, except.... I didn't have Union dues I had to pay.

And lastly, the biggest myth in this entire story, is that somehow things are more equal. Things are not more equal at Mondragon than anywhere else. Not even close.

Mondragon Executives enjoying an all paid Champaign dinner at an expensive elite venue in Spain.

Desayuno Empresarial con Ãñigo UcÃn, presidente de MONDRAGON

navarracapital.es

You think the cashiers at Mondragon are more equal to the executives? Really? The base hourly worker at Mondragon, is no 'more equal' to the CEOs and executives at Mondragon, than the cashiers at Walmart to the Executives at Walmart.

They have no more voice in how the company runs at Mondragon than a cashier at Walmart.

Now don't get me wrong....

If you want that system, by all means open your own business, and run it that way. But don't patronize me with this idea that at Mondragon, the wealthy elites are more equal to the hourly worker... they are not. The rich are rich. The poor are poor. Mondragon is no different.

Mondragon works exceptionally hard at keeping up appearances to make it look like they are this egalitarian utopia, but that is just to fool the gullible that want to believe it.

That said, by the way... I highly doubt your system would work in a high end tech company.

The reason I doubt it, is that in order to survive in the high end tech, you need to have a vision of the future, and are willing to put in thousands of hours to make that future happen.

Bad CEOs in tech companies result in the companies disappearing. Where is AST Computers? AST Computers were 1/3 of all computers sold in the 1990s. Where are they today? Gone. They don't exist. Bad CEO, bad future vision, company.

You can't even have a CEO that just coasts along. Apple computer had John Sculley in the 1990s, and Apple computer almost went the same way as AST Computers, and some even called for them to close.

Then came Steve Jobs, with a vision, and a future, and put in thousands on thousands of hours to make it happen.

That doesn't happen by chance. If you think you are going to get quality CEOs like Steve Jobs, by offering $200K a year, you are wrong. A workers Co-op for Apple computer, would have resulted in Apple no longer existing. Steve Jobs would have been at a new company somewhere else, making billion dollar products.

But if you want to try it.... I'm not opposed. By all means, build your own company, and run it like a co-op. Best of luck.

 

[Andylusion]

Because there are no equities to turbocharge with massive fictitious capital, finance becomes delightfully boring—and stable.

Well that's true, that if you destroy the banking system, the banking system won't have any problems. I agree with that.

But that would also ignore the fact that you will harm the reallocation of resources. Meaning, that one thing banks do, is move resources from investors to producers.

Public banks could allocate resources as effectively as private banks without the rampant speculation that has crashed this economy three times in twenty years:

Overthrow the Speculators

"Speculators at megabanks or investment firms such as Goldman Sachs are not, in a strict sense, capitalists.

"They do not make money from the means of production.

"Rather, they ignore or rewrite the law — ostensibly put in place to protect the vulnerable from the powerful — to steal from everyone, including their shareholders.

"They are parasites.

"They feed off the carcass of industrial capitalism.

"They produce nothing.

"They make nothing.

"They just manipulate money.

"Speculation in the 17th century was a crime.

"Speculators were hanged.

"We can wrest back control of our economy, and finally our political system, from corporate speculators only by building local movements that decentralize economic power through the creation of hundreds of publicly owned state, county and city banks."

Public banks could allocate resources as effectively as private banks without the rampant speculation that has crashed this economy three times in twenty years:

Could.... but they don't. We know this from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Fannie and Freddie are government run banks.

They were the LARGEST of all of the crashes during the sub-prime crash.

Moreover, they were caught openly fabricating results in 2004, and Franklin Raines the CEO that had the books cooked SPECIFICALLY TO TRIGGER BONUSES.... nothing happened to him.

So... yeah public banks could have rainbows and unicorns to usher in the Utopia... but they don't. They don't.

We've seen this clearly. The absolute worst and most expensive bailout of the entire sub-prime crash, was Fannie and Freddie. And we caught them engaged in open fraud, the government defended them. No one went to prison.

Why would we want that system?

 

[Andylusion]

"States drop all personal and sales taxes, instead taxing only corporate revenues, land, and activities detrimental to the commons."

Not possible. Total corporate profits for 2019, were roughly $2.13 Trillion dollars. Even if you taxed corporations 100%, you would not even have enough money for Medicare and Social Security.

That's $2.13 trillion in Q4 of 2019, and did you miss the land tax? How about property taxes on stocks and bonds? Wealth tax??

Georgism - Wikipedia

"Georgism, also called in modern times geoism[2] and known historically as the single tax movement, is an economic ideology holding that while people should own the value they produce themselves, the economic rent derived from land, including from all natural resources and the commons, should belong equally to all members of society."

How about property taxes

If you tax 100% of the profits of corporations.... there won't be any property taxes collected.

How do I pay your property tax, if you take away all my profits? What am I going to pay your tax with? The money I have to pay my workers wages?

taxes on stocks

Again if you tax 100% of profits... there won't be any stocks to tax. The value of a stock, is in how much the company that stock ownership is in, makes in profits.

You just taxed those profits away. The value of the stock is zero. There won't be any stock taxes to collect.

Wealth tax

A wealth tax results in people leaving. When France put in place a wealth tax, the wealth packed up and left.

My parents will move to Canada, before they let you tax away all the wealthy they spent 70 years earning.

the economic rent derived from land, including from all natural resources and the commons, should belong equally to all members of society.

I get the idea. It's a false, and immoral idea. You sucking air, does not entitle you to the value of anything. Sorry. Just because a lady somewhere uncrossed her legs, does not mean you deserve the value of resources that you didn't buy, you didn't earn, you didn't work for, and you had nothing to do with.

What you are suggesting is immoral.

 

[Andylusion]

When a baby is born, the central bank automatically grants her or him a trust fund (or personal capital account) that is periodically topped up with a universal basic dividend.

Why would I work, if I'm going to get paid to stay home?

Maybe you're greedy, or you might decide to engage in lifelong learning? There would not be any laws outlawing work, so you would have license to toil to your hearts content as long as you didn't exploit another human being in the process.

If everyone engages in lifelong learning, who is going to spend the thousands of hours growing food for you to eat?

No one.

You wouldn't need to outlaw work. I just wouldn't..... work. Why would I work for your benefit, when I don't have to?

And no I wouldn't exploit anyone. Nor would I do anything for your benefit. That electricity you are using right now... I'm not building a power plant to keep your lights on. Nor am I going to build a solar panel or wind turbine for you. And why would anyone?

If you pay me to stay home..... I'm staying home. You can just freeze to death in the winter.

Why would anyone, anywhere, do anything, that benefits you? And if no one does... how do you survive? Explain that.

 

[Andylusion]

For example, the whole reason mortgage backed securities exist, is because government created securities to sell, which then allows banks to gain capital to make mortgages.

Government guaranteed privately created securities, but failed to enforce regulations prohibiting fraud which, in the end, is what Wall Street is all about.

There was no mass fraud. And no, it's not what wall street is all about. You are just ignorant.

 

[Andylusion]

How would a company ever exist to begin with, without the money to buy the property, build the buildings, buy or have built the machinery, and setup all the work stations?

Possibly in a similar fashion to privately held companies today. A group of workers would apply for a zero-interest loan from the Federal Reserve and then apply worker-self-directed enterprise principles to follow a path laid out by Koch Industries:
Political activities of the Koch brothers - Wikipedia

Privately held company - Wikipedia

"Though less visible than their publicly traded counterparts, private companies have major importance in the world's economy.

"In 2008, the 441 largest private companies in the United States accounted for US$1,800,000,000,000 ($1.8 trillion) in revenues and employed 6.2 million people, according to Forbes."

But again... you are borrowing money in the system that exists today. Under your system, the system that exists today, doesn't exist.

The Federal reserve doesn't have any money, that doesn't come from big corporations.

In your system, no such corporations exist. You just said there are no tradable assets. Where do you think the Federal Reserve gets money to loan? From tradable assets.

There won't be any money to borrow from the Fed.

Further, you are bit crazy if you think you can loan out tens of millions of dollars to random people. Because remember, before you have a company, you have just random people. And you are going to give those random people millions on millions to start a company? You'll end up with Solydra.

Besides that, do you think average workers have any idea how to come up with a product? Will those random worker know which product to try and make? Will they know how to even build a building to run the factory in? Will they know how to setup the equipment?

No they won't. Do you? I don't. Most of the people I have worked with didn't.

This is a ridiculous concept.

The Federal reserve doesn't have any money, that doesn't come from big corporations.

The Fed creates money out of thin air.

I disagree.

The Fed exchanges assets for credits. Those assets have to have value, or the banks don't get any credits.

That implies that corporations have to create something of value to begin with.

And, even if right now they are in fact printing money, even then... money only has value in exchanging it with products that are created by corporations.

Without the corporations making products, money has no value. This is why when the printing of money in say Venezuela, exceeds the amount of products created, the value declines, and the money becomes worthless.

The same would happen here in the US.

 

[Andylusion]

Then why has no economy anywhere in the world, which engaged in such a system, ever resulted in something better than capitalism?

Because capitalism has strangled all attempts from the Bolsheviks to Castro. Adam Smith recorded the discovery of America and the passage to the East Indies as "the most important events in the history of mankind."

New markets for European goods and sources of raw material led to the global economy we see today. Capitalists will never allow any economic alternative that threatens their imperial profits that originate from eternal way and endless debt until the internal contradictions inherent in capitalism bring the entire global system down around their ears.

Well of course no human being just accepts having what they rightfully built and created, stolen from them.

Capitalists will never allow any economic alternative that threatens their imperial profits that originate from eternal way and endless debt until the internal contradictions inherent in capitalism bring the entire global system down around their ears.

Capitalism has nothing to do with debt.

Debt is caused by spending more than you make. There is zero reason for any person, or any government, to spend more money than it makes.

Every citizen in the US today, could cut up their credit cards, and spend less than they make, and end up wealthy.

I've done it. I have zero debt anywhere. Car is paid for in full. House is paid for in full. No credit. No loans. I have money in the bank, and tens of thousands in stock in my retirement.

Anyone can do this. It's a choice.

Same with government. Government could cut spending, reform social security medicare. And by the way, that's the irony is that you claim it's a fault of capitalism, and blame government spending, which is largely on socialist programs.

You can't point to socialism, and blame capitalism. Sorry.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

How would a company ever exist to begin with, without the money to buy the property, build the buildings, buy or have built the machinery, and setup all the work stations?

Possibly in a similar fashion to privately held companies today. A group of workers would apply for a zero-interest loan from the Federal Reserve and then apply worker-self-directed enterprise principles to follow a path laid out by Koch Industries:
Political activities of the Koch brothers - Wikipedia

Privately held company - Wikipedia

"Though less visible than their publicly traded counterparts, private companies have major importance in the world's economy.

"In 2008, the 441 largest private companies in the United States accounted for US$1,800,000,000,000 ($1.8 trillion) in revenues and employed 6.2 million people, according to Forbes."

But again... you are borrowing money in the system that exists today. Under your system, the system that exists today, doesn't exist.

The Federal reserve doesn't have any money, that doesn't come from big corporations.

In your system, no such corporations exist. You just said there are no tradable assets. Where do you think the Federal Reserve gets money to loan? From tradable assets.

There won't be any money to borrow from the Fed.

Further, you are bit crazy if you think you can loan out tens of millions of dollars to random people. Because remember, before you have a company, you have just random people. And you are going to give those random people millions on millions to start a company? You'll end up with Solydra.

Besides that, do you think average workers have any idea how to come up with a product? Will those random worker know which product to try and make? Will they know how to even build a building to run the factory in? Will they know how to setup the equipment?

No they won't. Do you? I don't. Most of the people I have worked with didn't.

This is a ridiculous concept.

The Federal reserve doesn't have any money, that doesn't come from big corporations.

The Fed creates money out of thin air.

I disagree.

The Fed exchanges assets for credits. Those assets have to have value, or the banks don't get any credits.

That implies that corporations have to create something of value to begin with.

And, even if right now they are in fact printing money, even then... money only has value in exchanging it with products that are created by corporations.

Without the corporations making products, money has no value. This is why when the printing of money in say Venezuela, exceeds the amount of products created, the value declines, and the money becomes worthless.

The same would happen here in the US.

The Fed exchanges assets for credits.

The credits are "thin air money".

Those assets have to have value, or the banks don't get any credits.

They could trade for oil, grain, tobacco, anything. So? They don't need a big corporation to do it.

 

[Andylusion]

How would a company ever exist to begin with, without the money to buy the property, build the buildings, buy or have built the machinery, and setup all the work stations?

Possibly in a similar fashion to privately held companies today. A group of workers would apply for a zero-interest loan from the Federal Reserve and then apply worker-self-directed enterprise principles to follow a path laid out by Koch Industries:
Political activities of the Koch brothers - Wikipedia

Privately held company - Wikipedia

"Though less visible than their publicly traded counterparts, private companies have major importance in the world's economy.

"In 2008, the 441 largest private companies in the United States accounted for US$1,800,000,000,000 ($1.8 trillion) in revenues and employed 6.2 million people, according to Forbes."

But again... you are borrowing money in the system that exists today. Under your system, the system that exists today, doesn't exist.

The Federal reserve doesn't have any money, that doesn't come from big corporations.

In your system, no such corporations exist. You just said there are no tradable assets. Where do you think the Federal Reserve gets money to loan? From tradable assets.

There won't be any money to borrow from the Fed.

Further, you are bit crazy if you think you can loan out tens of millions of dollars to random people. Because remember, before you have a company, you have just random people. And you are going to give those random people millions on millions to start a company? You'll end up with Solydra.

Besides that, do you think average workers have any idea how to come up with a product? Will those random worker know which product to try and make? Will they know how to even build a building to run the factory in? Will they know how to setup the equipment?

No they won't. Do you? I don't. Most of the people I have worked with didn't.

This is a ridiculous concept.

The Federal reserve doesn't have any money, that doesn't come from big corporations.

The Fed creates money out of thin air.

I disagree.

The Fed exchanges assets for credits. Those assets have to have value, or the banks don't get any credits.

That implies that corporations have to create something of value to begin with.

And, even if right now they are in fact printing money, even then... money only has value in exchanging it with products that are created by corporations.

Without the corporations making products, money has no value. This is why when the printing of money in say Venezuela, exceeds the amount of products created, the value declines, and the money becomes worthless.

The same would happen here in the US.

The Fed exchanges assets for credits.

The credits are "thin air money".

Those assets have to have value, or the banks don't get any credits.

They could trade for oil, grain, tobacco, anything. So? They don't need a big corporation to do it.

Which one of those isn't produced from large corporations?

I can't think of even one.

Even if I somehow saved up the money to dig my own oil well, or anything else... how do I do that without the help of a major corporation? Where do I get a drilling rig to drill the oil well, that isn't made by a major corporation? Where do I get the seed stock from, to plant a field, that does not come from a major corporation? What farm combine do I get that isn't made by a major corporation?

What this nimrod George is pushing, is the end of all corporation, and if you think there will be any assets at all to trade without corporations, I respectfully disagree.

You tell me what oil refinery exists, that can produce fuel from oil, that isn't run by a corporation.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

How would a company ever exist to begin with, without the money to buy the property, build the buildings, buy or have built the machinery, and setup all the work stations?

Possibly in a similar fashion to privately held companies today. A group of workers would apply for a zero-interest loan from the Federal Reserve and then apply worker-self-directed enterprise principles to follow a path laid out by Koch Industries:
Political activities of the Koch brothers - Wikipedia

Privately held company - Wikipedia

"Though less visible than their publicly traded counterparts, private companies have major importance in the world's economy.

"In 2008, the 441 largest private companies in the United States accounted for US$1,800,000,000,000 ($1.8 trillion) in revenues and employed 6.2 million people, according to Forbes."

But again... you are borrowing money in the system that exists today. Under your system, the system that exists today, doesn't exist.

The Federal reserve doesn't have any money, that doesn't come from big corporations.

In your system, no such corporations exist. You just said there are no tradable assets. Where do you think the Federal Reserve gets money to loan? From tradable assets.

There won't be any money to borrow from the Fed.

Further, you are bit crazy if you think you can loan out tens of millions of dollars to random people. Because remember, before you have a company, you have just random people. And you are going to give those random people millions on millions to start a company? You'll end up with Solydra.

Besides that, do you think average workers have any idea how to come up with a product? Will those random worker know which product to try and make? Will they know how to even build a building to run the factory in? Will they know how to setup the equipment?

No they won't. Do you? I don't. Most of the people I have worked with didn't.

This is a ridiculous concept.

The Federal reserve doesn't have any money, that doesn't come from big corporations.

The Fed creates money out of thin air.

I disagree.

The Fed exchanges assets for credits. Those assets have to have value, or the banks don't get any credits.

That implies that corporations have to create something of value to begin with.

And, even if right now they are in fact printing money, even then... money only has value in exchanging it with products that are created by corporations.

Without the corporations making products, money has no value. This is why when the printing of money in say Venezuela, exceeds the amount of products created, the value declines, and the money becomes worthless.

The same would happen here in the US.

The Fed exchanges assets for credits.

The credits are "thin air money".

Those assets have to have value, or the banks don't get any credits.

They could trade for oil, grain, tobacco, anything. So? They don't need a big corporation to do it.

Which one of those isn't produced from large corporations?

I can't think of even one.

Even if I somehow saved up the money to dig my own oil well, or anything else... how do I do that without the help of a major corporation? Where do I get a drilling rig to drill the oil well, that isn't made by a major corporation? Where do I get the seed stock from, to plant a field, that does not come from a major corporation? What farm combine do I get that isn't made by a major corporation?

What this nimrod George is pushing, is the end of all corporation, and if you think there will be any assets at all to trade without corporations, I respectfully disagree.

You tell me what oil refinery exists, that can produce fuel from oil, that isn't run by a corporation.

Which one of those isn't produced from large corporations?

Doesn't matter. The Fed could create money by buying from Mom and Pop companies.
Or by buying bonds, like it does now.
Nothing they do now is impossible in the absence of large corporations.

Even if I somehow saved up the money to dig my own oil well, or anything else... how do I do that without the help of a major corporation?

Let's not mix up arguments. George's borrowed idea to have "electoral college shares" is moronic.

 

[Andylusion]

How would a company ever exist to begin with, without the money to buy the property, build the buildings, buy or have built the machinery, and setup all the work stations?

Possibly in a similar fashion to privately held companies today. A group of workers would apply for a zero-interest loan from the Federal Reserve and then apply worker-self-directed enterprise principles to follow a path laid out by Koch Industries:
Political activities of the Koch brothers - Wikipedia

Privately held company - Wikipedia

"Though less visible than their publicly traded counterparts, private companies have major importance in the world's economy.

"In 2008, the 441 largest private companies in the United States accounted for US$1,800,000,000,000 ($1.8 trillion) in revenues and employed 6.2 million people, according to Forbes."

But again... you are borrowing money in the system that exists today. Under your system, the system that exists today, doesn't exist.

The Federal reserve doesn't have any money, that doesn't come from big corporations.

In your system, no such corporations exist. You just said there are no tradable assets. Where do you think the Federal Reserve gets money to loan? From tradable assets.

There won't be any money to borrow from the Fed.

Further, you are bit crazy if you think you can loan out tens of millions of dollars to random people. Because remember, before you have a company, you have just random people. And you are going to give those random people millions on millions to start a company? You'll end up with Solydra.

Besides that, do you think average workers have any idea how to come up with a product? Will those random worker know which product to try and make? Will they know how to even build a building to run the factory in? Will they know how to setup the equipment?

No they won't. Do you? I don't. Most of the people I have worked with didn't.

This is a ridiculous concept.

The Federal reserve doesn't have any money, that doesn't come from big corporations.

The Fed creates money out of thin air.

I disagree.

The Fed exchanges assets for credits. Those assets have to have value, or the banks don't get any credits.

That implies that corporations have to create something of value to begin with.

And, even if right now they are in fact printing money, even then... money only has value in exchanging it with products that are created by corporations.

Without the corporations making products, money has no value. This is why when the printing of money in say Venezuela, exceeds the amount of products created, the value declines, and the money becomes worthless.

The same would happen here in the US.

The Fed exchanges assets for credits.

The credits are "thin air money".

Those assets have to have value, or the banks don't get any credits.

They could trade for oil, grain, tobacco, anything. So? They don't need a big corporation to do it.

Which one of those isn't produced from large corporations?

I can't think of even one.

Even if I somehow saved up the money to dig my own oil well, or anything else... how do I do that without the help of a major corporation? Where do I get a drilling rig to drill the oil well, that isn't made by a major corporation? Where do I get the seed stock from, to plant a field, that does not come from a major corporation? What farm combine do I get that isn't made by a major corporation?

What this nimrod George is pushing, is the end of all corporation, and if you think there will be any assets at all to trade without corporations, I respectfully disagree.

You tell me what oil refinery exists, that can produce fuel from oil, that isn't run by a corporation.

Which one of those isn't produced from large corporations?

Doesn't matter. The Fed could create money by buying from Mom and Pop companies.
Or by buying bonds, like it does now.
Nothing they do now is impossible in the absence of large corporations.

Even if I somehow saved up the money to dig my own oil well, or anything else... how do I do that without the help of a major corporation?

Let's not mix up arguments. George's borrowed idea to have "electoral college shares" is moronic.

Buying what bonds? There are only two kinds of bonds. Corporate bonds, and government bonds. The government can't buy their own bonds, that would result in a bubble and crash. And we just eliminated the possibility of corporate bonds. So where do you buy those bonds from?

The Fed could create money by buying from Mom and Pop companies.

I would be beyond absolutely shocked, if you could possibly raise enough money to do anything, by buying mom&pop companies.

But even then... what mom&pop company would exist without major corporations?

I've worked at mom&pop shops. Several in fact. I can't think of a single one that would still be in business, without major corporations.

I worked for a trucking company that was a small operation. Volvo trucks come from a major corporation. In his world, that company doesn't exist, or any other truck manufacturer. So where is that mom&pop trucking company going to get a truck from?

I worked for a small family owned car repair business. Where do you think they got replacement parts from?

I worked at a small company that made printers. Where do you think the print heads were manufactured? Where were the metal cases made? Where were the electronic sensors made? Where did the tools we used to put them together, come from?

Everything we used, ever part, every tool, every metal plate, every screw, sensor, every electronic part from the simple resistor, to the 80186 Intel chip, being made by AMD, was all, every single thing, made by a major corporation.

What business could really exist without corporations that George would have cease to exist?

I can't think of hardly a single one. Maybe a guy peddling flowers he picked from the woods? And how would government get money from him to do anything?

I'm skeptical of your claim.