A World Without Capitalism and Tradable Shares?

How would a company ever exist to begin with, without the money to buy the property, build the buildings, buy or have built the machinery, and setup all the work stations?
Possibly in a similar fashion to privately held companies today. A group of workers would apply for a zero-interest loan from the Federal Reserve and then apply worker-self-directed enterprise principles to follow a path laid out by Koch Industries:
Political activities of the Koch brothers - Wikipedia
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Privately held company - Wikipedia

"Though less visible than their publicly traded counterparts, private companies have major importance in the world's economy.

"In 2008, the 441 largest private companies in the United States accounted for US$1,800,000,000,000 ($1.8 trillion) in revenues and employed 6.2 million people, according to Forbes."

But again... you are borrowing money in the system that exists today. Under your system, the system that exists today, doesn't exist.

The Federal reserve doesn't have any money, that doesn't come from big corporations.

In your system, no such corporations exist. You just said there are no tradable assets. Where do you think the Federal Reserve gets money to loan? From tradable assets.

There won't be any money to borrow from the Fed.

Further, you are bit crazy if you think you can loan out tens of millions of dollars to random people. Because remember, before you have a company, you have just random people. And you are going to give those random people millions on millions to start a company? You'll end up with Solydra.

Besides that, do you think average workers have any idea how to come up with a product? Will those random worker know which product to try and make? Will they know how to even build a building to run the factory in? Will they know how to setup the equipment?

No they won't. Do you? I don't. Most of the people I have worked with didn't.

This is a ridiculous concept.

The Federal reserve doesn't have any money, that doesn't come from big corporations.

The Fed creates money out of thin air.

I disagree.

The Fed exchanges assets for credits. Those assets have to have value, or the banks don't get any credits.

That implies that corporations have to create something of value to begin with.

And, even if right now they are in fact printing money, even then... money only has value in exchanging it with products that are created by corporations.

Without the corporations making products, money has no value. This is why when the printing of money in say Venezuela, exceeds the amount of products created, the value declines, and the money becomes worthless.

The same would happen here in the US.

The Fed exchanges assets for credits.

The credits are "thin air money".

Those assets have to have value, or the banks don't get any credits.

They could trade for oil, grain, tobacco, anything. So? They don't need a big corporation to do it.

Which one of those isn't produced from large corporations?

I can't think of even one.

Even if I somehow saved up the money to dig my own oil well, or anything else... how do I do that without the help of a major corporation? Where do I get a drilling rig to drill the oil well, that isn't made by a major corporation? Where do I get the seed stock from, to plant a field, that does not come from a major corporation? What farm combine do I get that isn't made by a major corporation?

What this nimrod George is pushing, is the end of all corporation, and if you think there will be any assets at all to trade without corporations, I respectfully disagree.

You tell me what oil refinery exists, that can produce fuel from oil, that isn't run by a corporation.

Which one of those isn't produced from large corporations?

Doesn't matter. The Fed could create money by buying from Mom and Pop companies.
Or by buying bonds, like it does now.
Nothing they do now is impossible in the absence of large corporations.

Even if I somehow saved up the money to dig my own oil well, or anything else... how do I do that without the help of a major corporation?

Let's not mix up arguments. George's borrowed idea to have "electoral college shares" is moronic.

Buying what bonds? There are only two kinds of bonds. Corporate bonds, and government bonds. The government can't buy their own bonds, that would result in a bubble and crash. And we just eliminated the possibility of corporate bonds. So where do you buy those bonds from?

The Fed could create money by buying from Mom and Pop companies.

I would be beyond absolutely shocked, if you could possibly raise enough money to do anything, by buying mom&pop companies.

But even then... what mom&pop company would exist without major corporations?

I've worked at mom&pop shops. Several in fact. I can't think of a single one that would still be in business, without major corporations.

I worked for a trucking company that was a small operation. Volvo trucks come from a major corporation. In his world, that company doesn't exist, or any other truck manufacturer. So where is that mom&pop trucking company going to get a truck from?

I worked for a small family owned car repair business. Where do you think they got replacement parts from?

I worked at a small company that made printers. Where do you think the print heads were manufactured? Where were the metal cases made? Where were the electronic sensors made? Where did the tools we used to put them together, come from?

Everything we used, ever part, every tool, every metal plate, every screw, sensor, every electronic part from the simple resistor, to the 80186 Intel chip, being made by AMD, was all, every single thing, made by a major corporation.

What business could really exist without corporations that George would have cease to exist?

I can't think of hardly a single one. Maybe a guy peddling flowers he picked from the woods? And how would government get money from him to do anything?

I'm skeptical of your claim.

The government can't buy their own bonds, that would result in a bubble and crash.

Until 2008, the Fed only bought government bonds.

I would be beyond absolutely shocked, if you could possibly raise enough money to do anything, by buying mom&pop companies.

Yes, it would be a pain in the ass, but it could be done.

You should really get off this Fed diversion you've stumbled onto. Because it's clear your understanding of the issue is imperfect at best.

But even then... what mom&pop company would exist without major corporations?

The rest of your post is off the topic of central banks creating money.
George's corporate idea is beyond stupid. I don't need you to point out any more of its flaws.
 
By the way, you realize that every single corporation could be taken private. How would fund the government, when all the corporations disappear?
Are you suggesting private corporations don't pay taxes?

Koch Brothers Could $1.4 Billion Tax Cut From The Law They Helped Pass

"The Koch brothers are tied for 8th richest person in the world, with each worth over $48 billion. They run Koch Industries, the second biggest private corporation in America, a conglomerate they inherited from their father with an estimated $100 billion in annual revenue."
 
By the way, you realize that every single corporation could be taken private. How would fund the government, when all the corporations disappear?
Are you suggesting private corporations don't pay taxes?

Koch Brothers Could $1.4 Billion Tax Cut From The Law They Helped Pass

"The Koch brothers are tied for 8th richest person in the world, with each worth over $48 billion. They run Koch Industries, the second biggest private corporation in America, a conglomerate they inherited from their father with an estimated $100 billion in annual revenue."

You know that private corporations have stocks and shares that are tradable, right?

Just because you are a private corporation, doesn't mean there are not stocks. It just means that the stocks of the private company, are not publicly traded.

So when you said there would be no tradable assets, are you exempting private corporations?

Because then I can see this working. Now, you need to remember that there will be ramifications from that.

Union pensions? Those are gone. 401K, and IRAs? Those are gone. Life insurance and annuities? Those are gone. The Alaska fund and other government funds? Gone. Endowments for higher education? Gone.

All those things are invested in tradable assets, and all of them would cease to exist.

This one of the beautiful things about the stock market, is that it allows normal people to benefit from the companies. A guy like me, who last year didn't even earn $20,000, can still buy stock in companies like GE, and Apple, and make a return on our investment.

But I can't invest in a private company. At least not without a ton of hassle making it prohibitive.

Forcing all companies to go private, is a great way to make the poor, poorer, and the rich richer.

Additionally, you keep acting like you can just tax as much as you want from the rich. But we've seen how that works in all nations of the world. If you attempt to levy taxes against the rich, to pay for the poor, the rich leave.

This is why no nation anywhere does that. That's why the tax rate on the poorest people in Denmark is 40%, and that doesn't include the 25% sales tax the poor have to pay on everything they buy.

Your system doesn't work. *shrug*
 
Huh? How does this work? Are companies obligated to take on employees who want to "freely" move from company to company? Are they allowed to reject some and accept others? Are people required to work? So many questions. So few answers.
I've moved freely between dozens of different companies over my 45 years in capitalist purgatory, so why do you think it would be any different in worker-self-directed enterprises?
 
You will "transcend" gravity before you transcend capitalism. Your scheme would mean the collapse of civilization. Anything you can't sell has no value. What would be the point of these shares?
Capitalism has been in existence for a few hundred years.
How long has gravity held sway?


Opinion | A world without capitalism is not too hard to envision

"But enough reverie for now. The point is to suggest, just before the New Year, the wondrous possibilities of a truly liberal, post-capitalist, technologically advanced society.

"Those who refuse to imagine it are bound to fall prey to the absurdity pointed out by my friend Slavoj Žižek: a greater readiness to fathom the end of the world than to imagine life after capitalism."
 
Are you saying NAZI socialism was a fraud? I've got news for you, moron: all socialism is fraud.
Nazis killed German communists and millions of Soviet socialists. Nazis were capitalists as much as they were white supremacists.
Stalin killed millions of Soviet socialists.. According to your logic, that means Stalin wasn't a socialist.

Nazis were not capitalists, and whether they were white supremecists is irrelevant as to whether they were socialists.
 
Huh? How does this work? Are companies obligated to take on employees who want to "freely" move from company to company? Are they allowed to reject some and accept others? Are people required to work? So many questions. So few answers.
I've moved freely between dozens of different companies over my 45 years in capitalist purgatory, so why do you think it would be any different in worker-self-directed enterprises?

I'm not entirely sure, but I think his point was, if you pay people universal basic income... why would they work?

When the Mayflower landed and created the Mayflower compact, everyone was guaranteed a home, and food. And the result was, no one worked. People stayed at home, doing their own thing, because... why work?

Even if people do some work, they are going to do easy work. I might stand a couple of hours at the cash register, but I'm not climbing up on your roof to fix a leak. Why would I do that? That's hard work, and you are openly saying your going to tax away my hard earned income, so I might as well stick to easy simple jobs, in doors, in the air conditioning.

And farming is hard work. Why would I do that? Ranching is hard work, why do it?

And without people doing those jobs, you starve to death.

Then we see that play out in Venezuela and other places. It should not be surprising.
 
For the same reason, we also don't need a national government.
There may be hope for you after all:auiqs.jpg:
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"'Withering away of the state' is a Marxist concept coined by Friedrich Engels referring to the idea that, with realization of socialism, the social institution of a state will eventually become obsolete and disappear as the society will be able to govern itself without the state and its coercive enforcement of the law."

Withering away of the state - Wikipedia
 
Anyone who believes anything Noam Chomsky has to say is a certifiable moron.
Chomsky's the most important public intellectual in US history; you're not.

"Avram Noam Chomsky
[a] (born December 7, 1928) is an American linguist, philosopher, cognitive scientist, historian,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky#cite_note-20[c] social critic, and political activist.

"Sometimes called 'the father of modern linguistics',[d] Chomsky is also a major figure in analytic philosophy and one of the founders of the field of cognitive science.

"He is Laureate Professor of Linguistics at the University of Arizona and Institute Professor Emeritus at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), and is the author of more than 150 books on topics such as linguistics, war, politics, and mass media. Ideologically, he aligns with anarcho-syndicalism and libertarian socialism."

Noam Chomsky - Wikipedia
 
Anyone who believes anything Noam Chomsky has to say is a certifiable moron.
Chomsky's the most important public intellectual in US history; you're not.

"Avram Noam Chomsky
[a] (born December 7, 1928) is an American linguist, philosopher, cognitive scientist, historian,Noam Chomsky - Wikipedia[c] social critic, and political activist.

"Sometimes called 'the father of modern linguistics',[d] Chomsky is also a major figure in analytic philosophy and one of the founders of the field of cognitive science.

"He is Laureate Professor of Linguistics at the University of Arizona and Institute Professor Emeritus at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), and is the author of more than 150 books on topics such as linguistics, war, politics, and mass media. Ideologically, he aligns with anarcho-syndicalism and libertarian socialism."

Noam Chomsky - Wikipedia
He's "important" only because so many morons take his word as gospel. That doesn't alter the fact that everything he says have been proven wrong 1000 times over. He's a crackpot. Chomsky is a linguist, not an economist. Why anyone should listen to what he says about economics, war, politics or mass media totally escapes me. The fact that he's an anarcho syndalism is all the proof needed to demonstrate that he's a crackpot.
 
For the same reason, we also don't need a national government.
There may be hope for you after all:auiqs.jpg:
View attachment 455435
"'Withering away of the state' is a Marxist concept coined by Friedrich Engels referring to the idea that, with realization of socialism, the social institution of a state will eventually become obsolete and disappear as the society will be able to govern itself without the state and its coercive enforcement of the law."

Withering away of the state - Wikipedia
One of the dumbest ideas Friedrich Engels ever published. The state doesn't "wither away" under socialism. It becomes omnipotent.
 
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Huh? How does this work? Are companies obligated to take on employees who want to "freely" move from company to company? Are they allowed to reject some and accept others? Are people required to work? So many questions. So few answers.
I've moved freely between dozens of different companies over my 45 years in capitalist purgatory, so why do you think it would be any different in worker-self-directed enterprises?
That's your idea, not his. He's pointing out why it's stupid.
 

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