A World Without Capitalism and Tradable Shares?

[bripat9643]

And no society exists without state government. There is no 'self-governing' society, because when you tell everyone that they are a law to themselves, they kill, steal, and vandalize.

Because all pre-existing societies were constrained by natural and artificial scarcity; that will not always be the case assuming a small minority of parasites does not continue to "own" the collective means of production.

Communist society - Wikipedia

"In Marxist thought, a communist society or the communist system is the type of society and economic system postulated to emerge from technological advances in the productive forces, representing the ultimate goal of the political ideology of communism.

"A communist society is characterized by common ownership of the means of production with free access[1][2] to the articles of consumption and is classless and stateless,[3] implying the end of the exploitation of labour.[4]"

In other words, it's an impossible fairy tale.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

And no society exists without state government. There is no 'self-governing' society, because when you tell everyone that they are a law to themselves, they kill, steal, and vandalize.

Because all pre-existing societies were constrained by natural and artificial scarcity; that will not always be the case assuming a small minority of parasites does not continue to "own" the collective means of production.

Communist society - Wikipedia

"In Marxist thought, a communist society or the communist system is the type of society and economic system postulated to emerge from technological advances in the productive forces, representing the ultimate goal of the political ideology of communism.

"A communist society is characterized by common ownership of the means of production with free access[1][2] to the articles of consumption and is classless and stateless,[3] implying the end of the exploitation of labour.[4]"

More commie barf? Do they pay you george?

Do they pay you george?

According to his ability.........so not very much

 

[georgephillip]

More commie barf? Do they pay you george?

Are you a wage-slave?

Communist society - Wikipedia

"Communism is a specific stage of socioeconomic development predicated upon a superabundance of material wealth, which is postulated to arise from advances in production technology and corresponding changes in the social relations of production.

"This would allow for distribution based on need and social relations based on freely-associated individuals.[4][5][6]"

 

[dblack]

More commie barf? Do they pay you george?

Are you a wage-slave?

Nope. The entire concept is a sickening insult to people who were real slaves.

 

[georgephillip]

Nope. The entire concept is a sickening insult to people who were real slaves.

Private ownership of the means of production means human labor is just another commodity subject to the dominion of capital no less than land or fuel, or buildings.

Wage slavery - Wikipedia

"Karl Marx described capitalist society as infringing on individual autonomy because it is based on a materialistic and commodified concept of the body and its liberty (i.e. as something that is sold, rented, or alienated in a class society). According to Friedrich Engels:[36][37]

"The slave is sold once and for all; the proletarian must sell himself daily and hourly. The individual slave, property of one master, is assured an existence, however miserable it may be, because of the master's interest. The individual proletarian, property as it were of the entire bourgeois class which buys his labor only when someone has need of it, has no secure existence."

 

[dblack]

Nope. The entire concept is a sickening insult to people who were real slaves.

Private ownership of the means of production means human labor is just another commodity subject to the dominion of capital no less than land or fuel, or buildings.

Wage slavery - Wikipedia

"Karl Marx described capitalist society as infringing on individual autonomy because it is based on a materialistic and commodified concept of the body and its liberty (i.e. as something that is sold, rented, or alienated in a class society). According to Friedrich Engels:[36][37]

"The slave is sold once and for all; the proletarian must sell himself daily and hourly. The individual slave, property of one master, is assured an existence, however miserable it may be, because of the master's interest. The individual proletarian, property as it were of the entire bourgeois class which buys his labor only when someone has need of it, has no secure existence."

Keep digging. People who sell their labor are not slaves. They are not owned. They can always tell an employer to fuck off. Unless your employer is the government (like what you want). Then you better do as you are told.

"Wage slaves" are not slaves. Again, real slaves wouldn't appreciate the equivocation.

 

[Andylusion]

And no society exists without state government. There is no 'self-governing' society, because when you tell everyone that they are a law to themselves, they kill, steal, and vandalize.

Because all pre-existing societies were constrained by natural and artificial scarcity; that will not always be the case assuming a small minority of parasites does not continue to "own" the collective means of production.

Communist society - Wikipedia

"In Marxist thought, a communist society or the communist system is the type of society and economic system postulated to emerge from technological advances in the productive forces, representing the ultimate goal of the political ideology of communism.

"A communist society is characterized by common ownership of the means of production with free access[1][2] to the articles of consumption and is classless and stateless,[3] implying the end of the exploitation of labour.[4]"

Right, I understand what they claim communism would be. Never how it works in reality. In reality, you end up with a tyrannical state controlling everything, with non-state people being poor, and the members of the state being rich.

It has never worked out the way the communists have claimed it would, since the ideology came into existence.

 

[Andylusion]

Nope. The entire concept is a sickening insult to people who were real slaves.

Private ownership of the means of production means human labor is just another commodity subject to the dominion of capital no less than land or fuel, or buildings.

Wage slavery - Wikipedia

"Karl Marx described capitalist society as infringing on individual autonomy because it is based on a materialistic and commodified concept of the body and its liberty (i.e. as something that is sold, rented, or alienated in a class society). According to Friedrich Engels:[36][37]

"The slave is sold once and for all; the proletarian must sell himself daily and hourly. The individual slave, property of one master, is assured an existence, however miserable it may be, because of the master's interest. The individual proletarian, property as it were of the entire bourgeois class which buys his labor only when someone has need of it, has no secure existence."

There is no such thing as wage slavery. Read the story of Chris Gardner. He was a black man, in the 1980s, homeless, from a broken family, a wife that ditched him, and a son he had to take care of.

Today he's a multi-millionaire.

Similarly, I have a friend that worked at Walmart, and used their tuition reimbursement program to get a degree, and today is a civil engineer.

There is no such thing as wage slavery. It doesn't exist. The only people that are slave to wages, are people who make bad choices, and refuse to make the sacrifices necessary to move up, so they end up staying where they are by choice.

 

[georgephillip]

Right, I understand what they claim communism would be. Never how it works in reality. In reality, you end up with a tyrannical state controlling everything, with non-state people being poor, and the members of the state being rich.

Because stateless communism comes from socialism which comes from capitalism the same way capitalism cam from feudalism and feudalism came from slavery.

https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/blogs.cofc.edu/dist/6/519/files/2012/11/Ideology-History.pdf

 

[georgephillip]

There is no such thing as wage slavery. It doesn't exist. The only people that are slave to wages, are people who make bad choices, and refuse to make the sacrifices necessary to move up, so they end up staying where they are by choice.

"The slave was precious to his master because of the money he had cost him ... They were worth at least as much as they could be sold for in the market ... It is the impossibility of living by any other means that compels our farm labourers to till the soil whose fruits they will not eat and our masons to construct buildings in which they will not live ...

"It is want that compels them to go down on their knees to the rich man in order to get from him permission to enrich him ... what effective gain [has] the suppression of slavery brought [him ?] He is free, you say. Ah! That is his misfortune ... These men ... [have] the most terrible, the most imperious of masters, that is, need. ... They must therefore find someone to hire them, or die of hunger. Is that to be free?"

Wage slavery - Wikipedia

 

[dblack]

There is no such thing as wage slavery. It doesn't exist. The only people that are slave to wages, are people who make bad choices, and refuse to make the sacrifices necessary to move up, so they end up staying where they are by choice.

"The slave was precious to his master because of the money he had cost him ... They were worth at least as much as they could be sold for in the market ... It is the impossibility of living by any other means that compels our farm labourers to till the soil whose fruits they will not eat and our masons to construct buildings in which they will not live ...

"It is want that compels them to go down on their knees to the rich man in order to get from him permission to enrich him ... what effective gain [has] the suppression of slavery brought [him ?] He is free, you say. Ah! That is his misfortune ... These men ... [have] the most terrible, the most imperious of masters, that is, need. ... They must therefore find someone to hire them, or die of hunger. Is that to be free?"

Wage slavery - Wikipedia

If you repeat a lie often enough, some people will believe it.

And employer can't shackle employees, has no power over them other than voluntary payment for voluntary labor.

Socialists lie, because that's all they got.

 

[Andylusion]

Right, I understand what they claim communism would be. Never how it works in reality. In reality, you end up with a tyrannical state controlling everything, with non-state people being poor, and the members of the state being rich.

Because stateless communism comes from socialism which comes from capitalism the same way capitalism cam from feudalism and feudalism came from slavery.
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https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/blogs.cofc.edu/dist/6/519/files/2012/11/Ideology-History.pdf

But it hasn't happened that way. I get that this is what Marx taught... but Marx was wrong. Capitalism existed since the time Human beings existed.

The very first farmer that sold produce, to get wealth to buy more land, to hire more servants, to produce more goods.... that was capitalism.

Capitalism is the default standard for all human existence. If you go to an isolated tribal people, they have property rights. If you doubt that, try and take their mud hut from them, and see what happens.

 

[Andylusion]

There is no such thing as wage slavery. It doesn't exist. The only people that are slave to wages, are people who make bad choices, and refuse to make the sacrifices necessary to move up, so they end up staying where they are by choice.

"The slave was precious to his master because of the money he had cost him ... They were worth at least as much as they could be sold for in the market ... It is the impossibility of living by any other means that compels our farm labourers to till the soil whose fruits they will not eat and our masons to construct buildings in which they will not live ...

"It is want that compels them to go down on their knees to the rich man in order to get from him permission to enrich him ... what effective gain [has] the suppression of slavery brought [him ?] He is free, you say. Ah! That is his misfortune ... These men ... [have] the most terrible, the most imperious of masters, that is, need. ... They must therefore find someone to hire them, or die of hunger. Is that to be free?"

Wage slavery - Wikipedia

Still doesn't change anything I said. If you believe that wage slaves are not free, and can't change the situation of their life, then explain how Chris Gardner, a homeless black man with no family to support him, was able to start his own company and become a multi-millionaire?

And there are thousands of such examples. Thousands. Thousand on thousands.

 

[georgephillip]

And employer can't shackle employees, has no power over them other than voluntary payment for voluntary labor

Comparing wage slavery to block slavery isn't equating the two; it is acknowledging that capitalist wage labor is shot through with subjugation and democratizing the workplace solves that problem.

Bernie Sanders Was Right to Talk About Wage Slavery. We Should Talk About It, Too.

"Just consider who controls one of the body’s most essential functions: going to the bathroom.

"Workers in the United States can be forced to urinate during employer-mandated drug testing; or forbidden from urinating if it isn’t break time.

"In Amazon warehouses, workers, whose every move is tracked, forego trips to the restroom to avoid being disciplined or fired for too much 'time off task.'

"In a poultry-packing plant, employees were forced to wear diapers to work because they said they knew they would be let go if they demanded the bathroom breaks their bosses denied them.

"Employers control or seek to control many other aspects of workers’ lives, from their Facebook posts and political speech to the wages they earn and the rates at which they work.

"It is no surprise, then, that there is a long history of comparing capitalist wage labor to chattel slavery."