A way to improve our country starting November 4th

Ken Mac

Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2019
Messages
1,682
Reaction score
856
Points
930
Location
South Carolina
" And before it's said this is not a call for communism. "

Yes it is, although you don't seem to realize it. You're talking about raising taxes on everybody and redistributing it according to the gov'ts determination of needs. That is de facto communism, perhaps not your intended result but it is the final outcome once the gov't gets control of who gets what. Should someone with more talent, ambition, perseverance, and hard work benefit from that? You say no, that person has to pay more in taxes to pay for improving the lifestyle of someone who doesn't even make the effort. Merit gets you nothing or next to nothing extra, but I'd bet your connections would in your world. That's how reality works, if you're Hunter Biden then you're all for it; but if you're nobody then you're fucked.
Not quite what I am saying. If I were to go into more detail about a redistribution then I would not go along with what many in the Democratic Party are advocating for which is increased taxes on the wealthiest to help supplement the income or lives of the poorest people or even people that basically mooch off of the system. The redistribution of wealth and the dismantling of capitalism is not a belief that I have. My belief is in using capitalism to create systems that benefit all that pay in. So for example with healthcare for me everybody would pay in to that system, janitor to CEO to doctor to fisherman, and so on, and create that system to where it gives everybody equal interest and equal ownership in seeing it succeed. This a lengthier topic though.
"So for example with healthcare for me everybody would pay in to that system, janitor to CEO to doctor to fisherman, and so on, and create that system to where it gives everybody equal interest and equal ownership in seeing it succeed."

Yeah, but that's not what Biden and the democrats want, or at least what they're saying. Biden wants to raise taxes on only the wealthy that make $400,000 or more, and that just ain't close to being enough. Estimates I've seen for single payer or Medicare for All put the cost at something like $30 trillion over 10 years, which means everybody has to pay in and a lot of money too. But Biden and the democrats are not being honest about the cost, they don't tell us that part cuz they know the raising taxes to cover the real cost of healthcare for everybody is quite staggering and people won't vote for that.

My opinion, if it's free then people will abuse it. And BTW we don't have enough providers and facilities to handle the increase in demand. There's gotta be some skin in th game, over and above your taxes; if you've smoked and drinked, and done drugs, and got grossly overweight and now you've got health problems, am I supposed to help pay for your excesses? If we as a society do that, are we dis-incentivizing people to live a healthy lifestyle cuz we'll still take care of you if you don't?
I agree that the healthcare system that Biden and the Democrats want is not realistic and it's also not the system that I would advocate for. The standard Democratic system is to tax the rich so that we all have free healthcare, that's obviously unrealistic. What I would call for is increased taxes for all citizens, both flat tax and a tax based on income bracket, along with increased sales tax, business taxes and so on, which would all go towards investing in a system for all citizens that we all pay into and all have the incentive to want to have it succeed. It wouldn't be "free" either unless you are a child or a senior citizen. Everybody would have to pay a deductible every year out of pocket and then once that deductible is reached and then a future service would be "free" for the remainder of that calendar year with exceptions. It would still bring money into the system through the services provided along side the increased funding through taxes. There's more detail that will come from it but the point is that i'm not calling for what Biden wants.
You're calling for socialism. A "system" that is controlled by the government is socialism. The government is not efficient at ANYTHING and produces NOTHING except infrastructure. Our government is a tax on the products we produce. The government is blood sucking overhead.
It's not really a matter of one system or the other in my opinion. It's not really an either/or. We can utilize capitalism for the betterment of the many and not just the individual. A nationalized universal healthcare system that is primarily funded by basic taxes and payroll contributions generated by the capitalist would not make the US a "socialist" country but just blending certain economic systems for certain social systems. I'm not saying that private health insurance would be banned or anything like that, but if we made a universal system good enough and fair enough then the vast majority of the country would probably opt in.
Give this a go. This is what I think ought to be done.

Everyone gets free checkups and preventative care. Preventative care goes a long way in reducing costs down the road. Any "disaster" health issue over 75K per year (or pick your number) will be taken care of by taxes collected from the people. People can utilize private insurance to cover up to 75K with a deductible they choose and they pay the premium for the private insurance.

I'd go for that.

The 75K is to ensure no one is buried for life in debt because of a medical condition.

I really think this is doable.
 

initforme

Gold Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2011
Messages
14,190
Reaction score
1,694
Points
265
When the rich win the average guy loses. Both sides are eager to say it's false but they know it's true.
 

fncceo

Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Messages
26,326
Reaction score
10,963
Points
950
I don't really view the existence of taxation in order to help fund shared investments within our country to be theft.
There is no such thing as 'shared investment'.
You invest your money in what you want... I'll invest mine in what I want.

alcohol-cigarettes-pills-glass-whisky-beer-dark-light-41836287.jpg
 

fncceo

Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Messages
26,326
Reaction score
10,963
Points
950
When the rich win the average guy loses.
If you imagine wealth to be equivalent to pizza, where if I get two slices, someone gets none, then you might see it that way.

But, wealth is created literally from nothing. Yesterday's useless sand became today's iPhone.

The vast majority of wealth creation today is intellectual property.
 

TroglocratsRdumb

Platinum Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2017
Messages
17,137
Reaction score
6,858
Points
400
It is impossible to enlighten the brainwashed, but here is another attempt.
The Democrats are not compassionate, they are greedy.
The Democrats are not for unity, they are for division.
Critical Race Theory is not about equality, it is about hate.
Left Wing economics doesn't lift the poor, it enslaves the middle class.
 

TheParser

Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2017
Messages
3,688
Reaction score
1,878
Points
940
I thank the OP for those calm and thoughtful ideas.

I hope that she is right.

Yet I keep thinking of times in history when people made a tragic mistake in judgment.

Of course, one of the biggest was the feeling of some people in Germany that Herr Hitler could never be as bad as some were imagining.

And after World War II, the Chinese people passively let the Communists take over because they thought that they could not be worse than the Nationalists.

And what about those Russians who thought that the Communists could never be as bad as the Czar?

I do believe that this nation is in for a sea change, especially if the Democrats take control of both Houses of Congress and if they are successful in packing the Supreme Court.

Of course, I hope that I am wrong.
 

Mac1958

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2011
Messages
75,148
Reaction score
19,315
Points
2,210
Location
Opposing Authoritarian Ideological Fundamentalism.
I'm just saying that in many ways you already have so much more around you that is basically free and just as rewarding. The fear that you might take home less in a paycheck because of increased taxes would have less of a mental impact on people if people just realized that you can still fully enjoy life without many unnecessary material possessions and wants that end up being the main driver of the need of personal wealth.
What a great thread, thanks for starting it. There's so much to discuss this topic, I'm not sure where to begin. I guess I'll try here:

We have badly misapplied capitalism over the last few decades by injecting so much libertarian thought into it (beginning with taking Reagan's "government is the problem" speech line as gospel) that we have created and nurtured massive inequities in our system. The Meltdown of 2008 should have taught us huge lessons, but they clearly did not. The sin there is that we have so misapplied capitalism that the inequities it has created has opened the door to socialism. It's human nature; when enough people are dissatisfied, they're going to look at other options.

What today's neo-capitalists don't (or can't) understand is that an economic system exists on a continuum. We're not either "capitalist" or "socialist". It's just not that simple, even though they want it to be. The key is finding and maintaining a point on the spectrum at which our great wealth provides a solid foundation for all without retarding the wonderful dynamics of capitalism too much. Now we're literally in danger of losing this great economic system because of simple greed.

I want to ask the purists: What are you afraid of? How are you going to be damaged inside if you're watching a 60-inch TV instead of an 80-inch TV? How is your world attacked if you're getting along with a slightly smaller SUV? Many of us are now so consumed with having stuff that we don't understand that "stuff" doesn't fill the hole inside. What are these people after? Isn't it just contentment, in the end?

Gawd, I could go on this stuff forever. Anyway, thanks again. And by the way, I'm a CFP/Investment Advisor. I deal with this kind of thing with people every day.
 
Last edited:

Mac1958

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2011
Messages
75,148
Reaction score
19,315
Points
2,210
Location
Opposing Authoritarian Ideological Fundamentalism.
Grace explicitly advocated capitalism. Trump advocated increasing prices of goods so American workers could earn more. Are the Trump voters now abandoning his trade policy?
A vast majority of the Right is now hopelessly stuck in this incredibly simplistic and binary "we're either capitalists or commies" routine, and I'm pretty sure they believe it. Far worse than that, though, is that their willful ignorance really is opening the door for socialists in this country to gain a foothold. People are no longer afraid of the word, because they look around and see what neo-capitalism has created in terms of inequities and fraud. The real socialists should be thanking these neo-capitalists for their help.
 
Last edited:

bendog

Platinum Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
Messages
35,368
Reaction score
4,382
Points
1,140
Location
Dog House in back yard
Grace explicitly advocated capitalism. Trump advocated increasing prices of goods so American workers could earn more. Are the Trump voters now abandoning his trade policy?
A vast majority of the Right is now hopelessly stuck in this incredibly simplistic and binary "we're either capitalists or commies" routine, and I'm pretty sure they believe it. Far worse than that, though, is that their willful ignorance really is opening the door for socialists in this country to gain a foothold. People are no longer afraid of the word, because they look around and see what neo-capitalism has created in terms of inequities and fraud. The real socialists should be thanking these neo-capitalists for their help.
Well again, Trump's trade policy is literally that everyone should pay more for goods to that Americans can make them. But Trump was never a conservative for one breathe. He's always been a populist. Conservatives make mistakes like everyone, but a conservative believes in the individual rights of humans. That includes not being locked up for crimes they didn't commit, even if you don't like those people, and Trump some 20plus years on STILL wants the Central Park Five locked up.

Conservatism is not comfortable with govt using taxes as a means to fund benefits for citizens ….
Just where does the Barrett Court intend to go? With Roberts it seemed certain that the interstate commerce clause was out a basis for a govt program, but the govt could pretty much tax as it wanted

Jefferson's and Franklin's morality (Jefferson's slaves aside :)) encompassed Jesus's moral teachings even though neither was a Christian. But nothing in the constitution plainly says the govt can set up soc security or medicare.

So, imo, Grace's thread is maybe the one thread here that actually touches on political theory.
 

New Topics

Most reactions - Past 7 days

Forum List

Top