A very serious thread about race relations

[Correll]

I just don't see Trump as Hitler. I just don't see these mouth-breathers as the SS. I just don't see millions of lives at stake.

Are there similarities to be found, here and there? Sure. On a minor, crackpot level. But that's as far as it goes.

I'm sorry, but I can't help but think that much of this is nothing more than partisan political opportunism.
.

The fact that you're so blind to even the possibility of something like that starting in Trump is what's scary.

Like jillian said, too many "good' people doing nothing. It's how Trump has and is able to maintain his stranglehold on the Republican party thus far.

#SMHGOP

I'm a good person, and when I see people want to smear me as a nazis just because of Trump, I am infuriated.

 

[ricechickie]

If you want to help a community, do it from within. Get to know individuals. Behavior is best addressed one on one. Criticizing a whole race of people from as far away as possible doesn't do any good.

Sorry, that's asking too much.

I have a life, I'm not going out of my way to find troubled black people to help them, one on one.


I'm willing to support policies to address problems that are in the black community.

If we can't do that, because we can't discuss the problems without the discussion being derailed by cries of "racist" then the problems will not be addressed, and people will continue to suffer and die.

Which is exactly what we have been seeing for generations.


I'm up for changing that.


Are you?

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

Folks, even though we should all be willing to take and consider criticism, we're too far gone for that approach.

What this is going to take is each end of this issue to criticize itself, to clean its own house before pointing the finger (I do love mixed metaphors).

We're too sensitive now to listen to the "other side". This has to come from within each "side".
.

That's my point. Criticism of entire groups backfires spectacularly, anyway. Those who take criticism to heart will get defensive because they are probably part of that group that doesn't show that behavior, and yet they're being "targeted." The members of the group who need the criticism won't hear it.

The one doing the criticizing shows themselves as capable of wielding a really large brush.

If someone said to me, "Women are vain," I will get defensive, as a woman who isn't vain, but now feels the weight of an accusation leveled against my whole gender. Especially if charges of vanity are used to pay me less, take me less seriously, and generally marginalize me.

Agreed. But I do think that it's not good that we've reached this point. Honest criticism should not be met with defensiveness and deflection and attacks, and we have definitely seen that from both sides of this.
.

Respectfully, I disagree. I think criticism is taken best when it comes from closer to home. Which is why I agree with your statement that groups clean their own houses first.

Recognizing that even in-house criticism can only do so much.

 

[Mac1958]

I just don't see Trump as Hitler. I just don't see these mouth-breathers as the SS. I just don't see millions of lives at stake.

Are there similarities to be found, here and there? Sure. On a minor, crackpot level. But that's as far as it goes.

I'm sorry, but I can't help but think that much of this is nothing more than partisan political opportunism.
.

The fact that you're so blind to even the possibility of something like that starting in Trump is what's scary.

Like jillian said, too many "good' people doing nothing. It's how Trump has and is able to maintain his stranglehold on the Republican party thus far.

#SMHGOP

I'm a good person, and when I see people want to smear me as a nazis just because of Trump, I am infuriated.

That's where we are, so I guess I'm used to it. And coming from a completely mixed race family, I have to admit it makes me giggle now and then.

But there are clearly people who have no interest in actually improving race relations, and that's one of the points of the thread.
.

 

[Mac1958]

Sorry, that's asking too much.

I have a life, I'm not going out of my way to find troubled black people to help them, one on one.


I'm willing to support policies to address problems that are in the black community.

If we can't do that, because we can't discuss the problems without the discussion being derailed by cries of "racist" then the problems will not be addressed, and people will continue to suffer and die.

Which is exactly what we have been seeing for generations.


I'm up for changing that.


Are you?

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

Folks, even though we should all be willing to take and consider criticism, we're too far gone for that approach.

What this is going to take is each end of this issue to criticize itself, to clean its own house before pointing the finger (I do love mixed metaphors).

We're too sensitive now to listen to the "other side". This has to come from within each "side".
.

That's my point. Criticism of entire groups backfires spectacularly, anyway. Those who take criticism to heart will get defensive because they are probably part of that group that doesn't show that behavior, and yet they're being "targeted." The members of the group who need the criticism won't hear it.

The one doing the criticizing shows themselves as capable of wielding a really large brush.

If someone said to me, "Women are vain," I will get defensive, as a woman who isn't vain, but now feels the weight of an accusation leveled against my whole gender. Especially if charges of vanity are used to pay me less, take me less seriously, and generally marginalize me.

Agreed. But I do think that it's not good that we've reached this point. Honest criticism should not be met with defensiveness and deflection and attacks, and we have definitely seen that from both sides of this.
.

Respectfully, I disagree. I think criticism is taken best when it comes from closer to home. Which is why I agree with your statement that groups clean their own houses first.

Recognizing that even in-house criticism can only do so much.

No, you're right, that's what I mean. We're in no condition right now to be lectured to by people from the "outside", it has to come from within.
.

 

[Correll]

Yes, agreed, but there should be a Step One for each side of this argument. That's how effective communication works. For example, Step One could be (a) to reject any notion that criticism of blacks is racist on its face, AND (b) an admission that old fashioned, ignorant, bigoted racism does indeed still exist and must be culturally eradicated.

Those are the biggest impediments I see in this, among others.
.

Criticism of black individuals isn't racist. Criticism of the black community might not be meant as racist, but it does not help anyone. If someone identifies with a group, and that group is criticized en masse, they are going to be defensive.

As a woman, if I hear, "Women have a real problem with......" I am not going to take it kindly.

Works (or should I say, doesn't work) for political affiliation as well.

So we can't take about problems in the black community.

That ensures that they are NEVER ADDRESSED.


We keep pretending that all the issues are from outside the community, ie white racism, and ignore that all our efforts don't stop the suffering and dying.


Because we are ignoring the real problems. Because it is politically incorrect to discuss them.

Agreed here. Most of our "race" problems are really cultural problems. Regardless of how those differences came to be, they need to be addressed or they will never be resolved. If a college has a problem with underage drinking or date rape, they address it. Some don't like it being addressed, but most will benefit from it being addressed. Same with "race" relations.

One solution that is not working is just throwing money at it. How can a person have self-respect if they know their life is being a mooch? A sponge? A parasite on society? Better if they are given the opportunities to prove their value as human beings and go home respecting themselves.

Best place to start is more and better jobs.

Agreed, but not "busy work". Not "government jobs" where they just show up and collect a paycheck while sitting around talking on cellphones. Self-respect has to be earned.

Agreed.

 

[ricechickie]

I just don't see Trump as Hitler. I just don't see these mouth-breathers as the SS. I just don't see millions of lives at stake.

Are there similarities to be found, here and there? Sure. On a minor, crackpot level. But that's as far as it goes.

I'm sorry, but I can't help but think that much of this is nothing more than partisan political opportunism.
.

The fact that you're so blind to even the possibility of something like that starting in Trump is what's scary.

Like jillian said, too many "good' people doing nothing. It's how Trump has and is able to maintain his stranglehold on the Republican party thus far.

#SMHGOP

I'm a good person, and when I see people want to smear me as a nazis just because of Trump, I am infuriated.

That's fair.

 

[Correll]

Agreed on "tribal nature". As Desmond Morris wrote in his famous book, We're still just "naked apes" at our most basic.

While you are certainly correct about some people picking sides for a sense of belonging, the one's we're most familiar here are on the fringe; ardent partisans who put their backs to the wall and call anyone who opposes them names or their enemy. Forums are a safe place for them because if they did this IRL, they'd get their asses kicked on a regular basis.

What's worrying me is that - at least anecdotally - I'm seeing more and more of this behavior in "real life". People who, in regular conversation, are ready to launch off into some canned tirade against the other "side". With real anger.

I hope what I'm detecting is incorrect, that's for damn sure.
.

It's a phase. They're acting just like our leaders, celebrities and the talking heads on television. The louder others talk, the louder a person might shout in order to be heard. After a few more shootings and mass murders, most people will come to their senses. It's a natural cycle.

I do hope you're right.
.

Not sure of your age, but the 1960s was a pretty scary time. Not just the social unrest and mass domestic causalities from riots and entire city blocks on fire, but from both Viet Nam (over 56,000 Americans D-E-A-D) and the constant threat of WWIII and global nuclear annihilation. This is nothing compared to that. Sure, some people will end up dead, but it will be nothing like this:

Watts Riot begins - Aug 11, 1965 - HISTORY.com
The five days of violence left 34 dead, 1,032 injured, nearly 4,000 arrested, and $40 million worth of property destroyed. The Watts riot was the worst urban riot in 20 years and foreshadowed the many rebellions to occur in ensuing years during the 1967 Detroit Riots, the Newark Riots, and other violence.

I do believe that's very possible, but the big thing that has changed the landscape is the internet, which has profoundly separated us even more into tribes. A person doesn't have to leave their home, they don't have to talk to anyone for months, and they can come out one day as a complete zealot.
.

And they can be as big of a jerk as they want, with no push back. and they keep escalating their rudeness to insane levels.

 

[Correll]

Yes, agreed, but there should be a Step One for each side of this argument. That's how effective communication works. For example, Step One could be (a) to reject any notion that criticism of blacks is racist on its face, AND (b) an admission that old fashioned, ignorant, bigoted racism does indeed still exist and must be culturally eradicated.

Those are the biggest impediments I see in this, among others.
.

Criticism of black individuals isn't racist. Criticism of the black community might not be meant as racist, but it does not help anyone. If someone identifies with a group, and that group is criticized en masse, they are going to be defensive.

As a woman, if I hear, "Women have a real problem with......" I am not going to take it kindly.

Works (or should I say, doesn't work) for political affiliation as well.

So we can't take about problems in the black community.

That ensures that they are NEVER ADDRESSED.


We keep pretending that all the issues are from outside the community, ie white racism, and ignore that all our efforts don't stop the suffering and dying.


Because we are ignoring the real problems. Because it is politically incorrect to discuss them.

If you want to help a community, do it from within. Get to know individuals. Behavior is best addressed one on one. Criticizing a whole race of people from as far away as possible doesn't do any good.

Sorry, that's asking too much.

I have a life, I'm not going out of my way to find troubled black people to help them, one on one.


I'm willing to support policies to address problems that are in the black community.

If we can't do that, because we can't discuss the problems without the discussion being derailed by cries of "racist" then the problems will not be addressed, and people will continue to suffer and die.

Which is exactly what we have been seeing for generations.


I'm up for changing that.


Are you?

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

I strongly respect the value of personal observation and even anecdotal evidence.


But I disagree that it is the only way to learn about something.

 

[ricechickie]

Criticism of black individuals isn't racist. Criticism of the black community might not be meant as racist, but it does not help anyone. If someone identifies with a group, and that group is criticized en masse, they are going to be defensive.

As a woman, if I hear, "Women have a real problem with......" I am not going to take it kindly.

Works (or should I say, doesn't work) for political affiliation as well.

So we can't take about problems in the black community.

That ensures that they are NEVER ADDRESSED.


We keep pretending that all the issues are from outside the community, ie white racism, and ignore that all our efforts don't stop the suffering and dying.


Because we are ignoring the real problems. Because it is politically incorrect to discuss them.

If you want to help a community, do it from within. Get to know individuals. Behavior is best addressed one on one. Criticizing a whole race of people from as far away as possible doesn't do any good.

Sorry, that's asking too much.

I have a life, I'm not going out of my way to find troubled black people to help them, one on one.


I'm willing to support policies to address problems that are in the black community.

If we can't do that, because we can't discuss the problems without the discussion being derailed by cries of "racist" then the problems will not be addressed, and people will continue to suffer and die.

Which is exactly what we have been seeing for generations.


I'm up for changing that.


Are you?

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

I strongly respect the value of personal observation and even anecdotal evidence.


But I disagree that it is the only way to learn about something.

If you use secondary sources, they need to be trustworthy. Now there are sources that actively lie and distort.

 

[Correll]

Criticism of black individuals isn't racist. Criticism of the black community might not be meant as racist, but it does not help anyone. If someone identifies with a group, and that group is criticized en masse, they are going to be defensive.

As a woman, if I hear, "Women have a real problem with......" I am not going to take it kindly.

Works (or should I say, doesn't work) for political affiliation as well.

So we can't take about problems in the black community.

That ensures that they are NEVER ADDRESSED.


We keep pretending that all the issues are from outside the community, ie white racism, and ignore that all our efforts don't stop the suffering and dying.


Because we are ignoring the real problems. Because it is politically incorrect to discuss them.

If you want to help a community, do it from within. Get to know individuals. Behavior is best addressed one on one. Criticizing a whole race of people from as far away as possible doesn't do any good.

Sorry, that's asking too much.

I have a life, I'm not going out of my way to find troubled black people to help them, one on one.


I'm willing to support policies to address problems that are in the black community.

If we can't do that, because we can't discuss the problems without the discussion being derailed by cries of "racist" then the problems will not be addressed, and people will continue to suffer and die.

Which is exactly what we have been seeing for generations.


I'm up for changing that.


Are you?

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

Folks, even though we should all be willing to take and consider criticism, we're too far gone for that approach.

What this is going to take, at least at the beginning, is for each end of this issue to criticize itself, to clean its own house before pointing the finger (I do love mixed metaphors).

We're too sensitive now to listen to the "other side". This has to come from within each "side".
.

I've seen some of the internal criticism on the Right about race. It was not constructive.


If there are any real issues on the right, with racism at this point, they have been utterly buried under the false accusations.

 

[Mac1958]

So we can't take about problems in the black community.

That ensures that they are NEVER ADDRESSED.


We keep pretending that all the issues are from outside the community, ie white racism, and ignore that all our efforts don't stop the suffering and dying.


Because we are ignoring the real problems. Because it is politically incorrect to discuss them.

If you want to help a community, do it from within. Get to know individuals. Behavior is best addressed one on one. Criticizing a whole race of people from as far away as possible doesn't do any good.

Sorry, that's asking too much.

I have a life, I'm not going out of my way to find troubled black people to help them, one on one.


I'm willing to support policies to address problems that are in the black community.

If we can't do that, because we can't discuss the problems without the discussion being derailed by cries of "racist" then the problems will not be addressed, and people will continue to suffer and die.

Which is exactly what we have been seeing for generations.


I'm up for changing that.


Are you?

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

Folks, even though we should all be willing to take and consider criticism, we're too far gone for that approach.

What this is going to take, at least at the beginning, is for each end of this issue to criticize itself, to clean its own house before pointing the finger (I do love mixed metaphors).

We're too sensitive now to listen to the "other side". This has to come from within each "side".
.

I've seen some of the internal criticism on the Right about race. It was not constructive.


If there are any real issues on the right, with racism at this point, they have been utterly buried under the false accusations.

That might make it tougher, but it still has to be done. There is still clearly racism - not the Regressives' dishonest, opportunistic definition of it, but real racism - coming from the Right, so the Right can clean its own house first. The other "side" of this argument has its own internal battles to deal with.
.

 

[Correll]

So we can't take about problems in the black community.

That ensures that they are NEVER ADDRESSED.


We keep pretending that all the issues are from outside the community, ie white racism, and ignore that all our efforts don't stop the suffering and dying.


Because we are ignoring the real problems. Because it is politically incorrect to discuss them.

If you want to help a community, do it from within. Get to know individuals. Behavior is best addressed one on one. Criticizing a whole race of people from as far away as possible doesn't do any good.

Sorry, that's asking too much.

I have a life, I'm not going out of my way to find troubled black people to help them, one on one.


I'm willing to support policies to address problems that are in the black community.

If we can't do that, because we can't discuss the problems without the discussion being derailed by cries of "racist" then the problems will not be addressed, and people will continue to suffer and die.

Which is exactly what we have been seeing for generations.


I'm up for changing that.


Are you?

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

I strongly respect the value of personal observation and even anecdotal evidence.


But I disagree that it is the only way to learn about something.

If you use secondary sources, they need to be trustworthy. Now there are sources that actively lie and distort.

IMO, one of the biggest issues in the black community is illegitimacy.


My reading on the problems caused by that, (not limited to black community, but just more of it there)


have been supported by personal interaction and observation of single mothers, specifically blacks single mothers.



I support pro job policies to, among many other reasons, to give black men the economic option of being providers.

I think that all children, including black children, should be taught how much better a two parent family is, than a one parent one.


So that we can reduce illegitimacy, specifically in the black community, to reduce all the effects, crime, drug use, poverty, suicides, ect ect ect


In your opinion, where did I go off the rails?

 

[Correll]

If you want to help a community, do it from within. Get to know individuals. Behavior is best addressed one on one. Criticizing a whole race of people from as far away as possible doesn't do any good.

Sorry, that's asking too much.

I have a life, I'm not going out of my way to find troubled black people to help them, one on one.


I'm willing to support policies to address problems that are in the black community.

If we can't do that, because we can't discuss the problems without the discussion being derailed by cries of "racist" then the problems will not be addressed, and people will continue to suffer and die.

Which is exactly what we have been seeing for generations.


I'm up for changing that.


Are you?

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

Folks, even though we should all be willing to take and consider criticism, we're too far gone for that approach.

What this is going to take, at least at the beginning, is for each end of this issue to criticize itself, to clean its own house before pointing the finger (I do love mixed metaphors).

We're too sensitive now to listen to the "other side". This has to come from within each "side".
.

I've seen some of the internal criticism on the Right about race. It was not constructive.


If there are any real issues on the right, with racism at this point, they have been utterly buried under the false accusations.

That might make it tougher, but it still has to be done. There is still clearly racism - not the Regressives' dishonest, opportunistic definition of it, but real racism - coming from the Right, so the Right can clean its own house first. The other "side" of this argument has its own internal battles to deal with.
.

Yeah, I don't see this as a both sides equal issue.


Outside of the radical fringe nutters, the Right has been anti-racism since before it was cool.


You show me someone, on the right, actually saying or doing something racist, or pushing an actually racist policy, and I'm there.


But right now, I feel like a woman in Salem, and you're telling me, that well all the witch trials were bad, there really are witches in the town, and we have to be honest about that.

 

[Mac1958]

Sorry, that's asking too much.

I have a life, I'm not going out of my way to find troubled black people to help them, one on one.


I'm willing to support policies to address problems that are in the black community.

If we can't do that, because we can't discuss the problems without the discussion being derailed by cries of "racist" then the problems will not be addressed, and people will continue to suffer and die.

Which is exactly what we have been seeing for generations.


I'm up for changing that.


Are you?

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

Folks, even though we should all be willing to take and consider criticism, we're too far gone for that approach.

What this is going to take, at least at the beginning, is for each end of this issue to criticize itself, to clean its own house before pointing the finger (I do love mixed metaphors).

We're too sensitive now to listen to the "other side". This has to come from within each "side".
.

I've seen some of the internal criticism on the Right about race. It was not constructive.


If there are any real issues on the right, with racism at this point, they have been utterly buried under the false accusations.

That might make it tougher, but it still has to be done. There is still clearly racism - not the Regressives' dishonest, opportunistic definition of it, but real racism - coming from the Right, so the Right can clean its own house first. The other "side" of this argument has its own internal battles to deal with.
.

Yeah, I don't see this as a both sides equal issue.


Outside of the radical fringe nutters, the Right has been anti-racism since before it was cool.


You show me someone, on the right, actually saying or doing something racist, or pushing an actually racist policy, and I'm there.


But right now, I feel like a woman in Salem, and you're telling me, that well all the witch trials were bad, there really are witches in the town, and we have to be honest about that.

It doesn't have to be "equal". There is no independent authority keeping score.

If both sides have work to do, they should admit it and get on with the work.

Isn't that reasonable?
.

 

[ricechickie]

If you want to help a community, do it from within. Get to know individuals. Behavior is best addressed one on one. Criticizing a whole race of people from as far away as possible doesn't do any good.

Sorry, that's asking too much.

I have a life, I'm not going out of my way to find troubled black people to help them, one on one.


I'm willing to support policies to address problems that are in the black community.

If we can't do that, because we can't discuss the problems without the discussion being derailed by cries of "racist" then the problems will not be addressed, and people will continue to suffer and die.

Which is exactly what we have been seeing for generations.


I'm up for changing that.


Are you?

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

I strongly respect the value of personal observation and even anecdotal evidence.


But I disagree that it is the only way to learn about something.

If you use secondary sources, they need to be trustworthy. Now there are sources that actively lie and distort.

IMO, one of the biggest issues in the black community is illegitimacy.


My reading on the problems caused by that, (not limited to black community, but just more of it there)


have been supported by personal interaction and observation of single mothers, specifically blacks single mothers.



I support pro job policies to, among many other reasons, to give black men the economic option of being providers.

I think that all children, including black children, should be taught how much better a two parent family is, than a one parent one.


So that we can reduce illegitimacy, specifically in the black community, to reduce all the effects, crime, drug use, poverty, suicides, ect ect ect


In your opinion, where did I go off the rails?

I don't know if you did go off any rails.

Single parents (not just moms) need support, not ostracism. Not that you ostracized any yourself, but the stats about crime, drug use, poverty, etc, is sometimes used to target single moms (especially single black moms) to blame them for being single, and causing those social ills. As if they don't have enough problems.

Yes, a two-parent family is best. People should be taught that.

 

[Correll]

Sorry, that's asking too much.

I have a life, I'm not going out of my way to find troubled black people to help them, one on one.


I'm willing to support policies to address problems that are in the black community.

If we can't do that, because we can't discuss the problems without the discussion being derailed by cries of "racist" then the problems will not be addressed, and people will continue to suffer and die.

Which is exactly what we have been seeing for generations.


I'm up for changing that.


Are you?

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

I strongly respect the value of personal observation and even anecdotal evidence.


But I disagree that it is the only way to learn about something.

If you use secondary sources, they need to be trustworthy. Now there are sources that actively lie and distort.

IMO, one of the biggest issues in the black community is illegitimacy.


My reading on the problems caused by that, (not limited to black community, but just more of it there)


have been supported by personal interaction and observation of single mothers, specifically blacks single mothers.



I support pro job policies to, among many other reasons, to give black men the economic option of being providers.

I think that all children, including black children, should be taught how much better a two parent family is, than a one parent one.


So that we can reduce illegitimacy, specifically in the black community, to reduce all the effects, crime, drug use, poverty, suicides, ect ect ect


In your opinion, where did I go off the rails?

I don't know if you did go off any rails.

Single parents (not just moms) need support, not ostracism. Not that you ostracized any yourself, but the stats about crime, drug use, poverty, etc, is sometimes used to target single moms (especially single black moms) to blame them for being single, and causing those social ills. As if they don't have enough problems.

Yes, a two-parent family is best. People should be taught that.

So, that's the model I will be using instead of "one on one".


And the above position has gotten me called racist, probably literally thousands of times.

 

[Correll]

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

Folks, even though we should all be willing to take and consider criticism, we're too far gone for that approach.

What this is going to take, at least at the beginning, is for each end of this issue to criticize itself, to clean its own house before pointing the finger (I do love mixed metaphors).

We're too sensitive now to listen to the "other side". This has to come from within each "side".
.

I've seen some of the internal criticism on the Right about race. It was not constructive.


If there are any real issues on the right, with racism at this point, they have been utterly buried under the false accusations.

That might make it tougher, but it still has to be done. There is still clearly racism - not the Regressives' dishonest, opportunistic definition of it, but real racism - coming from the Right, so the Right can clean its own house first. The other "side" of this argument has its own internal battles to deal with.
.

Yeah, I don't see this as a both sides equal issue.


Outside of the radical fringe nutters, the Right has been anti-racism since before it was cool.


You show me someone, on the right, actually saying or doing something racist, or pushing an actually racist policy, and I'm there.


But right now, I feel like a woman in Salem, and you're telling me, that well all the witch trials were bad, there really are witches in the town, and we have to be honest about that.

It doesn't have to be "equal". There is no independent authority keeping score.

If both sides have work to do, they should admit it and get on with the work.

Isn't that reasonable?
.

Considering the vast discrepancy between the witch hunt the Left is conducting and the feeble counter response by the Right,

no, it does not seem reasonable.


I will be open to specific examples of real racism on the right, as they come along.


But, the tiny amount of real racism on the Right is not the priority we need to be focused on.

 

[Mac1958]

Folks, even though we should all be willing to take and consider criticism, we're too far gone for that approach.

What this is going to take, at least at the beginning, is for each end of this issue to criticize itself, to clean its own house before pointing the finger (I do love mixed metaphors).

We're too sensitive now to listen to the "other side". This has to come from within each "side".
.

I've seen some of the internal criticism on the Right about race. It was not constructive.


If there are any real issues on the right, with racism at this point, they have been utterly buried under the false accusations.

That might make it tougher, but it still has to be done. There is still clearly racism - not the Regressives' dishonest, opportunistic definition of it, but real racism - coming from the Right, so the Right can clean its own house first. The other "side" of this argument has its own internal battles to deal with.
.

Yeah, I don't see this as a both sides equal issue.


Outside of the radical fringe nutters, the Right has been anti-racism since before it was cool.


You show me someone, on the right, actually saying or doing something racist, or pushing an actually racist policy, and I'm there.


But right now, I feel like a woman in Salem, and you're telling me, that well all the witch trials were bad, there really are witches in the town, and we have to be honest about that.

It doesn't have to be "equal". There is no independent authority keeping score.

If both sides have work to do, they should admit it and get on with the work.

Isn't that reasonable?
.

Considering the vast discrepancy between the witch hunt the Left is conducting and the feeble counter response by the Right,

no, it does not seem reasonable.


I will be open to specific examples of real racism on the right, as they come along.


But, the tiny amount of real racism on the Right is not the priority we need to be focused on.

Sad to see that.
.

 

[ricechickie]

So support policies that address what you think are problems in the black community. I support policies that address what I think are the problems in the Middle East. But neither of us really know fully what's going on there until we really get to know the people of those areas.

So, vociferously criticizing from far away doesn't work.

I strongly respect the value of personal observation and even anecdotal evidence.


But I disagree that it is the only way to learn about something.

If you use secondary sources, they need to be trustworthy. Now there are sources that actively lie and distort.

IMO, one of the biggest issues in the black community is illegitimacy.


My reading on the problems caused by that, (not limited to black community, but just more of it there)


have been supported by personal interaction and observation of single mothers, specifically blacks single mothers.



I support pro job policies to, among many other reasons, to give black men the economic option of being providers.

I think that all children, including black children, should be taught how much better a two parent family is, than a one parent one.


So that we can reduce illegitimacy, specifically in the black community, to reduce all the effects, crime, drug use, poverty, suicides, ect ect ect


In your opinion, where did I go off the rails?

I don't know if you did go off any rails.

Single parents (not just moms) need support, not ostracism. Not that you ostracized any yourself, but the stats about crime, drug use, poverty, etc, is sometimes used to target single moms (especially single black moms) to blame them for being single, and causing those social ills. As if they don't have enough problems.

Yes, a two-parent family is best. People should be taught that.

So, that's the model I will be using instead of "one on one".


And the above position has gotten me called racist, probably literally thousands of times.

Don't expect that model to accomplish much.

You do know that there are single parents whose children do NOT succumb to crime, drugs, and poverty, right? Those single-parent families are going to get defensive, recognizing that no one factor is a guarantee of success or failure.

 

[ricechickie]

Folks, even though we should all be willing to take and consider criticism, we're too far gone for that approach.

What this is going to take, at least at the beginning, is for each end of this issue to criticize itself, to clean its own house before pointing the finger (I do love mixed metaphors).

We're too sensitive now to listen to the "other side". This has to come from within each "side".
.

I've seen some of the internal criticism on the Right about race. It was not constructive.


If there are any real issues on the right, with racism at this point, they have been utterly buried under the false accusations.

That might make it tougher, but it still has to be done. There is still clearly racism - not the Regressives' dishonest, opportunistic definition of it, but real racism - coming from the Right, so the Right can clean its own house first. The other "side" of this argument has its own internal battles to deal with.
.

Yeah, I don't see this as a both sides equal issue.


Outside of the radical fringe nutters, the Right has been anti-racism since before it was cool.


You show me someone, on the right, actually saying or doing something racist, or pushing an actually racist policy, and I'm there.


But right now, I feel like a woman in Salem, and you're telling me, that well all the witch trials were bad, there really are witches in the town, and we have to be honest about that.

It doesn't have to be "equal". There is no independent authority keeping score.

If both sides have work to do, they should admit it and get on with the work.

Isn't that reasonable?
.

Considering the vast discrepancy between the witch hunt the Left is conducting and the feeble counter response by the Right,

no, it does not seem reasonable.


I will be open to specific examples of real racism on the right, as they come along.


But, the tiny amount of real racism on the Right is not the priority we need to be focused on.

You are open to examining specific examples of racism on the right, but have no time or patience for addressing specific examples and anecdotes from the left?