A Tea Party Wants Mandatory Christmas Carols In Public Schools

[Gunny]

Merry Hyatt, Tea Party Patriot, Wants Mandatory Christmas Carols In Public Schools

It's called the "Freedom to Present Christmas Music in Public School Classrooms or Assemblies" initiative.

Merry Hyatt, a substitute teacher and member of the Redding Tea Party Patriots, is behind the push. The Record Searchlight reports:

The initiative would require schools to provide children the opportunity to listen to or perform Christmas carols, and would subject the schools to litigation if the rule isn't followed.

Schools currently are allowed to offer Christmas music as long as it is used for academic purposes rather than devotional purposes and isn't used to promote a particular religious belief, according to an analysis by the California Legislative Analyst's Office.

Parents are allowed to have their students opt out of the caroling if they express that desire in advance.

The initiative has the support of the local Tea Party Patriots president.

Isn't the Tea Parties purpose suppose to be limited Government, not having the Government control our lives, etc. Doesn't this go directly against that?

Sounds like to me more people using the whole concept of "tea parties" to further their own agenda. Thoughts?

Why do you and the Huffington Post wish to misrepresent this as a "Tea Party" event? The article clearly contradicts itself, and you have blindly played along.

Does this one woman represent the voice of "Tea Party-ers"? No. Is this a Tea Party event? No. Does she happen to be a Tea Party member who ALSO has her own personal crusade going? Yes.

Next ......

 

[Emma]

Too bad you didn't read the link in the OP, with its sources:

The initiative has the support of the local Tea Party Patriots president.

[Erin] Ryan [president of the Redding Tea Party Patriots] said Hyatt's initiative falls under the umbrella of causes the group supports, which concern limited government, following the constitution and fiscal responsibility.

p.s. it's on their website, too

Next, indeed.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Too bad you didn't read the link in the OP, with its sources:

The initiative has the support of the local Tea Party Patriots president.

[Erin] Ryan [president of the Redding Tea Party Patriots] said Hyatt's initiative falls under the umbrella of causes the group supports, which concern limited government, following the constitution and fiscal responsibility.

p.s. it's on their website, too

Next, indeed.

The Republican big tent is now the Tea Party sorta big umbrella?

 

[NYcarbineer]

In most cases, an elected School Board - a quasi government group - is elected by the people in a particular school district. I say quasi-government as technically the school board answers to no government authority other than as necessary in order to receive state and federal funds and the school board does have to follow the law of the land.

The school board draws up its own bylaws/rules of conduct, and hires a Superintendent of Schools for that school district. Generally the superintendent has a good deal of input in all school policy and curriculum, but the school board has the final say.

The Superintendent hires/appoints his/her own staff and is responsible to hire or promote Principals for each school in the district. The Principal in turn hires the teachers, coaches, office staff, and any other necessary personnel to work at the school.

A school board is not 'quasi' government, it is a legitimate governing body and one of the most 'local' of all governing bodies in this country.

Well there are gray areas in which you would be right, and I should have clarified that. All school districts are not structured the same; some are under state or other government authority; some are wholly incorporated entities independent of state or other government structures. So I'll withdraw my statement until I have time to fully clarify it assuming anybody really cares. (I was thinking of our state system in which the state actually controls all the school general budget and capital funds throughout the state, but leaves administration to the local school boards who are elected rather than appointed.)

I would think that the Constitution loving limited/small government advocating types would prefer a school board making this decision as opposed to the State - with of course constitutionality overseeing all.

 

[Yurt]

A school board is not 'quasi' government, it is a legitimate governing body and one of the most 'local' of all governing bodies in this country.

Well there are gray areas in which you would be right, and I should have clarified that. All school districts are not structured the same; some are under state or other government authority; some are wholly incorporated entities independent of state or other government structures. So I'll withdraw my statement until I have time to fully clarify it assuming anybody really cares. (I was thinking of our state system in which the state actually controls all the school general budget and capital funds throughout the state, but leaves administration to the local school boards who are elected rather than appointed.)

I would think that the Constitution loving limited/small government advocating types would prefer a school board making this decision as opposed to the State - with of course constitutionality overseeing all.

and if you actually did your homework you would know they would more prefer to have the community/parents/students to have the power to make the decicsion rather than a few admin officials....that is what this case is about, but you libs have perverted it over and over in this thread....

it is simply about allowing the community to make the decision, not a few school board officials, it boggles the mind how upset you libs are over freedom and allowing people the opportunity to sing carols about a federal holiday that is celebrated nationally

 

[Vast LWC]

that is all they want....leave it up to the community...not the school admin officials the way it is now....if the opportunity is required and the community doesn't want it, no one is forced to sing carols or anything of the sort....but right now, the power rests with a few admin officials vs. the community

If that's "all they want" they need to change the language of the proposal to reflect that.

What they have now is a mandate that would force schools to devote time and resources to anyone who wanted to "sing or listen to" Christmas Carols.

This is a clear violation of the First Amendment, as it would be using public funds to further the cause of a particular religion which would be the same as: "congress passing a law respecting the establishment of a state religion".

If the proposal read "No School district may oppose the singing of religious songs, hymns, or chanting", then that would be an entirely different matter.

But even that would create an intolerable situation in the classroom, as students would then be able to disrupt class at any point by loudly singing Christmas Carols, or drowning out the teacher with prayers to Allah.

 

[Vast LWC]

Specifically:

52712. (a) Each public elementary and secondary school shall provide
opportunities to its pupils for listening to or performing Christmas music at an
appropriate time ofyear. The appreciation or performance ofthe Christmas music may
be incorporated into the subject matter of an arts or social studies class, presented for
cultural enrichment during a school assembly, or both.

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/i827_initiative_09-0030.pdf

And yes it's from the Huffington Post, (I got it by following the OP's link), but it's a direct pdf copy of the actualy proposal.

 

[Vast LWC]

GOOD--it's about time we got back to traditional values in this country, instead of trying to be politically correct & accomodate all minority religions--with a stupid fear that we may insult them. If they don't like it, move the hell out of this country.

Kids love the Christmas plays & songs--so why deny them that?

And here's a good example of what these people are really after.

"Traditional Values" in this case meaning everyone being Christian.

Or in Ann Coulters words "They should all be converted or killed". She was speaking of Muslims of course, but I'm sure once all the Muslims are dealt with, she'll say the same about any other religion that threatens the sovereignity of Christianity.

 

[Ravi]

Apparently Yurt thinks the meaning of shall is do what ever makes you happy.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

You can't make this stuff up.

 

[maineman]

From the people's elected representatives at the federal, state, and local level.

In most cases, an elected School Board - a quasi government group - is elected by the people in a particular school district. I say quasi-government as technically the school board answers to no government authority other than as necessary in order to receive state and federal funds and the school board does have to follow the law of the land.

The school board draws up its own bylaws/rules of conduct, and hires a Superintendent of Schools for that school district. Generally the superintendent has a good deal of input in all school policy and curriculum, but the school board has the final say.

The Superintendent hires/appoints his/her own staff and is responsible to hire or promote Principals for each school in the district. The Principal in turn hires the teachers, coaches, office staff, and any other necessary personnel to work at the school.

A school board is not 'quasi' government, it is a legitimate governing body and one of the most 'local' of all governing bodies in this country.

absolutely! So when yurt says, "....leave it up to the community...not the school admin officials", he is basically saying that local government should not function as we ought to expect it to... and that pure democracy, where the people vote on each and every issue is how we should run our schools. That sounds patently ridiculous to me.

 

[Yukon]

You people aren't allowed to celebrate Christman in your schools, you can't pray, you can;t mention God, you can't even say Christmas Day is a statutory holiday.

Your crazy CONSTITUTION has ended all of your time honoured traditions.

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS rules the USA. How sad, how pathetic, how pitiful, how truly American.

God help you.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Well there are gray areas in which you would be right, and I should have clarified that. All school districts are not structured the same; some are under state or other government authority; some are wholly incorporated entities independent of state or other government structures. So I'll withdraw my statement until I have time to fully clarify it assuming anybody really cares. (I was thinking of our state system in which the state actually controls all the school general budget and capital funds throughout the state, but leaves administration to the local school boards who are elected rather than appointed.)

I would think that the Constitution loving limited/small government advocating types would prefer a school board making this decision as opposed to the State - with of course constitutionality overseeing all.

and if you actually did your homework you would know they would more prefer to have the community/parents/students to have the power to make the decicsion rather than a few admin officials....that is what this case is about, but you libs have perverted it over and over in this thread....

it is simply about allowing the community to make the decision, not a few school board officials, it boggles the mind how upset you libs are over freedom and allowing people the opportunity to sing carols about a federal holiday that is celebrated nationally

Wrong. This initiative would give the State the power to overrule any schools/boards that would choose not to offer Christmas caroling.

And school board officials are elected representatives, elected by the voters in the school district.

 

[Yukon]

Singing Christmas Carols in a Public School in the USA is ILLEGAL !! The MUSLIMS can sing their songs in American schools but Christian Americans can't.

 

[Yurt]

Apparently Yurt thinks the meaning of shall is do what ever makes you happy.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

You can't make this stuff up.

again...you have yet to explain how this violates the 1st amendment....

this doesn't establish a religion ravi....it is about singing traditional christmas carols....like i keep saying, as long as christmas remains a federal and state holiday, there is absolutely no violation of the 1st amendment, IMO.....the fact you have yet to explain how is telling....at least you've moved up a bit and instead of simply...asshole, idiot....you've nearly made a debate point....i would be interested in how you think this violates the 1st or any part of the constitution, you've claimed it, yet have not explained it

 

[Yurt]

I would think that the Constitution loving limited/small government advocating types would prefer a school board making this decision as opposed to the State - with of course constitutionality overseeing all.

and if you actually did your homework you would know they would more prefer to have the community/parents/students to have the power to make the decicsion rather than a few admin officials....that is what this case is about, but you libs have perverted it over and over in this thread....

it is simply about allowing the community to make the decision, not a few school board officials, it boggles the mind how upset you libs are over freedom and allowing people the opportunity to sing carols about a federal holiday that is celebrated nationally

Wrong. This initiative would give the State the power to overrule any schools/boards that would choose not to offer Christmas caroling.

And school board officials are elected representatives, elected by the voters in the school district.

let me get this right....you're ok with allowing a school board to make the decision, but you're not ok allowing the community to choose to allow students the opportunity to sing carols and if the school doesn't allow it, then they simply go to court and get the approval?

illogical....as if the community has zero say in how local governments are run....i am willing to bet that you fully supported atheists rights to sue in court to avoid saying the pledge because it says "one nation under god".....or, if the school board mandated christmas carols, you would fully support ignoring their decree and support someone suing in court to overturn that decree.....am i correct?

 

[Emma]

You people aren't allowed to celebrate Christman in your schools, you can't pray, you can;t mention God, you can't even say Christmas Day is a statutory holiday.

Of course, you're wrong.

 

[Yurt]

let's see how this focuses on religion, rather than tradition as i've been saying, here is the text....how show me how this violates the constitution:


52710. The people of Califomia find and declare both of the following:
(a) Listening to, or performing, Christmas music during the holiday season is a
longstanding American tradition and a significant element of our cultural heritage as
Americans.
(b) The parents and guardians ofpublic school children should have the right to
decide whether or not their children may hear Christmas music in the classrooms and
assemblies at those schools.
52711. As used in this article, "Christmas music" includes, but is not necessarily
limited to, carols, songs, and instrumental works whose subject matter relates to the
celebration ofthe Christmas holiday or to the season during which that holiday is
observed.


and again, no one is mandated to participate

 

[Yurt]

is anyone against this law:

320. As detailed in Article 2 (commencing with Section 305) and
Article 3 (commencing with Section 310), all California school
children have the right to be provided with an English language
public education. If a California school child has been denied the
option of an English language instructional curriculum in public
school, the child's parent or legal guardian shall have legal
standing to sue for enforcement of the provisions of this statute,
and if successful shall be awarded normal and customary attorney's
fees and actual damages, but not punitive or consequential damages.
Any school board member or other elected official or public school
teacher or administrator who willfully and repeatedly refuses to
implement the terms of this statute by providing such an English
language educational option at an available public school to a
California school child may be held personally liable for fees and
actual damages by the child's parents or legal guardian.

especially those who have issue with parents being able to sue to enforce this thread's proposal.....or complaining how this screw's up local governance etc

 

[NYcarbineer]

and if you actually did your homework you would know they would more prefer to have the community/parents/students to have the power to make the decicsion rather than a few admin officials....that is what this case is about, but you libs have perverted it over and over in this thread....

it is simply about allowing the community to make the decision, not a few school board officials, it boggles the mind how upset you libs are over freedom and allowing people the opportunity to sing carols about a federal holiday that is celebrated nationally

Wrong. This initiative would give the State the power to overrule any schools/boards that would choose not to offer Christmas caroling.

And school board officials are elected representatives, elected by the voters in the school district.

let me get this right....you're ok with allowing a school board to make the decision, but you're not ok allowing the community to choose to allow students the opportunity to sing carols and if the school doesn't allow it, then they simply go to court and get the approval?

The school board members are the elected representatives of the 'community'. If you elect a school board that decides yes to caroling, so be it. If they decide no, so be it. Provided it all stands constitutional muster.

 

[Vast LWC]

let's see how this focuses on religion, rather than tradition as i've been saying, here is the text....how show me how this violates the constitution:


52710. The people of Califomia find and declare both of the following:
(a) Listening to, or performing, Christmas music during the holiday season is a
longstanding American tradition and a significant element of our cultural heritage as
Americans.
(b) The parents and guardians ofpublic school children should have the right to
decide whether or not their children may hear Christmas music in the classrooms and
assemblies at those schools.
52711. As used in this article, "Christmas music" includes, but is not necessarily
limited to, carols, songs, and instrumental works whose subject matter relates to the
celebration ofthe Christmas holiday or to the season during which that holiday is
observed.


and again, no one is mandated to participate

Except when it gets to the part that you omitted:

52712. (a) Each public elementary and secondary school shall provide
opportunities to its pupils for listening to or performing Christmas music at an
appropriate time of year. The appreciation or performance ofthe Christmas music may
be incorporated into the subject matter of an arts or social studies class, presented for
cultural enrichment during a school assembly, or both.

Which is where is mandates that schools provide resources for specific religious ceremonies.

Though other people are not in fact required to participate, the taxpayers of said school district would be required to pay for the resources necessary to allow for the religious ceremonies.

Providing funding for a specific religion through a congressional mandate is specifically unconstitutional as per the first amendment.

Do you think teachers and support personnel work for free? Do you think kids will just be able to sing christmas carols privately in a public school with no oversight?

If you want your children to have religon with their education, there are a host of private religious schools that you can send them to.