A single move that could have changed WWII
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progressive hunter
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what I get from history both public education and after is that we knew something was going to happen and pretty much knew where,, but the powers that be wanted to let it happen so it would give justification from a large response for what reason that has yet to be really known for sure,,
kinda like 911 where they also knew something would happen from people under direct surveillance,,
again for reasons we can only speculate,,
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Agree with your points. I just find this particular story fascinating because we had some hard evidence that was apparently doctored by Hoover at the FBI. Not sure if this information had made to Donovan unfiltered if it would have made much difference but it might have.
Manonthestreet
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9/11 was very different as it, supposedly wasn't State sponsored. As for Japan if we knew, that did not preclude an armed ambush with better dispersal of at least air assets which would mitigate damage to the fleet.
How was the evidence "doctored?" (I didn't watch the video.) From my research, the Navy was expecting an attack in the Western Pacific, but considered Pearl Harbor to be too far away to be a likely target. That does not mean that the split Army/Navy defense of the island were in any way an adequate protection plan.
progressive hunter
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who sponsored it doesnt matter,, both had the same outcome,,
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This agent was told by Berlin to get information for Japan about Pearl Harbor, the air fields, depth of the water, ships stationed there. According to this video this information went to Hoover who because Hoover did not trust this agent and a bitter rivalry with Donovan altered or doctored the original information watered it down or whatever term you care to use.
Manonthestreet
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Its the foreknowledge I was speaking about
progressive hunter
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I was too,,
thats why who sponsored it doesnt matter,,
what does matter is our people knew something would happen and chose to let it happen for reasons we dont know,,
CrusaderFrank
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In October, FDR had drafted “December 7th (or 14th) a day… etc. I’m kidding but we knew the attack was coming
whitehall
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The Brits were shocked that there was no national intelligence but a hodge podge of competing service intelligence units. Donovan was a clueless amateur. The Supreme Court finally settled the issue by decreeing that the FBI would be the lead intelligence and anti-espionage agency despite the fact that Hoover's G men had little experience in either field. FDR was desperate to get the U.S. into the "real" war in Europe when Americans seemed reluctant to engage in a foreign war. Pearl Harbor was the convenient catalyst.
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- #12
No question the US was real green when it came to intelligence at that time period. This was new to the FBI no question. I don't believe Donovan was quite as bad as you indicate, but he was behind the Brits and others.
whitehall
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The Court had a shot at creating a national intelligence agency but they didn't trust Donovan either. Another issue is FDR's choice for COS. General George Marshall couldn't have been the best choice for pre-war COS above more qualified generals. Marshall was credited with a near photographic memory but for some reason he couldn't recall where he was on the eve of the "Day of Infamy". He was uncharacteristically uncommon for him to be late for work when his staff was desperate to locate him when Magic decoded the final Japanese message. According to records Marshall read and reread and re-reread the message while time was ticking and the Japanese were in the air. Apparently the interagency message center went out and Marshall sent a telegram that arrived about the same time as the Japanese bombers.
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Your link isn't convincing per it's title claim.
Warfare, especially World War Two WW2 is filled with plans and studies of potential future targets and factors to consider for attacks that often didn't come to actual occurrence.
Military commanders often want a variety of options to consider before selecting "The One" and the eventual attack at Pearl Harbor serves as an example of such.
To those on the USA side, this would appear to be one of many schemes that "MIGHT HAPPEN", but USA strategic thinking of the time considered others as more probable, especially in the Western Pacific/Eastern Asia, so an attack at Pearl Harbor was placed lower down on the list of serious concerns to prepare for.
Also, had the USA wanted an episode to "justify" getting a more active role in the War, events in the Atlantic earlier would have also served that purpose.
...
At the beginning of World War II in Europe in September 1939, Reuben James was assigned to the Neutrality Patrol, which guarded the Atlantic and the Caribbean approaches to the American coast. In March 1941, she joined the force established to escort convoys sailing to Great Britain. ...
...
Sinking
At dawn on 31 October 1941, she was torpedoed near Iceland by German submarine U-552 commanded by Kapitänleutnant Erich Topp. Reuben James had positioned herself between an ammunition ship in the convoy and the known position of a German "wolfpack," a group of submarines poised to attack the convoy. The destroyer was not flying the ensign of the United States and was in the process of dropping depth charges on another U-boat when she was engaged. Reuben James was hit forward by a torpedo meant for a merchant ship and her entire bow was blown off when a magazine exploded. The bow sank immediately. The aft section floated for five minutes before going down. Of a crew of seven officers and 136 enlisted men, plus one enlisted passenger, 100 were killed. Only 44 enlisted men and no officers survived....
USS Reuben James (DD-245) - Wikipedia
There was also an earlier but less lethal incident;
USS Greer (DD–145) was a Wickes-class destroyer in the United States Navy, the first ship named for Rear Admiral James A. Greer (1833–1904). In what became known as the "Greer incident," she became the first US Navy ship to fire on a German ship, three months before the United States officially entered World War II. The incident led President Franklin D. Roosevelt to issue what became known as his "shoot-on-sight" order. Roosevelt publicly confirmed the "shoot on sight" order on 11 September 1941, effectively declaring naval war against Germany and Italy in the Battle of the Atlantic.
...
The "Greer incident" occurred on 4 September. By all accounts, a German submarine (later identified as U-652) fired upon Greer, but made no contact. When news of the encounter reached the United States, public concern ran high. Initial reports reported that a British aircraft aided in repelling the attack.
In response, Germany claimed "that the attack had not been initiated by the German submarine; on the contrary, ... the submarine had been attacked with depth bombs, pursued continuously in the German blockade zone, and assailed by depth bombs until midnight." The communique implied that the US destroyer had dropped the first depth bombs. Germany accused President Roosevelt of "endeavoring with all the means at his disposal to provoke incidents for the purpose of baiting the American people into the war."
The United States Department of the Navy replied that the German claims were inaccurate and that "the initial attack in the engagement was made by the submarine on the Greer."<a href="USS Greer - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>5<span>]</span></a> Roosevelt made the Greer incident the principal focus of one of his famed "fireside chats", where he explained a new order he issued as commander-in-chief that escalated America nearer to outright involvement in the European war. In Roosevelt's words: ...
...
USS Greer - Wikipedia
~~~~~~~
I've about a dozen more posts to make relevant to this topic, but must break away for some chores, etc. the wife wants to do, back later .....
Bear in mind also that at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack the USA was already ramping up* to get into this war, which was looking inevitable.
At the time that Hitler attacked/invaded Poland, about two weeks into that assault through Western Poland, the Soviet Union suddenly (almost no one in the West~ England, France, USA foresaw this) attacked on the Eastern side and Germany and Russia split Poland between them.
USSR/Russia then went on to attack and conquer the Baltic Nations; Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania along with start a war with Finland. Also made threatening moves in the SouthWest towards the Balkan nations.
By the start of 1940 it looked like the two nations with the two largest militarizes on the planet were in a process of conquering and carving up the wold between them. Germany than went on to attack and conquer Norway, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France and threatened to invade England. Italy had joined in with attacks on France and from Libya into Egypt and towards the Suez, along with in East Africa.
On the other side of the world, Japan and Russia had a number of wars/conflicts during the 1930s;
The Soviet–Japanese border conflicts were a series of minor and major conflicts fought between the Soviet Union (led by Joseph Stalin), Mongolia (led by Khorloogiin Choibalsan) and Japan (led by Hirohito) in Northeast Asia from 1932 to 1939.
en.wikipedia.org
Along with Japan's ongoing war with China.
When France fell and surrendered to Germany, not long after that Japan invaded and took over Vichy French IndoChina.
Germany's air attacks on England in late Summer 1940, as well as battles against shipping in the Atlantic supplying the U.K. made clear the writing on the wall that the World was moving towards global spanning war(s).
* While the likely future was clear to FDR and some in leadership in the USA, others thought the USA could remain neutral throughout. FDR and admin realized that the USA was undersized in military strength compared to the Axis belligerents. Hence a re-institute of the draft and contracts for increased combat aircraft productions. England's isolation by the later half of 1940 encouraged what would be the Lend-Lease Program, which indirectly funded the military and production ramp-up.
The USA was already on the path towards being "The Arsenal of Democracy" by the start of 1940 and France along with England were the initial customers seeking to purchase weapons from the USA. China would also become a growing receiver of Lend-Lease; which by early 1941 included the seeding of what would become the American Volunteer Group(AVG) ~ Flying Tigers of about 100 fighter planes and their pilots and ground crews to be sent to China to assist resisting the Japanese assaults.
Germany's attack on the USSR/Russia in June 1941 put another sudden and unexpected twist in the growing global war, and also made Russia another recipient of Lend-Lease.
By Autumn of 1941 the World at War had grown substantially from what it looked to be two years earlier in September 1939 when started with Germany's attack on Poland.
At the time that Hitler attacked/invaded Poland, about two weeks into that assault through Western Poland, the Soviet Union suddenly (almost no one in the West~ England, France, USA foresaw this) attacked on the Eastern side and Germany and Russia split Poland between them.
USSR/Russia then went on to attack and conquer the Baltic Nations; Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania along with start a war with Finland. Also made threatening moves in the SouthWest towards the Balkan nations.
By the start of 1940 it looked like the two nations with the two largest militarizes on the planet were in a process of conquering and carving up the wold between them. Germany than went on to attack and conquer Norway, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France and threatened to invade England. Italy had joined in with attacks on France and from Libya into Egypt and towards the Suez, along with in East Africa.
On the other side of the world, Japan and Russia had a number of wars/conflicts during the 1930s;
The Soviet–Japanese border conflicts were a series of minor and major conflicts fought between the Soviet Union (led by Joseph Stalin), Mongolia (led by Khorloogiin Choibalsan) and Japan (led by Hirohito) in Northeast Asia from 1932 to 1939.
Soviet–Japanese border conflicts - Wikipedia
Along with Japan's ongoing war with China.
When France fell and surrendered to Germany, not long after that Japan invaded and took over Vichy French IndoChina.
Germany's air attacks on England in late Summer 1940, as well as battles against shipping in the Atlantic supplying the U.K. made clear the writing on the wall that the World was moving towards global spanning war(s).
* While the likely future was clear to FDR and some in leadership in the USA, others thought the USA could remain neutral throughout. FDR and admin realized that the USA was undersized in military strength compared to the Axis belligerents. Hence a re-institute of the draft and contracts for increased combat aircraft productions. England's isolation by the later half of 1940 encouraged what would be the Lend-Lease Program, which indirectly funded the military and production ramp-up.
The USA was already on the path towards being "The Arsenal of Democracy" by the start of 1940 and France along with England were the initial customers seeking to purchase weapons from the USA. China would also become a growing receiver of Lend-Lease; which by early 1941 included the seeding of what would become the American Volunteer Group(AVG) ~ Flying Tigers of about 100 fighter planes and their pilots and ground crews to be sent to China to assist resisting the Japanese assaults.
Germany's attack on the USSR/Russia in June 1941 put another sudden and unexpected twist in the growing global war, and also made Russia another recipient of Lend-Lease.
By Autumn of 1941 the World at War had grown substantially from what it looked to be two years earlier in September 1939 when started with Germany's attack on Poland.
Knowing that something MIGHT happen, and knowing where it MIGHT happen are only part of the puzzle. Most Key is knowing if it really* WILL happen, and most especially WHEN.
Tomorrow ?
Next week ?
Next month ?
Next year ?
*In the espionage world; false leads, mis-information, and mis-direction are a constant problem to deal with.
In the limited USA Intel "community" of the time, it wasn't expected that Japan would act with such aggression as soon as it did, nor that attacking Pearl Harbor would be a key part of the plans. Especially when diplomats from Japan were in DC negotiating a deal to reduce tensions in the Pacific.
progressive hunter
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doesnt mean you dont prepare,,
How do you think they didn't ?
It would seem they were as prepared as could be ...
... they weren't on Alert aka "Battle Stations" (Ready to aim and shoot)
progressive hunter
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total loss at pearl harbor,,
Admiral Rockwell Tory
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Actually, it was not. It could have been much worse.
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