A Question for Pro-Choice Christians

[C_Clayton_Jones]

when outside the womb breathing and eating on its own, you can call it a living human.

when you learn some high school level biology you will find out it is both alive and human......until then you are allowed to be ignorant........

When you learn settled and accepted facts of Constitutional law, you'll find out that an embryo/fetus is not a 'person' entitled to 5th and 14th Amendment protections, where the protected liberty of the woman is paramount...until then you are allowed to be ignorant.

 

[PostmodernProph]

How are you able to reconcile the legitimacy of elective abortion with the conception and birth of Jesus? Should Mary have had the right to terminate her pregnancy? How about Elizabeth, within whom John the Baptist stirred when she met Mary? Would terminating that pregnancy also have been all right with you?

I would appreciate an explanation of this seeming contradiction of viewpoints.

I'm a pro choice Presbyterian .

how sad......

 

[toxicmedia]

How are you able to reconcile the legitimacy of elective abortion with the conception and birth of Jesus? Should Mary have had the right to terminate her pregnancy? How about Elizabeth, within whom John the Baptist stirred when she met Mary? Would terminating that pregnancy also have been all right with you?

I would appreciate an explanation of this seeming contradiction of viewpoints.

I'm a pro choice Presbyterian .

how sad......

What does it matter if the divine birth happened to a guy down the street from Jesus?

This was divine intervention, and God would not have been stopped in putting his son where he needed him. Mortal men performing abortions is NOTHING next to the power of God.

 

[PostmodernProph]

when outside the womb breathing and eating on its own, you can call it a living human.

when you learn some high school level biology you will find out it is both alive and human......until then you are allowed to be ignorant........

When you learn settled and accepted facts of Constitutional law, you'll find out that an embryo/fetus is not a 'person' entitled to 5th and 14th Amendment protections, where the protected liberty of the woman is paramount...until then you are allowed to be ignorant.

I'm sorry....the fact that the law denies the unborn their constitutional rights does not change biology......living is not defined by the constitution but by science.......human is determined by DNA not by the Bill of Rights......dumbfuck

 

[PostmodernProph]

How are you able to reconcile the legitimacy of elective abortion with the conception and birth of Jesus? Should Mary have had the right to terminate her pregnancy? How about Elizabeth, within whom John the Baptist stirred when she met Mary? Would terminating that pregnancy also have been all right with you?

I would appreciate an explanation of this seeming contradiction of viewpoints.

I'm a pro choice Presbyterian .

how sad......

What does it matter if the divine birth happened to a guy down the street from Jesus?

This was divine intervention, and God would not have been stopped in putting his son where he needed him. Mortal men performing abortions is NOTHING next to the power of God.

you misunderstand....its sad that God sacrificed himself for your sins and your response is to kill children......I just think it really sucks that you pretend to yourself that its all right......

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Pro choice Christian is sort of an oxymoron

Nonsense.

Christians can respect the Constitution, its case law, and the rule of law while at the same time opposing abortion – in fact, millions of American Christians do exactly that; and they're just as devout and proper in their faith as Christians who seek to 'ban' abortion in violation of a woman's right to privacy.

Indeed, the genius of privacy rights jurisprudence allows each American – including Christians – to decide the matter for themselves of their own free will, in good conscience and in good faith, absent unwarranted interference from the state.

 

[SassyIrishLass]

Pro choice Christian is sort of an oxymoron

Nonsense.

Christians can respect the Constitution, its case law, and the rule of law while at the same time opposing abortion – in fact, millions of American Christians do exactly that; and they're just as devout and proper in their faith as Christians who seek to 'ban' abortion in violation of a woman's right to privacy.

Indeed, the genius of privacy rights jurisprudence allows each American – including Christians – to decide the matter for themselves of their own free will, in good conscience and in good faith, absent unwarranted interference from the state.

Christians don't support the murder of the most innocent of all.

 

[koshergrl]

He was killed not because he actually committed heresy...he didn't....but because the people BELIEVED he was the Messiah.

you have that upside down......they believed he was NOT the Messiah

No, the people believed he was the Messiah.

not the ones that wanted him killed.......

When I say "the people" I'm not referring to the freaking Pharisees. Stop being a bore.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

when outside the womb breathing and eating on its own, you can call it a living human.

when you learn some high school level biology you will find out it is both alive and human......until then you are allowed to be ignorant........

When you learn settled and accepted facts of Constitutional law, you'll find out that an embryo/fetus is not a 'person' entitled to 5th and 14th Amendment protections, where the protected liberty of the woman is paramount...until then you are allowed to be ignorant.

I'm sorry....the fact that the law denies the unborn their constitutional rights does not change biology......living is not defined by the constitution but by science.......human is determined by DNA not by the Bill of Rights......dumbfuck

Yes, you are sorry.

But fortunately we live in a Constitutional Republic, whose citizens are subject solely to the rule of law, not men – as men are incapable of ruling justly; those who seek to 'ban' abortion in violation of the Constitution and the right to privacy is evidence of that.

The only question you need to consider is, as an opponent of abortion, what is your plan to end the practice that comports with the Constitution and its case law.

 

[koshergrl]

Pro choice Christian is sort of an oxymoron

Nonsense.

Christians can respect the Constitution, its case law, and the rule of law while at the same time opposing abortion – in fact, millions of American Christians do exactly that; and they're just as devout and proper in their faith as Christians who seek to 'ban' abortion in violation of a woman's right to privacy.

Indeed, the genius of privacy rights jurisprudence allows each American – including Christians – to decide the matter for themselves of their own free will, in good conscience and in good faith, absent unwarranted interference from the state.

Christians don't support the murder of the most innocent of all.

Nor do they support flesh peddling, human trafficking, prostitution, rape, incest, child sexual assault or extramarital sex.

All things that are protected by the corporation that is PP, and the progressives that defend it's commission of crimes against humanity, in the name of "choice".

Incidentally, Muslim atrocities against children and women are likewise turned a blind eye to, because it's their *choice* to do those things, and a part of their precious *culture*.

 

[toxicmedia]

How are you able to reconcile the legitimacy of elective abortion with the conception and birth of Jesus? Should Mary have had the right to terminate her pregnancy? How about Elizabeth, within whom John the Baptist stirred when she met Mary? Would terminating that pregnancy also have been all right with you?

I would appreciate an explanation of this seeming contradiction of viewpoints.

I'm a pro choice Presbyterian .

how sad......

What does it matter if the divine birth happened to a guy down the street from Jesus?

This was divine intervention, and God would not have been stopped in putting his son where he needed him. Mortal men performing abortions is NOTHING next to the power of God.

you misunderstand....its sad that God sacrificed himself for your sins and your response is to kill children......I just think it really sucks that you pretend to yourself that its all right......

But it is alright.

Your question was a meant to get someone to think we would have never had a savior on Earth if abortions were done on Jesus and John. Possibly even hoping the resulting reflection might change some minds?

Pretty much a gotcha question, as evidenced by you lashing out at me and calling me a child killer.

I mean no offense to you, because you seem like a nice person, and I'm sorry if what I say is shocking.

One can be pro choice and aligned with God's will, all at the same time. Most scripture used to spport the pro life position requires the employment of gross generalizations to string the support together for them.

So you leave me no choice but to use the language you tried to guilt me with, to make my point, which is... I am all for the killing of first and second trimester babies upon demand by the Mother, because the fetus has no cerebral cortex yet. And I'm still a happy Christian, and the people at my church know how I feel, and none of them have told me I'll go to hell for thinking it/

 

[BluePhantom]

Rational capacity in striking a woman? Unless he was having seizure and stuck her accidentally or was bi-polar and not in control of his own behavior, there is not rational excuse for striking a woman.

So you mean when my ex-girlfriend attacked me with a 12" chef's knife and tried to aggressively stick it into my chest I should't have smacked her?

Did you do something to deserve it?



Disarm her, restrain her, lock yourself in another room (or her), call police, exit the location.......... There are choices.

There is a difference between self defense and abuse or just striking another person.

You can go to jail for striking a person, even in self defense or defense of another.

Oh bullshit. I didn't do shit to deserve it. She was just an unstable woman. You know women can be criminals too. In many states it's perfectly legal to kill someone who breaks into your house. So if a woman breaks into my house and I shoot her that's perfectly fine...as long as I don't punch her. Pfft. Ridiculous. If a person is trying to kill me or do serious bodily harm to me I am going to defend myself with all the force at my disposal to render that threat inert whether that threat comes from a man or a woman. You can stand there and get killed if you want, but not me.

I have a female friend who is a third degree black belt in Krav Maga. If she attacks you (which she has been known to do to people who piss her off) and you don't fight her like a man you are in for a very bad situation. I had to go bail her out of jail one night after she put her boyfriend (who was a United States Marine) through a wall and broke multiple bones in his body.

See here's the deal. When people say there is NEVER a reason to hit a woman, they are thinking about this woman:

They are not thinking about this woman:

The former you don't hit. The latter...yeah she's going to get knuckles in her mouth before that knife gets anywhere near me. Sorry, man. Been there and done that. You can stand there and die if you want to avoid hitting a woman....I'm taking the ***** out.

 

[BluePhantom]

when outside the womb breathing and eating on its own, you can call it a living human.

when you learn some high school level biology you will find out it is both alive and human......until then you are allowed to be ignorant........

When you learn settled and accepted facts of Constitutional law, you'll find out that an embryo/fetus is not a 'person' entitled to 5th and 14th Amendment protections, where the protected liberty of the woman is paramount...until then you are allowed to be ignorant.

I see you avoided my question yet again. You don't have an answer is the reason why. If a fetus is not a human life legally, why do you get charged with two counts of murder for killing a pregnant woman?

Answer the damn question...or at least have the balls to say "I don't have an answer to that"

 

[toxicmedia]

when outside the womb breathing and eating on its own, you can call it a living human.

when you learn some high school level biology you will find out it is both alive and human......until then you are allowed to be ignorant........

When you learn settled and accepted facts of Constitutional law, you'll find out that an embryo/fetus is not a 'person' entitled to 5th and 14th Amendment protections, where the protected liberty of the woman is paramount...until then you are allowed to be ignorant.

I see you avoided my question yet again. You don't have an answer is the reason why. If a fetus is not a human life legally, why do you get charged with two counts of murder for killing a pregnant woman?

Answer the damn question...or at least have the balls to say "I don't have an answer to that"

Sorry for butting in...but I know the answer to this one.

Of course it's often lost on those who reject the concept of "pro choice"

The way it is now, which is the way I, and many others, want it.......

It's up to the mother to abort a fetus before it has a cerebral cortex, and therefore incapable of comprehension, feelings, memories, or sensations...if she choses not to do that, that little sucker is money in the bank!

Personhood should only be legally granted by the mother during the first and second trimesters. And that should be enforced by law.....which it is, thank God

 

[talksalot]

It does seem to be a contradiction huh? The first thing to realize is that being "pro-choice" does not mean one thinks abortion is the right thing to do.

obviously it means they think at least a person who wants to ought to do it.....not a good starting point.....

It I about woman controlling their own body and deciding what is best for them. It is about options and freedom. It is about empowerment instead of slavery. It is about physical and mental health. It is about a woman/girl being grown enough to carry and birth a child. It is about not being tied to a rapist for life.

no.....its about killing a living human being......that can never be a good thing......

CClaytonJones:
To oppose 'banning' abortion does not mean one 'supports' the practice.
Yes, it does. Anyone, especially someone who claims to be a Christian, who is not actively opposing abortion is supporting abortion. Millions of innocent lives have been snuffed out since Roe v. Wade was unconstitutionally made "law of the land" by the SCOTUS.
Your blather about about "privacy" and the Constitution giving someone the "right" to kill their unborn child is about as far from the will of God and the example of Christ as one can get.

No, it doesn't.

Again, it's perfectly appropriate and consistent to oppose abortion as a matter of subjective personal opinion or subjective religious belief while also respecting a woman's right to privacy, respecting the Constitution and its case law, and acknowledging the fact that the state has no authority to compel a woman to give birth against her will.

Subjective, personal religious beliefs and facts of law are two completely separate issues, one having nothing to do with the other – attempting to conflate the two fails as a false comparison fallacy.

You already said that.
I don't "believe" that abortion ends the life of a living, developing human being; it's a fact.
SCOTUS does not have the constitutional authority to make killing human beings in the womb into law...that too is not a "belief" but a fact.
Who compelled women to give birth before Roe v. Wade? Before SCOTUS involved itself in the process it was correctly assumed that, barring miscarriage, birth always followed pregnancy.
Since abortion on demand, 57,762,169 innocent lives have been snuffed out.....killed; chopped into pieces while alive and then sucked out of the womb. Late-term abortions are even more gruesome and the survivors of botched abortions, left to slowly die should evoke some reaction other than "I don't support abortion but I'm opposed to banning abortion...."

 

[BluePhantom]

when outside the womb breathing and eating on its own, you can call it a living human.

when you learn some high school level biology you will find out it is both alive and human......until then you are allowed to be ignorant........

When you learn settled and accepted facts of Constitutional law, you'll find out that an embryo/fetus is not a 'person' entitled to 5th and 14th Amendment protections, where the protected liberty of the woman is paramount...until then you are allowed to be ignorant.

I see you avoided my question yet again. You don't have an answer is the reason why. If a fetus is not a human life legally, why do you get charged with two counts of murder for killing a pregnant woman?

Answer the damn question...or at least have the balls to say "I don't have an answer to that"

Sorry for butting in...but I know the answer to this one.

Of course it's often lost on those who reject the concept of "pro choice"

The way it is now, which is the way I, and many others, want it.......

It's up to the mother to abort a fetus before it has a cerebral cortex, and therefore incapable of comprehension, feelings, memories, or sensations...if she choses not to do that, that little sucker is money in the bank!

Personhood should only be legally granted by the mother during the first and second trimesters. And that should be enforced by law.....which it is, thank God

Are you saying that if a person kills a woman who is pregnant before the fetus has developed a cerebral cortex there would not be a double murder charge?

 

[koshergrl]

How are you able to reconcile the legitimacy of elective abortion with the conception and birth of Jesus? Should Mary have had the right to terminate her pregnancy? How about Elizabeth, within whom John the Baptist stirred when she met Mary? Would terminating that pregnancy also have been all right with you?

I would appreciate an explanation of this seeming contradiction of viewpoints.

I'm a pro choice Presbyterian .

how sad......

What does it matter if the divine birth happened to a guy down the street from Jesus?

This was divine intervention, and God would not have been stopped in putting his son where he needed him. Mortal men performing abortions is NOTHING next to the power of God.

you misunderstand....its sad that God sacrificed himself for your sins and your response is to kill children......I just think it really sucks that you pretend to yourself that its all right......

what I say is shocking.

One can be pro choice and aligned with God's will, all at the same time. Most scripture used to spport the pro life position requires the employment of gross generalizations to string the support together for them.

No, one cannot. And it doesn't matter what your church people think about whether or not it's okay to be pro abortion. The only thing that matters as far as your salvation goes is what God thinks about it.

And God does not support elective abortion, the sex trade, or the horrific abuses that take place in PP clinics under the auspice of "choice".

 

[aris2chat]

when outside the womb breathing and eating on its own, you can call it a living human.

when you learn some high school level biology you will find out it is both alive and human......until then you are allowed to be ignorant........

When you learn settled and accepted facts of Constitutional law, you'll find out that an embryo/fetus is not a 'person' entitled to 5th and 14th Amendment protections, where the protected liberty of the woman is paramount...until then you are allowed to be ignorant.

I see you avoided my question yet again. You don't have an answer is the reason why. If a fetus is not a human life legally, why do you get charged with two counts of murder for killing a pregnant woman?

Answer the damn question...or at least have the balls to say "I don't have an answer to that"

Sorry for butting in...but I know the answer to this one.

Of course it's often lost on those who reject the concept of "pro choice"

The way it is now, which is the way I, and many others, want it.......

It's up to the mother to abort a fetus before it has a cerebral cortex, and therefore incapable of comprehension, feelings, memories, or sensations...if she choses not to do that, that little sucker is money in the bank!

Personhood should only be legally granted by the mother during the first and second trimesters. And that should be enforced by law.....which it is, thank God

Are you saying that if a person kills a woman who is pregnant before the fetus has developed a cerebral cortex there would not be a double murder charge?

There is not now till after the third month

 

[aris2chat]

when outside the womb breathing and eating on its own, you can call it a living human.

when you learn some high school level biology you will find out it is both alive and human......until then you are allowed to be ignorant........

When you learn settled and accepted facts of Constitutional law, you'll find out that an embryo/fetus is not a 'person' entitled to 5th and 14th Amendment protections, where the protected liberty of the woman is paramount...until then you are allowed to be ignorant.

I see you avoided my question yet again. You don't have an answer is the reason why. If a fetus is not a human life legally, why do you get charged with two counts of murder for killing a pregnant woman?

Answer the damn question...or at least have the balls to say "I don't have an answer to that"

You don't till after the third month or some places the 20th week.

 

[talksalot]

Aris2chat:
Rational capacity in striking a woman? Unless he was having seizure and stuck her accidentally or was bi-polar and not in control of his own behavior, there is not rational excuse for striking a woman. Till the child is a month old it is not a crime if the child dies in the bible. Till the second trimester it does not even have a soul.
First of all, the Bible says two men are fighting and a pregnant woman is injured accidentally. Second, the Bible does not state when the soul enters the body.
Herbs for brews like bitter water have been used for thousands of years. There are a number of simple, and some rather nasty, ways of prevent a pregnancy. These would have been common knowledge among those with animals from sheep to horses.
Where in the Bible does a sheep or horse get an herbal contraceptive or abortion? It's not in there; let alone herbal contraceptives or abortions for women.
It was not just the ancients but even a pope wrote on ways to prevent and terminate pregnancy. Like celibacy, these things were not frowned on or banned till later on.
The Bible wasn't written by a pope, nor does it describe the life of a pope. Celibacy....?
The bible tells of so many human frailties and yet god still loved the people. God loves, chastises, punishes and forgives. The bible is not just about good, perfect images but very human and real people. Brothers that kill, brothers that cheat, lie and steal, men who love men, women that love women, adultery, assassinations, massacres, lust, rape, abuse. People that despite their flaws can still be leaders and heroes.
human beings
Stick with the subject we're discussing: Does the Bible advocate abortion on demand? You haven't given a single example stating that it does.
Try reading the bible like literature instead of a religious text that some believe is the word of god. Read it as a story of all mankind. Put yourself in the place of the characters, consider the times and cultures back then. Our world has changed but more of the desires, fears, hates, fault, jealousies of those people still exist today.
No. The Bible describes the sins of mankind and the relationship between God and humans. It's meant to be a guide for living, not a storybook. Human beings are much better informed today but just as prone to heartlessness as they ever were. That's why we have abortion on demand.
Some of the stories might have been left out, but Jesus even killed and lied, he laid with a naked boy, he had a lover/wife, he manipulated those closest to him, he sacrificed himself in a way many would call suicide by cop today. He broke the commandment he did not follow the "letter" of the torah. Even his mother became pregnant out of wedlock.
You're out in History Channel land now. None of that is Biblical; it's crazy. Your comment about the mother of God; blasphemous.
So why do so many christian think they know and understand the bible if they reject others and are filled with hate. Why do they think they have the right to judge, to punish, to abuse, incite other again and even libel? They are not god.
Why are so many casting stones when they too have sinned? Just because some priest forgive them does not mean they have not sinned. They don't have the right to judge or condemn others.
Christians who are interested in serving God want to end abortion on demand because it's the slaughter of innocent life. All have sinned, but most have not broken the sixth Commandment by murdering their unborn child. Not only are women killing their own children but they're being lied to by non-Christians and even by Christians who tell them murder is a "reproductive right."
The bible tells us with every word that we have the right to choose.
It absolutely does not. Your attempts to prove that it does are so weak that I feel I've wasted my time by responding to you.