A Necessity, NOT A Luxury

[boedicca]

Capitalism at it's best...

Hardly, These prices are not driven by Capitalism. Health care is one of the most heavily regulated and crony driven aspects of the economy.

 

[Jackinthebox]

No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.

But mandating a living wage would solve it. That would knock out almost all socialism in fact.

 

[dblack]

No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.

But mandating a living wage would solve it. That would knock out almost all socialism in fact.

Sadly, it wouldn't. That's simply another delusional tail-chasing exercise that will drive us deeper yet.

 

[Jackinthebox]

No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.

But mandating a living wage would solve it. That would knock out almost all socialism in fact.

Sadly, it wouldn't. That's simply another delusional tail-chasing exercise that will drive us deeper yet.

Well, like you said, no since going down that road again here.

 

[Sonny Clark]

What's wrong with this option?:

My heart is failing which means it's time for me to die. Why has it become imperative that I be kept alive at all costs? Is it fair for me to burden my family with giant medical costs just so I can add a few more years of life which would likely be a low quality of life?

If that were the decision, we'd be more rational about it. But it's not. The decision is whether or not to it's fair to burden some faceless, socialized, health-care cost sharing scheme. Faced with that kind of decision, there's every incentive to go for broke.

Meaning what exactly? Please explain. Thanks.

Meaning: stop trying to control how other people take care of their health. Meaning: stop using government to tell people what kind of health care they're allowed to seek. Stop trying to tell people how they can pay for their health care.

People aren't, generally, stupid. We can take care of ourselves without resorting to coercive state mandates.

I understand what you're saying here. But, still, the problem is one of rising cost, and individuals need some form of assistance in order to get the necessary treatment they need when it comes to proper health care. Regardless of whether we have choices or not, regardless of whether those choices include government requirements, and regardless of insurance or lack of insurance, we still need help paying for proper health care. It's not a choice of paying or allowing others to subsidize it, we all need some form of help paying for health care.

Again, I have to ask you to check the sanity of such a statement. If we all need help, who's doing the "helping"?

There's a lot of sanity in the statement. It's factual and a truism. The help is coming from taxpayers, charities, trust funds, family members, and from debt forgiveness. Examples: Medicare, Medicaid, trust funds such as St. Jude's Children Hospital, and in some cases, debt forgiveness which turns into tax write-offs. Just common sense and simple logic.

No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.

FYI - The average person can NOT afford basic health care. I just had an MRI that cost over $4,000. My prescriptions would cost a lot of money each month without insurance covering 95% of the cost. Can you imagine what the expense it would be for a family of four just to have an annual check-up? Do you realize what lab work cost? Do you know what an average doctor visit cost? The average person is doing well just to pay mortgage ( rent ), food, transportation, utilities, clothing, and insurance on their home and auto. Most people do not have a nest egg to draw from. People aren't making the money they use to make. The cost of living has gone up. Employers are paying less benefits for employees. A lot of college kids have enormous student loan debt. Seniors have lost equity in their homes, and some have lost part of their pensions due to mismanagement of the funds by unions and cities. We are not a wealthy citizenry. We are not a self-supporting people, nor a self-supporting nation. Proper health care is an enormous cost. At some point, almost everyone needs some form of assistance. Again, common sense and simple logic.

 

[Jackinthebox]

What's wrong with this option?:

My heart is failing which means it's time for me to die. Why has it become imperative that I be kept alive at all costs? Is it fair for me to burden my family with giant medical costs just so I can add a few more years of life which would likely be a low quality of life?

If that were the decision, we'd be more rational about it. But it's not. The decision is whether or not to it's fair to burden some faceless, socialized, health-care cost sharing scheme. Faced with that kind of decision, there's every incentive to go for broke.

Meaning: stop trying to control how other people take care of their health. Meaning: stop using government to tell people what kind of health care they're allowed to seek. Stop trying to tell people how they can pay for their health care.

People aren't, generally, stupid. We can take care of ourselves without resorting to coercive state mandates.

I understand what you're saying here. But, still, the problem is one of rising cost, and individuals need some form of assistance in order to get the necessary treatment they need when it comes to proper health care. Regardless of whether we have choices or not, regardless of whether those choices include government requirements, and regardless of insurance or lack of insurance, we still need help paying for proper health care. It's not a choice of paying or allowing others to subsidize it, we all need some form of help paying for health care.

Again, I have to ask you to check the sanity of such a statement. If we all need help, who's doing the "helping"?

There's a lot of sanity in the statement. It's factual and a truism. The help is coming from taxpayers, charities, trust funds, family members, and from debt forgiveness. Examples: Medicare, Medicaid, trust funds such as St. Jude's Children Hospital, and in some cases, debt forgiveness which turns into tax write-offs. Just common sense and simple logic.

No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.

FYI - The average person can NOT afford basic health care. I just had an MRI that cost over $4,000. My prescriptions would cost a lot of money each month without insurance covering 95% of the cost. Can you imagine what the expense it would be for a family of four just to have an annual check-up? Do you realize what lab work cost? Do you know what an average doctor visit cost? The average person is doing well just to pay mortgage ( rent ), food, transportation, utilities, clothing, and insurance on their home and auto. Most people do not have a nest egg to draw from. People aren't making the money they use to make. The cost of living has gone up. Employers are paying less benefits for employees. A lot of college kids have enormous student loan debt. Seniors have lost equity in their homes, and some have lost part of their pensions due to mismanagement of the funds by unions and cities. We are not a wealthy citizenry. We are not a self-supporting people, nor a self-supporting nation. Proper health care is an enormous cost. At some point, almost everyone needs some form of assistance. Again, common sense and simple logic.

This study shows that medical is a VERY large part of basic living expenses.

Analyzing a Practical Minimum Wage Minimum Wage Workers Union of America

Here is the thread on it that I started too.

Analyzing A Practical Minimum Wage US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[MikeK]

[...]

It sounds like she was spending her own money, which hits on the what enables the foolish spending in the first place: the fact is, most of us aren't. We've gone to ridiculous extremes to avoid paying for our own health care and shift the costs on to the rest of society. That removes the crucial incentive to be prudent with personal health care spending.

When families have to make these decisions, when it's presented as a choice between blowing the family savings or squeezing every last minute out of life, people make better decisions. My own father was faced with that dilemma, and chose to accept reality and leave his wife with a decent retirement, rather than live his last few years clinging to life in a hospital bed and leave her with nothing.

Your point is well made and well taken.

I'm 78. According to my genetic profile I am programmed to live about another 8 - 10 years. Whether or not I had Medicare, if I developed a disabling, life-threatening condition (cancer, etc.) I would opt to be hooked up to a morphine intraveinous to enjoy about 24 hours of ecstatic oblivion, then overdosed to die peacefully.

But no such sensible, merciful option is available. If it were, a lot of wasted Medicare money and personal estates could be saved and a lot of unnecessary suffering prevented.

As the National (and world) populations continue to grow euthanasia will at some point become expediently necessary -- which makes perfect sense. When Mother Nature decides it's time to go, and there is no good reason to argue with her, such as a curable condition in a younger subject, it makes sense to go along with Nature and not prolong the inevitable.

 

[Treeshepherd]

HC as we know it is usually not a necessity. By far, the most common doctor visit is to seek treatment for a cold or flu. You don't need an MD for that. Rest, drink diluted orange juice and watch a season of Homeland on TV. Problem solved.

Most pharmaceuticals are not necessary, or they work due to the placebo effect. Drugs and procedures often cause as many problems as they solve. Most people get too much health care. Too many drugs, unnecessary surgery, way too much anti-biotics and downright predatory medicine

 

[Stephanie]

Capitalism at it's best...

What capitalism? The government sets almost ALL the rules of engagement in healthcare. There is almost zero competition in the medical device because of the government, the insurance mandated by the government to providers and the list goes on and on.

But do not let the facts get in the way of a good old socialist yammering of the "workings of capitalism" where there is none.

Government fucked the system up, therefore we need more government!

good grief, people have set their own bones with two sticks if they were out hunting or something. I swear .
A person goes to school for eight to ten years to become a Doctor. but according the op it's a RACKET.

 

[Treeshepherd]

Capitalism at it's best...

What capitalism? The government sets almost ALL the rules of engagement in healthcare. There is almost zero competition in the medical device because of the government, the insurance mandated by the government to providers and the list goes on and on.

But do not let the facts get in the way of a good old socialist yammering of the "workings of capitalism" where there is none.

Government fucked the system up, therefore we need more government!

good grief, people have set their own bones with two sticks if they were out hunting or something. I swear .
A person goes to school for eight to ten years to become a Doctor. but according the op it's a RACKET.

You don't need to go to school for 8 years to stitch up a wound. You simply need good hand-eye coordination, sewing skills and a basic understanding of sterilization. A seamstress with a 2 year junior college degree could do it, for cheap.

For broken bones, there used to be bonesetters. Now, it costs $4,000 to treat a broken arm. Even still, that's cheaper than insurance. I have no insurance. I could probably break an arm every year and save money by opting out of insurance.

Baby boomers grew up with an inflated admiration of doctors, as if their word is infallible. Stats tell us that doctors misdiagnose problems 40% of the time. Misdiagnosis is more common than you think

A million people get a nasty infection from a hospital every year.

The greatest benefit of the modern age is not purple pills and expensive medical machines that go beep. It's the incredible opportunities we now have to educate ourselves about our own health.

 

[Stephanie]

What's wrong with this option?:

My heart is failing which means it's time for me to die. Why has it become imperative that I be kept alive at all costs? Is it fair for me to burden my family with giant medical costs just so I can add a few more years of life which would likely be a low quality of life?

If that were the decision, we'd be more rational about it. But it's not. The decision is whether or not to it's fair to burden some faceless, socialized, health-care cost sharing scheme. Faced with that kind of decision, there's every incentive to go for broke.

Meaning: stop trying to control how other people take care of their health. Meaning: stop using government to tell people what kind of health care they're allowed to seek. Stop trying to tell people how they can pay for their health care.

People aren't, generally, stupid. We can take care of ourselves without resorting to coercive state mandates.

I understand what you're saying here. But, still, the problem is one of rising cost, and individuals need some form of assistance in order to get the necessary treatment they need when it comes to proper health care. Regardless of whether we have choices or not, regardless of whether those choices include government requirements, and regardless of insurance or lack of insurance, we still need help paying for proper health care. It's not a choice of paying or allowing others to subsidize it, we all need some form of help paying for health care.

Again, I have to ask you to check the sanity of such a statement. If we all need help, who's doing the "helping"?

There's a lot of sanity in the statement. It's factual and a truism. The help is coming from taxpayers, charities, trust funds, family members, and from debt forgiveness. Examples: Medicare, Medicaid, trust funds such as St. Jude's Children Hospital, and in some cases, debt forgiveness which turns into tax write-offs. Just common sense and simple logic.

No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.

FYI - The average person can NOT afford basic health care. I just had an MRI that cost over $4,000. My prescriptions would cost a lot of money each month without insurance covering 95% of the cost. Can you imagine what the expense it would be for a family of four just to have an annual check-up? Do you realize what lab work cost? Do you know what an average doctor visit cost? The average person is doing well just to pay mortgage ( rent ), food, transportation, utilities, clothing, and insurance on their home and auto. Most people do not have a nest egg to draw from. People aren't making the money they use to make. The cost of living has gone up. Employers are paying less benefits for employees. A lot of college kids have enormous student loan debt. Seniors have lost equity in their homes, and some have lost part of their pensions due to mismanagement of the funds by unions and cities. We are not a wealthy citizenry. We are not a self-supporting people, nor a self-supporting nation. Proper health care is an enormous cost. At some point, almost everyone needs some form of assistance. Again, common sense and simple logic.

that's BS. There is thing called, making payments. You can do that with your health care the same as buying a car. Many people still do it and don't want you SPEAKING for them or sticking your nose in their business

 

[Sonny Clark]

What's wrong with this option?:

My heart is failing which means it's time for me to die. Why has it become imperative that I be kept alive at all costs? Is it fair for me to burden my family with giant medical costs just so I can add a few more years of life which would likely be a low quality of life?

If that were the decision, we'd be more rational about it. But it's not. The decision is whether or not to it's fair to burden some faceless, socialized, health-care cost sharing scheme. Faced with that kind of decision, there's every incentive to go for broke.

I understand what you're saying here. But, still, the problem is one of rising cost, and individuals need some form of assistance in order to get the necessary treatment they need when it comes to proper health care. Regardless of whether we have choices or not, regardless of whether those choices include government requirements, and regardless of insurance or lack of insurance, we still need help paying for proper health care. It's not a choice of paying or allowing others to subsidize it, we all need some form of help paying for health care.

Again, I have to ask you to check the sanity of such a statement. If we all need help, who's doing the "helping"?

There's a lot of sanity in the statement. It's factual and a truism. The help is coming from taxpayers, charities, trust funds, family members, and from debt forgiveness. Examples: Medicare, Medicaid, trust funds such as St. Jude's Children Hospital, and in some cases, debt forgiveness which turns into tax write-offs. Just common sense and simple logic.

No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.

FYI - The average person can NOT afford basic health care. I just had an MRI that cost over $4,000. My prescriptions would cost a lot of money each month without insurance covering 95% of the cost. Can you imagine what the expense it would be for a family of four just to have an annual check-up? Do you realize what lab work cost? Do you know what an average doctor visit cost? The average person is doing well just to pay mortgage ( rent ), food, transportation, utilities, clothing, and insurance on their home and auto. Most people do not have a nest egg to draw from. People aren't making the money they use to make. The cost of living has gone up. Employers are paying less benefits for employees. A lot of college kids have enormous student loan debt. Seniors have lost equity in their homes, and some have lost part of their pensions due to mismanagement of the funds by unions and cities. We are not a wealthy citizenry. We are not a self-supporting people, nor a self-supporting nation. Proper health care is an enormous cost. At some point, almost everyone needs some form of assistance. Again, common sense and simple logic.

that's BS. There is thing called, making payments. You can do that with your health care the same as buying a car. Many people still do it and don't want you SPEAKING for them or sticking your nose in their business

Yes, some people can make payments, and do. And, some people can't make payments, and don't. Just curious here, what do you think a monthly payment would be for an operation and hospital stay that cost $750,000? Have any idea ??

 

[Treeshepherd]

I got news for the insured guy who needs a 750,000 operation. Insurance is going to fight you on that, tooth and nail, with Ivy League lawyers. They ain't paying either, and that's just one more reason why insurance is a total scam.

Most likely, the insured guy who needs a 750,000 operation will be faced with a choice of going bankrupt, or filing a lawsuit against the place where they got hurt or some other cause of the problem.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Ok... I'm gonna ask you to squint your eyes, take a couple of steps back, and try to see how crazy that is. Health care costs aren't "just like interstate highways and bridges". Health care is a basic cost of living, more like food and housing. Think for a minute about what would happen to food costs if we tried to finance them with the same kind group insurance nonsense we try to use for health care. What do you think would happen if everyone paid a monthly fee and expected to get all the food they "need"? Would anyone have ANY incentive to look for lower prices on food? Or would the have every incentive to buy the most expensive options because it won't affect their monthly fee?

Health care costs are out of control because we can't let go of the irrational delusion that health care should be treated as a right rather than a commodity.

Proper health care is a right, a humane and civil society necessity. And, I wasn't saying that food and highways are like health care. I was saying that no single individual can pay for their own highways, and no single individual can pay for their own health care, with maybe a few exceptions. What do we do with those that can't pay their own way when it comes to proper health care? Do we allow them to just die on the street like animals?

Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.

If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.

If you want to be taken seriously, then please explain the alternative that we have to shared health care cost. How can we do it better, without insurance and government assistance programs? How can we fix it so that everyone pays their way?

I do not agree that health care is a necessity as you say.

It is a modern convenience that is all.

And most people do pay for their own insurance now don't they? So they are paying for their own health care.

But if you really want to lower the cost of health care services then allow market forces to come to bear.

Let people shop around for their health care services.

FYI - Insurance does NOT pay the entire cost. Even the best insurance plan requires out-of-pocket payments. Also, the market is dictating cost. And, yes, health care is a necessity. How many people can set bones, do open heart surgery on themselves, and stitch up their own open wounds? It is very much a necessity. I pay my insurance premiums, but my insurance doesn't cover all of the cost. It's still very expensive for me to get health care. I have Cigna major medical coverage, and I have Medicare. And, no everyone can afford coverage like I have. In order to lower cost, pharmaceuticals, clinics, labs, hospitals, and doctors would have to lower their charges. Otherwise, the cost will continue to soar out of control. The market right now is rigged in favor of the health care industry. John Q. Public has no say-so when it comes to what a doctor charges. It is a necessity that we can't provide for ourselves.

The market does not dictate cost because people have no idea what their care will cost before they get it.

Tell me how much is a blood panel?
How much is an office visit?
How much is an X ray?

You have no clue what these things cost therefore you cannot apply market pressure by finding a provider who will do it for less.

And again health care is not a necessity. People have been around for millions of years and most of those without any health care whatsoever.

If it was a necessity like food and water as you say we'd have gone extinct eons ago

 

[Skull Pilot]

Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.

If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.

For the first time in American history the average life expectancy has begun to decline for certain demographics, namely, the poor.

and that has nothing to do with them being fat, smoking or drinking right?

The sole variable is health care right?

 

[Sonny Clark]

I got news for the insured guy who needs a 750,000 operation. Insurance is going to fight you on that, tooth and nail, with Ivy League lawyers. They ain't paying either, and that's just one more reason why insurance is a total scam.

Most likely, the insured guy who needs a 750,000 operation will be faced with a choice of going bankrupt, or filing a lawsuit against the place where they got hurt or some other cause of the problem.

FYI- Ridiculously high medical bills aren't rare. Expensive operations aren't rare. Even lesser amounts of $150,000.00 are very common. One year of kidney dialysis is way over $100,000.00, and there are hundreds of thousands on dialysis each and every week of the year. Blood pressure and heart medication can cost many thousands of dollars a year. Assisted care facilities aren't cheap. While insurance companies pay part of those bills, there are still expenses required of the patients. And, bankruptcy places the bills on taxpayers. Regardless of how you slice the pie, the majority can not afford to pay for their health care in its entirety. A simple fall by an elderly person can result in several hospital stays, as well as hip replacement and surgery. Automobile accidents can, and often do, result in enormous health care cost. Remember, insurance companies do not pay 100%. Someone, whether it's insurance companies or by other means, has to pay those costs. Not many people can afford to pay their way. Not many people can afford high insurance premiums. Not many people can afford extremely high deductibles. And, many have the very minimum coverage, or no coverage at all. If people were forced to pay their own way, either they couldn't afford care, or doctors and others in the health care industry would have to lower the charges and allow small monthly payments for the life of the patient.

 

[Sonny Clark]

Proper health care is a right, a humane and civil society necessity. And, I wasn't saying that food and highways are like health care. I was saying that no single individual can pay for their own highways, and no single individual can pay for their own health care, with maybe a few exceptions. What do we do with those that can't pay their own way when it comes to proper health care? Do we allow them to just die on the street like animals?

Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.

If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.

If you want to be taken seriously, then please explain the alternative that we have to shared health care cost. How can we do it better, without insurance and government assistance programs? How can we fix it so that everyone pays their way?

I do not agree that health care is a necessity as you say.

It is a modern convenience that is all.

And most people do pay for their own insurance now don't they? So they are paying for their own health care.

But if you really want to lower the cost of health care services then allow market forces to come to bear.

Let people shop around for their health care services.

FYI - Insurance does NOT pay the entire cost. Even the best insurance plan requires out-of-pocket payments. Also, the market is dictating cost. And, yes, health care is a necessity. How many people can set bones, do open heart surgery on themselves, and stitch up their own open wounds? It is very much a necessity. I pay my insurance premiums, but my insurance doesn't cover all of the cost. It's still very expensive for me to get health care. I have Cigna major medical coverage, and I have Medicare. And, no everyone can afford coverage like I have. In order to lower cost, pharmaceuticals, clinics, labs, hospitals, and doctors would have to lower their charges. Otherwise, the cost will continue to soar out of control. The market right now is rigged in favor of the health care industry. John Q. Public has no say-so when it comes to what a doctor charges. It is a necessity that we can't provide for ourselves.

The market does not dictate cost because people have no idea what their care will cost before they get it.

Tell me how much is a blood panel?
How much is an office visit?
How much is an X ray?

You have no clue what these things cost therefore you cannot apply market pressure by finding a provider who will do it for less.

And again health care is not a necessity. People have been around for millions of years and most of those without any health care whatsoever.

If it was a necessity like food and water as you say we'd have gone extinct eons ago

We'll agree to disagree on this subject. We're going around in circles here. I disagree with you, and you disagree with me. I stand by my view and opinion, and it's equally obvious that you're standing by your view and opinion.

 

[Treeshepherd]

I can afford my care, because it's free. I had stitches when I was 17, and that was my last doctor visit.

I just ate an orange. I do yoga. I drink aloe vera to sooth my stomach after drinking too much over the holidays, and I take at least 1 month off per year from drinking.

Most importantly, I haven't taken anti-biotics for like, I don't even remember, maybe 30 years. The strongest medicine I've taken during that time is aspirin. I've let my own body do the healing, so my immune system is incredibly powerful. When germs enter my body, the germs get sick.

My strategy is a legitimate health strategy, but it takes decades to develop this level of resistance. I could probably sell my gut fauna online.

The alternative is to get put on drugs for a lifetime, because a doctor can always find a problem. "Sorry, patient, you have disease X". Now, you're labelled. Now, the placebo effect works toward the negative and you're locked into a lifetime of psycho-somatic symptoms.

 

[Sonny Clark]

I can afford my care, because it's free. I had stitches when I was 17, and that was my last doctor visit.

I just ate an orange. I do yoga. I drink aloe vera to sooth my stomach after drinking too much over the holidays, and I take at least 1 month off per year from drinking.

Most importantly, I haven't taken anti-biotics for like, I don't even remember, maybe 30 years. The strongest medicine I've taken during that time is aspirin. I've let my own body do the healing, so my immune system is incredibly powerful. When germs enter my body, the germs get sick.

My strategy is a legitimate health strategy, but it takes decades to develop this level of resistance. I could probably sell my gut fauna online.

The alternative is to get put on drugs for a lifetime, because a doctor can always find a problem. "Sorry, patient, you have disease X". Now, you're labelled. Now, the placebo effect works toward the negative and you're locked into a lifetime of psycho-somatic symptoms.

Congrats on your lifetime of good health. Unfortunately, that is not the case with many people. Not everyone that gets sick is engaging in bad habits or dangerous living. Some require health care due to aging, others due to accidents, others due to exposure to some illness, and others get sick from infections and diseases. No one intentionally does something to warrant a doctor or hospital care.

 

[dblack]

What's wrong with this option?:

My heart is failing which means it's time for me to die. Why has it become imperative that I be kept alive at all costs? Is it fair for me to burden my family with giant medical costs just so I can add a few more years of life which would likely be a low quality of life?

If that were the decision, we'd be more rational about it. But it's not. The decision is whether or not to it's fair to burden some faceless, socialized, health-care cost sharing scheme. Faced with that kind of decision, there's every incentive to go for broke.

Meaning: stop trying to control how other people take care of their health. Meaning: stop using government to tell people what kind of health care they're allowed to seek. Stop trying to tell people how they can pay for their health care.

People aren't, generally, stupid. We can take care of ourselves without resorting to coercive state mandates.

I understand what you're saying here. But, still, the problem is one of rising cost, and individuals need some form of assistance in order to get the necessary treatment they need when it comes to proper health care. Regardless of whether we have choices or not, regardless of whether those choices include government requirements, and regardless of insurance or lack of insurance, we still need help paying for proper health care. It's not a choice of paying or allowing others to subsidize it, we all need some form of help paying for health care.

Again, I have to ask you to check the sanity of such a statement. If we all need help, who's doing the "helping"?

There's a lot of sanity in the statement. It's factual and a truism. The help is coming from taxpayers, charities, trust funds, family members, and from debt forgiveness. Examples: Medicare, Medicaid, trust funds such as St. Jude's Children Hospital, and in some cases, debt forgiveness which turns into tax write-offs. Just common sense and simple logic.

No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.

FYI - The average person can NOT afford basic health care. I just had an MRI that cost over $4,000. My prescriptions would cost a lot of money each month without insurance covering 95% of the cost. Can you imagine what the expense it would be for a family of four just to have an annual check-up? Do you realize what lab work cost? Do you know what an average doctor visit cost? The average person is doing well just to pay mortgage ( rent ), food, transportation, utilities, clothing, and insurance on their home and auto. Most people do not have a nest egg to draw from. People aren't making the money they use to make. The cost of living has gone up. Employers are paying less benefits for employees. A lot of college kids have enormous student loan debt. Seniors have lost equity in their homes, and some have lost part of their pensions due to mismanagement of the funds by unions and cities. We are not a wealthy citizenry. We are not a self-supporting people, nor a self-supporting nation. Proper health care is an enormous cost. At some point, almost everyone needs some form of assistance. Again, common sense and simple logic.

Again, I think we have to stop and think about the basic assumptions at work here. How are you defining 'basic health care'? I'd argue that, rather than picking some arbitrary minimum of health care, and then whining because everyone can't afford it, it makes more sense to establish our idea of basic health care based on what most people can afford. Our expectations need to match reality, and currently, they don't.