A Necessity, NOT A Luxury

[Jackinthebox]

"Some people" aren't the problem. The problem isn't social safety nets. The problem is that we're trying to fit everyone into those safety nets, which defeats the purpose. The only way we can help out the people who fall through the cracks is if most of us are paying our own way.

Most of us aren't paying our own way because of depressed wage standards. You could be well above the poverty line and minim wage pay, and still not be able to afford medical care. I was attacked a few weeks ago on the street. $12,000 bill for about 12 hours in the ER and an ambulance ride. That is about what a min wage worker makes in an entire year.

 

[Sonny Clark]

When families have to make these decisions, when it's presented as a choice between blowing the family savings or squeezing every last minute out of life, people make better decisions. My own father was faced with that dilemma, and chose to accept reality and leave his wife with a decent retirement, rather than live his last few years clinging to life in a hospital bed and leave her with nothing.

Yes, some people do have choices, but not everyone. It's impossible for everyone to pay the cost of proper health care. And, since it's a necessity, debt or spending life savings are choices we're forced into. We can't expect or allow everyone to just die on the streets because of the high cost of health care. We are a humane and civil society that tends to care for others, even it means a portion of our tax dollars are spent on the poor and less fortunate among us.

"Some people" aren't the problem. The problem isn't social safety nets. The problem is that we're trying to fit everyone into those safety nets, which defeats the purpose. The only way we can help out the people who fall through the cracks is if most of us are paying our own way.

Oh yes, it'd be nice if everyone was financially able to do just that. But, health care is very expensive, and only a very small percentage of Americans have the resources to pay their way. Health care cost is just like interstate highways and bridges. How many citizens can pay for their own roadways and bridges? How many people can afford to pay for their own army and national security? There are things that individuals just can't afford. Being a civil and humane people and society, we make sacrifices in order to help others. In addition, since you've mentioned tax dollars, why not mention and include the astronomical amount we spend on illegal immigrants, senseless deadly costly wars, subsidies to rich farmers and big oil, Congressional perks and benefits, unnecessary military equipment and bases on foreign soil, worthless stupid projects such as the fence along our southern border, exploring the far reaches of the universe, and other taxpayer tax dollars wasted?

 

[dblack]

the greed is not the doctors but the insurance companies......lets not forget when they made the decisions according to profit margins and let people die....seems people have forgotten the horrors of insurance companies making the decisions on who lives and who dies based on how profitable it is for the company....

The "greed" is with people who don't want to face reality. Let's cut to the chase of the real problem underlying our national health care delusion: everyone wants to live forever and no one wants to pay for it. When you look at where the bulk of our health care dollars are being wasted, it's in pointless end-of-life spending. We need to get it through our heads that it's stupid to blow the family savings keeping grandma alive for an extra three months.

There is some truth in that, but it's not the whole story. My grandmother spent a fortune on medical care in the last ten years of her life. On the other hand, she also watched every penny, and was furious whenever she saw things like double billing, other billing errors, blatant abuses of one company to another with her in the middle. Outright fraud in many instances, but no one to report it to, and no one who wanted to listen when she did. Sometimes she felt she was getting ripped off personally, but for the most part, what she saw was just systematic fraud going unchecked.

It sounds like she was spending her own money, which hits on the what enables the foolish spending in the first place: the fact is, most of us aren't. We've gone to ridiculous extremes to avoid paying for our own health care and shift the costs on to the rest of society. That removes the crucial incentive to be prudent with personal health care spending.

When families have to make these decisions, when it's presented as a choice between blowing the family savings or squeezing every last minute out of life, people make better decisions. My own father was faced with that dilemma, and chose to accept reality and leave his wife with a decent retirement, rather than live his last few years clinging to life in a hospital bed and leave her with nothing.

I don't know how much Medicaid covered her, but I know she had private insurance too. Either way though, the lack of affordability is what has led to socialized medical care, not the other way around. Fascist healthcare I should say really. I would be sooner to accept a national healthcare system, rather than a government mandate to participate in PRIVATE industry. I would rather see public health clinics open for free or subsidized cost, than see be ordered to buy medical coverage in a broken system.

Absolutely. That's what I find so repugnant about ACA. I'm no fan of socialism, and would argue instead for the freedom to manage our health care as we see fit, but we could provide basic health care as a government service sanely, in much the same way we provide basic education. But, like education, it's crucial that it be done locally, where we can more easily avoid corporatist nightmares like ACA.

 

[Jackinthebox]

Absolutely. That's what I find so repugnant about ACA. I'm no fan of socialism, and would argue instead for the freedom to manage our health care as we see fit, but we could provide basic health care as a government service sanely, in much the same way we provide basic education. But, like education, it's crucial that it be done locally, where we can more easily avoid corporatist nightmares like ACA.

I would suggest revamping the VA to include citizens across the board. Expand the VA hospitals and services. A program like that might actually IMPROVE veteran care, since so many more people were part of it, bringing down the "cost per unit" so to speak.

 

[dblack]

"Some people" aren't the problem. The problem isn't social safety nets. The problem is that we're trying to fit everyone into those safety nets, which defeats the purpose. The only way we can help out the people who fall through the cracks is if most of us are paying our own way.

Most of us aren't paying our own way because of depressed wage standards. You could be well above the poverty line and minim wage pay, and still not be able to afford medical care. I was attacked a few weeks ago on the street. $12,000 bill for about 12 hours in the ER and an ambulance ride. That is about what a min wage worker makes in an entire year.

And depressed wage standards are facilitated by the fact that most of us aren't paying our own way. It's the same chicken and egg argument that goes on with the whining about Walmart underpaying employees who are on welfare.

 

[Sonny Clark]

"Some people" aren't the problem. The problem isn't social safety nets. The problem is that we're trying to fit everyone into those safety nets, which defeats the purpose. The only way we can help out the people who fall through the cracks is if most of us are paying our own way.

Most of us aren't paying our own way because of depressed wage standards. You could be well above the poverty line and minim wage pay, and still not be able to afford medical care. I was attacked a few weeks ago on the street. $12,000 bill for about 12 hours in the ER and an ambulance ride. That is about what a min wage worker makes in an entire year.

And depressed wage standards are facilitated by the fact that most of us aren't paying our own way. It's the same chicken and egg argument that goes on with the whining about Walmart underpaying employees who are on welfare.

How do the dots connect between wages and one paying their own way? Please explain.

 

[Jackinthebox]

And depressed wage standards are facilitated by the fact that most of us aren't paying our own way. It's the same chicken and egg argument that goes on with the whining about Walmart underpaying employees who are on welfare.

Except that we see from the historical data that deteriorating wages has driven up prices, not the other way around. Low pay has not brought down prices, obviously.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Health care is a modern convenience not a necessity.

For the better part of the human race's existence we did not have health care and we still managed to become the dominant species.

 

[dblack]

When families have to make these decisions, when it's presented as a choice between blowing the family savings or squeezing every last minute out of life, people make better decisions. My own father was faced with that dilemma, and chose to accept reality and leave his wife with a decent retirement, rather than live his last few years clinging to life in a hospital bed and leave her with nothing.

Yes, some people do have choices, but not everyone. It's impossible for everyone to pay the cost of proper health care. And, since it's a necessity, debt or spending life savings are choices we're forced into. We can't expect or allow everyone to just die on the streets because of the high cost of health care. We are a humane and civil society that tends to care for others, even it means a portion of our tax dollars are spent on the poor and less fortunate among us.

"Some people" aren't the problem. The problem isn't social safety nets. The problem is that we're trying to fit everyone into those safety nets, which defeats the purpose. The only way we can help out the people who fall through the cracks is if most of us are paying our own way.

Oh yes, it'd be nice if everyone was financially able to do just that. But, health care is very expensive, and only a very small percentage of Americans have the resources to pay their way. Health care cost is just like interstate highways and bridges. How many citizens can pay for their own roadways and bridges? How many people can afford to pay for their own army and national security? There are things that individuals just can't afford. Being a civil and humane people and society, we make sacrifices in order to help others.

Ok... I'm gonna ask you to squint your eyes, take a couple of steps back, and try to see how crazy that is. Health care costs aren't "just like interstate highways and bridges". Health care is a basic cost of living, more like food and housing. Think for a minute about what would happen to food costs if we tried to finance them with the same kind group insurance nonsense we try to use for health care. What do you think would happen if everyone paid a monthly fee and expected to get all the food they "need"? Would anyone have ANY incentive to look for lower prices on food? Or would the have every incentive to buy the most expensive options because it won't affect their monthly fee?

Health care costs are out of control because we can't let go of the irrational delusion that health care should be treated as a right rather than a commodity.

 

[Sonny Clark]

And depressed wage standards are facilitated by the fact that most of us aren't paying our own way. It's the same chicken and egg argument that goes on with the whining about Walmart underpaying employees who are on welfare.

Except that we see from the historical data that deteriorating wages has driven up prices, not the other way around. Low pay has not brought down prices, obviously.

No, low pay has not decreased the cost of goods and services, I agree. But, wages are not the reason for inflated prices. We still have execs making $millions, corporate profits are up, and still employers are putting more cost on the shoulders of employees. Greed raises the cost of goods and services. A good example is the price of oil. It cost the same to extract a barrel of oil today as it did a month ago. But, the prices for gasoline, jet furl, and oil by-products continue to fluctuate. Commodity speculators drive the price of oil, and in some cases, the demand for goods and services drive cost. When prices go up, it doesn't necessarily mean the cost of production goes up in relation to fluctuations in end user cost.

 

[dblack]

And depressed wage standards are facilitated by the fact that most of us aren't paying our own way. It's the same chicken and egg argument that goes on with the whining about Walmart underpaying employees who are on welfare.

Except that we see from the historical data that deteriorating wages has driven up prices, not the other way around. Low pay has not brought down prices, obviously.

Yeah, you're droning on with this idiocy in another thread. I don't want to retrace it here.

 

[dblack]

In addition, since you've mentioned tax dollars, why not mention and include the astronomical amount we spend on illegal immigrants, senseless deadly costly wars, subsidies to rich farmers and big oil, Congressional perks and benefits, unnecessary military equipment and bases on foreign soil, worthless stupid projects such as the fence along our southern border, exploring the far reaches of the universe, and other taxpayer tax dollars wasted?

I didn't mentioned it because the topic here is health care. But I totally agree.

 

[Sonny Clark]

When families have to make these decisions, when it's presented as a choice between blowing the family savings or squeezing every last minute out of life, people make better decisions. My own father was faced with that dilemma, and chose to accept reality and leave his wife with a decent retirement, rather than live his last few years clinging to life in a hospital bed and leave her with nothing.

Yes, some people do have choices, but not everyone. It's impossible for everyone to pay the cost of proper health care. And, since it's a necessity, debt or spending life savings are choices we're forced into. We can't expect or allow everyone to just die on the streets because of the high cost of health care. We are a humane and civil society that tends to care for others, even it means a portion of our tax dollars are spent on the poor and less fortunate among us.

"Some people" aren't the problem. The problem isn't social safety nets. The problem is that we're trying to fit everyone into those safety nets, which defeats the purpose. The only way we can help out the people who fall through the cracks is if most of us are paying our own way.

Oh yes, it'd be nice if everyone was financially able to do just that. But, health care is very expensive, and only a very small percentage of Americans have the resources to pay their way. Health care cost is just like interstate highways and bridges. How many citizens can pay for their own roadways and bridges? How many people can afford to pay for their own army and national security? There are things that individuals just can't afford. Being a civil and humane people and society, we make sacrifices in order to help others.

Ok... I'm gonna ask you to squint your eyes, take a couple of steps back, and try to see how crazy that is. Health care costs aren't "just like interstate highways and bridges". Health care is a basic cost of living, more like food and housing. Think for a minute about what would happen to food costs if we tried to finance them with the same kind group insurance nonsense we try to use for health care. What do you think would happen if everyone paid a monthly fee and expected to get all the food they "need"? Would anyone have ANY incentive to look for lower prices on food? Or would the have every incentive to buy the most expensive options because it won't affect their monthly fee?

Health care costs are out of control because we can't let go of the irrational delusion that health care should be treated as a right rather than a commodity.

Proper health care is a right, a humane and civil society necessity. And, I wasn't saying that food and highways are like health care. I was saying that no single individual can pay for their own highways, and no single individual can pay for their own health care, with maybe a few exceptions. What do we do with those that can't pay their own way when it comes to proper health care? Do we allow them to just die on the street like animals?

 

[Skull Pilot]

When families have to make these decisions, when it's presented as a choice between blowing the family savings or squeezing every last minute out of life, people make better decisions. My own father was faced with that dilemma, and chose to accept reality and leave his wife with a decent retirement, rather than live his last few years clinging to life in a hospital bed and leave her with nothing.

Yes, some people do have choices, but not everyone. It's impossible for everyone to pay the cost of proper health care. And, since it's a necessity, debt or spending life savings are choices we're forced into. We can't expect or allow everyone to just die on the streets because of the high cost of health care. We are a humane and civil society that tends to care for others, even it means a portion of our tax dollars are spent on the poor and less fortunate among us.

"Some people" aren't the problem. The problem isn't social safety nets. The problem is that we're trying to fit everyone into those safety nets, which defeats the purpose. The only way we can help out the people who fall through the cracks is if most of us are paying our own way.

Oh yes, it'd be nice if everyone was financially able to do just that. But, health care is very expensive, and only a very small percentage of Americans have the resources to pay their way. Health care cost is just like interstate highways and bridges. How many citizens can pay for their own roadways and bridges? How many people can afford to pay for their own army and national security? There are things that individuals just can't afford. Being a civil and humane people and society, we make sacrifices in order to help others.

Ok... I'm gonna ask you to squint your eyes, take a couple of steps back, and try to see how crazy that is. Health care costs aren't "just like interstate highways and bridges". Health care is a basic cost of living, more like food and housing. Think for a minute about what would happen to food costs if we tried to finance them with the same kind group insurance nonsense we try to use for health care. What do you think would happen if everyone paid a monthly fee and expected to get all the food they "need"? Would anyone have ANY incentive to look for lower prices on food? Or would the have every incentive to buy the most expensive options because it won't affect their monthly fee?

Health care costs are out of control because we can't let go of the irrational delusion that health care should be treated as a right rather than a commodity.

Proper health care is a right, a humane and civil society necessity. And, I wasn't saying that food and highways are like health care. I was saying that no single individual can pay for their own highways, and no single individual can pay for their own health care, with maybe a few exceptions. What do we do with those that can't pay their own way when it comes to proper health care? Do we allow them to just die on the street like animals?

Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.

If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.

 

[dblack]

Health care costs are out of control because we can't let go of the irrational delusion that health care should be treated as a right rather than a commodity.

Proper health care is a right, a humane and civil society necessity.

Case in point.

 

[Sonny Clark]

Yes, some people do have choices, but not everyone. It's impossible for everyone to pay the cost of proper health care. And, since it's a necessity, debt or spending life savings are choices we're forced into. We can't expect or allow everyone to just die on the streets because of the high cost of health care. We are a humane and civil society that tends to care for others, even it means a portion of our tax dollars are spent on the poor and less fortunate among us.

"Some people" aren't the problem. The problem isn't social safety nets. The problem is that we're trying to fit everyone into those safety nets, which defeats the purpose. The only way we can help out the people who fall through the cracks is if most of us are paying our own way.

Oh yes, it'd be nice if everyone was financially able to do just that. But, health care is very expensive, and only a very small percentage of Americans have the resources to pay their way. Health care cost is just like interstate highways and bridges. How many citizens can pay for their own roadways and bridges? How many people can afford to pay for their own army and national security? There are things that individuals just can't afford. Being a civil and humane people and society, we make sacrifices in order to help others.

Ok... I'm gonna ask you to squint your eyes, take a couple of steps back, and try to see how crazy that is. Health care costs aren't "just like interstate highways and bridges". Health care is a basic cost of living, more like food and housing. Think for a minute about what would happen to food costs if we tried to finance them with the same kind group insurance nonsense we try to use for health care. What do you think would happen if everyone paid a monthly fee and expected to get all the food they "need"? Would anyone have ANY incentive to look for lower prices on food? Or would the have every incentive to buy the most expensive options because it won't affect their monthly fee?

Health care costs are out of control because we can't let go of the irrational delusion that health care should be treated as a right rather than a commodity.

Proper health care is a right, a humane and civil society necessity. And, I wasn't saying that food and highways are like health care. I was saying that no single individual can pay for their own highways, and no single individual can pay for their own health care, with maybe a few exceptions. What do we do with those that can't pay their own way when it comes to proper health care? Do we allow them to just die on the street like animals?

Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.

If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.

If you want to be taken seriously, then please explain the alternative that we have to shared health care cost. How can we do it better, without insurance and government assistance programs? How can we fix it so that everyone pays their way?

 

[dblack]

"Some people" aren't the problem. The problem isn't social safety nets. The problem is that we're trying to fit everyone into those safety nets, which defeats the purpose. The only way we can help out the people who fall through the cracks is if most of us are paying our own way.

Oh yes, it'd be nice if everyone was financially able to do just that. But, health care is very expensive, and only a very small percentage of Americans have the resources to pay their way. Health care cost is just like interstate highways and bridges. How many citizens can pay for their own roadways and bridges? How many people can afford to pay for their own army and national security? There are things that individuals just can't afford. Being a civil and humane people and society, we make sacrifices in order to help others.

Ok... I'm gonna ask you to squint your eyes, take a couple of steps back, and try to see how crazy that is. Health care costs aren't "just like interstate highways and bridges". Health care is a basic cost of living, more like food and housing. Think for a minute about what would happen to food costs if we tried to finance them with the same kind group insurance nonsense we try to use for health care. What do you think would happen if everyone paid a monthly fee and expected to get all the food they "need"? Would anyone have ANY incentive to look for lower prices on food? Or would the have every incentive to buy the most expensive options because it won't affect their monthly fee?

Health care costs are out of control because we can't let go of the irrational delusion that health care should be treated as a right rather than a commodity.

Proper health care is a right, a humane and civil society necessity. And, I wasn't saying that food and highways are like health care. I was saying that no single individual can pay for their own highways, and no single individual can pay for their own health care, with maybe a few exceptions. What do we do with those that can't pay their own way when it comes to proper health care? Do we allow them to just die on the street like animals?

Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.

If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.

If you want to be taken seriously, then please explain the alternative that we have to shared health care cost. How can we do it better, without insurance and government assistance programs? How can we fix it so that everyone pays their way?

Get out of the way.

 

[Sonny Clark]

Oh yes, it'd be nice if everyone was financially able to do just that. But, health care is very expensive, and only a very small percentage of Americans have the resources to pay their way. Health care cost is just like interstate highways and bridges. How many citizens can pay for their own roadways and bridges? How many people can afford to pay for their own army and national security? There are things that individuals just can't afford. Being a civil and humane people and society, we make sacrifices in order to help others.

Ok... I'm gonna ask you to squint your eyes, take a couple of steps back, and try to see how crazy that is. Health care costs aren't "just like interstate highways and bridges". Health care is a basic cost of living, more like food and housing. Think for a minute about what would happen to food costs if we tried to finance them with the same kind group insurance nonsense we try to use for health care. What do you think would happen if everyone paid a monthly fee and expected to get all the food they "need"? Would anyone have ANY incentive to look for lower prices on food? Or would the have every incentive to buy the most expensive options because it won't affect their monthly fee?

Health care costs are out of control because we can't let go of the irrational delusion that health care should be treated as a right rather than a commodity.

Proper health care is a right, a humane and civil society necessity. And, I wasn't saying that food and highways are like health care. I was saying that no single individual can pay for their own highways, and no single individual can pay for their own health care, with maybe a few exceptions. What do we do with those that can't pay their own way when it comes to proper health care? Do we allow them to just die on the street like animals?

Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.

If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.

If you want to be taken seriously, then please explain the alternative that we have to shared health care cost. How can we do it better, without insurance and government assistance programs? How can we fix it so that everyone pays their way?

Get out of the way.

Meaning what exactly? Please explain. Thanks.

 

[Skull Pilot]

"Some people" aren't the problem. The problem isn't social safety nets. The problem is that we're trying to fit everyone into those safety nets, which defeats the purpose. The only way we can help out the people who fall through the cracks is if most of us are paying our own way.

Oh yes, it'd be nice if everyone was financially able to do just that. But, health care is very expensive, and only a very small percentage of Americans have the resources to pay their way. Health care cost is just like interstate highways and bridges. How many citizens can pay for their own roadways and bridges? How many people can afford to pay for their own army and national security? There are things that individuals just can't afford. Being a civil and humane people and society, we make sacrifices in order to help others.

Ok... I'm gonna ask you to squint your eyes, take a couple of steps back, and try to see how crazy that is. Health care costs aren't "just like interstate highways and bridges". Health care is a basic cost of living, more like food and housing. Think for a minute about what would happen to food costs if we tried to finance them with the same kind group insurance nonsense we try to use for health care. What do you think would happen if everyone paid a monthly fee and expected to get all the food they "need"? Would anyone have ANY incentive to look for lower prices on food? Or would the have every incentive to buy the most expensive options because it won't affect their monthly fee?

Health care costs are out of control because we can't let go of the irrational delusion that health care should be treated as a right rather than a commodity.

Proper health care is a right, a humane and civil society necessity. And, I wasn't saying that food and highways are like health care. I was saying that no single individual can pay for their own highways, and no single individual can pay for their own health care, with maybe a few exceptions. What do we do with those that can't pay their own way when it comes to proper health care? Do we allow them to just die on the street like animals?

Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.

If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.

If you want to be taken seriously, then please explain the alternative that we have to shared health care cost. How can we do it better, without insurance and government assistance programs? How can we fix it so that everyone pays their way?

I do not agree that health care is a necessity as you say.

It is a modern convenience that is all.

And most people do pay for their own insurance now don't they? So they are paying for their own health care.

But if you really want to lower the cost of health care services then allow market forces to come to bear.

Let people shop around for their health care services.

 

[BlackSand]

... and no single individual can pay for their own health care, with maybe a few exceptions ...

Even if they can afford their own healthcare ... It is against the law for them not to have insurance now ... And they are taxed at 2% of their income if they don't not intend on getting "healthcare" (insurance) as defined and mandated by your government.

The ACA doesn't provide healthcare ... It makes people buy health insurance. Having a right to healthcare does not equate to paying what the government mandates in insurance. The individual is no closer to affording the medical care they need if they cannot afford the deductible.

.