A modest proposal on taxes

[inALIENable]

Any tax proposal must pass this test before I will consider it: is it moral? I.e. is it voluntary, such as a VAT is?

 

[zeke]

You assume all lower income people affected by a regressive tax are on welfare.

You mean to say they are not?

Why, that can't be correct. All you have to do is spend 30 minutes reading right here and you will find that not only are all Democrats on welfare, but all welfare recipients are crooks and thieves just sucking on the guvmint teat. And all Repubs are corporate capitalist self made men. And wannabe millioniares.

It is hilarious. If it wasn't so pitiful.

 

[Flopper]

Rather then giving them low tax rates AND welfare then fighting endlessly over both, we just include their taxes in their welfare and tax them the same as everyone else?

Does this make sense? If the government is going to give them a welfare check and take out taxes, it would be a lot simpler if they just reduced the check by the amount of the tax. Why give them money that you're going take back immediately.

Because then it makes the politicians who sponsored the legislation to give them more money looks even better.

I must be missing something, why not start taxing at the poverty line? Start at 1%, gradually increase up to whatever your top rate is, and eliminate any and all deductions and exemptions. Cap gains counts the same as every other type of income.

Same deal for corp taxes, no breaks, no loopholes, no deductions. Big or little, you pay a flat rate, maybe give the first $100,000 as tax free to spur startups.

I don't understand your proposal. You say "Start at 1%, gradually increase up to whatever your top rate is". Then you say, "Big or little, you pay a flat rate". It's not a flat rate if you gradually increase it.

There are two problem will eliminating all deductions and credits. First, it will never happen. Second, if it did, Congress would add them back into to the tax code. Remember, the 5600 page tax code was not in 16th amendment. It was created by Congress. Congress is now controlled by special interest groups and large corporations which will see that the tax relief that best serves their interest is enacted into law.

 

[NYcarbineer]

What if we taxed everyone the same? I know, the liberals are going to say low income people can't afford it. So, what if their welfare included consideration that they are paying taxes on their income? Rather then giving them low tax rates AND welfare then fighting endlessly over both, we just include their taxes in their welfare and tax them the same as everyone else? That way we eliminate the whole tax half of the battle and make it easier for us both by just fighting about how much welfare they get? Brilliant? Eh?

In this I'm not taking a position on what tax system we have. Just saying whatever it is we tax everyone the same. And I'm not taking a position on welfare, just saying whatever system it is includes consideration for their taxes.

If you taxed everyone the same, and assuming you set it up to collect the same revenue we're collecting now (which is the only sensible way to discuss it)

then most of the people on this board would get a tax increase, or at best pay the same. That is my estimate. How many of you are on board with that?

The Rich would get a tax cut, some in the upper middle to middle would pay the same, and everyone below that would pay more.

 

[NYcarbineer]

What if we taxed everyone the same? I know, the liberals are going to say low income people can't afford it. So, what if their welfare included consideration that they are paying taxes on their income? Rather then giving them low tax rates AND welfare then fighting endlessly over both, we just include their taxes in their welfare and tax them the same as everyone else? That way we eliminate the whole tax half of the battle and make it easier for us both by just fighting about how much welfare they get? Brilliant? Eh?

In this I'm not taking a position on what tax system we have. Just saying whatever it is we tax everyone the same. And I'm not taking a position on welfare, just saying whatever system it is includes consideration for their taxes.

If a working person or household was eligible for foodstamps, why would you raise their taxes and then give them foodstamps?

That would be like selling them foodstamps. What would be the sense in that?

 

[Skull Pilot]

IMO everyone should pay 15% of their gross income to the feds. No deductions, no exemptions no refundable tax credits just 15% off the top and done.

I love the idea of a tax form being 2 lines long.

Just think of all the government hacks we could get rid of by abolishing the IRS.

 

[gallantwarrior]

as a last resort, you could eat your children.

Why not, they can always have more.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Nah, we need to stop with taxing income, that's FORCED slavery, and that's immoral, and probably results in bad national karma too.

Tax spending instead. Tax all non-essentials to replace income tax. This shouldn't affect the poor that much, they can't afford discretionary spending anyhow. Just move the tax from the back-end to the front-end. Government could also temporarily reduce tax selectively to encourage spending in select industries (i.e. buy a car this weekend and pay only 20% VAT instead of 40%).

Income tax is forced slavery and that makes the US an immoral nation.

Taxing consumption is a fair way to tax people at all income levels. Poor people buy less, they pay less in taxes. Wealthy people buy more, and more expensive goods, they pay proportionately more tax. It's all pretty simple, really.

 

[Skull Pilot]

as a last resort, you could eat your children.

Why not, they can always have more.

 

[Ariux]

Taxing consumption is a fair way to tax people at all income levels. Poor people buy less, they pay less in taxes. Wealthy people buy more, and more expensive goods, they pay proportionately more tax. It's all pretty simple, really.

I don't blame you. I blame the public school that turned your brain into a ball of shit. As a percent of income, poor people buy more than rich people. And, even if the poor didn't spend more, the primary activity of the federal government is to re-distribute income, and only a shit-for-brains asshole would think replacing low taxes with welfare is the way to go.

 

[Flopper]

IMO everyone should pay 15% of their gross income to the feds. No deductions, no exemptions no refundable tax credits just 15% off the top and done.

I love the idea of a tax form being 2 lines long.

Just think of all the government hacks we could get rid of by abolishing the IRS.

For every complex problem there is a simple solution... and it's usually wrong.

 

[Skull Pilot]

IMO everyone should pay 15% of their gross income to the feds. No deductions, no exemptions no refundable tax credits just 15% off the top and done.

I love the idea of a tax form being 2 lines long.

Just think of all the government hacks we could get rid of by abolishing the IRS.

For every complex problem there is a simple solution... and it's usually wrong.

The usual crap that complicated is best.

There is elegance in simplicity but then you'd probably rather a 70,000 page code that no one really understands.

 

[kaz]

This is the problem with those of you on the right. You want everything to be fair and equal at the federal level, but at the state level you are happy with the lowest income workers paying the bulk of the taxes while the wealthy pay next to nothing as a percentage of income

Actually I have said I'm not addressing in this discussion the following

1) our tax system
2) our welfare system
3) state taxes.

Every time you try to talk to liberals about anything, you try to take the discussion down a rat hole. I will say I don't agree with how any of the three above work today. I'll be glad to discuss them somewhere else. But start your own thread on those, this one's about the point I made in the op about eating children. Er, I mean considering taxes in welfare...rather then constantly fighting about both.

 

[NYcarbineer]

This is the problem with those of you on the right. You want everything to be fair and equal at the federal level, but at the state level you are happy with the lowest income workers paying the bulk of the taxes while the wealthy pay next to nothing as a percentage of income

Actually I have said I'm not addressing in this discussion the following

1) our tax system
2) our welfare system
3) state taxes.

Every time you try to talk to liberals about anything, you try to take the discussion down a rat hole. I will say I don't agree with how any of the three above work today. I'll be glad to discuss them somewhere else. But start your own thread on those, this one's about the point I made in the op about eating children. Er, I mean considering taxes in welfare...rather then constantly fighting about both.

You want poor people to pay their taxes with their welfare benefits?

 

[Ariux]

You want poor people to pay their taxes with their welfare benefits?

And, he wants low-income people not on welfare to go on welfare so that they can pay higher taxes.

 

[inALIENable]

You want poor people to pay their taxes with their welfare benefits?

Well, that would be nice if they gave back a little of what they have stolen from those that had to work for all that, wouldn't you agree? But, I suppose that's too much to expect of leeches and moochers, just like it's too much to expect them to ever get their shit together, huh? Lowlifes are the worst.

 

[Flopper]

IMO everyone should pay 15% of their gross income to the feds. No deductions, no exemptions no refundable tax credits just 15% off the top and done.

I love the idea of a tax form being 2 lines long.

Just think of all the government hacks we could get rid of by abolishing the IRS.

For every complex problem there is a simple solution... and it's usually wrong.

The usual crap that complicated is best.

There is elegance in simplicity but then you'd probably rather a 70,000 page code that no one really understands.

If we had a flat tax with no credits or deduction, it would not make it through a single session of congress without modifications. Small businesses would be demanding deductions for the cost of doing business. Investors would be asking for tax cuts to stimulate investment. Churches and charitable organization would be asking for a deductions for charitable giving. The investment companies would lobbying for deductions for retirement contributions and health savings accounts. Banks, mortgage companies, and construction companies would be lobbying to restore tax deductions for mortgages. etc, etc.... You would have to live in LA LA land to believe that congress would not respond. Within 10 years, we would be well on our way to the same complex mess that we have today. The only way to accomplish what you propose would be to repeal and replace the 16 amendment and the associated laws. That certainly would not happen because congress would not give up their power to change taxes as needed.

Any idiot can come up with a simple tax system. Devising a simple system that would pass congress, satisfy the courts, and be supported by the American people, large corporations, and special interest groups is another matter.

 

[gallantwarrior]

For every complex problem there is a simple solution... and it's usually wrong.

The usual crap that complicated is best.

There is elegance in simplicity but then you'd probably rather a 70,000 page code that no one really understands.

If we had a flat tax with no credits or deduction, it would not make it through a single session of congress without modifications. Small businesses would be demanding deductions for the cost of doing business. Investors would be asking for tax cuts to stimulate investment. Churches and charitable organization would be asking for a deductions for charitable giving. The investment companies would lobbying for deductions for retirement contributions and health savings accounts. Banks, mortgage companies, and construction companies would be lobbying to restore tax deductions for mortgages. etc, etc.... You would have to live in LA LA land to believe that congress would not respond. Within 10 years, we would be well on our way to the same complex mess that we have today. The only way to accomplish what you propose would be to repeal and replace the 16 amendment and the associated laws. That certainly would not happen because congress would not give up their power to change taxes as needed.

Any idiot can come up with a simple tax system. Devising a simple system that would pass congress, satisfy the courts, and be supported by the American people, large corporations, and special interest groups is another matter.

The choke point, regardless of how well-written, how completely thought out and thorough any tax proposal might be, the only insurmountable hurdle is Congress. Even if a proposal should be wildly popular with the people and pass the muster of the courts, Congress would fall prey to the temptations presented by special interest groups of all stripes.

 

[Ariux]

If we had a flat tax with no credits or deduction, it would not make it through a single session of congress without modifications.

I know almost everything there is to know, such as what causes quantum fluctuations, what you'd encounter in a black hole, how to cure cancer, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin... but I don't have the slightest understanding of what makes people so stupid. "If we just give rich people a tax cut (e.g. a "flat tax", the elimination of the higher tax brackets), then the tax code would be unalterably simple." Uh?

 

[Flopper]

What if we taxed everyone the same? I know, the liberals are going to say low income people can't afford it. So, what if their welfare included consideration that they are paying taxes on their income? Rather then giving them low tax rates AND welfare then fighting endlessly over both, we just include their taxes in their welfare and tax them the same as everyone else? That way we eliminate the whole tax half of the battle and make it easier for us both by just fighting about how much welfare they get? Brilliant? Eh?

In this I'm not taking a position on what tax system we have. Just saying whatever it is we tax everyone the same. And I'm not taking a position on welfare, just saying whatever system it is includes consideration for their taxes.

Many people that receive welfare pay taxes. If you hold a job during the year and you receive welfare, as many people do, you certainly may be required to pay taxes. The majority of families leave the welfare system after a relatively short period of time -- about half leave within a year; 70 percent within two years and almost 90 percent within five years. There are many people who are on welfare 3 to 6 months then get a job and go off welfare. If they lose the job, they go back on welfare. So within any one year there a lot people who receive both welfare and taxable income.