A Liberal View Of July 4th

[red states rule]

I read this and could not believe it. Only a liberal would smear his country and fellow Americans on July 4th


Put away the flags

By Howard Zinn

On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.

Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?

These ways of thinking -- cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on -- have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.

National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway, Costa Rica and many more). But in a nation like ours -- huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction -- what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.

Our citizenry has been brought up to see our nation as different from others, an exception in the world, uniquely moral, expanding into other lands in order to bring civilization, liberty, democracy.

That self-deception started early.

for the complete rant

http://progressive.org/media_mpzinn070106

 

[Larkinn]

I read this and could not believe it. Only a liberal would smear his country and fellow Americans on July 4th


Put away the flags

By Howard Zinn

On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.

Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?

These ways of thinking -- cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on -- have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.

National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway, Costa Rica and many more). But in a nation like ours -- huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction -- what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.

Our citizenry has been brought up to see our nation as different from others, an exception in the world, uniquely moral, expanding into other lands in order to bring civilization, liberty, democracy.

That self-deception started early.

for the complete rant

http://progressive.org/media_mpzinn070106

He is not smearing America or Americans. And he is right. Nationalism is an evil to be avoided.

 

[CockySOB]

He is not smearing America or Americans. And he is right. Nationalism is an evil to be avoided.

Care to explain why? The reason I ask is that one of the recommendations of the Iraq Study Group was that pulling US forces out of Iraq would enable the Iraqis to unite the various factions under a national identity free from foreign intervention. It would seem to me that nationalism can be a strong unifying force to help various ethnic, religious and political factions to unite in common cause.

 

[MontanaJack]

Doesn't sound like much fun to me. I was planning on setting off some fire crackers near to some conservative crackers, and watch them scurrying for their mammas while screaming "the muslims is coming, the muslims is coming" "help me ma, the muslims is coming".

Fun times.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Care to explain why? The reason I ask is that one of the recommendations of the Iraq Study Group was that pulling US forces out of Iraq would enable the Iraqis to unite the various factions under a national identity free from foreign intervention. It would seem to me that nationalism can be a strong unifying force to help various ethnic, religious and political factions to unite in common cause.

It is bad cause it involves the US. We, being evil, nazi wanna be world conquers should be ashamed we feel good about our country.

 

[Larkinn]

Care to explain why? The reason I ask is that one of the recommendations of the Iraq Study Group was that pulling US forces out of Iraq would enable the Iraqis to unite the various factions under a national identity free from foreign intervention. It would seem to me that nationalism can be a strong unifying force to help various ethnic, religious and political factions to unite in common cause.

Nice catch. You are right that it was a generalization because, usually, it is bad. However it can serve a purpose to tie people together and give them a sense of unity. This can be helpful on both an individual level (giving an individual a sense of identity hence making them a more healthy person) or on a collective level (making people not want to bomb each other).

However I've thought a lot about this and the middle ground is very very hard to get at. After all, nationalism is essentially saying "we are the best"...implying that other countries are inferior to you. Once you go that far, then it causes a few problems I think...people like Retiredgysgt equate any criticism with "hatred" of that country. People treat citizens from other countries as inferior to citizens from ones own country (hence why we are ok with letting 70k Sudanese get massacred a year, but 3,000 Americans dying over 4 years is a national tragedy that as a collective society we just can't cry enough about). It is basically a thinly veiled form of racism...and if you can have it tie together a country without it getting to "rah rah rah, we are the best" as it does in so many countries, than all well and good...but i think it often does lead to that. Notice how dictators often appeal to a nationalistic sentiment to gain popularity...

It is bad cause it involves the US. We, being evil, nazi wanna be world conquers should be ashamed we feel good about our country.

Don't speak for me. You know nothing about me and whenever you generalize me, you look like a tool.

 

[mattskramer]

Nice catch. You are right that it was a generalization because, usually, it is bad. However it can serve a purpose to tie people together and give them a sense of unity. This can be helpful on both an individual level (giving an individual a sense of identity hence making them a more healthy person) or on a collective level (making people not want to bomb each other).

However I've thought a lot about this and the middle ground is very very hard to get at. After all, nationalism is essentially saying "we are the best"...implying that other countries are inferior to you. Once you go that far, then it causes a few problems I think...people like Retiredgysgt equate any criticism with "hatred" of that country. People treat citizens from other countries as inferior to citizens from ones own country (hence why we are ok with letting 70k Sudanese get massacred a year, but 3,000 Americans dying over 4 years is a national tragedy that as a collective society we just can't cry enough about). It is basically a thinly veiled form of racism...and if you can have it tie together a country without it getting to "rah rah rah, we are the best" as it does in so many countries, than all well and good...but i think it often does lead to that. Notice how dictators often appeal to a nationalistic sentiment to gain popularity...



Don't speak for me. You know nothing about me and whenever you generalize me, you look like a tool.

Practically everything should be taken in moderation. To some degree, nationalism is a good thing. Taken to the extreme, nationalism is a bad thing.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#Extremism

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia#Xenophobia_in_History

 

[Bern80]

Practically everything should be taken in moderation. To some degree, nationalism is a good thing. Taken to the extreme, nationalism is a bad thing.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#Extremism

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia#Xenophobia_in_History

The link shows it seems that there are many different typs of nationalism. How the author defines nationalism (this dangerous arrogance) and simple pride in one's country are clearly different things.

Of course the other does nothing to show that what he's saying is even remotely accurate.

 

[Annie]

The link shows it seems that there are many different typs of nationalism. How the author defines nationalism (this dangerous arrogance) and simple pride in one's country are clearly different things.

Of course the other does nothing to show that what he's saying is even remotely accurate.

Yes, many have problems with the definitions between 'nationalism' and 'patriotism.' Nationalism is where one gets the idea that they belong to a superior country or culture. Think most of Europe prior to WWI or Islam, though they do not have a 'nation' per se.

 

[mattskramer]

Yes, many have problems with the definitions between 'nationalism' and 'patriotism.' Nationalism is where one gets the idea that they belong to a superior country or culture. Think most of Europe prior to WWI or Islam, though they do not have a 'nation' per se.

When I hear “Nationalism” the first nation that comes to mind is Germany – particularly when it was ruled by Hitler. Isn’t that an example of extreme nationalism?

 

[Annie]

When I hear “Nationalism” the first nation that comes to mind is Germany – particularly when it was ruled by Hitler. Isn’t that an example of extreme nationalism?

Very much so, both nationalism and racism to the nth degree.

 

[Edward]

He is not smearing America or Americans. And he is right. Nationalism is an evil to be avoided.

Of course he isn't. He is demonstrating real patriotism and it's the kind that should be commended. The kind that denounces any form of nationalism for what it is. We can believe in and support the ideals of being American that are proper and correct without having to support those things which are by definition not moral or right and which often find their way into our national conscience. These are the evils that should be rooted out and condemned. The kind that justifies wars of offense, the use of nuclear weapons on civilian populations in order to save the lives of American soldiers, that justify the removal of Native Americans from their lands and even in saying this it is by way of condemning one of the people Democrats look to as having founded the modern day Democratic Party. I am speaking of none other than Andrew Jackson who defied the Marshall court and drove Native Americans from their lands at gunpoint in order to move them to the other side of the Mississippi. In doing this he said speaking of Marshall, "he has made his ruling, now let him enforce it." That said, we must not let patriotism become blind nationalism or pride in our own political party blind us to the faults of our nation and our leaders and if we do then we have lost any claim to being right or to being moral. This is true today as well. The real patriot must stand up and denounce the immoral, unlawful and inappropriate actions of our nation.

 

[Larkinn]

Practically everything should be taken in moderation. To some degree, nationalism is a good thing. Taken to the extreme, nationalism is a bad thing.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#Extremism

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia#Xenophobia_in_History

Yeah...but considering how often it is taken to the extreme and how few people really do engage in it moderately, I find it is (except in cases like Iraq where it is necessary to tie a people together) generally negative. Even in the US I'm not a fan of it and shy away from nationalistic stuff.

 

[red states rule]

He is not smearing America or Americans. And he is right. Nationalism is an evil to be avoided.

I am well aware most libs hate their country - this nut is nothing new

 

[red states rule]

Doesn't sound like much fun to me. I was planning on setting off some fire crackers near to some conservative crackers, and watch them scurrying for their mammas while screaming "the muslims is coming, the muslims is coming" "help me ma, the muslims is coming".

Fun times.

You would have more fun by burning a US flag

 

[Larkinn]

I am well aware most libs hate their country - this nut is nothing new

Yay more lies. What a surprise coming from you rsr.

 

[Superlative]

I am well aware most libs hate their country - this nut is nothing new

You would have more fun by burning a US flag

Is this what you do when you are frustrated that everyone else actually read the article, and they disagree with your interpretation?

The last line was the authors whole point.

We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation.

It would be nice if you werent an example of why he wrote it.

But sadly, Im sure that escapes you.

 

[red states rule]

Yay more lies. What a surprise coming from you rsr.

July 4th is the perfect day for the left to smear Amercia

 

[red states rule]

Is this what you do when you are frustrated that everyone else actually read the article, and they disagree with your interpretation?

The last line was the authors whole point.





It would be nice if you werent an example of why he wrote it.

But sadly, Im sure that escapes you.

Today, the left has to see examples of real patriotism that does not include calls for the impeachment of Pres Bush or the surrender to terrorists in Iraq

 

[red states rule]

Not to be outdone - the NY Slimes has to pour cold water on the 4th of July


Looking Outward on the Fourth

Published: July 4, 2007
This is a working day in the rest of the world, and, for that matter, a working day in the middle of the working week. The Fourth of July, a day that is central to our sense of our own history, will pass uncapitalized around the rest of the globe. It’s a local holiday, after all, nevermind how large our idea of local may be.

But the idea of freedom is not local. It is universal. Even in these very difficult times, four years deep into a war that has turned much of the world against this country, when some political leaders seek to arrogate the idea of freedom as their own political preserve, the universal freedom described in the Declaration of Independence remains a fundamental truth.

Our own domestic history has made it clear how deeply acculturated that original idea of freedom really was, but also how difficult it has been, and still is, to win political and economic freedom for every American. The desire for freedom is part of human nature. But what matters as much as the principle of freedom is the practice of it.

Ideas have a way of recommending themselves by the behavior of the men and women who hold them, and this is no less true of nations. The question isn’t simply whether we can project our ideal of freedom around the world. The question is whether, by who we are and how we behave, we can make the freedom that animates us compelling to others.

The country looks inward on the Fourth of July — not in introspection, but in an easy, comfortable sense of historical gratification. Yet this is a good day to look outward as well.

It is a day to ask how good a job — from the world’s perspective — we are doing living up to the principles enunciated in the Declaration of Independence, whether we have done enough to make those sonorous old rights seem like more than a limited case in a limited argument. The answer is more equivocal than we like to believe. But the ideal is one that must drive us all.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/04/opinion/04wed2.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin