A few questions for the fundies

[Taz]

I've already agreed that there are people with greater authority than me. But they are still answerable to me. Like Trump, if I don'y like what he does, I can vote against him and help defeat him. You haven't shown that god isn't answerable to me or possible someone above him. If I don't like what your picture of god is with the bible and all that, I'll simply not believe in that god, which in a very minority position anyways. So god IS answerable to me.

Plus whatever Fort says.

You've taken a first, very small step. Now you need to move beyond your limited thought that the God who created man is somehow accountable to His creation. You can pretend to not believe all you want, but ultimately you'll answer to Him. Then you can try to reason that He should answer to you.

I've already answered him, I laughed and told him that a murdering, raping god was not something that I could believe really exists, so POOF, he's gone. After this, there are no more repercussions from the god of the bible, because ultimately, it only exists if you let it exist and dominate you. And now it has no power over me.

You'll find out.

I think it's more like YOU'LL find out that it was all a myth. Anyways, we're all going to the same place when we die.

And anyways, if I get judged by god's standards, I'm good to go. We all are.

Keep believing that. It won't help, but I'm sure you'll be able to convince Him that you have authority to judge Him. Just keep denying that He exists.

I'm agnostic, I don't deny the possibility of a god, just simply see no real proof at this time, but am willing to change my mind given real proof either way. Which is another reason why I first came to this forum, looking for proof/answers. So far, a lot of talk, but no real proof yet. It appears that people's faith in god is based on nothing really. Which is also quite fascinating.

 

[Meriweather]

Ya, but you're saying "I did not say they were not real. I said the accounts are stories." So you think the stories are real.

As for stomping on the bible, I'm trying to understand why they would write about a murdering, raping god or orders people to kill their children... if they are trying to convey a overall message of goodness... No stomping necessary. You see stomping because I hit right to the core of the bible, and that makes you feel really uncomfortable, and it shakes up your fantasy world a little too much.

The core of the Bible is missed through preconceived notions, built though twenty-first modern man lens. I see stomping (rudeness) because that is what is happening. The difference between Christians and atheists is that atheists remain in twenty-first century atheist interpretation while most Christians go back to the time the account was written, and study the culture back then, the themes, languages, history etc.

People who are not Christians don't need to enter the Bible, any more than those of us not of Native American cultures have no need to enter their Holy Lands. We may understands those lands through our own eyes, through geological and ecosystem studies, but we do not understand them through the eyes of the culture and the people who live in and practice that culture. Nor do atheists understand the Christian or Jewish culture.

The difference between Jewish culture and Christian culture is that Jews believe that are to be a people set apart and while they don't forbid outsiders from entering in, they are, in a fashion, discouraged. The Christian culture is open and welcoming--but I do not think it is too much to ask outsiders entering in to be respectful and willing to listen to us rather than dumping their trash onto our Holy ground.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm agnostic, I don't deny the possibility of a god, just simply see no real proof at this time, but am willing to change my mind given real proof either way. Which is another reason why I first came to this forum, looking for proof/answers. So far, a lot of talk, but no real proof yet. It appears that people's faith in god is based on nothing really. Which is also quite fascinating.

Faith is often based on personal experiences that match or are similar to experiences of others--including the experiences of our ancestors. This stems from a belief that our make-up is physical body, physical mind, and spirit/soul (the essential individual). Those who have no faith in one's spirit, will have no faith in a greater Spirit.

Looking for proof (physical evidence) of spirit and God can be compared to looking for a living fish in a rock. There is God, and there are fish, but it requires one to look for each in the right place and in the right way.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I do not understand God's motivation other than He will not forever tolerate sin and rebellion

Which you use to explain all of this. Which means you do, in fact, claim to know and understand god's motivation. It's this sort of doublespeak that religiois charlatans are famous for.

"I dont know why he ate the last of the chips, other than knowing he was hungry!"

Gibberish....

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It fascinates me that you spent so much time and effort claiming you have power and authority over someone you claim you don't believe in.

Because he was granting your points and showing that , even if your points are granted, what you are saying is STILL absurd. You should spend some time thinking about that instead of posting goofy things like what I just quoted.

 

[Taz]

Ya, but you're saying "I did not say they were not real. I said the accounts are stories." So you think the stories are real.

As for stomping on the bible, I'm trying to understand why they would write about a murdering, raping god or orders people to kill their children... if they are trying to convey a overall message of goodness... No stomping necessary. You see stomping because I hit right to the core of the bible, and that makes you feel really uncomfortable, and it shakes up your fantasy world a little too much.

The core of the Bible is missed through preconceived notions, built though twenty-first modern man lens. I see stomping (rudeness) because that is what is happening. The difference between Christians and atheists is that atheists remain in twenty-first century atheist interpretation while most Christians go back to the time the account was written, and study the culture back then, the themes, languages, history etc.

People who are not Christians don't need to enter the Bible, any more than those of us not of Native American cultures have no need to enter their Holy Lands. We may understands those lands through our own eyes, through geological and ecosystem studies, but we do not understand them through the eyes of the culture and the people who live in and practice that culture. Nor do atheists understand the Christian or Jewish culture.

The difference between Jewish culture and Christian culture is that Jews believe that are to be a people set apart and while they don't forbid outsiders from entering in, they are, in a fashion, discouraged. The Christian culture is open and welcoming--but I do not think it is too much to ask outsiders entering in to be respectful and willing to listen to us rather than dumping their trash onto our Holy ground.

Not all Christians are major goalpost movers like you, some, even a lot, take the bible literally.

Atheists can understand the Jewish and Christians cultures, that's why they're atheists. Plus, the bible isn't that hard to understand, because everyone has their own meaning to the stories, so anyone can make anything up, just like you do.

If dumping trash is pointing out that your central being in the bible is a murdering rapist who orders people to kill their first born... Then so be it. There is a lot of trash in that book to dump.

 

[Taz]

I'm agnostic, I don't deny the possibility of a god, just simply see no real proof at this time, but am willing to change my mind given real proof either way. Which is another reason why I first came to this forum, looking for proof/answers. So far, a lot of talk, but no real proof yet. It appears that people's faith in god is based on nothing really. Which is also quite fascinating.

Faith is often based on personal experiences that match or are similar to experiences of others--including the experiences of our ancestors. This stems from a belief that our make-up is physical body, physical mind, and spirit/soul (the essential individual). Those who have no faith in one's spirit, will have no faith in a greater Spirit.

Looking for proof (physical evidence) of spirit and God can be compared to looking for a living fish in a rock. There is God, and there are fish, but it requires one to look for each in the right place and in the right way.

"Those who have no faith in one's spirit, will have no faith in a greater Spirit. " You're wrong again. Even though agnostic, I see the soul as something that could re-incarnate over and over, and there is actual proof that this may be the case. it's not completely conclusive, but pretty close.

 

[Meriweather]

Not all Christians are major goalpost movers like you, some, even a lot, take the bible literally.

Atheists can understand the Jewish and Christians cultures, that's why they're atheists. Plus, the bible isn't that hard to understand, because everyone has their own meaning to the stories, so anyone can make anything up, just like you do.

If dumping trash is pointing out that your central being in the bible is a murdering rapist who orders people to kill their first born... Then so be it. There is a lot of trash in that book to dump.

The only way pointing out original intent is "moving goalposts" is in returning them to their original positions after someone else moved them. As I pointed out before both fundamentalists and atheists use a literal interpretation of the Bible--and come to conclusions that are polar opposites. Fundamentalists are Christian and are respectful of both the Bible and God (Christian Holy Ground).

No one is saying atheists cannot understand another culture. It can be pointed out that if Christianity/Judaism is not someone's culture, it is as uncouth, boorish, and insolent rude to trash its Holy Ground as it is to trash Native American Holy Ground.

In this case, you are the visitor to the Bible--and Christians welcome you. We, like any other people, expect respect, and it is not too much to ask. When outsiders enter in, it should be with an interest to learn about that culture, its teachings, and its people, and not with an intent to demolish and take over.

 

[Taz]

Not all Christians are major goalpost movers like you, some, even a lot, take the bible literally.

Atheists can understand the Jewish and Christians cultures, that's why they're atheists. Plus, the bible isn't that hard to understand, because everyone has their own meaning to the stories, so anyone can make anything up, just like you do.

If dumping trash is pointing out that your central being in the bible is a murdering rapist who orders people to kill their first born... Then so be it. There is a lot of trash in that book to dump.

The only way pointing out original intent is "moving goalposts" is in returning them to their original positions after someone else moved them. As I pointed out before both fundamentalists and atheists use a literal interpretation of the Bible--and come to conclusions that are polar opposites. Fundamentalists are Christian and are respectful of both the Bible and God (Christian Holy Ground).

No one is saying atheists cannot understand another culture. It can be pointed out that if Christianity/Judaism is not someone's culture, it is as uncouth, boorish, and insolent rude to trash its Holy Ground as it is to trash Native American Holy Ground.

In this case, you are the visitor to the Bible--and Christians welcome you. We, like any other people, expect respect, and it is not too much to ask. When outsiders enter in, it should be with an interest to learn about that culture, its teachings, and its people, and not with an intent to demolish and take over.

I went to sunday school, and to a catholic school growing up, ... so don't tell me that I'm an outsider.

So what exactly am I being uncouth about? Pointing out that the god of the bible drowned nearly all of humanity on purpose? Or simply am I making you uncomfortable by talking about what's written in the bible?

 

[Meriweather]

Those who have no faith in one's spirit, will have no faith in a greater Spirit. " You're wrong again. Even though agnostic, I see the soul as something that could re-incarnate over and over, and there is actual proof that this may be the case. it's not completely conclusive, but pretty close.

What are some of your specific beliefs in reincarnation? I've heard various ones.

 

[Taz]

Those who have no faith in one's spirit, will have no faith in a greater Spirit. " You're wrong again. Even though agnostic, I see the soul as something that could re-incarnate over and over, and there is actual proof that this may be the case. it's not completely conclusive, but pretty close.

What are some of your specific beliefs in reincarnation? I've heard various ones.

Like I said, that a soul gets re-incarnated again and again. Maybe part of one large soul, i.e., the bright light people see, and that some people call god. There are various examples on the net of young kids knowing people in neighbourhoods half way across the world who can describe everything and everyone in it... People born knowing how to play music... Like I say, nothing yet definite I would say, but a very good possibility. And it makes sense to me more than any other explanation of death...

 

[Meriweather]

I went to sunday school, and to a catholic school growing up, ... so don't tell me that I'm an outsider.

So what exactly am I being uncouth about? Pointing out that the god of the bible drowned nearly all of humanity on purpose? Or simply am I making you uncomfortable by talking about what's written in the bible?

If you left, then you are now an outsider unless you are of the mind that, "Once a Catholic always a Catholic." In that case you may be guilty of heresy, because it is not Catholic teaching that God is a murdering rapist.

I am not all uncomfortable about what is written in the Bible. When questions come up, I return to the intent of the original author and the culture of the original audience. I study Rabbis and Early Church Fathers and learn from their commentary. It is not Catholic teaching that everyone can interpret the Bible for oneself with no additional teaching or input. That idea came from Protestants.

You are not a good mind reader (none of us are). From my perspective, it is atheists who seem troubled by the Bible and many of its stories, and one of the reasons they do not believe. All I am saying that understanding the author's original intent and the people the author was addressing adds to and broadens any perspective.

 

[Taz]

I went to sunday school, and to a catholic school growing up, ... so don't tell me that I'm an outsider.

So what exactly am I being uncouth about? Pointing out that the god of the bible drowned nearly all of humanity on purpose? Or simply am I making you uncomfortable by talking about what's written in the bible?

If you left, then you are now an outsider unless you are of the mind that, "Once a Catholic always a Catholic." In that case you may be guilty of heresy, because it is not Catholic teaching that God is a murdering rapist.

I am not all uncomfortable about what is written in the Bible. When questions come up, I return to the intent of the original author and the culture of the original audience. I study Rabbis and Early Church Fathers and learn from their commentary. It is not Catholic teaching that everyone can interpret the Bible for oneself with no additional teaching or input. That idea came from Protestants.

You are not a good mind reader (none of us are). From my perspective, it is atheists who seem troubled by the Bible and many of its stories, and one of the reasons they do not believe. All I am saying that understanding the author's original intent and the people the author was addressing adds to and broadens any perspective.

"it is not Catholic teaching that God is a murdering rapist. " Sure it is, God drowned them all in a flood, it says so in CHAPTER ONE! And they teach that as well...

" All I am saying that understanding the author's original intent and the people the author was addressing adds to and broadens any perspective". So what was the reason to use a story about a murdering raping god?

 

[Meriweather]

Like I said, that a soul gets re-incarnated again and again. Maybe part of one large soul, i.e., the bright light people see, and that some people call god. There are various examples on the net of young kids knowing people in neighbourhoods half way across the world who can describe everything and everyone in it... People born knowing how to play music... Like I say, nothing yet definite I would say, but a very good possibility. And it makes sense to me more than any other explanation of death...

Then your belief seems to be that each soul has its own dimension, and it returns, as a whole, to a different body. The other understanding I was taught is that spirit is permeable in that spirits can merge together and then re-emerge as entirely different and unique entities--i.e. spirits of birds, humans, and other animals merge together and then new spirits re-emerge to return to earth as birds, humans or other animals.

 

[Meriweather]

"it is not Catholic teaching that God is a murdering rapist. " Sure it is, God drowned them all in a flood, it says so in CHAPTER ONE! And they teach that as well...

" All I am saying that understanding the author's original intent and the people the author was addressing adds to and broadens any perspective". So what was the reason to use a story about a murdering raping god?

I've already gone over this, but I will try again. The original author and his audience come from a perspective that a good, just, and loving God created a good world. They saw humans as making an evil mess of it all. Where was goodness? Where was justice? Where was love? Bible literalists see God as sending a flood and starting over.

I've read Jewish commentary that points out several things: First, the Bible states that after God separated land and water, the entire globe was never again covered with water. They see in the actual account that mountains could not be seen through the rain, but after the rain stopped, mountains could be seen again.

Another commentary is that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Thus, either every natural disaster today is designed and sent by God to a precise place and purpose, or yesterday's Great Flood was also a natural disaster. What happens after natural disasters? People take stock of themselves and what they have been doing. The account of The Great Flood was written with this hindsight.

Next, what is your experience of God? Did God murder one of your family members? Did He rape another?

Look, you are asking me to sum up decades of study in an online post. How many decades of study did you undertake before reaching your conclusion? Or, did you read the story once, decide you had perfect understanding of what happened thousands of years ago, and jump to a conclusion to fit a personal agenda? That is okay. Some feel they need a good reason to turn from any childhood teaching. In that way I feel we may be quite similar. I chose one direction, you chose another.

 

[JoeMoma]

Actually, if you like, religious people are deluded and living in a fantasy world which today, is STANDARD behavior. Nobody would consider that "normal", because let's face it, it's not.

If by "nobody" you mean "everyone" who understands standard english and common concepts.


The fact that you disagree with religious people is utterly irrelevant to the conversation we are having about "normal".


What you are doing is demonstrating your own version of irrationality.

If it's "normal" to be religious, then it's "normal" for Muslims to chop off a thief's hand. Ummm... no, not normal.

If in the society in question, that is supported by the majority of the people, then yes, that is what "normal" means.



YOu are unable to distinguish between admitting that something is "normal" and supporting it.


That is you being very, very irrational.


And being completely honest here, it looks from here like your problem is hatred and bigotry against Christians.



That is causing you to be unable to be rational about this simple issue.

You’re simply having a hard time accepting that normal isn’t what you thought it meant.

And that is you still being irrational.



normal

[nawr-muh l]

• Examples
• Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
adjective
1.
conforming to the standard or the common type





For you to say shit like, most people are irrational, and you are different and normal,



And to deny the truth when it is clearly presented to you.


Is you being completely irrational.



Driven by your bigotry and hate.

Normal is another word for perpendicular.

 

[hadit]

You've taken a first, very small step. Now you need to move beyond your limited thought that the God who created man is somehow accountable to His creation. You can pretend to not believe all you want, but ultimately you'll answer to Him. Then you can try to reason that He should answer to you.

I've already answered him, I laughed and told him that a murdering, raping god was not something that I could believe really exists, so POOF, he's gone. After this, there are no more repercussions from the god of the bible, because ultimately, it only exists if you let it exist and dominate you. And now it has no power over me.

You'll find out.

I think it's more like YOU'LL find out that it was all a myth. Anyways, we're all going to the same place when we die.

And anyways, if I get judged by god's standards, I'm good to go. We all are.

Keep believing that. It won't help, but I'm sure you'll be able to convince Him that you have authority to judge Him. Just keep denying that He exists.

I'm agnostic, I don't deny the possibility of a god, just simply see no real proof at this time, but am willing to change my mind given real proof either way. Which is another reason why I first came to this forum, looking for proof/answers. So far, a lot of talk, but no real proof yet. It appears that people's faith in god is based on nothing really. Which is also quite fascinating.

The problem here is that God will give evidence to those who genuinely look for Him and ask. BUT, that evidence is usually something that only that person can verify, thus leaving others who demand evidence wanting.

I often ask agnostics just what evidence they will accept. If God shows you Himself, but in a way that only you experience and that your fellow agnostics mock and impugn, what would you do?

 

[hadit]

I do not understand God's motivation other than He will not forever tolerate sin and rebellion

Which you use to explain all of this. Which means you do, in fact, claim to know and understand god's motivation. It's this sort of doublespeak that religiois charlatans are famous for.

"I dont know why he ate the last of the chips, other than knowing he was hungry!"

Gibberish....

"Why did he eat the last of the chips"?

He said he was hungry.

"You can't possibly know why he ate them!"

I can claim to know God's motivation if He tells me why He did it. Claiming to know all of the mind of God, however, is ludicrous.

 

[hadit]

It fascinates me that you spent so much time and effort claiming you have power and authority over someone you claim you don't believe in.

Because he was granting your points and showing that , even if your points are granted, what you are saying is STILL absurd. You should spend some time thinking about that instead of posting goofy things like what I just quoted.

No one has shown how and why a creator is accountable to his creation. Perhaps you could endeavor to do so?

 

[RWNJ]

I've already answered him, I laughed and told him that a murdering, raping god was not something that I could believe really exists, so POOF, he's gone. After this, there are no more repercussions from the god of the bible, because ultimately, it only exists if you let it exist and dominate you. And now it has no power over me.

You'll find out.

I think it's more like YOU'LL find out that it was all a myth. Anyways, we're all going to the same place when we die.

And anyways, if I get judged by god's standards, I'm good to go. We all are.

Keep believing that. It won't help, but I'm sure you'll be able to convince Him that you have authority to judge Him. Just keep denying that He exists.

I'm agnostic, I don't deny the possibility of a god, just simply see no real proof at this time, but am willing to change my mind given real proof either way. Which is another reason why I first came to this forum, looking for proof/answers. So far, a lot of talk, but no real proof yet. It appears that people's faith in god is based on nothing really. Which is also quite fascinating.

The problem here is that God will give evidence to those who genuinely look for Him and ask. BUT, that evidence is usually something that only that person can verify, thus leaving others who demand evidence wanting.

I often ask agnostics just what evidence they will accept. If God shows you Himself, but in a way that only you experience and that your fellow agnostics mock and impugn, what would you do?

There were those who actually witnessed the miracles of Christ and still rejected him. It's not that the evidence is lacking. It is simply the fact that some people cannot let go of their sinful pride and admit that they just aren't good enough. And that's why they'll go to Hell. The sin of pride. It was also the Devil's downfall, so he's in good company. No one will be able to stand before God and say that they didn't know. No one.