A discussion on the stability of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS) and its consequences

[abu afak]

Giant iceberg blocks scientists’ study of ‘Doomsday Glacier’​

February 2, 2022 -AP

Giant iceberg blocks scientists' study of 'Doomsday Glacier'

Teams of scientists sailing to Antarctica's Thwaites Glacier, nicknamed the Doomsday Glacier, are having trouble getting there.

apnews.com

""Antarctica’s so-called Doomsday Glacier, nicknamed because it is huge and coming apart, is mostly thwarting an international effort to figure out how dangerously vulnerable it is.

A large iceberg broke off the deteriorating Thwaites glacier and, along with sea ice, it is blocking two research ships with dozens of scientists from examining how fast its crucial ice shelf is falling apart.

Scientists from around the world are part of a multi-year $50 million international effort to study the Florida-sized glacier by land, sea and below for the brief time the remote ice is reachable during the Antarctic summer.
Plans to examine the glacier’s crucial ice shelf haven’t been stopped but are sidetracked a bit, officials said.
This was the last of three international scientific expeditions aimed at the vulnerable ice shelf, said British Antarctic Survey geophysicist Rob Larter, chief scientist of the first research mission.

New York University environmental scientist David Holland, who planned to drill deep through the Thwaites ice shelf to measure the water’s warmth below it, is achingly close but not quite there.

Improvising, Holland decamped at the nearby Dotson ice shelf to do his research where no human had been before. He’s hoping that along that blinding white ice and its rugged frozen cliffs he can learn about the unseen warm ocean water nibbling away at both Dotson and Thwaites from below...

`

 

[ding]

Giant iceberg blocks scientists’ study of ‘Doomsday Glacier’​

February 2, 2022 -AP

Giant iceberg blocks scientists' study of 'Doomsday Glacier'

Teams of scientists sailing to Antarctica's Thwaites Glacier, nicknamed the Doomsday Glacier, are having trouble getting there.

apnews.com

""Antarctica’s so-called Doomsday Glacier, nicknamed because it is huge and coming apart, is mostly thwarting an international effort to figure out how dangerously vulnerable it is.

A large iceberg broke off the deteriorating Thwaites glacier and, along with sea ice, it is blocking two research ships with dozens of scientists from examining how fast its crucial ice shelf is falling apart.

Scientists from around the world are part of a multi-year $50 million international effort to study the Florida-sized glacier by land, sea and below for the brief time the remote ice is reachable during the Antarctic summer.
Plans to examine the glacier’s crucial ice shelf haven’t been stopped but are sidetracked a bit, officials said.
This was the last of three international scientific expeditions aimed at the vulnerable ice shelf, said British Antarctic Survey geophysicist Rob Larter, chief scientist of the first research mission.

New York University environmental scientist David Holland, who planned to drill deep through the Thwaites ice shelf to measure the water’s warmth below it, is achingly close but not quite there.

Improvising, Holland decamped at the nearby Dotson ice shelf to do his research where no human had been before. He’s hoping that along that blinding white ice and its rugged frozen cliffs he can learn about the unseen warm ocean water nibbling away at both Dotson and Thwaites from below...

`

What's the temperature threshold for extensive southern hemisphere continental glaciation? Do you know?

 

[abu afak]

What's the temperature threshold for extensive southern hemisphere continental glaciation? Do you know?

Is your opinion on AGW the same as it is on Evolution/Your 'intelligent design?'
That a divine power is doing everything, and we can't change the climate NO MATTER What?
That would explain most of your pan-everything unscientific religious 'opinions.'
`

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Good. It needs to happen quick!

Go stand on the beach until we tell you that you can leave, then. Thanks.

 

[ding]

Is your opinion on AGW the same as it is on Evolution/Your 'intelligent design?'
That a divine power is doing everything, and we can't change the climate NO MATTER What?
That would explain most of your pan-everything unscientific religious 'opinions.'
`

Of course not. My opinion is that God created the universe and man arose from that creation naturally. Man is made from dust. Star dust as everything is. Or don't you understand chemical evolution?

If you are going to discuss glaciers then you should know what the temperature threshold for extensive continental glaciation is for each hemisphere.

Do you know what the temperature threshold is where extensive continental glaciation begins in the southern and norther hemispheres? Every person who claims to understand earth's climate should know this. It's fundamental stuff. Well do you know it?

 

[ding]

Let me answer for abu afak ....

No. He has no idea of the temperature threshold where extensive continental glaciation begins for either hemisphere. He doesn't even know they aren't the same threshold or why they would be different. He didn't even know there were temperature thresholds and how orbital forcing cannot cause glaciation until the earth temperatures are at or below those thresholds. He is a poser. He is ignorant of earth's climate and what drives it. He fights every attempt to learn anything about what drives the earth's climate. He is a hammer looking for a nail. Everything he sees is a nail.

Ignorance is usually insolent. This is especially true for ignorance that thinks it knows. Which is why he is so insolent with anyone who would suggest that the drivers that drove earth's fluctuating climate prior to industrialization, didn't stop at industrialization.

 

[abu afak]

Of course not. My opinion is that God created the universe and man arose from that creation naturally. Man is made from dust. Star dust as everything is. Or don't you understand chemical evolution?

If you are going to discuss glaciers then you should know what the temperature threshold for extensive continental glaciation is for each hemisphere.

Do you know what the temperature threshold is where extensive continental glaciation begins in the southern and norther hemispheres? Every person who claims to understand earth's climate should know this. It's fundamental stuff. Well do you know it?

Actually you said you believe the universe was pre-programmed by the divine thing for life.
So he wouldn't drown us or freeze us right?

And no, it is not important the exact Ocean temperature that is the breaking point for glaciers.
What's important to know as if the Ocean is warming, (it IS) and that glaciers are following that warming on balance over time: the period in question here.

Your question, OTOH, the usual demand-endless-detail fallacy/nitpicking. (and probably varies with salinity, sunlight, soot, etc)

And you didn't answer whether or not that number mattered to you at all, nor my question about whether humans can do anything that affects that air/water temp/climate.
NO answer.

You're Nothing but a juvenile last-wording Prlck/baiter, harassing people with obscure questions, but/because you are incapable of linear debate, and who himself posts No information except (a few repeated unsourced irrelevant graphs/baits) that underlies your GodDidIt RW outlook.
Which I am not going to let be a secret anymore.
two words.

`

 

[ding]

Actually you said you believe the universe was pre-programmed by the divine thing for life.
So he wouldn't drown us or freeze us right?

And no, it is not important the exact Ocean temperature that is the breaking point for glaciers.
What's important to know as if the Ocean is warming, (it IS) and that glaciers are following that warming on balance over time: the period in question here.

Your question, OTOH, the usual demand-endless-detail fallacy/nitpicking. (and probably varies with salinity, sunlight, soot, etc)

And you didn't answer whether or not that number mattered to you at all, nor my question about whether humans can do anything that affects that air/water temp/climate.
NO answer.

You're Nothing but a juvenile last-wording Prlck/baiter, harassing people with obscure questions, but/because you are incapable of linear debate, and who himself posts No information except (a few repeated unsourced irrelevant graphs/baits) that underlies your GodDidIt outlook.
Which I am not going to let be a secret anymore.
two words.

`

I wouldn't say programmed.

It's not the ocean temperature, dummy. That's how ignorant you are.

So that's no. You have no idea what the threshold is for extensive continental glaciation at each pole. In fact, if I understand you correctly, you dispute that there is even one, right?

Common sense and the geologic record tells us there actually is a threshold for extensive continental glaciation at each pole and that they are different thresholds.

See if you can figure iot out from this graph. I seriously don't think you can.

Figure F7. Cenozoic events in climate, tectonics, and biota vs. d18O and d13O in benthic foraminiferal calcite (after Zachos et al., 2001).

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-The-Zachos-et-al-2001-marine-curve-indicating-global-temperature-change-based-on_fig10_281784370

Paleontology Advent Calendar 2015: <i>Lagerstätten</i>, Climate, and Paleoecology

Cenozoic Climate Modified from Zachos et al . 2001 One of the things we take for granted in today's climate, particularly those of us fr...

jdorcutt.blogspot.com

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

 

[abu afak]

I wouldn't say programmed.

It's not the ocean temperature, dummy. That's how ignorant you are.

So that's no. You have no idea what the threshold is for extensive continental glaciation at each pole. In fact, if I understand you correctly, you dispute that there is even one, right?

Common sense and the geologic record tells us there actually is a threshold for extensive continental glaciation at each pole and that they are different thresholds.

See if you can figure iot out from this graph. I seriously don't think you can.

View attachment 606577

Figure F7. Cenozoic events in climate, tectonics, and biota vs. d18O and d13O in benthic foraminiferal calcite (after Zachos et al., 2001).

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-The-Zachos-et-al-2001-marine-curve-indicating-global-temperature-change-based-on_fig10_281784370

Paleontology Advent Calendar 2015: <i>Lagerstätten</i>, Climate, and Paleoecology

Cenozoic Climate Modified from Zachos et al . 2001 One of the things we take for granted in today's climate, particularly those of us fr...

jdorcutt.blogspot.com

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

IOW, he lost on his Bogus question (re exact ocean melt temp of glaciers) and is trying a deflecting Graph Dump.
Kinda like Sunset Timmy's inability to speak English/have a linear debate.

Two threads now he's gone to the bury em with graphics.
Ding is a TROLL and a FRAUD.


`

 

[ding]

IOW, he lost on his Bogus question (re exact ocean melt temp of glaciers) and is trying a deflecting Graph Dump.
Kinda like Sunset Timmy's inability to speak English/have a linear debate.

Two threads now he's gone to the bury em with graphics.
Ding is a TROLL and a FRAUD.


`

Everything you need to determine the thresholds for extensive continental glaciation is right here on this graph. It's simple. It's easy. But you can't do it because you don't know how.

 

[ding]

IOW, he lost on his Bogus question (re exact ocean melt temp of glaciers) and is trying a deflecting Graph Dump.
Kinda like Sunset Timmy's inability to speak English/have a linear debate.

Two threads now he's gone to the bury em with graphics.
Ding is a TROLL and a FRAUD.


`

You do realize that the polar regions having ice on them is the biggest driver of the earth's climate over the past 3 million years, right?

I mean you go on and on about them all the time. Don't you think you ought to know the temperature when ice completely disappears and isn't triggered by orbital forces? Isn't that something that you should know already?

 

[ding]

Crick can you please tell abu afuk how important this is to know?

 

[1stNickD]

Do you think those volcanoes are responsible for the warming of the global atmosphere? Of the oceans? Of sea level rise? Do you think they are somehow countering the anthropogenic CO2 in the atmosphere?

you can unwad your panties easier if you stop getting all exited and pissing yourself.

The ice has melted before and it has refrozen before. 8000 years ago people lived on what is now the bottom of the English channel. Long before the industrial revolution the ice age melted and flooded the world.. We are witnessing the last of the ice melt, nothing more, nothing less. When world leaders build their mansions on ocean front property and when climate change profiteers fly the world over in private jets, and when only western civilization is expected to sacrifice our economies, rational people know that there are dishonest motives behind the entire narrative of human cause global warming.

Crick, if you are serious about what you claim, take off all your clothes, and go live au naturel in the mountains somewhere. Don't make a fire to keep warm because that causes anthropogenic warming. I'm going to stay in my air conditioned and heated home, and drive my car to work.

 

[flacaltenn]

It's super obvious that these guys are hammers looking for nails. The politicization of science is horrible and it starts with the ones who are trying to force consensus for political purposes.

This poor excuse for a circus is over 35 years old now. The science changes like the 2100 temperature predictions have changed. And the "climate sensitivity" numbers have declined. The Warmer bible purists wont accept changes to the litany. They're still defending the ORIGINAL simplistic version of CO2 having superpowers as a GHouse gas. And blaming literally HUNDREDS of things (LITERALLY) on GWarming that now have credible OTHER explanations. Like the coral reef destruction.

So yeah -- it's a hammer for every problem approach.

I've gotten damn near everything I've posted on finding active undersea bedrock heating of the W.AntarticIceSheet pasted with disagree rep. But NEVER ONCE have any of those folks actually commentated on the new findings that I've linked to or discussed. But Crick once misrepresented a paper he found that ACTUALLY said exactly what I've been asserting.

It's a hard slog to be a GW zealot 35 years into this.

 

[flacaltenn]

What's important to know as if the Ocean is warming, (it IS) and that glaciers are following that warming on balance over time: the period in question here.

Turns out GW is not uniform. Not on the land or sea surface of this planet. And the Southern Ocean surrounding Antarctica has warmed the least. Just like the tropics and the Southern Hemi has warmed MUCH less than the Arctic and Northern Hemi.

The only temperature measurements that matter are taken at the "footers" of those glaciers resting on solid sea bedrock. The glaciers are NOT melting from above. They are resting on sea bedrock that is getting warmed by magma near the surface and accompanied by VENTS in certain areas spewing superheated water.

Here's a graph of southern ocean temperatures over the satellite period. Plotted in Excel from UAH database for 420 months of averages since 1979.

Not a lot warming in the ocean down there at all.

Now THIS is satellite magnetometer imaging of the volcanic structures below the W.Antarctic IceSheet glaciers as they meet the ocean bed

Nobody SAW this until 2005 or so.. Science changes and improves. In papers in early 2000s about the WAIS, they start out by saying "how little is known" about the footings beneath these glaciers that are accelerating towards the sea.

We know a bit more now.


.

 

[abu afak]

Turns out GW is not uniform. Not on the land or sea surface of this planet. And the Southern Ocean surrounding Antarctica has warmed the least. Just like the tropics and the Southern Hemi has warmed MUCH less than the Arctic and Northern Hemi.

The only temperature measurements that matter are taken at the "footers" of those glaciers resting on solid sea bedrock. The glaciers are NOT melting from above. They are resting on sea bedrock that is getting warmed by magma near the surface and accompanied by VENTS in certain areas spewing superheated water.

Here's a graph of southern ocean temperatures over the satellite period. Plotted in Excel from UAH database for 420 months of averages since 1979.

View attachment 606604

Not a lot warming in the ocean down there at all.

Now THIS is satellite magnetometer imaging of the volcanic structures below the W.Antarctic IceSheet glaciers as they meet the ocean bed

View attachment 606606

Nobody SAW this until 2005 or so.. Science changes and improves. In papers in early 2000s about the WAIS, they start out by saying "how little is known" about the footings beneath these glaciers that are accelerating towards the sea.

We know a bit more now..

We know it's not uniform, not even just North to South.
("The little Ice age," another Ding folly, was in fact just Northern Europe/N Atlantic. Others don't understand the term either. Your welcome)
Ding-Dong Dishonestly just put up N Hemi Only in a debate on GLOBAL warming.

Same/NO refutation for you.
So it's Signed, sealed, and delivered.. a LOSS for you clowns on Average Global temperature and running for 100 years.
Not disputed.

AND You put up an UNSOURCED graphic for one.
WillCan'tWeight just Said Posters have to link their graphs.
Don't bother, proves nothing.

Volcanic structures picture (or is that your lawn) don't prove anything either.
Ding-shlt/others would ask you how many degrees exactly did that warm the Antarctic and how many feet off the Ice mass/Glaciers, if any? LOL
`

 

[ding]

Turns out GW is not uniform.

To that point.

Comparison of Arctic and Antarctic Temperature

Let's start with the last 5000 years and then take a look at a longer period.

What can we say but the fact that the temperatures seem quite independent of each other!

Ice Cores

 

[ding]

We know it's not uniform, not even just North to South.

That's really odd because you guys plot one curve for the whole planet. Weird, huh?

 

[flacaltenn]

AND You put up an UNSOURCED graphic for one.

It's NOT unsourced. It's UAH data that you can CHECK YOURSELF.. Go look it up lazy ass. That's how science works. I gave you the SOURCE of my data.

 

[flacaltenn]

To that point.

Comparison of Arctic and Antarctic Temperature

Let's start with the last 5000 years and then take a look at a longer period.
View attachment 606622

What can we say but the fact that the temperatures seem quite independent of each other!

View attachment 606623

Ice Cores

Careful staking your bets on that comparison,. Aint no 5000 year old thermometers. Those are ice cores. And Antarctic ice is a MUCH POORER thermometer.

It's an actual precipt DESERT down there. Not much ice/decade can get built even in the most frigid conditions. So you might have 400 years in a cmeter of Antarctic ice, while Greenland ice -- that centimeter is maybe only 50 years.

So -- you're just not gonna SEE any variances under 400 or 600 years in Antarctic ice. You WILL see 100 or 200 year variations from N,Hemi ice cores.

When this started to get widely known publicly, some of the Greenland core data got "rare" on the internet. But it's still in original papers.