68 years ago today

[M14 Shooter]

Two questions and then a personal note:
1. Are civilians, that produce war goods that are used to kill the enemy, legitimate targets?
2. If those Japanese cities had cottage industries producing war materials were they legitimate targets?

In modern, total war, where civilans are part of the labor pool that creates the means to make war, civilians will die as said means are legitimate targets.
No way around it.

 

[namvet]

Two questions and then a personal note:

1. Are civilians, that produce war goods that are used to kill the enemy, legitimate targets?
2. If those Japanese cities had cottage industries producing war materials were they legitimate targets?

A personal Note. Actually, the war crime that made me the most upset was the Japanese beheading of American prisoners because they were involved in B29 raids. Japanese officers loved to use their sabers. When Japan surrendered it was imperative that America get troops in there fast to protect their Prisoners.

Hiroshima was the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. It was also a communications center, a storage point, an assembly area for troops, and was a military-industrial center powered by the mass-scale forced labour of Koreans known as hibakusha. The Hiroshima island of Edajima hosted the Navy Elite Academy. Kure, around 20 km from Hiroshima, was also known for a military port and navy factories. The famous giant warship, Yamato, was constructed in Kure. The material and labour for Kure came from Hiroshima.

Nagasaki was one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and had wide-ranging industrial importance. Ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials were manufactured there. The Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works was located there. Mitsubishi produced over 10,000 Zero fighters and the battleship Musashi.

so both military targets

 

[Unkotare]

Yes. Given the conditions actually in place at the time.
As I said: you cannot tell us why the Japanese would have announced their surrender on 8/15, had the bombs not been dropped.

I already answered your question, fool. No game time for you.

Good to see that we both know you cannot describe how or why the Japanese would have surrendered when they did, if not for the bombs.

No, we both see you want to play games, and I see that you are not worth the time. We both know you don't have the horsepower for a real discussion and you are not a legitimate interlocutor.

Go play somewhere else.

 

[Unkotare]

Two questions and then a personal note:

1. Are civilians, that produce war goods that are used to kill the enemy, legitimate targets?
2. If those Japanese cities had cottage industries producing war materials were they legitimate targets?

A personal Note. Actually, the war crime that made me the most upset was the Japanese beheading of American prisoners because they were involved in B29 raids. Japanese officers loved to use their sabers. When Japan surrendered it was imperative that America get troops in there fast to protect their Prisoners.

Hiroshima was the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. It was also a communications center, a storage point, an assembly area for troops, and was a military-industrial center powered by the mass-scale forced labour of Koreans known as hibakusha. The Hiroshima island of Edajima hosted the Navy Elite Academy. Kure, around 20 km from Hiroshima, was also known for a military port and navy factories. The famous giant warship, Yamato, was constructed in Kure. The material and labour for Kure came from Hiroshima.

Nagasaki was one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and had wide-ranging industrial importance. Ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials were manufactured there. The Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works was located there. Mitsubishi produced over 10,000 Zero fighters and the battleship Musashi.

so both military targets

So, in every German city where there might be a munitions factory or such we fire bombed the entire city with the specific goal of killing every civilian possible? I don't recall the fire bombing raids of Italy or the deliberate slaughter of civilians there to the highest degree possible, as completely as possible.

 

[Friends]

Don't ever cut my quotes short in desperation to make your point. You quote the entire thing or f*cking nothing. The only need for you to cut my quote short is you don't have the fortitude or the logic to refute it.

Japan wanted a war. They attacked Pearl Harbor in order to drag us into it with the full intention of kicking our *sses and taking over whatever portion of the US they possibly could. In the end they not only got nuked but they got beat so f*cking handily they have never since been a world power militarily.

They picked a fight and got exactly what they asked for in return. Their citizens jumped into the fray just like ours did and yes they were targets to be exterminated. They got the first punch we won devastatingly, f*ck off. They not only earned it they asked for it. Don't pick a fight if you can't handle being knocked out.

I'll address whatever part of your stupidity I feel like, douchebag. Deal with it. Japan's goal in WWII wasn't to take over America, it was to push us out of Asia so Japan could fulfill its exceedingly impractical and misleading vision of a "Co-prosperity Sphere" in East Asia. Don't bother posting if you're going to be an ignorant shit, and don't bother commenting on a difficult moral question if you are an amoral animal at best.

No, you will take my entire quote and f*cking deal with it the best your tiny mind is capable of processing.

Japan was part of the Axis power who's entire goal was the defeat of western philosophy of capitalism and freedom in favor of government rule. Japan's one entry into this alliance was to get the US into the war. That was their job. And it f*cking worked. We got in and they all lost. Because at the time we apparently had animals like me that would choose to win by any means necessary and not c*nt's like you.

How much f*cking stupid am I going to have to deal with from you? I don't have all day here.

Japanese militarism, Italian fascism, and Nazism were perfectly consistent with capitalism. Capitalism is not worth fighting for. The capitalists can hire private armies of goons if they want.

 

[gipper]

Based on...what?
Compared to... what?

Read the links and educate yourself.

"Look it up" neither supports your statement nor answers my questions.
Lay it out for me and quote the relevant sections from your sources.

In short, killing innocents for no good reason (and worse for nefarious reasons, which were the reasons Truman used), is ALWAYS immoral and something ALL Americans should condemn.

I see.
So, your statement hinges on your interpretation of 'a good reason".
Soundly argue that the nuclear bombings were morally worse than the conventional firebombings that took place throughout the 8 months prior.

My posts and the links included from well known experts clearly make my point. Sorry you can't see that.

And to your question, the firebombings were just as immoral. Purposely killing innocents in war is wrong. American politicians like to claim we as a nation are morally right, but sadly, history shows their actions are often immoral in the extreme.

 

[gipper]

Two questions and then a personal note:
1. Are civilians, that produce war goods that are used to kill the enemy, legitimate targets?
2. If those Japanese cities had cottage industries producing war materials were they legitimate targets?

In modern, total war, where civilans are part of the labor pool that creates the means to make war, civilians will die as said means are legitimate targets.
No way around it.

So, if I can summarize your point...civilians are legitimate targets for destruction because they are forced by their tyrannical government to produce war goods.

Most immoral.

Put yourself in the shoes of those Japanese people. Did they have a choice in supporting the actions of their tyrannical government or not?

 

[Unkotare]

Capitalism is not worth fighting for. .

Well, that statement certainly fits the cowardly, ignorant image you've worked so hard to establish for yourself here.

 

[Friends]

Capitalism is not worth fighting for. .

Well, that statement certainly fits the cowardly, ignorant image you've worked so hard to establish for yourself here.

Fight for it yourself you putrid little scum.

 

[Unkotare]

Capitalism is not worth fighting for. .

Well, that statement certainly fits the cowardly, ignorant image you've worked so hard to establish for yourself here.

Fight for it yourself you putrid little scum.

You prove yourself an ignorant little pussy on every thread you post on. You're pathetic.

 

[namvet]

Photos:

link

 

[Friends]

Well, that statement certainly fits the cowardly, ignorant image you've worked so hard to establish for yourself here.

Fight for it yourself you putrid little scum.

You prove yourself an ignorant little pussy on every thread you post on. You're pathetic.

How does it feel to look in the mirror and see the face of a sub human?

 

[M14 Shooter]

I already answered your question, fool. No game time for you.

Good to see that we both know you cannot describe how or why the Japanese would have surrendered when they did, if not for the bombs.

No, we both see you want to play games, and I see that you are not worth the time. We both know you don't have the horsepower for a real discussion and you are not a legitimate interlocutor.
Go play somewhere else.

All I see is you avoiding the task put to you, because you know you aren't up to it.
Says all that needs to be said.
Fool.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Read the links and educate yourself.

"Look it up" neither supports your statement nor answers my questions.
Lay it out for me and quote the relevant sections from your sources.

In short, killing innocents for no good reason (and worse for nefarious reasons, which were the reasons Truman used), is ALWAYS immoral and something ALL Americans should condemn.

I see.
So, your statement hinges on your interpretation of 'a good reason".
Soundly argue that the nuclear bombings were morally worse than the conventional firebombings that took place throughout the 8 months prior.

My posts and the links included from well known experts clearly make my point. Sorry you can't see that.

Nothing here chamges these fact that "Look it up" neither supports your statement nor answers my questions.
So, again:
Lay it out for me and quote the relevant sections from your sources.

And to your question, the firebombings were just as immoral. Purposely killing innocents in war is wrong.

Given that it cannot be avoided, you'll simply have to llearn to live with the fact that, according to your sandard, war is inherently immoral.

 

[whitehall]

The winners write the history books. Childhood propaganda is like a religious experience. We all have faith in Truman's decision because we have been indoctrinated. Truman was the living legacy to the FDR administration and nobody in the free world dares to criticize FDR. The mainstream made sure of it in the 4o's and since. Facts can be ignored when the history book writers want to play a political tune. It seems that Truman didn't have a clue. Even as Vice president he did not have access to the Atomic secret until he woke up one morning in April 1945. Truman was not equipped to make a critical decision about the use of a nuclear weapon and that was probably the plan of the democrat party when they selected the first president not to have a college education. The Japanese targets were civilians. God help us when the military strategy is to kill civilians in order to force a tyrannical regime to surrender but that's what we did.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Two questions and then a personal note:
1. Are civilians, that produce war goods that are used to kill the enemy, legitimate targets?
2. If those Japanese cities had cottage industries producing war materials were they legitimate targets?

In modern, total war, where civilans are part of the labor pool that creates the means to make war, civilians will die as said means are legitimate targets.
No way around it.

So, if I can summarize your point...civilians are legitimate targets for destruction because they are forced by their tyrannical government to produce war goods.

Rather silly interpretation of my statement.
The means of production are legitimate targets, something even you will agree with.
Within those means of production are civilians. As part of the efforts to destroy those means, there is no way to avoid the deaths of those civilains.
And, it matters not how/why those civilians are there - be they slave labor in a German ball bearing plant or Rosie the Riveter in a Kaiser shipyard.

Most immoral.

I challenge you to soundly suppot this position.

Put yourself in the shoes of those Japanese people. Did they have a choice in supporting the actions of their tyrannical government or not?

Completely irrelevant to anythig I said.

 

[Unkotare]

Nagasaki marks 68th anniversary of atomic bombing ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion

 

[jon_berzerk]

68 years ago today, on August 5, 1945, a single B-29 bomber dropped a single uranium bomb on the city of Hiroshima, Japan. 80,000 Japanese people were killed, and no Americans. By the end of 1945, approx. 30,000 more Japanese had died from injuries, starvations, and radiation.

Three days later, on August 8, a plutonium bomb was caried to Kobe, Japan. But the city was hidden by clouds, so the plane turned and flew to the alternate target, Nagasaki, and dropped it there instead. 50,000 people died from the explosion, with 20,000 more dying within a few months.

The bombing help end the war quickly, made an invasion of the Japanese home islands unnecessary, and saved millions of Japanese and American casualties that would have died in such an invasion.

68 years ago

Spoiler: Nagasaki

BOOM

 

[Friends]

The winners write the history books. Childhood propaganda is like a religious experience. We all have faith in Truman's decision because we have been indoctrinated. Truman was the living legacy to the FDR administration and nobody in the free world dares to criticize FDR. The mainstream made sure of it in the 4o's and since. Facts can be ignored when the history book writers want to play a political tune. It seems that Truman didn't have a clue. Even as Vice president he did not have access to the Atomic secret until he woke up one morning in April 1945. Truman was not equipped to make a critical decision about the use of a nuclear weapon and that was probably the plan of the democrat party when they selected the first president not to have a college education. The Japanese targets were civilians. God help us when the military strategy is to kill civilians in order to force a tyrannical regime to surrender but that's what we did.

Truman was a nitwit who started the Cold War, but Abraham Lincoln did not have a college education. I am sure there have been others.

 

[gipper]

In modern, total war, where civilans are part of the labor pool that creates the means to make war, civilians will die as said means are legitimate targets.
No way around it.

So, if I can summarize your point...civilians are legitimate targets for destruction because they are forced by their tyrannical government to produce war goods.

Rather silly interpretation of my statement.
The means of production are legitimate targets, something even you will agree with.
Within those means of production are civilians. As part of the efforts to destroy those means, there is no way to avoid the deaths of those civilains.
And, it matters not how/why those civilians are there - be they slave labor in a German ball bearing plant or Rosie the Riveter in a Kaiser shipyard.

Most immoral.

I challenge you to soundly suppot this position.

Put yourself in the shoes of those Japanese people. Did they have a choice in supporting the actions of their tyrannical government or not?

Completely irrelevant to anythig I said.

We are debating the a-bombing and fire bombing of Japanese cities. Are you claiming that all those terrible bombings were targeted at military facilities? If so, you are not informed. The American military used total war and purposely targeted civilians for destruction. If you do not see that as immoral, then nothing is immoral.