2/3 say ditch individual health care mandate

[Polk]

So you're claiming it is a tax?

Yes, I would argue that it is a tax. In terms of impact, it's no different than levying a poll tax (in the British sense of the term) and then providing a tax credit to those having health insurance.

Except that it's a tax collected by insurance companies.

Nope. If you don't have insurance, the government gets the revenue from the tax.

 

[The Rabbi]

So does the individual mandate.

So you're claiming it is a tax?

Yes, I would argue that it is a tax. In terms of impact, it's no different than levying a poll tax (in the British sense of the term) and then providing a tax credit to those having health insurance.

Pres Obama disagrees with you.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg-ofjXrXio]George and Obama debate health care taxes - YouTube[/ame]

 

[The Rabbi]

this is all easily solvable. if you dont wanna buy health insurance, then pass a law that lets people sign a waiver, the consequence is that if you need medical care, no matter how urgent or life threatening your situation is, you have to prepay for all services.

car accident, hope you can pay
heart attack, hope you can pay
stroke, hope you can pay

and if you cant, well then you dont get any treatment. oh well too bad

Why should you haev to pre-pay for every service? It will be between the patient and the provider. Kind of like how it should always be.

if its truly the free market, you should have to pay for only the services you receive, so since i dont want to pay for anything you ever get from the doctor, then you should have to pay full price for all your services.

since its already been proven that people dont pay for services they receive, this solves all problems.

It has not been proven. Except by you, who doubtless shafts anyone and everyone.

 

[Polk]

So you're claiming it is a tax?

Yes, I would argue that it is a tax. In terms of impact, it's no different than levying a poll tax (in the British sense of the term) and then providing a tax credit to those having health insurance.

Pres Obama disagrees with you.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg-ofjXrXio]George and Obama debate health care taxes - YouTube[/ame]

I don't care about political rhetoric. I care about legal realities.

 

[koshergrl]

I think it has probably been proven that progressives don't pay bills....

But thank goodness, progressives aren't all "people".

 

[Polk]

Why should you haev to pre-pay for every service? It will be between the patient and the provider. Kind of like how it should always be.

if its truly the free market, you should have to pay for only the services you receive, so since i dont want to pay for anything you ever get from the doctor, then you should have to pay full price for all your services.

since its already been proven that people dont pay for services they receive, this solves all problems.

It has not been proven. Except by you, who doubtless shafts anyone and everyone.

It has. The value of unpaid hospital bills is equal to 2% of the entire sector.

Up to $49 billion unpaid by uninsured for hospitalizations - USATODAY.com

 

[Polk]

I think it has probably been proven that progressives don't pay bills....

But thank goodness, progressives aren't all "people".

Which is why the reddest areas of the country are also the most dependent on food stamps, SSI, and Medicaid.

 

[The Rabbi]

Yes, I would argue that it is a tax. In terms of impact, it's no different than levying a poll tax (in the British sense of the term) and then providing a tax credit to those having health insurance.

Pres Obama disagrees with you.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg-ofjXrXio]George and Obama debate health care taxes - YouTube[/ame]

I don't care about political rhetoric. I care about legal realities.

OK.
The Federal Government lacks the Constitutional authority to lay such a tax. Article I Section 9

No capitation, or other direct, tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

The only exception is the income tax, which this is not.
QED. The individual mandate is unconstitutional. Since there was no severability clause in the law the rest of the law will be found unconstitutional as well.
Obamacare is dead.

 

[The Rabbi]

if its truly the free market, you should have to pay for only the services you receive, so since i dont want to pay for anything you ever get from the doctor, then you should have to pay full price for all your services.

since its already been proven that people dont pay for services they receive, this solves all problems.

It has not been proven. Except by you, who doubtless shafts anyone and everyone.

It has. The value of unpaid hospital bills is equal to 2% of the entire sector.

Up to $49 billion unpaid by uninsured for hospitalizations - USATODAY.com

That actually proves the opposite.

 

[Polk]

It has not been proven. Except by you, who doubtless shafts anyone and everyone.

It has. The value of unpaid hospital bills is equal to 2% of the entire sector.

Up to $49 billion unpaid by uninsured for hospitalizations - USATODAY.com

That actually proves the opposite.

1 out of every 50 dollars spend on health care are uninsured people sticking the public with the bill. That's a pretty sizable amount.

 

[dblack]

It has. The value of unpaid hospital bills is equal to 2% of the entire sector.

Up to $49 billion unpaid by uninsured for hospitalizations - USATODAY.com

That actually proves the opposite.

1 out of every 50 dollars spend on health care are uninsured people sticking the public with the bill. That's a pretty sizable amount.

Doesn't justify chaining us to the insurance industry by force of law.

 

[koshergrl]

I think it has probably been proven that progressives don't pay bills....

But thank goodness, progressives aren't all "people".

Which is why the reddest areas of the country are also the most dependent on food stamps, SSI, and Medicaid.

Meme. Means nothing, just another progressive slogan.

 

[Polk]

I think it has probably been proven that progressives don't pay bills....

But thank goodness, progressives aren't all "people".

Which is why the reddest areas of the country are also the most dependent on food stamps, SSI, and Medicaid.

Meme. Means nothing, just another progressive slogan.

Of course it means something. It's pretty hypocritical to decry all of these programs, while collecting the benefits.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I think it has probably been proven that progressives don't pay bills....

But thank goodness, progressives aren't all "people".

Which is why the reddest areas of the country are also the most dependent on food stamps, SSI, and Medicaid.

Meme. Means nothing, just another progressive slogan.

lol. Translation: hummunna hummunna hummunna.

 

[The Rabbi]

It has. The value of unpaid hospital bills is equal to 2% of the entire sector.

Up to $49 billion unpaid by uninsured for hospitalizations - USATODAY.com

That actually proves the opposite.

1 out of every 50 dollars spend on health care are uninsured people sticking the public with the bill. That's a pretty sizable amount.

So that's 49 dollars that are not stuck.
The claim was "people don't pay their bills." This disproves it.

I see no rebuttal to my showing that Obamacare's penalty as a tax is a fail. And as a penalty it is also a fail.

 

[The Rabbi]

Which is why the reddest areas of the country are also the most dependent on food stamps, SSI, and Medicaid.

Meme. Means nothing, just another progressive slogan.

Of course it means something. It's pretty hypocritical to decry all of these programs, while collecting the benefits.

What makes it hypocritical? Did you oppose the war in Iraq? Did you continue to pay taxes which also funded the war? That would make you a hypocrite.
Opposing a program while benefitting from it is not hypocrisy. Another lib myth down the crapper.

 

[saveliberty]

everyone pays taxes. taxes are not only federal, but state and local. unless you live off the land in a tent on public land, you will pay some form of taxes in your life time. so fail for you

every citizen with a SS card has access to SS. so fail for you

medicaid is a great example, since i have to pay for even though i will never use it. so why arent you railing again paying for that?

Nope, farmers are exempt from sales tax. All taxes have exceptions.

So does the individual mandate.

Link. Paying a penalty tax to the IRS hardly qualifies.

 

[Listening]

this is all easily solvable. if you dont wanna buy health insurance, then pass a law that lets people sign a waiver, the consequence is that if you need medical care, no matter how urgent or life threatening your situation is, you have to prepay for all services.

car accident, hope you can pay
heart attack, hope you can pay
stroke, hope you can pay

and if you cant, well then you dont get any treatment. oh well too bad

Smartest thing you've said yet.

Putting aside the sarcasm......there are some potentially good systems that would allow people to taylor their willingness to take risks (with their fortunes) that the market could satisfy.

My current HSA now has a balance that would probably handle a heart attack even if I didn't have insurance (average cost).

And we all get to chose....the American way.....

Most, including myself, won't go without. But it won't be forced on me.

What the market has not been allowed to do (but it is changing) is get health insurance to those who want it at prices they can afford.

Obamacare isn't necessary.

 

[Syphon]

this is all easily solvable. if you dont wanna buy health insurance, then pass a law that lets people sign a waiver, the consequence is that if you need medical care, no matter how urgent or life threatening your situation is, you have to prepay for all services.

car accident, hope you can pay
heart attack, hope you can pay
stroke, hope you can pay

and if you cant, well then you dont get any treatment. oh well too bad

Smartest thing you've said yet.

Putting aside the sarcasm......there are some potentially good systems that would allow people to taylor their willingness to take risks (with their fortunes) that the market could satisfy.

My current HSA now has a balance that would probably handle a heart attack even if I didn't have insurance (average cost).

And we all get to chose....the American way.....

Most, including myself, won't go without. But it won't be forced on me.

What the market has not been allowed to do (but it is changing) is get health insurance to those who want it at prices they can afford.

Obamacare isn't necessary.

so your actually advocating for a system in which people are left to die because they are poor? great, the right finally shows their true colors.

$11,000 hospital bill from the emergency department
$11,000 hospital bill from the emergency department

Physical assessment by the emergency resident physician came quickly followed by an EKG, chest x-ray, CT scan of the chest (“they said I might have had a blood clot&#8221, and lab, specifically including cardiac enzymes. Mike said his only complaint was it took over five hours before he heard any news.
“Everything looks good,” said the resident. “Let me run all this past my attending and see if we can get you home.” Mike said by then his pain had been gone for hours and he relaxed by receiving the go.
When the resident returned, however, Mike said he knew something was wrong.
“Sorry Mike, but my attending thinks you need to stay for a chest pain evaluation, “ stated the resident with no hint of emotion. “Your first cardiac enzyme was normal, but he thinks you need another evaluation in six hours followed by a stress test, “ he continued.



hope your sitting on $11k if you have to go to the emergency room.

or you could just file bankruptcy
Medical Bills Cause Most Bankruptcies - NYTimes.com

or you could just be one of the 45,000 people who die due to lack of health insurance
Harvard study finds nearly 45,000 excess deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage | Physicians for a National Health Program

A study published online today estimates nearly 45,000 annual deaths are associated with lack of health insurance. That figure is about two and a half times higher than an estimate from the Institute of Medicine (IOM) in 2002.

but its ok, because those who cant afford health care are shit out of luck anyways.... let em all die right????

who provides you with that HSA and health insurance your company? how much is your actual out of pocket each month? non employer health insurance averages $300-400 a month for a healthy young adult.

 

[Listening]

this is all easily solvable. if you dont wanna buy health insurance, then pass a law that lets people sign a waiver, the consequence is that if you need medical care, no matter how urgent or life threatening your situation is, you have to prepay for all services.

car accident, hope you can pay
heart attack, hope you can pay
stroke, hope you can pay

and if you cant, well then you dont get any treatment. oh well too bad

Smartest thing you've said yet.

Putting aside the sarcasm......there are some potentially good systems that would allow people to taylor their willingness to take risks (with their fortunes) that the market could satisfy.

My current HSA now has a balance that would probably handle a heart attack even if I didn't have insurance (average cost).

And we all get to chose....the American way.....

Most, including myself, won't go without. But it won't be forced on me.

What the market has not been allowed to do (but it is changing) is get health insurance to those who want it at prices they can afford.

Obamacare isn't necessary.

so your actually advocating for a system in which people are left to die because they are poor? great, the right finally shows their true colors.

$11,000 hospital bill from the emergency department
$11,000 hospital bill from the emergency department

Physical assessment by the emergency resident physician came quickly followed by an EKG, chest x-ray, CT scan of the chest (“they said I might have had a blood clot&#8221, and lab, specifically including cardiac enzymes. Mike said his only complaint was it took over five hours before he heard any news.
“Everything looks good,” said the resident. “Let me run all this past my attending and see if we can get you home.” Mike said by then his pain had been gone for hours and he relaxed by receiving the go.
When the resident returned, however, Mike said he knew something was wrong.
“Sorry Mike, but my attending thinks you need to stay for a chest pain evaluation, “ stated the resident with no hint of emotion. “Your first cardiac enzyme was normal, but he thinks you need another evaluation in six hours followed by a stress test, “ he continued.



hope your sitting on $11k if you have to go to the emergency room.

or you could just file bankruptcy
Medical Bills Cause Most Bankruptcies - NYTimes.com

or you could just be one of the 45,000 people who die due to lack of health insurance
Harvard study finds nearly 45,000 excess deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage | Physicians for a National Health Program

A study published online today estimates nearly 45,000 annual deaths are associated with lack of health insurance. That figure is about two and a half times higher than an estimate from the Institute of Medicine (IOM) in 2002.

but its ok, because those who cant afford health care are shit out of luck anyways.... let em all die right????

who provides you with that HSA and health insurance your company? how much is your actual out of pocket each month? non employer health insurance averages $300-400 a month for a healthy young adult.

O.K. This ranks with some of the more stupid things you've posted.

First, the right has never avoided this so there is no showing of true colors. Personal Responsibility means you get it lined up or you pay the consequences. End of discussion. Yes, I have 11K to pay for that and a lot more. But I buy insurance so I am not going to pay for it. I have a neighbor (a lib) who does not buy insurance and pretty much knows he can screw the system so he spends it on a boat.

Next, unless things have changed, most of those so called medical bankruptcies are for amounts less than 12,000. That is the cost of a good used car. But people figure that they don't have to pay it so they wiggle out of it. A 100K bill, I could understand (boy, I'll bet that insurance looks a whole lot better than the boat when that happens....what about that woman from Ohio who took family vacations and then griped when she could not afford chemo because she could not afford insurance.....???? There is a sucker born every minute). If you want to let people get out from under such small medical bills, be my guest.

Finally, I got a copy of the Harvard Study and wiped my ass with it. First, the assumptions are incredibly specious and the entire study came under fire when it came out. It is basically bogus. Second, start providing names. You figure the study was done a decade ago which means you have 500,000 people who have died since then. Surely you morons can produce some names. Whenever I challenge anyone to produce a list of 1000 names (out of 500K....can't be that hard), it does not happen. We shut this one down a long time ago, junior...try to keep up. And finally, from purely a statistical standpoint....45,000 against the number of people who likely die in this country each year almost becomes statistical noise. That you would quote the study shows you are still using fifth grade books (and BTW: you whined about my posting parts of Federalist Papers...you never posted one sorry assed piece of 10 and stood behind it so STFU....but I digress).

Yes, you populist lefties are so easy to trash.

You got creamed again Junior.

This is fun.