16 year old gang boss shows gun control doesn't work, even in Britain.....but...gun control?

[2aguy]

Now you are getting desperate, so criminals don't count, then they do, then the shooter/victim doesn't count if they don't belong to the school where the shooting occurred, etc, etc.

Fine, in that case I challenge you to document each and every one of your 1.1 million DGUs you claim go on every year in the USA.

Well, moron…..you use a link that is deceitful…. They claim “school” shootings……to everyone but you and them, that would indicate that the students and staff of the school were the targets of the attack….

Of course, since they lie, they include people shot on the weekend when no one is at the school, drug involved shootings across from the school, people who commit suicide after all the students and staff are gone, and they even include apartments near colleges…….

And then you want us to respect you and your source?

You are an irrational extremist.

 

[Vagabond63]

Of course, you will be busy since there are about 18 different studies you have to look at.

No I won't because you've been copy/pasting this BS for a long time now. All these "studies" are just glorified opinion polls, and I suspect a judicial review of these so called DGU incidents would lead to a fair proportion of these cases being considered criminal activity on the part of the person "defending" themself. Your 1.1 million figure is one you made up youself.

No, you are trying to hide the issues…..

On the contrary, I've nothing to hide, unlike the gun lobby over there.

 

[Vagabond63]

Here's another list of School shootings from Wikipedia, with links, just for you.

Lists of school shootings in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Oh, while I'm at it, Wiki also has a list of Workplace killings, worldwide, guess where most of them happened?

List of rampage killers (workplace killings) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[2aguy]

No I won't because you've been copy/pasting this BS for a long time now. All these "studies" are just glorified opinion polls, and I suspect a judicial review of these so called DGU incidents would lead to a fair proportion of these cases being considered criminal activity on the part of the person "defending" themself. Your 1.1 million figure is one you made up youself.

On the contrary, I've nothing to hide, unlike the gun lobby over there.

Nope, that is from the Centers for Disease Control……Threally is also the research done by the Department of Justice…in Clinton’s attempt to discredit Gary Kleck’s research….that found the number to be 1.5 million times a year…

Two government agencies, with trained researchers who used professional research techniques….and those are just two out of 18 studies….

 

[2aguy]

Here's another list of School shootings from Wikipedia, with links, just for you.

Lists of school shootings in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Oh, while I'm at it, Wiki also has a list of Workplace killings, worldwide, guess where most of them happened?

List of rampage killers (workplace killings) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

When you reach 15 million people murdered let us know….the governments of Europe murdered that many in just 6 years…….all of our criminal shootings over 82 years = about 820,000…….

82 years of criminal shootings and it doesn’t even come close the the number of people murdered by your governments……after those governments took guns away from their citizens on the promise it would make them safer….

And, of course…….you still have to get past the fact that guns in America save more lives than criminals take…….lives saved by armed citizens…1.1 million a year, on average according to the Centers for Disease control…or 1.5 million according to the Departmemt of Justice….

 

[Vagabond63]

Nope, that is from the Centers for Disease Control…

Really? Then you should have no problem providing a direct link to the CDC survey that quotes that exact figure. I'll wait...but I won't hold my breath.

 

[Vagabond63]

When you reach 15 million people murdered let us know…

Apparently America already has with your own genocide of native American tribes, people in glass houses, etc.

 

[2aguy]

Really? Then you should have no problem providing a direct link to the CDC survey that quotes that exact figure. I'll wait...but I won't hold my breath.

Here....everything on the CDC research......one study out of the 18 on defensive gun use....

Then, unbeknownst to almost everyone, in the late 1990s, the CDC conducted its own DGU study. The results indicate likely more than a million DGUs annually. The study was never released and was kept secret until decades later, when someone leaked it. The CDC denied that it had suppressed its own research; rather, the CDC claimed that it was still working the data analysis and would release the study when the internal work was finished. As of 2022, that internal review apparently remains a low priority.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | How Often Do Armed Citizens Defend Themselves?

Gun-control groups hate this question. They lie about this question and shun the real answers to it. They do this because the answer is ... a lot. Here are the facts about armed self-defense in America.

www.americas1stfreedom.org

And then this....on that particular research...

SSRN Electronic Library

Abstract​

In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to seven states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Data pertaining to the same sets of states from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995) allow these results to be extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole. CDC’s survey data confirm previous high estimates of DGU prevalence, disconfirm estimates derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey, and indicate that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results.

=========



Reason article on the revised paper..

in direct response to queries from Reason, who first directly notified Kleck of his error, he worked through and has since issued a revised version of the paper, published as was the original as a working paper on the Social Science Research Network. In the new version, Kleck re-analyzes the BRFSS survey data accurately as limited to a small number of states, and ultimately concludes, when their surveys are analyzed in conjunction with his NSDS, that their surveys indicate likely over 1 million defensive uses of guns (DGUs) a year nationally, compared to the over 2 million of his own NSDS.

Here's how Kleck got to that new conclusion. The BRFSS, as Kleck describes it in his paper, "are high-quality telephone surveys of very large probability samples of U.S. adults…even just the subset of four to seven state surveys that asked about DGU in 1996-1998 interviewed 3,197-4,500 adults, depending on the year. This is more people than were asked about this topic in any other surveys, other than the National Self-Defense Survey conducted in 1993 by Kleck and Gertz (1995), who asked DGU questions of 4,977 people." The BRFSS asked about defensive uses of guns in seven states in 1996, seven in 1997, and four in 1998.

Kleck judged the "wording of the DGU question in the BRFSS surveys" as "also excellent, avoiding many problems with the wording that afflicted the DGU questions used in other surveys."

The BRFSS results were designed to exclude "uses by military, police and others with firearm-related jobs" and "uses against animals." The survey was designed to garner "yes" answers as long as a gun was used in presumed self-defense in any location (not just the home), whether or not the gun was actually fired (as, per Kleck's survey, around 3/4 of the time one needn't fire the gun to have found it useful in deterring an intruder or attacker).



A Second Look at a Controversial Study About Defensive Gun Use



-------



Original version before he went back to revise it...

The actual paper by Kleck revealing the CDC hiding data..



SSRN Electronic Library

The timing of CDC’s addition of a DGU question to the BRFSS is of some interest. Prior to 1996, the BRFSS had never included a question about DGU. Kleck and Gertz (1995) conducted their survey in February through April 1993, presented their estimate that there were over 2 million DGUs in 1992 at the annual meetings of the American Society of Criminology in November 1994, and published it in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology in the Fall of 1995. CDC added a DGU question to the BRFSS the very first year they could do so after that 1995 publication, in the 1996 edition. CDC was not the only federal agency during the Clinton administration to field a survey addressing the prevalence of DGU at that particular time. The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) financed a national survey devoting even more detailed attention to estimating DGU prevalence, which was fielded in November and December 1994, just months after preliminary results of the 1993 Kleck/Gertz survey became known. Neither CDC nor NIJ had ever financed research into DGU before 1996. Perhaps there was just “something in the air” that motivated the two agencies to suddenly decide in 1994 to address the topic. Another interpretation, however, is that fielding of the surveys was triggered by the Kleck/Gertz findings that DGU was common, and that these agencies hoped to obtain lower DGU prevalence estimates than those obtained by Kleck/Gertz. Low estimates would have implied fewer beneficial uses of firearms, results that would have been far more congenial to the strongly pro-control positions of the Clinton administration.


CDC, in Surveys It Never Bothered Making Public, Provides More Evidence That Plenty of Americans Innocently Defend Themselves with Guns



Kleck's new paper—"What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses?"—finds that the agency had asked about DGUs in its Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System in 1996, 1997, and 1998.

Those polls, Kleck writes,

are high-quality telephone surveys of enormous probability samples of U.S. adults, asking about a wide range of health-related topics. Those that addressed DGU asked more people about this topic than any other surveys conducted before or since. For example, the 1996 survey asked the DGU question of 5,484 people. The next-largest number questioned about DGU was 4,977 by Kleck and Gertz (1995), and sample sizes were much smaller in all the rest of surveys on the topic (Kleck 2001).

Kleck was impressed with how well the survey worded its question: "During the last 12 months, have you confronted another person with a firearm, even if you did not fire it, to protect yourself, your property, or someone else?" Respondents were told to leave out incidents from occupations, like policing, where using firearms is part of the job. Kleck is impressed with how the question excludes animals but includes DGUs outside the home as well as within it.

Kleck is less impressed with the fact that the question was only asked of people who admitted to owning guns in their home earlier in the survey, and that they asked no follow-up questions regarding the specific nature of the DGU incident.

From Kleck's own surveys, he found that only 79 percent of those who reported a DGU "had also reported a gun in their household at the time of the interview," so he thinks whatever numbers the CDC found need to be revised upward to account for that. (Kleck speculates that CDC showed a sudden interest in the question of DGUs starting in 1996 because Kleck's own famous/notorious survey had been published in 1995.)

At any rate, Kleck downloaded the datasets for those three years and found that the "weighted percent who reported a DGU...was 1.3% in 1996, 0.9% in 1997, 1.0% in 1998, and 1.07% in all three surveys combined."





Kleck figures if you do the adjustment upward he thinks necessary for those who had DGU incidents without personally owning a gun in the home at the time of the survey, and then the adjustment downward he thinks necessary because CDC didn't do detailed follow-ups to confirm the nature of the incident, you get 1.24 percent, a close match to his own 1.326 percent figure.

He concludes that the small difference between his estimate and the CDC's "can be attributed to declining rates of violent crime, which accounts for most DGUs. With fewer occasions for self-defense in the form of violent victimizations, one would expect fewer DGUs."

Kleck further details how much these CDC surveys confirmed his own controversial work:

The final adjusted prevalence of 1.24% therefore implies that in an average year during 1996–1998, 2.46 million U.S. adults used a gun for self-defense.

This estimate, based on an enormous sample of 12,870 cases (unweighted) in a nationally representative sample, strongly confirms the 2.5 million past-12-months estimate obtained Kleck and Gertz (1995)....CDC's results, then, imply that guns were used defensively by victims about 3.6 times as often as they were used offensively by criminals.

 

[2aguy]

Apparently America already has with your own genocide of native American tribes, people in glass houses, etc.

Wow...you are dumb....there was no genocide of Indians in this country......British and other Europeans came here with diseases the Indians had no immunity against.....this killed lots and lots of Indians....

Meanwhile, Britain was a prime mover in the Trans-atlantic slave trade, imperialism, colonialism, socialism, communism......the persecution of the Irish....the potato famine...

If anyone lives in a glass house it is you and the other Brits, who live under the protection of Americans with guns, then raise their noses when Americans hold the Right to self defense as a vital part of our freedom.....

Without American guns, your Royal family would have been murdered, the Jews in your country would have been murdered....and German, or Russian, would have supplanted the Queen's English as your common tongue...

 

[Vagabond63]

there was no genocide of Indians in this country

Keep telling yourself that, if it lets you sleep at night. There are people out there like you, it seems, who continue to deny the Holocaust, so sure, Americans never slaughtered indigenous native tribes, yeah, right, whatever. Psst! It's even in Wikipedia!

Genocide of indigenous peoples - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Vagabond63]

Here....everything on the CDC research......one study out of the 18 on defensive gun use....

No, not what I asked for, you just regurgitated Kleck BS.

If you read carefully I asked for a direct link to the CDC CDC survey that quotes that exact figure, the actual survey data that the CDC itself, concludes with that exact figure.

If you can, fair enough, if not then you lie when you keep stating the CDC itself claims 1.1 million DGUs every year.

Like I said, I'll wait.

 

[2aguy]

No, not what I asked for, you just regurgitated Kleck BS.

If you read carefully I asked for a direct link to the CDC CDC survey that quotes that exact figure, the actual survey data that the CDC itself, concludes with that exact figure.

If you can, fair enough, if not then you lie when you keep stating the CDC itself claims 1.1 million DGUs every year.

Like I said, I'll wait.

Nope.......

The CDC began to study gun self defense....their research showed possibly millions of defensive gun uses....and they stopped the research...this was under bill, the rapist, clinton, and they were trying to disprove Kleck.......and they couldn't do it, so they didn't release their information...but Kleck found it.....and posted it.........

 

[Auld Phart]

 

[Vagabond63]

View attachment 652214

*cough* Sheepdog *cough*

 

[Vagabond63]

Nope.......

The CDC began to study gun self defense....their research showed possibly millions of defensive gun uses....and they stopped the research...this was under bill, the rapist, clinton, and they were trying to disprove Kleck.......and they couldn't do it, so they didn't release their information...but Kleck found it.....and posted it.........

Total BS a usual from you. Read your own sources, they disprove your statement. Oh, and I'm still waiting for that direct link to the CDC actualy staing there are 1.1 million DGUs in the USA annually. You keep stating that so it shouldn't be a problem to provide the direct link I asked for... Although you used to post a 2.5 million figure until that was debunked, oh yes wasn't that Kleck, or Lott, or some other pseudo-scientist.

 

[2aguy]

Oh, I think they know very well what the effect of arming all and sundry with firearms is. They looked at what happened at Dunblane and then what is still happening in schools across America to this day, and concluded that it is far more important in a civilised society to keep its children as safe as possible from harm, and that includes having guns in the home.

Mother Facing Charges After 2nd Grade Son Brings Gun to Disney Magnet School, Weapon Discharges In Backpack

The mother of a second grader at Disney Magnet School in Chicago’s Buena Park neighborhood is facing child endangerment charges and expected in court after her son Tuesday brought her gun to school and the weapon “accidentally discharged” in the classroom while inside his backpack, police say.

www.nbcchicago.com

Interesting statistics. The US has had 57 times as many school shootings as the other major industrialized nations combined

We’ve had 13 mass school shootings in 56 years

 

[Vagabond63]

We’ve had 13 mass school shootings in 56 years

We had 1, even if what you say is true, which I doubt, that's still 13 too many in my view.

 

[2aguy]

We had 1, even if what you say is true, which I doubt, that's still 13 too many in my view.

And your gun control laws didn't stop you from having more......you had guns and your nuts didn't attack schools....you keep telling us that you can have shotguns, and you don't have school shootings....

What you don't understand is that your country has guns....illegal guns......and if someone wants to shoot up a school, a mall, a theater.....your gun control laws aren't stopping them....

You have a tiny population....your population hasn't been devestated by decades of family destruction.......now it has.....in America, our out of wedlock birthrates in the black community are over 75%....that leads to crime, and drug abuse, which leads to violence......you are going to be experiencing this....you can already see the signs.....and gun violence is going to happen....you can't keep illegal guns off your tiny island...

 

[Vagabond63]

And your gun control laws didn't stop you from having more......you had guns and your nuts didn't attack schools....you keep telling us that you can have shotguns, and you don't have school shootings....

What you don't understand is that your country has guns....illegal guns......and if someone wants to shoot up a school, a mall, a theater.....your gun control laws aren't stopping them....

Yes they do. They limit the numbers of firearms available to the general public and they carefully vet those who want to own firearms to weed out those who may be psychologically prone to commit these atrocities. Criminals do not shoot up schools, malls, theatres, etc. So called "normal" people do this and our gun control laws have been effective so far, in weeding these people out.

These "illegal" guns you keep blathering on about are used by criminals to protect themselves against other criminals; very, very rarely do members of the general public get involved in such gun violence and that more by accident than design.

 

[Vagabond63]

You have a tiny population....your population hasn't been devestated by decades of family destruction....

Well, that's a change of diatribe from you; you used to keep going on about our population being devastated by warand family destruction, now it hasn't. Make up your mind and at least be consistant when you try to fear monger.