16 year old gang boss shows gun control doesn't work, even in Britain.....but...gun control?

[2aguy]

16 years old.....in Britain.....responsible for several shootings in a country that bans and confiscates guns...

Hmmm....did the British government forget to include 16 year old gang leaders under their gun control laws?

Harry O'Brien was just 16 when he was arrested for a series of violent and terrifying incidents linked to a drug-dealing 'graft line' in Dingle. O'Brien controlled a crew of dealers selling cannabis, but his "lucrative" trade was exposed after a "feud" led to three shootings in three weeks in South Liverpool.

One attack saw bullets fired from an Audi at a BMW, as the two cars raced side-by-side through the city at night. A stray bullet flew through the front door of an "entirely innocent" family's home and landed on their hallway stairs.
----

A gunman on an electric bike peppered a family's living room with bullets and fired into another victim's bedroom. Finally, O'Brien had petrol poured through the letterbox of a mum's home and set ablaze, as she and her children ran for their lives.
-----
Last week Liverpool Crown Court heard O'Brien planned and took part in all three shootings, "orchestrated the arson", and the cannabis plot was "his enterprise". David Temkin, QC, prosecuting, said: "Harry O'Brien was at the heart of the criminality in this case."


Michael McClean, then 16, and Aaron Donohoe, then 19, were his "lieutenants", given "managerial responsibility" over his drug trade. "Trusted" Daniel Lawler, 19, joined O'Brien in carrying out two of the shootings, which all involved the same Glock semi-automatic gun - never recovered by police.

Taking 'very dangerous' child gang boss off street 'builds trust'

Merseyside Police are celebrating a major success in efforts to reduce gun crime

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Criminals in Britain use guns when they want to use guns.......the nature of British criminals is changing....they no longer respect British police or British laws.......

 

[Captain Caveman]

The forum gun retard strikes again.

 

[Vagabond63]

The forum gun retard strikes again.

What makes me laugh is the fact that whenever such gun violence is "discussed"in on this board and I use that term loosly, these people shout, "it's criminal on criminal: that doesn't count! Yet in other countries where it's "criminal on criminal" suddenly it's, look we need more guns to protect ourselves because gun controls in other countries don't work.

 

[2aguy]

What makes me laugh is the fact that whenever such gun violence is "discussed"in on this board and I use that term loosly, these people shout, "it's criminal on criminal: that doesn't count! Yet in other countries where it's "criminal on criminal" suddenly it's, look we need more guns to protect ourselves because gun controls in other countries don't work.

The majority of all gun murder is, in fact, committed against actual criminals…..but law abiding people are the targets of criminals…….they are raped, robbed, murdered, beaten and atabbed……you ignore these crimes and believe people should simply accept their fate, women should close their eyes and think of the queen….and that magic doors and windows are all people need…….

in Britain….

Again…..a woman can’t get a gun to prevent being raped, beaten, and murdered because self defense is not a good reason to own and carry a gun..

A rich member of the House of Lords who wants to take his rich friends bird hunting on one of his many private estates can get a gun because hunting birds is a good reason to own a gun….

that makes sense to you……

 

[Vagabond63]

…you ignore these crimes and believe people should simply accept their fate, women should close their eyes and think of the queen….and that magic doors and windows are all people need……

No I don't, I merely believe that guns are not the only available solution, nor do I believe they are the best solution.

 

[2aguy]

No I don't, I merely believe that guns are not the only available solution, nor do I believe they are the best solution.

Yes....you do.......guns are the most effective tool against violent criminals...anything else is second rate....

Again....

A woman wants a gun to prevent herself from being beaten, raped and murdered......in Britain, this is not a good reason to own and carry a gun.

A rich member of the House of Lords wants to take his drinking buddies to one of his many private estates to go bird hunting......according to the British government, this is a good reason to have a gun.

This makes sense to you.

 

[Vagabond63]

Yes....you do.......

No I don't, can't you read?

 

[Vagabond63]

A woman wants a gun to prevent herself from being beaten, raped and murdered......in Britain, this is not a good reason to own and carry a gun.

I the UK, 85-90% of women want even stronger gun controls than we have already. So it's highly unlikely a woman over here would want a gun at all.

 

[Vagabond63]

A rich member of the House of Lords wants to take his drinking buddies to one of his many private estates to go bird hunting......according to the British government, this is a good reason to have a gun.

Most shoots are run as businesses nowadays, you don't have to be a lord to own a private estate. All guns are licensed and registered, and kept unloaded and secure when not in use.

 

[2aguy]

I the UK, 85-90% of women want even stronger gun controls than we have already. So it's highly unlikely a woman over here would want a gun at all.

Yes...because they don't know that guns are the most effective tool to protect them from violent criminals...

 

[Vagabond63]

Yes...because they don't know that guns are the most effective tool to protect them from violent criminals...

Oh, I think they know very well what the effect of arming all and sundry with firearms is. They looked at what happened at Dunblane and then what is still happening in schools across America to this day, and concluded that it is far more important in a civilised society to keep its children as safe as possible from harm, and that includes having guns in the home.

Mother Facing Charges After 2nd Grade Son Brings Gun to Disney Magnet School, Weapon Discharges In Backpack

The mother of a second grader at Disney Magnet School in Chicago’s Buena Park neighborhood is facing child endangerment charges and expected in court after her son Tuesday brought her gun to school and the weapon “accidentally discharged” in the classroom while inside his backpack, police say.

www.nbcchicago.com

Interesting statistics. The US has had 57 times as many school shootings as the other major industrialized nations combined

 

[2aguy]

Oh, I think they know very well what the effect of arming all and sundry with firearms is. They looked at what happened at Dunblane and then what is still happening in schools across America to this day, and concluded that it is far more important in a civilised society to keep its children as safe as possible from harm, and that includes having guns in the home.

Mother Facing Charges After 2nd Grade Son Brings Gun to Disney Magnet School, Weapon Discharges In Backpack

The mother of a second grader at Disney Magnet School in Chicago’s Buena Park neighborhood is facing child endangerment charges and expected in court after her son Tuesday brought her gun to school and the weapon “accidentally discharged” in the classroom while inside his backpack, police say.

www.nbcchicago.com

Interesting statistics. The US has had 57 times as many school shootings as the other major industrialized nations combined

Wrong......the way they got that number is by adding in every kind of crime that happened close to a school, including events that happened after the school was closed...you idiot.

And after Dunblane you still have mass public shootings at the same rate, about one every 10 years.....the gun confiscation after Dunblane didn't change your rate of mass public shootings, you doofus.

Cumbria, and Moss side happened after Dunblane......

And, since you keep reminding us that people can still own guns in Britain, the only thing that has stopped more mass public shootings is the nuts in your country don't commit them......since they have access to guns...as you keep telling us....

Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rape, robbery, murders, stabbings, and beatings.....this includes protecting children from those same attacks........

Can you tell which number is bigger?

 

[Vagabond63]

Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rape, robbery, murders, stabbings, and beatings...

Ah, yes, the usual BS "statistic" that you made up. Since there is no official definition of a DGU, and no record is kept of such alleged occurances, we are left with "surveys", glorified opinion polls. For all you know, the tue figure could be a tenth of that quoted by you, or ten times that quoted by you.

Cue torrent of cut/paste BS... Go!

 

[Vagabond63]

Wrong......the way they got that number is by adding in every kind of crime that happened close to a school, including events that happened after the school was closed...you idiot.

Erm, no they didn't.

The definition: The parameters we followed in this count are -

• Shooting must involve at least one person being shot (not including the shooter)
• Shooting must occur on school grounds
• We included gang violence, fights and domestic violence (but our count is NOT limited to those categories)
• We included grades Kindergarten through college/university level as well as vocational schools
• We included accidental discharge of a firearm as long as the first two parameters are met

 

[2aguy]

Ah, yes, the usual BS "statistic" that you made up. Since there is no official definition of a DGU, and no record is kept of such alleged occurances, we are left with "surveys", glorified opinion polls. For all you know, the tue figure could be a tenth of that quoted by you, or ten times that quoted by you.

Cue torrent of cut/paste BS... Go!

Yeah...only decades of research both government and private.....trained researchers using actual research techniques, but you have to deny them because they show everything you believe about guns is wrong.......

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

2021 national firearms survey..

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey


And this....

The same journal issue that published the Kleck & Gertz study also published a response by Marvin Wolfgang. He had long been the most-influential criminologist in the English-speaking world, and he was past president of the American Society of Criminology. Wolfgang wrote: “I am as strong a gun-control advocate as can be found among the criminologists in this country ... . I would eliminate all guns from the civilian population and maybe even from the police. I hate guns ... . Nonetheless, the methodological soundness of the current Kleck and Gertz study is clear ... . The Kleck and Gertz study impresses me for the caution the authors exercise and the elaborate nuances they examine methodologically. I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology. They have tried earnestly to meet all objections in advance and have done exceedingly well.”

An Official Journal Of The NRA | How Often Do Armed Citizens Defend Themselves?

Gun-control groups hate this question. They lie about this question and shun the real answers to it. They do this because the answer is ... a lot. Here are the facts about armed self-defense in America.

www.americas1stfreedom.org

 

[2aguy]

Erm, no they didn't.

The definition: The parameters we followed in this count are -

• Shooting must involve at least one person being shot (not including the shooter)
• Shooting must occur on school grounds
• We included gang violence, fights and domestic violence (but our count is NOT limited to those categories)
• We included grades Kindergarten through college/university level as well as vocational schools
• We included accidental discharge of a firearm as long as the first two parameters are met

Nope.......when there are no kids in the school, it isn't a school shooting....you moron....when someone pulls into a parking lot and commits suicide...that isn't a school shooting....you doofus.

That is how they lie....

 

[2aguy]

Erm, no they didn't.

The definition: The parameters we followed in this count are -

• Shooting must involve at least one person being shot (not including the shooter)
• Shooting must occur on school grounds
• We included gang violence, fights and domestic violence (but our count is NOT limited to those categories)
• We included grades Kindergarten through college/university level as well as vocational schools
• We included accidental discharge of a firearm as long as the first two parameters are met

Hey...dipstick...notice what isn't part of that definition? How they lie, in order to increase their fake number?

They do not have "The students of the school were the targets of the attack."

That means, you uninformed dolt....that the gang members playing hoops on the playground on a Saturday night who get shot at by a rival gang....is a school shooting according to their definition......the gang members selling drugs parked next to a school who get shot at......is a school shooting......

We had a local guy walk to a school playground, he sat down on the bottom of the slide and shot himself....after school, no kids around.....that, according to morons like you equals a school shooting.....you idiot.

 

[2aguy]

Oh, I think they know very well what the effect of arming all and sundry with firearms is. They looked at what happened at Dunblane and then what is still happening in schools across America to this day, and concluded that it is far more important in a civilised society to keep its children as safe as possible from harm, and that includes having guns in the home.

Mother Facing Charges After 2nd Grade Son Brings Gun to Disney Magnet School, Weapon Discharges In Backpack

The mother of a second grader at Disney Magnet School in Chicago’s Buena Park neighborhood is facing child endangerment charges and expected in court after her son Tuesday brought her gun to school and the weapon “accidentally discharged” in the classroom while inside his backpack, police say.

www.nbcchicago.com

Interesting statistics. The US has had 57 times as many school shootings as the other major industrialized nations combined

You are a moron..........

This is a school shooting when you follow the links....in your own link...

Someone shot in an apartment on campus...

Someone not from the school is shot by someone who also is not from the school

A man, not identified, is shot in the parking lot of a school...(read, gang member....)

A teacher of a gun safety class.......more than likely after school hours....negligently discharged the gun......you moron....

There has been, on average, 1 school shooting every week this year | CNN

We're 21 weeks into 2018, and there have been 23 school shootings where someone was hurt or killed. That averages out to more than 1 shooting a week.

www.cnn.com

Which of those above are shootings that targeted students? Kind of an important distinction when it comes to claiming they are "School Shootings...."


None of the notes at that link give any details about the shooting or who was shot, or who shot them....why?

Because they want to lie, and hide the fact that many of these shootings are drug and crime related....you idiot...

 

[Vagabond63]

You are a moron..........

This is a school shooting when you follow the links....in your own link...

Someone shot in an apartment on campus...

Someone not from the school is shot by someone who also is not from the school

A man, not identified, is shot in the parking lot of a school...(read, gang member....)

A teacher of a gun safety class.......more than likely after school hours....negligently discharged the gun......you moron....

There has been, on average, 1 school shooting every week this year | CNN

We're 21 weeks into 2018, and there have been 23 school shootings where someone was hurt or killed. That averages out to more than 1 shooting a week.

www.cnn.com

Which of those above are shootings that targeted students? Kind of an important distinction when it comes to claiming they are "School Shootings...."


None of the notes at that link give any details about the shooting or who was shot, or who shot them....why?

Because they want to lie, and hide the fact that many of these shootings are drug and crime related....you idiot...

Now you are getting desperate, so criminals don't count, then they do, then the shooter/victim doesn't count if they don't belong to the school where the shooting occurred, etc, etc.

Fine, in that case I challenge you to document each and every one of your 1.1 million DGUs you claim go on every year in the USA.

 

[2aguy]

Now you are getting desperate, so criminals don't count, then they do, then the shooter/victim doesn't count if they don't belong to the school where the shooting occurred, etc, etc.

Fine, in that case I challenge you to document each and every one of your 1.1 million DGUs you claim go on every year in the USA.

No, you are trying to hide the issues…..

Criminals shooting at other criminals for crime and fun are not the same as nuts going to a public place to murder innocent strangers

You have to mix the two together so you can lie about our gun crime.

And the 1.1 million from the research? You go and ask the government and private sector, professional researchers who did the research about the individuals they examined….

Of course, you will be busy since there are about 18 different studies you have to look at.