15,000 empty apartments in Manhattan.

AzogtheDefiler

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Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.
It is way too expensive to live in nyc. People who worked in nyc but now work from home have moved to places where their salaries go a lot further.

Shuli on the Howard stern show moved to Alabama. With what he makes he’s rich in Alabama. If you can work from home why live in a city where $100,000 a year is not a lot?
And whose fault is that?

You jack up taxes, jack up regulations, jack up housing policy, jack up the police so that crime is everywhere, which increases costs on the city.... and then you say "It's too expensive to live there" as if that just fell out of the sky randomly.

No it didn't. Bad policies caused this.

And by the way, they could have had thousands of well paying jobs in NYC when Amazon built an HQ there, but AOC drove them out. Brilliant.
Hey, if you want to live or do business in ny you have to pay. Otherwise go to Alabama. Use their ports and tear up their roads.
Well that's kind of my point. They are not, and they leaving.

People are leaving NYC. That's the point. This is true everywhere.

When France implemented their wealth tax... they said the same thing. "Hey, if you want to live and do business in France, you have to pay!"

and you know what happened????


They left! They were packing up their wealthy, their businesses, and their families, and leaving.

Famously in Jamaica, when PM Manly passed all his socialist crap.... he said openly "There are six flights a day to Miami"... and people started taking the flights to Miami. They left.

You can't hurt the rich. Only yourself. It was poor people of Jamaica that end up dealing with the joblessness and high crime.

The rich left.

Same in NYC. The rich are leaving. The poor are stuck jobless, and victimized by the criminals.

So, yes.... they will leave.
Then don’t expect America to be great again. Not if you are middle class. The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.

If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.
I actually don't believe that America was ever not great. At least thus far. America has never ceased being great.

The only people who think that America has declined, are the fools who have never lived, or been elsewhere, or know people who live elsewhere.

I do. I've been to Europe. I know people who live in Europe right now. And if you think America is not better than Europe, or the rest of the world, you are crazy. You don't know what you are talking about.

People in Europe live lower standards of living, universally. Smaller houses, smaller cars, smaller appliances, less spending money, less entertainment.

There is no possible way to measure the standards of living in the rest of the world, and compare to the US, and not have the US be better.

Why do think we have millions of people trying to get into this country? It's one of the most baffling aspects of Left-wing contradictions, that you want open borders to let people freely come into the country, and at the same time claim the country is declining and everything is terrible, and America is racists and evil.

Those are mutually exclusive positions. People don't risk their lives, to get into places that are terrible.

The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

No, I don't buy that. You show me one person who walked the exact same path as their parents, and is worse off.

I'm not making the same money as my parents, but that's because I am not in the same career as my parents.

I have relatives, where their parents were wielders. Their son, became a wielder too. Their son is make more money than his parents did, when they were his age.

I know engineers, and they make more money in engineering than their parents who were engineers.

And as far as the standard of living.... no you are still crazy.

My standard of living today, is better than my parents when they were my age. By quite a bit too.

My house is bigger, than the house they had at my age. I have had central air conditioning since I was in college, in 1999. My parents didn't have air conditioning until they were in their late 50s. Microwaves, internet, computers, instapots. My parents didn't have cable TV until they were in their late 50s, and in fact, didn't even own a TV until they were in their late 40s.

I've had all of that, and smart phones, and GPS driving directions, and on and on and on.

We today, are miles and miles beyond where are parents were at the same age. You are crazy if you think otherwise. Absolutely crazy.

The poorest WORKING people today, have a higher standard of living, than the middle class of the 1970s. By a MASSIVE margin.

Now if you are living off welfare and unemployment, and not working consistently full time, then yeah, they are falling way behind, and need to get off their butts, and work for what they want.

But the poorest working people putting in full days work every day.... no they are way beyond where the middle class was in the 1970s, or even 1980s.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.
If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.


Social Security was going broke before Trump was even running for office.

You are fool if your retirement plan is to depend on Social Security.

Before any of this Covid nonsense happened, SS was going broke. Before Trump was ever elected, SS paid out so little, that you were basically going to live in poverty until you die, if Social Security was your retirement plan.

Anyone who plans to retire on Social Security is an idiot. You need to be saving for your own retirement out of your own income, like everyone else should be doing.

Social Security is the most poverty creating program in US history. Don't be stupid. Save for retirement.
We don’t have to be worse than Europe. Maybe we’re still better but not as much as we were before Reagan bush and trump.

And when I say we’re not better than we were before I mean the middle class. The rich are doing great.

Half of me is working class and half is investor class. As a worker I disagree with you. As an investor I partially agree with you. And when I agree I certainly don’t agree on your suggested remedies.
Again, factually speaking, we are way better off after the 1980s, than before.

If you telling me that the working class, TODAY.... is worse off, than the working class of the 1970s.... or before.... you are crazy. You are factually incorrect sir.

We are way way way better off than the people in the 1970s or before.

The middle class TODAY... is better off than the middle class of the 1970s.

And yes, investors are better off too. You know who is an investor? Likely.... 70% of the population?

55% of people have investments in the stock market.
65% have property investments.
15% have pensions, which are in fact investments, typically in the stock market.

And there are millions with annuities, and those are typically invested in stocks too.

And by the way, there is a connection between investment and labor. Most jobs wouldn't exist without investment.

So while someone might claim "The investor class is doing well, but the working class is not".... really? Because without the investments, hundreds of millions of jobs wouldn't exist, and those workers would be far worse off.
Honestly I grew up in the 70s and 80s in metro Detroit. Back then a guy could graduate high school and go find a job that would support a family of 5. One income. One bread winner.

Today to do as well you have to go to college and how much does that cost? So blue collar are not better off today and back in my day college was $5000 a year. I worked in the summer and saved most of my tuition. Maybe my dad had to chip in $1000 a year so I didn’t need student loans.

And honestly, for years I had a college degree but wasn’t doing as well as my dad did. I am now but that is common now especially for millennials. First generation who won’t do better than their parents.

I may make more than my dad ever did but am I better off? Fuck no. My dad has great retirement benefits through ford. And a pension. He took the buy out.

Oh yea and me. I make $100k a year give or take now. Have for the past 5 years. I’m 49. So let’s say I’ve got to at least work till I’m 62 to collect social security and Medicare. If they let me retire with those things at 62 I will I don’t care how much I lose for retiring early.

BUT. If I would have went to work at ford when I graduated highschool at 17, I’d already be getting a 30 year pension 2 years ago. At the age of 47. So even though I’m balling and have no debt, I’m still going to have to work 15 more years than if I would have just taken that union job at ford.

plus i wouldn’t have spent that $20,000 on a bachelors degree.
If I only made $100k per yr I would be depressed.
Why should people who make $60k and have $100,000 in student loan debt vote republican? You probably like that th3 ceo makes 300x what they make right?

But you, if you really make more than me, you should vote republican. But if you don’t you shouldn’t.

Arent you that fat foreign guy? Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else?
I vote Republican because Democrats tell me that men may identity as women
Ha! I was just telling a guy name unkotare how they use gay to con poor and middle class Americans into voting republican. Without these wedge issues like guns, racism, abortion these people would have no business voting republican. Republicans are not pro labor. Period.
How so?
Because republicans are against employees unionizing. Their way brought wages down.

Because republicans won’t go after illegal employers. So they arent really trying to kick illegals out. A wall. Ha!

Because trumps fixes to nafta and trade with ch8na did nothing to help labor. And only american companies a little. Only enough for trump to claim a victory.

Youre being conned
Unions are stupid. Republicans are for lower taxes and fewer regulations. You’re uneducated by your own admission so please stop trying to sound smart.
Republicans are against paying labor more too. Driving wages down. How? By sending jobs overseas and hiring illegal workers
Not true at all. Fewer regulations equates to more business openings and expansion and more jobs. Trump brought jobs back and halted corporate inversions.
More jobs but lower paying.

But I’m not so against lower wages anymore. As long as it’s not my wages. You and I make more than the average american with two kids. I’m not worrying about them anymore

but remember you admitted that if you made what they all make, your be depressed. So why should they vote like you vote when you’re for lower wages for them?
lower pay?? how so?
Look at companies like Toyota and Honda Compared to ford and gm. More temps than full time employees.

That’s just one example.

Do you even have to ask?

Republicans applaud companies who’s CEOs make the most but employees make the least.
PROOF PLEASE--you just babbled..how about some facts and figures--FOR ONCE!!!!
Look it up
We have looked it up. There is no example of lower pay.

You show me the example of lower pay. You show me the wielder that in 1970 was earning $50/hour, and today is earning $10/hour.

There is no such example anywhere. None. Zero. Even adjusted for inflation, no such example.

We have looked it up. You are wrong. This is why we are asking you to look it up, so you can educate yourself on your false beliefs.
Ford scores higher in 6 areas dummy. Overall rating, career opportunpities, work life balance, senior management, culture and values and % recommended to a friend.

Big three workers make $27 hr Toyota $25.

Keep in mind Toyota only pays what they pay because if they didn’t their employees would unionize.

Engineers at ford make $37 hr Toyota engineers make $32

Ford has 3400 temp workers. I’m looking at an article about Toyota extending plant shutdown and will stop paying 5000 temps.
What does any of that have to do with anything?

You made the claim that people are paid less today, than they were yesterday.

Are you saying that Toyota Engineers were making $37/hour and now they are making $32 an hour?

I'm not asking you if some employees are choosing to work for a company that pays less money.

Which employee was making $37/hour yesterday, or last year, or last decade, and today is making $32/hour?

Unless they suck. I've known some engineers, that honestly were not worth $15/hour.

How much was Toyota paying engineers 30 years ago? Is more... or less... than how much engineers are paid today?

And honestly, Toyota Engineers are paid $32/hour? Oh my bleeding heart..... oh the horror....

You know that German automotive engineers in Germany right now, earn less than that?

Evidence my friend. Evidence. You are complaining about better working conditions than other first world countries offer.

Engineers come here from Europe, and earn more working for Toyota.



View attachment 389136
I do not even believe you honestly.

Figures about pay scales are horribly easy to mislead with.

No two engineers are identical by any stretch. One engineer can have 10 years of experience, while another might have only 3 years of experience. Another engineer might have 15 years of experience, but in a field where there are dozens of engineers, while another engineer with only 5 years of experience might specialize in a field that few others do.

Just saying "well this group of engineers collectively is paid less or more than another group" is just ridiculous. You don't know what experience they have, what they specialize in, or anything.

They are not significantly paid less than people at Ford. If they were, no one would work there.

Overall, wages have gone up.... PERIOD. They have gone up, and what you posted doesn't contradict that.

We have the highest wages, and then highest standard of living in the world, and people need to be less spoiled, less complaining, and more grateful for what we have.
Was all this true on Obama's watch or only after Trump got into office?

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.

I'm talking about these people: the median weekly earnings are $933, or about $48,516 per year.
Who are these people? Do you know any?
Medium income is $47,000 a year. That’s what I imagine most Americans are working with.

And even though it’s probably tough to raise a family on that, $47,000 isn’t that bad. I don’t think the masses should all be making more than that.

The more I talk to you guys the more I realize things probably aren’t as bad as I think. But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table. And I don’t want government cutting my social security no matter how much I make. I’m going to want that extra $300 a month when I’m retired. Cutting my social security 20% would not be cool and that’s what republicans want to do.

And before you deny it, don’t lie. Like yesterday trump said he doesn’t want to do away with pre existing conditions but we know that’s a fucking lie

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?
I hope he does away with the ban on pre-existing conditions.

Do you want affordable health insurance for 90% of the country or not? Yes or no, dude. Because you can't get affordable health care, while being forced to pay for people who don't buy health insurance.

I was working at a place some years bad, and there was a guy that canceled his insurance, and said he'll just get insurance if he gets sick.

See, this is another case, where because you can't see how it directly effects you, then you are fine with it.

But if your health insurance payment, had it itemized to show how much you are paying for your own policy, and how many paying for people who intentionally did not buy insurance, and then got sick, and now you have to cover the cost of their care.....

You yourself would be SCREAMING to have pre-existing condition clauses.

But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table.

Every company that has allowed labor to have a seat at the table, has imploded in on itself. Do you like employees losing their jobs?

Ask the people of Toyota or Honda, if they wish they had the seat at the table like those of Chrysler before they became a subsidiary of Fiat.

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

The irony of that statement is that right-wingers routinely provide vastly more help than left-wingers, throughout the entire world, and especially in the US.

We routinely do far more to actually help people, than the left-wing. Left-wingers only demand that OTHER PEOPLE help the poor or sick.
I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!
So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?
That is up to your employer and what they negotiate with that carrier. But yes, that carrier should not have an obligation to do so, however, they likely will because they are making millions off that employer and most of the people who sign up won't have such conditions.

So let me ask you this. I have a family of four and knock on wood all healthy. I should pay the same as some guy with a family of six, who smokes, has diabetes and has a wife who is constantly at the doctor and kids too as he has so many? How is that equitable to me?
Because knock on wood don’t work. But they should reward non smokers or healthy people. That’s a great idea.
But they don’t. How about dem apples. System is broken.
 

Andylusion

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Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.
Some people in Manhattan can afford multiple houses. It's an unfamiliar concept for most red states....unless the houses have wheels.
When the city locks down, there is little reason to continue living there and paying rent on an apartment. Once it opens back up completely, the city will once again be the envy of every red state low-life.
You mistakenly think that most Red State residents want what New York City has, Candy. They don't. They like living where they do. You know what they don't like? When liberals from places like New York and California move to a Red State and set about trying to destroy their new homes like they did their old ones.
Sure they do. We need to enlighten them.
That kind of cracks me up a bit. I'm more than willing to argue the facts, or discuss the topic with you, and yet dozens of times you have resorted to nothing more than name calling.

Now you want to enlighten me? Your current claims, are contradicted by your prior actions.
 

Andylusion

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....

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.
......
There is no "class warfare" no matter how badly the democrats want it.

Your shrink is doing a piss-poor job. You can't go half a day without gassing on about how 'rich' you think you are. You are pathologically shallow and insecure. What a poor fucking excuse for a human being.
If the rich lobby politicians to cut social programs so they can get tax cuts, that’s class warfare stupid boy.

If the rich in the 80s start hiring illegals to avoid paying American wages, that’s class warfare you idiot. This has cost the middle class billions and profited corporations billions every year fool.

If they send our highest paying manufacturing jobs to mexico, that’s class warfare dummy.

If they break unions, that’s class warfare

And now it’s all secretive because of citizens united.
I don't know of a single person anywhere, lobbying to cut social programs to get a tax cut.

Moreover, that isn't class warfare.

*I* personally, with my $30,000 income, want to cut taxes, and cut social programs.

Further, social programs have done far more harm, than good. In fact, one of the primary reasons that I oppose social programs, is specifically because they harm people.

Charity, which is over whelmingly the rich and the conservatives, genuinely help people.

Social programs just keep people enslaved, and poor, and beholden to the government.

If they send our highest paying manufacturing jobs to mexico, that’s class warfare dummy.

That is also, not class warfare.

If you cannot make something profitable in the US, then you are going to make it elsewhere, or... not make it at all.

Things that are not profitable to be made... are simply not made.

If they break unions, that’s class warfare

That is most certainly not class warfare. Unions have done more to damage their members, than any group in human history.

You want to wreck the middle class? Unionize.

Besides, most unions have not been broken by government or corporations. Most unions have been destroyed by.... the Unions. The unions destroy their own jobs, and wreck themselves.

And by the way, this true the world over.



Two factories in France. Same town. Same people. Same product even. Both made tires for agricultural use.

Both were unionized. Both started losing money, and were on the verge of being closed down completely.

Instead, one factory the employees themselves, kicked out the Union, adopted cost cutting measures, slightly lower wages, more productivity.

The other factory refused to make any concessions, and was closed.

The non-union factory is doing well. The other is closed.

Unions are the number one destroyer of Unions.
You have convinced me. Wow. When’s the last time that’s happened on usmb?
I've been convinced I was wrong about a few things in the past. Not often, but it does happen. There are some people who will honestly discuss things, and you can learn from people from time to time.
 

sealybobo

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....

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.
......
There is no "class warfare" no matter how badly the democrats want it.

Your shrink is doing a piss-poor job. You can't go half a day without gassing on about how 'rich' you think you are. You are pathologically shallow and insecure. What a poor fucking excuse for a human being.
If the rich lobby politicians to cut social programs so they can get tax cuts, that’s class warfare stupid boy.

If the rich in the 80s start hiring illegals to avoid paying American wages, that’s class warfare you idiot. This has cost the middle class billions and profited corporations billions every year fool.

If they send our highest paying manufacturing jobs to mexico, that’s class warfare dummy.

If they break unions, that’s class warfare

And now it’s all secretive because of citizens united.
So how did you start making good money, you are not that different than others, you were not union, so, I’m not seeing class warfare. Your brother according to you is doing well.

In America if you work hard and find a niche, you make money, your excuses are just that, excuses.
Ever been in sales? Well I’ve worked for many shitty companies. They’re business model is to hire 90% more salespeople than you think you need. Pay them 100% commission and watch all 100% of them work their asses for 8 months and watch 90% of them fail. Some right away, some in a month, some in 2, 3, 4-7 months and by month 8 you have the 10% you’re going to keep.

Then repeat and do it every 6 months. The 10% don’t mind because when the new people quit they get their accounts.

I made it to the 10%. I didn’t like this business model. But when people are looking for jobs and there aren’t any they’ll take the chance. I took this job right out of college during hw Bush’s shitty 4 years. I went back after the gw Great Recession and didn’t make it. But it led to this job luckily.

Also keep in mind it doesn’t look good if you bounce from job to job but in sales it’s almost unavoidable if you want to try to make more money and if you don’t succeed and get let go that looks bad on a job interview. So it’s easy to say just go find another better job. Good luck with that.

Ive seen first hand how sales got fucked with in the past 20 plus years. Just because I finally found a good job doesn’t mean I forgot.
Used to be in sales, I knew I was better and created my own business.
I tried starting my own business. It’s not for me. I commend you unless you had someone help you financially then I would commend them.

I find I’m happiest working for someone else. Salary, vacation days, commissions, 401k, sick day, they pay for rent and all my supplies. Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem.

And it would have been great owning my own business if I had 3 jobs a day. The toughest days were days where I didn’t have any jobs so I would prospect for new business. So I was working and not making anything. At my company Now when I’m prospecting, I’m being paid.
See, to me that is a weird statement. You are acting like, money is all that is required to make a successful business, and the guy running the place isn't worth commending. And the real irony is that even in your own post, you indicate the opposite.

I find I’m happiest working for someone else. Salary, vacation days, commissions, 401k, sick day, they pay for rent and all my supplies. Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem.

Do you not see the irony there? You enjoy all those things, which people who start their own business don't have. But you would rather commend the financial backers, than the person doing the work.

My last long term job, the CEO of the company, who owned the company, was on a vacation. A customer called in with a critical problem with our products. The CEO flew back from vacation on Wednesday morning, worked all day Wednesday and Thursday, and flew back to vacation, Thursday night, only to come back Saturday.

And he deserves no commendation?

When you were an employee, and went on vacation, did you get called back to fix problems? Likely no. I know I've never been called on vacation.

Same guy, the following year, we had a huge deployment of products, for outdoor use. A week after deployment, the customer sent back pictures that the units had filled with water after a rain storm.

The CEO, the VP, the head of sales, and the head of engineering, all rented a van, drove down to Florida, and worked all night long for two days, repairing the units.

And he deserves no commendation?

The average CEO works between 50 and 60 hours a week. And when things go wrong, they don't contact the employee on the production line, they contact the people in charge.

You like having no responsibilities "Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem." but then don't want to give credit to the people who do own the responsibilities.

So I was working and not making anything. At my company Now when I’m prospecting, I’m being paid.


Again, that's our point. The reason why Bezo today has billions, is because when the company started, and there was no business.... Bezo earned nothing.

The employees still collected a check, while Bezo just lost money, paying people to try and find work.

That's why as the business improves, now he's a multi-billionaire.

1-800-GOT-JUNK, when Scudamore was building his junk removal service, when there was no work, he was driving around hunting for trash that needed removed, driving up and down roads looking for work earning nothing.

Do you see the issue? When left-wingers say "Why does the CEO earn 20X the wages of the employee" this is why. He owns the risk. He built the place, or keeps it running. He owns the responsibility. He takes on the tough choices.

The employees sit back, collect a check, and say "Not my problem" right? Why should employees be paid more, when they own the responsibility of nothing? Why should they be paid more when they invested none of their own money in the business?
This is why I laugh at Progs. They have no concept of how hard it is to get a Biz up and running. They think that when you open the doors money just automatically starts flowing in.
I get it. I admit it.

But, the owner of my company is the daughter of the late founder of the company. She took over daddy’s operation.

But I just heard most billionaires are self made men. Bezos, Bloomberg, Buffett, Cuban, Soros
 

sealybobo

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Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.
It is way too expensive to live in nyc. People who worked in nyc but now work from home have moved to places where their salaries go a lot further.

Shuli on the Howard stern show moved to Alabama. With what he makes he’s rich in Alabama. If you can work from home why live in a city where $100,000 a year is not a lot?
And whose fault is that?

You jack up taxes, jack up regulations, jack up housing policy, jack up the police so that crime is everywhere, which increases costs on the city.... and then you say "It's too expensive to live there" as if that just fell out of the sky randomly.

No it didn't. Bad policies caused this.

And by the way, they could have had thousands of well paying jobs in NYC when Amazon built an HQ there, but AOC drove them out. Brilliant.
Hey, if you want to live or do business in ny you have to pay. Otherwise go to Alabama. Use their ports and tear up their roads.
Well that's kind of my point. They are not, and they leaving.

People are leaving NYC. That's the point. This is true everywhere.

When France implemented their wealth tax... they said the same thing. "Hey, if you want to live and do business in France, you have to pay!"

and you know what happened????


They left! They were packing up their wealthy, their businesses, and their families, and leaving.

Famously in Jamaica, when PM Manly passed all his socialist crap.... he said openly "There are six flights a day to Miami"... and people started taking the flights to Miami. They left.

You can't hurt the rich. Only yourself. It was poor people of Jamaica that end up dealing with the joblessness and high crime.

The rich left.

Same in NYC. The rich are leaving. The poor are stuck jobless, and victimized by the criminals.

So, yes.... they will leave.
Then don’t expect America to be great again. Not if you are middle class. The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.

If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.
I actually don't believe that America was ever not great. At least thus far. America has never ceased being great.

The only people who think that America has declined, are the fools who have never lived, or been elsewhere, or know people who live elsewhere.

I do. I've been to Europe. I know people who live in Europe right now. And if you think America is not better than Europe, or the rest of the world, you are crazy. You don't know what you are talking about.

People in Europe live lower standards of living, universally. Smaller houses, smaller cars, smaller appliances, less spending money, less entertainment.

There is no possible way to measure the standards of living in the rest of the world, and compare to the US, and not have the US be better.

Why do think we have millions of people trying to get into this country? It's one of the most baffling aspects of Left-wing contradictions, that you want open borders to let people freely come into the country, and at the same time claim the country is declining and everything is terrible, and America is racists and evil.

Those are mutually exclusive positions. People don't risk their lives, to get into places that are terrible.

The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

No, I don't buy that. You show me one person who walked the exact same path as their parents, and is worse off.

I'm not making the same money as my parents, but that's because I am not in the same career as my parents.

I have relatives, where their parents were wielders. Their son, became a wielder too. Their son is make more money than his parents did, when they were his age.

I know engineers, and they make more money in engineering than their parents who were engineers.

And as far as the standard of living.... no you are still crazy.

My standard of living today, is better than my parents when they were my age. By quite a bit too.

My house is bigger, than the house they had at my age. I have had central air conditioning since I was in college, in 1999. My parents didn't have air conditioning until they were in their late 50s. Microwaves, internet, computers, instapots. My parents didn't have cable TV until they were in their late 50s, and in fact, didn't even own a TV until they were in their late 40s.

I've had all of that, and smart phones, and GPS driving directions, and on and on and on.

We today, are miles and miles beyond where are parents were at the same age. You are crazy if you think otherwise. Absolutely crazy.

The poorest WORKING people today, have a higher standard of living, than the middle class of the 1970s. By a MASSIVE margin.

Now if you are living off welfare and unemployment, and not working consistently full time, then yeah, they are falling way behind, and need to get off their butts, and work for what they want.

But the poorest working people putting in full days work every day.... no they are way beyond where the middle class was in the 1970s, or even 1980s.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.
If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.


Social Security was going broke before Trump was even running for office.

You are fool if your retirement plan is to depend on Social Security.

Before any of this Covid nonsense happened, SS was going broke. Before Trump was ever elected, SS paid out so little, that you were basically going to live in poverty until you die, if Social Security was your retirement plan.

Anyone who plans to retire on Social Security is an idiot. You need to be saving for your own retirement out of your own income, like everyone else should be doing.

Social Security is the most poverty creating program in US history. Don't be stupid. Save for retirement.
We don’t have to be worse than Europe. Maybe we’re still better but not as much as we were before Reagan bush and trump.

And when I say we’re not better than we were before I mean the middle class. The rich are doing great.

Half of me is working class and half is investor class. As a worker I disagree with you. As an investor I partially agree with you. And when I agree I certainly don’t agree on your suggested remedies.
Again, factually speaking, we are way better off after the 1980s, than before.

If you telling me that the working class, TODAY.... is worse off, than the working class of the 1970s.... or before.... you are crazy. You are factually incorrect sir.

We are way way way better off than the people in the 1970s or before.

The middle class TODAY... is better off than the middle class of the 1970s.

And yes, investors are better off too. You know who is an investor? Likely.... 70% of the population?

55% of people have investments in the stock market.
65% have property investments.
15% have pensions, which are in fact investments, typically in the stock market.

And there are millions with annuities, and those are typically invested in stocks too.

And by the way, there is a connection between investment and labor. Most jobs wouldn't exist without investment.

So while someone might claim "The investor class is doing well, but the working class is not".... really? Because without the investments, hundreds of millions of jobs wouldn't exist, and those workers would be far worse off.
Honestly I grew up in the 70s and 80s in metro Detroit. Back then a guy could graduate high school and go find a job that would support a family of 5. One income. One bread winner.

Today to do as well you have to go to college and how much does that cost? So blue collar are not better off today and back in my day college was $5000 a year. I worked in the summer and saved most of my tuition. Maybe my dad had to chip in $1000 a year so I didn’t need student loans.

And honestly, for years I had a college degree but wasn’t doing as well as my dad did. I am now but that is common now especially for millennials. First generation who won’t do better than their parents.

I may make more than my dad ever did but am I better off? Fuck no. My dad has great retirement benefits through ford. And a pension. He took the buy out.

Oh yea and me. I make $100k a year give or take now. Have for the past 5 years. I’m 49. So let’s say I’ve got to at least work till I’m 62 to collect social security and Medicare. If they let me retire with those things at 62 I will I don’t care how much I lose for retiring early.

BUT. If I would have went to work at ford when I graduated highschool at 17, I’d already be getting a 30 year pension 2 years ago. At the age of 47. So even though I’m balling and have no debt, I’m still going to have to work 15 more years than if I would have just taken that union job at ford.

plus i wouldn’t have spent that $20,000 on a bachelors degree.
If I only made $100k per yr I would be depressed.
Why should people who make $60k and have $100,000 in student loan debt vote republican? You probably like that th3 ceo makes 300x what they make right?

But you, if you really make more than me, you should vote republican. But if you don’t you shouldn’t.

Arent you that fat foreign guy? Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else?
I vote Republican because Democrats tell me that men may identity as women
Ha! I was just telling a guy name unkotare how they use gay to con poor and middle class Americans into voting republican. Without these wedge issues like guns, racism, abortion these people would have no business voting republican. Republicans are not pro labor. Period.
How so?
Because republicans are against employees unionizing. Their way brought wages down.

Because republicans won’t go after illegal employers. So they arent really trying to kick illegals out. A wall. Ha!

Because trumps fixes to nafta and trade with ch8na did nothing to help labor. And only american companies a little. Only enough for trump to claim a victory.

Youre being conned
Unions are stupid. Republicans are for lower taxes and fewer regulations. You’re uneducated by your own admission so please stop trying to sound smart.
Republicans are against paying labor more too. Driving wages down. How? By sending jobs overseas and hiring illegal workers
Not true at all. Fewer regulations equates to more business openings and expansion and more jobs. Trump brought jobs back and halted corporate inversions.
More jobs but lower paying.

But I’m not so against lower wages anymore. As long as it’s not my wages. You and I make more than the average american with two kids. I’m not worrying about them anymore

but remember you admitted that if you made what they all make, your be depressed. So why should they vote like you vote when you’re for lower wages for them?
lower pay?? how so?
Look at companies like Toyota and Honda Compared to ford and gm. More temps than full time employees.

That’s just one example.

Do you even have to ask?

Republicans applaud companies who’s CEOs make the most but employees make the least.
PROOF PLEASE--you just babbled..how about some facts and figures--FOR ONCE!!!!
Look it up
We have looked it up. There is no example of lower pay.

You show me the example of lower pay. You show me the wielder that in 1970 was earning $50/hour, and today is earning $10/hour.

There is no such example anywhere. None. Zero. Even adjusted for inflation, no such example.

We have looked it up. You are wrong. This is why we are asking you to look it up, so you can educate yourself on your false beliefs.
Ford scores higher in 6 areas dummy. Overall rating, career opportunpities, work life balance, senior management, culture and values and % recommended to a friend.

Big three workers make $27 hr Toyota $25.

Keep in mind Toyota only pays what they pay because if they didn’t their employees would unionize.

Engineers at ford make $37 hr Toyota engineers make $32

Ford has 3400 temp workers. I’m looking at an article about Toyota extending plant shutdown and will stop paying 5000 temps.
What does any of that have to do with anything?

You made the claim that people are paid less today, than they were yesterday.

Are you saying that Toyota Engineers were making $37/hour and now they are making $32 an hour?

I'm not asking you if some employees are choosing to work for a company that pays less money.

Which employee was making $37/hour yesterday, or last year, or last decade, and today is making $32/hour?

Unless they suck. I've known some engineers, that honestly were not worth $15/hour.

How much was Toyota paying engineers 30 years ago? Is more... or less... than how much engineers are paid today?

And honestly, Toyota Engineers are paid $32/hour? Oh my bleeding heart..... oh the horror....

You know that German automotive engineers in Germany right now, earn less than that?

Evidence my friend. Evidence. You are complaining about better working conditions than other first world countries offer.

Engineers come here from Europe, and earn more working for Toyota.



View attachment 389136
I do not even believe you honestly.

Figures about pay scales are horribly easy to mislead with.

No two engineers are identical by any stretch. One engineer can have 10 years of experience, while another might have only 3 years of experience. Another engineer might have 15 years of experience, but in a field where there are dozens of engineers, while another engineer with only 5 years of experience might specialize in a field that few others do.

Just saying "well this group of engineers collectively is paid less or more than another group" is just ridiculous. You don't know what experience they have, what they specialize in, or anything.

They are not significantly paid less than people at Ford. If they were, no one would work there.

Overall, wages have gone up.... PERIOD. They have gone up, and what you posted doesn't contradict that.

We have the highest wages, and then highest standard of living in the world, and people need to be less spoiled, less complaining, and more grateful for what we have.
Was all this true on Obama's watch or only after Trump got into office?

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.

I'm talking about these people: the median weekly earnings are $933, or about $48,516 per year.
Who are these people? Do you know any?
Medium income is $47,000 a year. That’s what I imagine most Americans are working with.

And even though it’s probably tough to raise a family on that, $47,000 isn’t that bad. I don’t think the masses should all be making more than that.

The more I talk to you guys the more I realize things probably aren’t as bad as I think. But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table. And I don’t want government cutting my social security no matter how much I make. I’m going to want that extra $300 a month when I’m retired. Cutting my social security 20% would not be cool and that’s what republicans want to do.

And before you deny it, don’t lie. Like yesterday trump said he doesn’t want to do away with pre existing conditions but we know that’s a fucking lie

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?
I hope he does away with the ban on pre-existing conditions.

Do you want affordable health insurance for 90% of the country or not? Yes or no, dude. Because you can't get affordable health care, while being forced to pay for people who don't buy health insurance.

I was working at a place some years bad, and there was a guy that canceled his insurance, and said he'll just get insurance if he gets sick.

See, this is another case, where because you can't see how it directly effects you, then you are fine with it.

But if your health insurance payment, had it itemized to show how much you are paying for your own policy, and how many paying for people who intentionally did not buy insurance, and then got sick, and now you have to cover the cost of their care.....

You yourself would be SCREAMING to have pre-existing condition clauses.

But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table.

Every company that has allowed labor to have a seat at the table, has imploded in on itself. Do you like employees losing their jobs?

Ask the people of Toyota or Honda, if they wish they had the seat at the table like those of Chrysler before they became a subsidiary of Fiat.

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

The irony of that statement is that right-wingers routinely provide vastly more help than left-wingers, throughout the entire world, and especially in the US.

We routinely do far more to actually help people, than the left-wing. Left-wingers only demand that OTHER PEOPLE help the poor or sick.
I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!
So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?
That is up to your employer and what they negotiate with that carrier. But yes, that carrier should not have an obligation to do so, however, they likely will because they are making millions off that employer and most of the people who sign up won't have such conditions.

So let me ask you this. I have a family of four and knock on wood all healthy. I should pay the same as some guy with a family of six, who smokes, has diabetes and has a wife who is constantly at the doctor and kids too as he has so many? How is that equitable to me?
Because knock on wood don’t work. But they should reward non smokers or healthy people. That’s a great idea.
But they don’t. How about dem apples. System is broken.
Trump will fix it. Or I guess we’ll just keep the current system where you don’t only insure healthy people.

How bout this. Anyone with a pre existing can get Medicare.
 

AzogtheDefiler

The Pale Orc
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Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.
It is way too expensive to live in nyc. People who worked in nyc but now work from home have moved to places where their salaries go a lot further.

Shuli on the Howard stern show moved to Alabama. With what he makes he’s rich in Alabama. If you can work from home why live in a city where $100,000 a year is not a lot?
And whose fault is that?

You jack up taxes, jack up regulations, jack up housing policy, jack up the police so that crime is everywhere, which increases costs on the city.... and then you say "It's too expensive to live there" as if that just fell out of the sky randomly.

No it didn't. Bad policies caused this.

And by the way, they could have had thousands of well paying jobs in NYC when Amazon built an HQ there, but AOC drove them out. Brilliant.
Hey, if you want to live or do business in ny you have to pay. Otherwise go to Alabama. Use their ports and tear up their roads.
Well that's kind of my point. They are not, and they leaving.

People are leaving NYC. That's the point. This is true everywhere.

When France implemented their wealth tax... they said the same thing. "Hey, if you want to live and do business in France, you have to pay!"

and you know what happened????


They left! They were packing up their wealthy, their businesses, and their families, and leaving.

Famously in Jamaica, when PM Manly passed all his socialist crap.... he said openly "There are six flights a day to Miami"... and people started taking the flights to Miami. They left.

You can't hurt the rich. Only yourself. It was poor people of Jamaica that end up dealing with the joblessness and high crime.

The rich left.

Same in NYC. The rich are leaving. The poor are stuck jobless, and victimized by the criminals.

So, yes.... they will leave.
Then don’t expect America to be great again. Not if you are middle class. The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.

If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.
I actually don't believe that America was ever not great. At least thus far. America has never ceased being great.

The only people who think that America has declined, are the fools who have never lived, or been elsewhere, or know people who live elsewhere.

I do. I've been to Europe. I know people who live in Europe right now. And if you think America is not better than Europe, or the rest of the world, you are crazy. You don't know what you are talking about.

People in Europe live lower standards of living, universally. Smaller houses, smaller cars, smaller appliances, less spending money, less entertainment.

There is no possible way to measure the standards of living in the rest of the world, and compare to the US, and not have the US be better.

Why do think we have millions of people trying to get into this country? It's one of the most baffling aspects of Left-wing contradictions, that you want open borders to let people freely come into the country, and at the same time claim the country is declining and everything is terrible, and America is racists and evil.

Those are mutually exclusive positions. People don't risk their lives, to get into places that are terrible.

The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

No, I don't buy that. You show me one person who walked the exact same path as their parents, and is worse off.

I'm not making the same money as my parents, but that's because I am not in the same career as my parents.

I have relatives, where their parents were wielders. Their son, became a wielder too. Their son is make more money than his parents did, when they were his age.

I know engineers, and they make more money in engineering than their parents who were engineers.

And as far as the standard of living.... no you are still crazy.

My standard of living today, is better than my parents when they were my age. By quite a bit too.

My house is bigger, than the house they had at my age. I have had central air conditioning since I was in college, in 1999. My parents didn't have air conditioning until they were in their late 50s. Microwaves, internet, computers, instapots. My parents didn't have cable TV until they were in their late 50s, and in fact, didn't even own a TV until they were in their late 40s.

I've had all of that, and smart phones, and GPS driving directions, and on and on and on.

We today, are miles and miles beyond where are parents were at the same age. You are crazy if you think otherwise. Absolutely crazy.

The poorest WORKING people today, have a higher standard of living, than the middle class of the 1970s. By a MASSIVE margin.

Now if you are living off welfare and unemployment, and not working consistently full time, then yeah, they are falling way behind, and need to get off their butts, and work for what they want.

But the poorest working people putting in full days work every day.... no they are way beyond where the middle class was in the 1970s, or even 1980s.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.
If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.


Social Security was going broke before Trump was even running for office.

You are fool if your retirement plan is to depend on Social Security.

Before any of this Covid nonsense happened, SS was going broke. Before Trump was ever elected, SS paid out so little, that you were basically going to live in poverty until you die, if Social Security was your retirement plan.

Anyone who plans to retire on Social Security is an idiot. You need to be saving for your own retirement out of your own income, like everyone else should be doing.

Social Security is the most poverty creating program in US history. Don't be stupid. Save for retirement.
We don’t have to be worse than Europe. Maybe we’re still better but not as much as we were before Reagan bush and trump.

And when I say we’re not better than we were before I mean the middle class. The rich are doing great.

Half of me is working class and half is investor class. As a worker I disagree with you. As an investor I partially agree with you. And when I agree I certainly don’t agree on your suggested remedies.
Again, factually speaking, we are way better off after the 1980s, than before.

If you telling me that the working class, TODAY.... is worse off, than the working class of the 1970s.... or before.... you are crazy. You are factually incorrect sir.

We are way way way better off than the people in the 1970s or before.

The middle class TODAY... is better off than the middle class of the 1970s.

And yes, investors are better off too. You know who is an investor? Likely.... 70% of the population?

55% of people have investments in the stock market.
65% have property investments.
15% have pensions, which are in fact investments, typically in the stock market.

And there are millions with annuities, and those are typically invested in stocks too.

And by the way, there is a connection between investment and labor. Most jobs wouldn't exist without investment.

So while someone might claim "The investor class is doing well, but the working class is not".... really? Because without the investments, hundreds of millions of jobs wouldn't exist, and those workers would be far worse off.
Honestly I grew up in the 70s and 80s in metro Detroit. Back then a guy could graduate high school and go find a job that would support a family of 5. One income. One bread winner.

Today to do as well you have to go to college and how much does that cost? So blue collar are not better off today and back in my day college was $5000 a year. I worked in the summer and saved most of my tuition. Maybe my dad had to chip in $1000 a year so I didn’t need student loans.

And honestly, for years I had a college degree but wasn’t doing as well as my dad did. I am now but that is common now especially for millennials. First generation who won’t do better than their parents.

I may make more than my dad ever did but am I better off? Fuck no. My dad has great retirement benefits through ford. And a pension. He took the buy out.

Oh yea and me. I make $100k a year give or take now. Have for the past 5 years. I’m 49. So let’s say I’ve got to at least work till I’m 62 to collect social security and Medicare. If they let me retire with those things at 62 I will I don’t care how much I lose for retiring early.

BUT. If I would have went to work at ford when I graduated highschool at 17, I’d already be getting a 30 year pension 2 years ago. At the age of 47. So even though I’m balling and have no debt, I’m still going to have to work 15 more years than if I would have just taken that union job at ford.

plus i wouldn’t have spent that $20,000 on a bachelors degree.
If I only made $100k per yr I would be depressed.
Why should people who make $60k and have $100,000 in student loan debt vote republican? You probably like that th3 ceo makes 300x what they make right?

But you, if you really make more than me, you should vote republican. But if you don’t you shouldn’t.

Arent you that fat foreign guy? Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else?
I vote Republican because Democrats tell me that men may identity as women
Ha! I was just telling a guy name unkotare how they use gay to con poor and middle class Americans into voting republican. Without these wedge issues like guns, racism, abortion these people would have no business voting republican. Republicans are not pro labor. Period.
How so?
Because republicans are against employees unionizing. Their way brought wages down.

Because republicans won’t go after illegal employers. So they arent really trying to kick illegals out. A wall. Ha!

Because trumps fixes to nafta and trade with ch8na did nothing to help labor. And only american companies a little. Only enough for trump to claim a victory.

Youre being conned
Unions are stupid. Republicans are for lower taxes and fewer regulations. You’re uneducated by your own admission so please stop trying to sound smart.
Republicans are against paying labor more too. Driving wages down. How? By sending jobs overseas and hiring illegal workers
Not true at all. Fewer regulations equates to more business openings and expansion and more jobs. Trump brought jobs back and halted corporate inversions.
More jobs but lower paying.

But I’m not so against lower wages anymore. As long as it’s not my wages. You and I make more than the average american with two kids. I’m not worrying about them anymore

but remember you admitted that if you made what they all make, your be depressed. So why should they vote like you vote when you’re for lower wages for them?
lower pay?? how so?
Look at companies like Toyota and Honda Compared to ford and gm. More temps than full time employees.

That’s just one example.

Do you even have to ask?

Republicans applaud companies who’s CEOs make the most but employees make the least.
PROOF PLEASE--you just babbled..how about some facts and figures--FOR ONCE!!!!
Look it up
We have looked it up. There is no example of lower pay.

You show me the example of lower pay. You show me the wielder that in 1970 was earning $50/hour, and today is earning $10/hour.

There is no such example anywhere. None. Zero. Even adjusted for inflation, no such example.

We have looked it up. You are wrong. This is why we are asking you to look it up, so you can educate yourself on your false beliefs.
Ford scores higher in 6 areas dummy. Overall rating, career opportunpities, work life balance, senior management, culture and values and % recommended to a friend.

Big three workers make $27 hr Toyota $25.

Keep in mind Toyota only pays what they pay because if they didn’t their employees would unionize.

Engineers at ford make $37 hr Toyota engineers make $32

Ford has 3400 temp workers. I’m looking at an article about Toyota extending plant shutdown and will stop paying 5000 temps.
What does any of that have to do with anything?

You made the claim that people are paid less today, than they were yesterday.

Are you saying that Toyota Engineers were making $37/hour and now they are making $32 an hour?

I'm not asking you if some employees are choosing to work for a company that pays less money.

Which employee was making $37/hour yesterday, or last year, or last decade, and today is making $32/hour?

Unless they suck. I've known some engineers, that honestly were not worth $15/hour.

How much was Toyota paying engineers 30 years ago? Is more... or less... than how much engineers are paid today?

And honestly, Toyota Engineers are paid $32/hour? Oh my bleeding heart..... oh the horror....

You know that German automotive engineers in Germany right now, earn less than that?

Evidence my friend. Evidence. You are complaining about better working conditions than other first world countries offer.

Engineers come here from Europe, and earn more working for Toyota.



View attachment 389136
I do not even believe you honestly.

Figures about pay scales are horribly easy to mislead with.

No two engineers are identical by any stretch. One engineer can have 10 years of experience, while another might have only 3 years of experience. Another engineer might have 15 years of experience, but in a field where there are dozens of engineers, while another engineer with only 5 years of experience might specialize in a field that few others do.

Just saying "well this group of engineers collectively is paid less or more than another group" is just ridiculous. You don't know what experience they have, what they specialize in, or anything.

They are not significantly paid less than people at Ford. If they were, no one would work there.

Overall, wages have gone up.... PERIOD. They have gone up, and what you posted doesn't contradict that.

We have the highest wages, and then highest standard of living in the world, and people need to be less spoiled, less complaining, and more grateful for what we have.
Was all this true on Obama's watch or only after Trump got into office?

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.

I'm talking about these people: the median weekly earnings are $933, or about $48,516 per year.
Who are these people? Do you know any?
Medium income is $47,000 a year. That’s what I imagine most Americans are working with.

And even though it’s probably tough to raise a family on that, $47,000 isn’t that bad. I don’t think the masses should all be making more than that.

The more I talk to you guys the more I realize things probably aren’t as bad as I think. But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table. And I don’t want government cutting my social security no matter how much I make. I’m going to want that extra $300 a month when I’m retired. Cutting my social security 20% would not be cool and that’s what republicans want to do.

And before you deny it, don’t lie. Like yesterday trump said he doesn’t want to do away with pre existing conditions but we know that’s a fucking lie

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?
I hope he does away with the ban on pre-existing conditions.

Do you want affordable health insurance for 90% of the country or not? Yes or no, dude. Because you can't get affordable health care, while being forced to pay for people who don't buy health insurance.

I was working at a place some years bad, and there was a guy that canceled his insurance, and said he'll just get insurance if he gets sick.

See, this is another case, where because you can't see how it directly effects you, then you are fine with it.

But if your health insurance payment, had it itemized to show how much you are paying for your own policy, and how many paying for people who intentionally did not buy insurance, and then got sick, and now you have to cover the cost of their care.....

You yourself would be SCREAMING to have pre-existing condition clauses.

But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table.

Every company that has allowed labor to have a seat at the table, has imploded in on itself. Do you like employees losing their jobs?

Ask the people of Toyota or Honda, if they wish they had the seat at the table like those of Chrysler before they became a subsidiary of Fiat.

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

The irony of that statement is that right-wingers routinely provide vastly more help than left-wingers, throughout the entire world, and especially in the US.

We routinely do far more to actually help people, than the left-wing. Left-wingers only demand that OTHER PEOPLE help the poor or sick.
I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!
So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?
That is up to your employer and what they negotiate with that carrier. But yes, that carrier should not have an obligation to do so, however, they likely will because they are making millions off that employer and most of the people who sign up won't have such conditions.

So let me ask you this. I have a family of four and knock on wood all healthy. I should pay the same as some guy with a family of six, who smokes, has diabetes and has a wife who is constantly at the doctor and kids too as he has so many? How is that equitable to me?
Because knock on wood don’t work. But they should reward non smokers or healthy people. That’s a great idea.
But they don’t. How about dem apples. System is broken.
Trump will fix it. Or I guess we’ll just keep the current system where you don’t only insure healthy people.

How bout this. Anyone with a pre existing can get Medicare.
Sure...or Medicaid
 

Andylusion

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I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!
So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?
That is up to your employer and what they negotiate with that carrier. But yes, that carrier should not have an obligation to do so, however, they likely will because they are making millions off that employer and most of the people who sign up won't have such conditions.

So let me ask you this. I have a family of four and knock on wood all healthy. I should pay the same as some guy with a family of six, who smokes, has diabetes and has a wife who is constantly at the doctor and kids too as he has so many? How is that equitable to me?
Because knock on wood don’t work. But they should reward non smokers or healthy people. That’s a great idea.
Then charity. I'm all for helping people who genuinely need help.

I'm against forcing people, using the violence of government.

And the irony is, you say that they should reward people... well if everyone gets the reward except for the people that are unhealthy... then you are penalizing people who live unhealthy.

But you say you don't want them to have to pay the true cost of their health care, because you said earlier....

"Isn’t that the purpose of insurance? We all pay a little so when something bad happens to a couple of us, it doesn’t break them."

If they don't pay the high cost of their choices, someone else must be forced to.

You can't have it both ways. You want to pay less for health care...... but you don't want them paying so much for health care.

Those are mutually exclusive goals. The cost of health care treatment, doesn't magically go down, because you force the insurance companies to cover people with pre-existing conditions.

So.... someone has to pay it. And that someone is you.

It's not going to be "Pay a little". It's going to be pay a lot.

Name one system anywhere that was changed to cover more people, and cost less. No such system exists. When MassHealth was created by Mitt Romney, the cost of health care went up, not down.

You certainly don't see prices going down in Europe. What you see going down, is the quality of the care. This is why Canadians come to the US routinely, to pay for health care out of pocket, after paying way higher prices for health care in taxes.

You want to make health care more affordable? Deregulate the entire system.
 

Andylusion

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Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.
It is way too expensive to live in nyc. People who worked in nyc but now work from home have moved to places where their salaries go a lot further.

Shuli on the Howard stern show moved to Alabama. With what he makes he’s rich in Alabama. If you can work from home why live in a city where $100,000 a year is not a lot?
And whose fault is that?

You jack up taxes, jack up regulations, jack up housing policy, jack up the police so that crime is everywhere, which increases costs on the city.... and then you say "It's too expensive to live there" as if that just fell out of the sky randomly.

No it didn't. Bad policies caused this.

And by the way, they could have had thousands of well paying jobs in NYC when Amazon built an HQ there, but AOC drove them out. Brilliant.
Hey, if you want to live or do business in ny you have to pay. Otherwise go to Alabama. Use their ports and tear up their roads.
Well that's kind of my point. They are not, and they leaving.

People are leaving NYC. That's the point. This is true everywhere.

When France implemented their wealth tax... they said the same thing. "Hey, if you want to live and do business in France, you have to pay!"

and you know what happened????


They left! They were packing up their wealthy, their businesses, and their families, and leaving.

Famously in Jamaica, when PM Manly passed all his socialist crap.... he said openly "There are six flights a day to Miami"... and people started taking the flights to Miami. They left.

You can't hurt the rich. Only yourself. It was poor people of Jamaica that end up dealing with the joblessness and high crime.

The rich left.

Same in NYC. The rich are leaving. The poor are stuck jobless, and victimized by the criminals.

So, yes.... they will leave.
Then don’t expect America to be great again. Not if you are middle class. The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.

If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.
I actually don't believe that America was ever not great. At least thus far. America has never ceased being great.

The only people who think that America has declined, are the fools who have never lived, or been elsewhere, or know people who live elsewhere.

I do. I've been to Europe. I know people who live in Europe right now. And if you think America is not better than Europe, or the rest of the world, you are crazy. You don't know what you are talking about.

People in Europe live lower standards of living, universally. Smaller houses, smaller cars, smaller appliances, less spending money, less entertainment.

There is no possible way to measure the standards of living in the rest of the world, and compare to the US, and not have the US be better.

Why do think we have millions of people trying to get into this country? It's one of the most baffling aspects of Left-wing contradictions, that you want open borders to let people freely come into the country, and at the same time claim the country is declining and everything is terrible, and America is racists and evil.

Those are mutually exclusive positions. People don't risk their lives, to get into places that are terrible.

The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

No, I don't buy that. You show me one person who walked the exact same path as their parents, and is worse off.

I'm not making the same money as my parents, but that's because I am not in the same career as my parents.

I have relatives, where their parents were wielders. Their son, became a wielder too. Their son is make more money than his parents did, when they were his age.

I know engineers, and they make more money in engineering than their parents who were engineers.

And as far as the standard of living.... no you are still crazy.

My standard of living today, is better than my parents when they were my age. By quite a bit too.

My house is bigger, than the house they had at my age. I have had central air conditioning since I was in college, in 1999. My parents didn't have air conditioning until they were in their late 50s. Microwaves, internet, computers, instapots. My parents didn't have cable TV until they were in their late 50s, and in fact, didn't even own a TV until they were in their late 40s.

I've had all of that, and smart phones, and GPS driving directions, and on and on and on.

We today, are miles and miles beyond where are parents were at the same age. You are crazy if you think otherwise. Absolutely crazy.

The poorest WORKING people today, have a higher standard of living, than the middle class of the 1970s. By a MASSIVE margin.

Now if you are living off welfare and unemployment, and not working consistently full time, then yeah, they are falling way behind, and need to get off their butts, and work for what they want.

But the poorest working people putting in full days work every day.... no they are way beyond where the middle class was in the 1970s, or even 1980s.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.
If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.


Social Security was going broke before Trump was even running for office.

You are fool if your retirement plan is to depend on Social Security.

Before any of this Covid nonsense happened, SS was going broke. Before Trump was ever elected, SS paid out so little, that you were basically going to live in poverty until you die, if Social Security was your retirement plan.

Anyone who plans to retire on Social Security is an idiot. You need to be saving for your own retirement out of your own income, like everyone else should be doing.

Social Security is the most poverty creating program in US history. Don't be stupid. Save for retirement.
We don’t have to be worse than Europe. Maybe we’re still better but not as much as we were before Reagan bush and trump.

And when I say we’re not better than we were before I mean the middle class. The rich are doing great.

Half of me is working class and half is investor class. As a worker I disagree with you. As an investor I partially agree with you. And when I agree I certainly don’t agree on your suggested remedies.
Again, factually speaking, we are way better off after the 1980s, than before.

If you telling me that the working class, TODAY.... is worse off, than the working class of the 1970s.... or before.... you are crazy. You are factually incorrect sir.

We are way way way better off than the people in the 1970s or before.

The middle class TODAY... is better off than the middle class of the 1970s.

And yes, investors are better off too. You know who is an investor? Likely.... 70% of the population?

55% of people have investments in the stock market.
65% have property investments.
15% have pensions, which are in fact investments, typically in the stock market.

And there are millions with annuities, and those are typically invested in stocks too.

And by the way, there is a connection between investment and labor. Most jobs wouldn't exist without investment.

So while someone might claim "The investor class is doing well, but the working class is not".... really? Because without the investments, hundreds of millions of jobs wouldn't exist, and those workers would be far worse off.
Honestly I grew up in the 70s and 80s in metro Detroit. Back then a guy could graduate high school and go find a job that would support a family of 5. One income. One bread winner.

Today to do as well you have to go to college and how much does that cost? So blue collar are not better off today and back in my day college was $5000 a year. I worked in the summer and saved most of my tuition. Maybe my dad had to chip in $1000 a year so I didn’t need student loans.

And honestly, for years I had a college degree but wasn’t doing as well as my dad did. I am now but that is common now especially for millennials. First generation who won’t do better than their parents.

I may make more than my dad ever did but am I better off? Fuck no. My dad has great retirement benefits through ford. And a pension. He took the buy out.

Oh yea and me. I make $100k a year give or take now. Have for the past 5 years. I’m 49. So let’s say I’ve got to at least work till I’m 62 to collect social security and Medicare. If they let me retire with those things at 62 I will I don’t care how much I lose for retiring early.

BUT. If I would have went to work at ford when I graduated highschool at 17, I’d already be getting a 30 year pension 2 years ago. At the age of 47. So even though I’m balling and have no debt, I’m still going to have to work 15 more years than if I would have just taken that union job at ford.

plus i wouldn’t have spent that $20,000 on a bachelors degree.
If I only made $100k per yr I would be depressed.
Why should people who make $60k and have $100,000 in student loan debt vote republican? You probably like that th3 ceo makes 300x what they make right?

But you, if you really make more than me, you should vote republican. But if you don’t you shouldn’t.

Arent you that fat foreign guy? Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else?
I vote Republican because Democrats tell me that men may identity as women
Ha! I was just telling a guy name unkotare how they use gay to con poor and middle class Americans into voting republican. Without these wedge issues like guns, racism, abortion these people would have no business voting republican. Republicans are not pro labor. Period.
How so?
Because republicans are against employees unionizing. Their way brought wages down.

Because republicans won’t go after illegal employers. So they arent really trying to kick illegals out. A wall. Ha!

Because trumps fixes to nafta and trade with ch8na did nothing to help labor. And only american companies a little. Only enough for trump to claim a victory.

Youre being conned
Unions are stupid. Republicans are for lower taxes and fewer regulations. You’re uneducated by your own admission so please stop trying to sound smart.
Republicans are against paying labor more too. Driving wages down. How? By sending jobs overseas and hiring illegal workers
Not true at all. Fewer regulations equates to more business openings and expansion and more jobs. Trump brought jobs back and halted corporate inversions.
More jobs but lower paying.

But I’m not so against lower wages anymore. As long as it’s not my wages. You and I make more than the average american with two kids. I’m not worrying about them anymore

but remember you admitted that if you made what they all make, your be depressed. So why should they vote like you vote when you’re for lower wages for them?
lower pay?? how so?
Look at companies like Toyota and Honda Compared to ford and gm. More temps than full time employees.

That’s just one example.

Do you even have to ask?

Republicans applaud companies who’s CEOs make the most but employees make the least.
PROOF PLEASE--you just babbled..how about some facts and figures--FOR ONCE!!!!
Look it up
We have looked it up. There is no example of lower pay.

You show me the example of lower pay. You show me the wielder that in 1970 was earning $50/hour, and today is earning $10/hour.

There is no such example anywhere. None. Zero. Even adjusted for inflation, no such example.

We have looked it up. You are wrong. This is why we are asking you to look it up, so you can educate yourself on your false beliefs.
Ford scores higher in 6 areas dummy. Overall rating, career opportunpities, work life balance, senior management, culture and values and % recommended to a friend.

Big three workers make $27 hr Toyota $25.

Keep in mind Toyota only pays what they pay because if they didn’t their employees would unionize.

Engineers at ford make $37 hr Toyota engineers make $32

Ford has 3400 temp workers. I’m looking at an article about Toyota extending plant shutdown and will stop paying 5000 temps.
What does any of that have to do with anything?

You made the claim that people are paid less today, than they were yesterday.

Are you saying that Toyota Engineers were making $37/hour and now they are making $32 an hour?

I'm not asking you if some employees are choosing to work for a company that pays less money.

Which employee was making $37/hour yesterday, or last year, or last decade, and today is making $32/hour?

Unless they suck. I've known some engineers, that honestly were not worth $15/hour.

How much was Toyota paying engineers 30 years ago? Is more... or less... than how much engineers are paid today?

And honestly, Toyota Engineers are paid $32/hour? Oh my bleeding heart..... oh the horror....

You know that German automotive engineers in Germany right now, earn less than that?

Evidence my friend. Evidence. You are complaining about better working conditions than other first world countries offer.

Engineers come here from Europe, and earn more working for Toyota.



View attachment 389136
I do not even believe you honestly.

Figures about pay scales are horribly easy to mislead with.

No two engineers are identical by any stretch. One engineer can have 10 years of experience, while another might have only 3 years of experience. Another engineer might have 15 years of experience, but in a field where there are dozens of engineers, while another engineer with only 5 years of experience might specialize in a field that few others do.

Just saying "well this group of engineers collectively is paid less or more than another group" is just ridiculous. You don't know what experience they have, what they specialize in, or anything.

They are not significantly paid less than people at Ford. If they were, no one would work there.

Overall, wages have gone up.... PERIOD. They have gone up, and what you posted doesn't contradict that.

We have the highest wages, and then highest standard of living in the world, and people need to be less spoiled, less complaining, and more grateful for what we have.
Was all this true on Obama's watch or only after Trump got into office?

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.

I'm talking about these people: the median weekly earnings are $933, or about $48,516 per year.
Who are these people? Do you know any?
Medium income is $47,000 a year. That’s what I imagine most Americans are working with.

And even though it’s probably tough to raise a family on that, $47,000 isn’t that bad. I don’t think the masses should all be making more than that.

The more I talk to you guys the more I realize things probably aren’t as bad as I think. But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table. And I don’t want government cutting my social security no matter how much I make. I’m going to want that extra $300 a month when I’m retired. Cutting my social security 20% would not be cool and that’s what republicans want to do.

And before you deny it, don’t lie. Like yesterday trump said he doesn’t want to do away with pre existing conditions but we know that’s a fucking lie

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?
I hope he does away with the ban on pre-existing conditions.

Do you want affordable health insurance for 90% of the country or not? Yes or no, dude. Because you can't get affordable health care, while being forced to pay for people who don't buy health insurance.

I was working at a place some years bad, and there was a guy that canceled his insurance, and said he'll just get insurance if he gets sick.

See, this is another case, where because you can't see how it directly effects you, then you are fine with it.

But if your health insurance payment, had it itemized to show how much you are paying for your own policy, and how many paying for people who intentionally did not buy insurance, and then got sick, and now you have to cover the cost of their care.....

You yourself would be SCREAMING to have pre-existing condition clauses.

But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table.

Every company that has allowed labor to have a seat at the table, has imploded in on itself. Do you like employees losing their jobs?

Ask the people of Toyota or Honda, if they wish they had the seat at the table like those of Chrysler before they became a subsidiary of Fiat.

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

The irony of that statement is that right-wingers routinely provide vastly more help than left-wingers, throughout the entire world, and especially in the US.

We routinely do far more to actually help people, than the left-wing. Left-wingers only demand that OTHER PEOPLE help the poor or sick.
I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!
So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?
That is up to your employer and what they negotiate with that carrier. But yes, that carrier should not have an obligation to do so, however, they likely will because they are making millions off that employer and most of the people who sign up won't have such conditions.

So let me ask you this. I have a family of four and knock on wood all healthy. I should pay the same as some guy with a family of six, who smokes, has diabetes and has a wife who is constantly at the doctor and kids too as he has so many? How is that equitable to me?
Because knock on wood don’t work. But they should reward non smokers or healthy people. That’s a great idea.
But they don’t. How about dem apples. System is broken.
Trump will fix it. Or I guess we’ll just keep the current system where you don’t only insure healthy people.

How bout this. Anyone with a pre existing can get Medicare.
Medicare is going broke right now. You want to jack up taxes on the lower and middle class to pay for it? How much more in taxes do you want to pay? 5% more? 10% more?
 

AzogtheDefiler

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Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.
It is way too expensive to live in nyc. People who worked in nyc but now work from home have moved to places where their salaries go a lot further.

Shuli on the Howard stern show moved to Alabama. With what he makes he’s rich in Alabama. If you can work from home why live in a city where $100,000 a year is not a lot?
And whose fault is that?

You jack up taxes, jack up regulations, jack up housing policy, jack up the police so that crime is everywhere, which increases costs on the city.... and then you say "It's too expensive to live there" as if that just fell out of the sky randomly.

No it didn't. Bad policies caused this.

And by the way, they could have had thousands of well paying jobs in NYC when Amazon built an HQ there, but AOC drove them out. Brilliant.
Hey, if you want to live or do business in ny you have to pay. Otherwise go to Alabama. Use their ports and tear up their roads.
Well that's kind of my point. They are not, and they leaving.

People are leaving NYC. That's the point. This is true everywhere.

When France implemented their wealth tax... they said the same thing. "Hey, if you want to live and do business in France, you have to pay!"

and you know what happened????


They left! They were packing up their wealthy, their businesses, and their families, and leaving.

Famously in Jamaica, when PM Manly passed all his socialist crap.... he said openly "There are six flights a day to Miami"... and people started taking the flights to Miami. They left.

You can't hurt the rich. Only yourself. It was poor people of Jamaica that end up dealing with the joblessness and high crime.

The rich left.

Same in NYC. The rich are leaving. The poor are stuck jobless, and victimized by the criminals.

So, yes.... they will leave.
Then don’t expect America to be great again. Not if you are middle class. The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.

If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.
I actually don't believe that America was ever not great. At least thus far. America has never ceased being great.

The only people who think that America has declined, are the fools who have never lived, or been elsewhere, or know people who live elsewhere.

I do. I've been to Europe. I know people who live in Europe right now. And if you think America is not better than Europe, or the rest of the world, you are crazy. You don't know what you are talking about.

People in Europe live lower standards of living, universally. Smaller houses, smaller cars, smaller appliances, less spending money, less entertainment.

There is no possible way to measure the standards of living in the rest of the world, and compare to the US, and not have the US be better.

Why do think we have millions of people trying to get into this country? It's one of the most baffling aspects of Left-wing contradictions, that you want open borders to let people freely come into the country, and at the same time claim the country is declining and everything is terrible, and America is racists and evil.

Those are mutually exclusive positions. People don't risk their lives, to get into places that are terrible.

The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

No, I don't buy that. You show me one person who walked the exact same path as their parents, and is worse off.

I'm not making the same money as my parents, but that's because I am not in the same career as my parents.

I have relatives, where their parents were wielders. Their son, became a wielder too. Their son is make more money than his parents did, when they were his age.

I know engineers, and they make more money in engineering than their parents who were engineers.

And as far as the standard of living.... no you are still crazy.

My standard of living today, is better than my parents when they were my age. By quite a bit too.

My house is bigger, than the house they had at my age. I have had central air conditioning since I was in college, in 1999. My parents didn't have air conditioning until they were in their late 50s. Microwaves, internet, computers, instapots. My parents didn't have cable TV until they were in their late 50s, and in fact, didn't even own a TV until they were in their late 40s.

I've had all of that, and smart phones, and GPS driving directions, and on and on and on.

We today, are miles and miles beyond where are parents were at the same age. You are crazy if you think otherwise. Absolutely crazy.

The poorest WORKING people today, have a higher standard of living, than the middle class of the 1970s. By a MASSIVE margin.

Now if you are living off welfare and unemployment, and not working consistently full time, then yeah, they are falling way behind, and need to get off their butts, and work for what they want.

But the poorest working people putting in full days work every day.... no they are way beyond where the middle class was in the 1970s, or even 1980s.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.
If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.


Social Security was going broke before Trump was even running for office.

You are fool if your retirement plan is to depend on Social Security.

Before any of this Covid nonsense happened, SS was going broke. Before Trump was ever elected, SS paid out so little, that you were basically going to live in poverty until you die, if Social Security was your retirement plan.

Anyone who plans to retire on Social Security is an idiot. You need to be saving for your own retirement out of your own income, like everyone else should be doing.

Social Security is the most poverty creating program in US history. Don't be stupid. Save for retirement.
We don’t have to be worse than Europe. Maybe we’re still better but not as much as we were before Reagan bush and trump.

And when I say we’re not better than we were before I mean the middle class. The rich are doing great.

Half of me is working class and half is investor class. As a worker I disagree with you. As an investor I partially agree with you. And when I agree I certainly don’t agree on your suggested remedies.
Again, factually speaking, we are way better off after the 1980s, than before.

If you telling me that the working class, TODAY.... is worse off, than the working class of the 1970s.... or before.... you are crazy. You are factually incorrect sir.

We are way way way better off than the people in the 1970s or before.

The middle class TODAY... is better off than the middle class of the 1970s.

And yes, investors are better off too. You know who is an investor? Likely.... 70% of the population?

55% of people have investments in the stock market.
65% have property investments.
15% have pensions, which are in fact investments, typically in the stock market.

And there are millions with annuities, and those are typically invested in stocks too.

And by the way, there is a connection between investment and labor. Most jobs wouldn't exist without investment.

So while someone might claim "The investor class is doing well, but the working class is not".... really? Because without the investments, hundreds of millions of jobs wouldn't exist, and those workers would be far worse off.
Honestly I grew up in the 70s and 80s in metro Detroit. Back then a guy could graduate high school and go find a job that would support a family of 5. One income. One bread winner.

Today to do as well you have to go to college and how much does that cost? So blue collar are not better off today and back in my day college was $5000 a year. I worked in the summer and saved most of my tuition. Maybe my dad had to chip in $1000 a year so I didn’t need student loans.

And honestly, for years I had a college degree but wasn’t doing as well as my dad did. I am now but that is common now especially for millennials. First generation who won’t do better than their parents.

I may make more than my dad ever did but am I better off? Fuck no. My dad has great retirement benefits through ford. And a pension. He took the buy out.

Oh yea and me. I make $100k a year give or take now. Have for the past 5 years. I’m 49. So let’s say I’ve got to at least work till I’m 62 to collect social security and Medicare. If they let me retire with those things at 62 I will I don’t care how much I lose for retiring early.

BUT. If I would have went to work at ford when I graduated highschool at 17, I’d already be getting a 30 year pension 2 years ago. At the age of 47. So even though I’m balling and have no debt, I’m still going to have to work 15 more years than if I would have just taken that union job at ford.

plus i wouldn’t have spent that $20,000 on a bachelors degree.
If I only made $100k per yr I would be depressed.
Why should people who make $60k and have $100,000 in student loan debt vote republican? You probably like that th3 ceo makes 300x what they make right?

But you, if you really make more than me, you should vote republican. But if you don’t you shouldn’t.

Arent you that fat foreign guy? Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else?
I vote Republican because Democrats tell me that men may identity as women
Ha! I was just telling a guy name unkotare how they use gay to con poor and middle class Americans into voting republican. Without these wedge issues like guns, racism, abortion these people would have no business voting republican. Republicans are not pro labor. Period.
How so?
Because republicans are against employees unionizing. Their way brought wages down.

Because republicans won’t go after illegal employers. So they arent really trying to kick illegals out. A wall. Ha!

Because trumps fixes to nafta and trade with ch8na did nothing to help labor. And only american companies a little. Only enough for trump to claim a victory.

Youre being conned
Unions are stupid. Republicans are for lower taxes and fewer regulations. You’re uneducated by your own admission so please stop trying to sound smart.
Republicans are against paying labor more too. Driving wages down. How? By sending jobs overseas and hiring illegal workers
Not true at all. Fewer regulations equates to more business openings and expansion and more jobs. Trump brought jobs back and halted corporate inversions.
More jobs but lower paying.

But I’m not so against lower wages anymore. As long as it’s not my wages. You and I make more than the average american with two kids. I’m not worrying about them anymore

but remember you admitted that if you made what they all make, your be depressed. So why should they vote like you vote when you’re for lower wages for them?
lower pay?? how so?
Look at companies like Toyota and Honda Compared to ford and gm. More temps than full time employees.

That’s just one example.

Do you even have to ask?

Republicans applaud companies who’s CEOs make the most but employees make the least.
PROOF PLEASE--you just babbled..how about some facts and figures--FOR ONCE!!!!
Look it up
We have looked it up. There is no example of lower pay.

You show me the example of lower pay. You show me the wielder that in 1970 was earning $50/hour, and today is earning $10/hour.

There is no such example anywhere. None. Zero. Even adjusted for inflation, no such example.

We have looked it up. You are wrong. This is why we are asking you to look it up, so you can educate yourself on your false beliefs.
Ford scores higher in 6 areas dummy. Overall rating, career opportunpities, work life balance, senior management, culture and values and % recommended to a friend.

Big three workers make $27 hr Toyota $25.

Keep in mind Toyota only pays what they pay because if they didn’t their employees would unionize.

Engineers at ford make $37 hr Toyota engineers make $32

Ford has 3400 temp workers. I’m looking at an article about Toyota extending plant shutdown and will stop paying 5000 temps.
What does any of that have to do with anything?

You made the claim that people are paid less today, than they were yesterday.

Are you saying that Toyota Engineers were making $37/hour and now they are making $32 an hour?

I'm not asking you if some employees are choosing to work for a company that pays less money.

Which employee was making $37/hour yesterday, or last year, or last decade, and today is making $32/hour?

Unless they suck. I've known some engineers, that honestly were not worth $15/hour.

How much was Toyota paying engineers 30 years ago? Is more... or less... than how much engineers are paid today?

And honestly, Toyota Engineers are paid $32/hour? Oh my bleeding heart..... oh the horror....

You know that German automotive engineers in Germany right now, earn less than that?

Evidence my friend. Evidence. You are complaining about better working conditions than other first world countries offer.

Engineers come here from Europe, and earn more working for Toyota.



View attachment 389136
I do not even believe you honestly.

Figures about pay scales are horribly easy to mislead with.

No two engineers are identical by any stretch. One engineer can have 10 years of experience, while another might have only 3 years of experience. Another engineer might have 15 years of experience, but in a field where there are dozens of engineers, while another engineer with only 5 years of experience might specialize in a field that few others do.

Just saying "well this group of engineers collectively is paid less or more than another group" is just ridiculous. You don't know what experience they have, what they specialize in, or anything.

They are not significantly paid less than people at Ford. If they were, no one would work there.

Overall, wages have gone up.... PERIOD. They have gone up, and what you posted doesn't contradict that.

We have the highest wages, and then highest standard of living in the world, and people need to be less spoiled, less complaining, and more grateful for what we have.
Was all this true on Obama's watch or only after Trump got into office?

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.

I'm talking about these people: the median weekly earnings are $933, or about $48,516 per year.
Who are these people? Do you know any?
Medium income is $47,000 a year. That’s what I imagine most Americans are working with.

And even though it’s probably tough to raise a family on that, $47,000 isn’t that bad. I don’t think the masses should all be making more than that.

The more I talk to you guys the more I realize things probably aren’t as bad as I think. But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table. And I don’t want government cutting my social security no matter how much I make. I’m going to want that extra $300 a month when I’m retired. Cutting my social security 20% would not be cool and that’s what republicans want to do.

And before you deny it, don’t lie. Like yesterday trump said he doesn’t want to do away with pre existing conditions but we know that’s a fucking lie

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?
I hope he does away with the ban on pre-existing conditions.

Do you want affordable health insurance for 90% of the country or not? Yes or no, dude. Because you can't get affordable health care, while being forced to pay for people who don't buy health insurance.

I was working at a place some years bad, and there was a guy that canceled his insurance, and said he'll just get insurance if he gets sick.

See, this is another case, where because you can't see how it directly effects you, then you are fine with it.

But if your health insurance payment, had it itemized to show how much you are paying for your own policy, and how many paying for people who intentionally did not buy insurance, and then got sick, and now you have to cover the cost of their care.....

You yourself would be SCREAMING to have pre-existing condition clauses.

But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table.

Every company that has allowed labor to have a seat at the table, has imploded in on itself. Do you like employees losing their jobs?

Ask the people of Toyota or Honda, if they wish they had the seat at the table like those of Chrysler before they became a subsidiary of Fiat.

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

The irony of that statement is that right-wingers routinely provide vastly more help than left-wingers, throughout the entire world, and especially in the US.

We routinely do far more to actually help people, than the left-wing. Left-wingers only demand that OTHER PEOPLE help the poor or sick.
I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!
So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?
That is up to your employer and what they negotiate with that carrier. But yes, that carrier should not have an obligation to do so, however, they likely will because they are making millions off that employer and most of the people who sign up won't have such conditions.

So let me ask you this. I have a family of four and knock on wood all healthy. I should pay the same as some guy with a family of six, who smokes, has diabetes and has a wife who is constantly at the doctor and kids too as he has so many? How is that equitable to me?
Because knock on wood don’t work. But they should reward non smokers or healthy people. That’s a great idea.
But they don’t. How about dem apples. System is broken.
Trump will fix it. Or I guess we’ll just keep the current system where you don’t only insure healthy people.

How bout this. Anyone with a pre existing can get Medicare.
Medicare is going broke right now. You want to jack up taxes on the lower and middle class to pay for it? How much more in taxes do you want to pay? 5% more? 10% more?
Ton of fraud in Medicaid. I d start there and I d get the administrators out of the way. Create a free market in healthcare as happened with LASIK. Now LASIK is very affordable due to market forces.
 

sealybobo

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I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!
So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?
That is up to your employer and what they negotiate with that carrier. But yes, that carrier should not have an obligation to do so, however, they likely will because they are making millions off that employer and most of the people who sign up won't have such conditions.

So let me ask you this. I have a family of four and knock on wood all healthy. I should pay the same as some guy with a family of six, who smokes, has diabetes and has a wife who is constantly at the doctor and kids too as he has so many? How is that equitable to me?
Because knock on wood don’t work. But they should reward non smokers or healthy people. That’s a great idea.
Then charity. I'm all for helping people who genuinely need help.

I'm against forcing people, using the violence of government.

And the irony is, you say that they should reward people... well if everyone gets the reward except for the people that are unhealthy... then you are penalizing people who live unhealthy.

But you say you don't want them to have to pay the true cost of their health care, because you said earlier....

"Isn’t that the purpose of insurance? We all pay a little so when something bad happens to a couple of us, it doesn’t break them."

If they don't pay the high cost of their choices, someone else must be forced to.

You can't have it both ways. You want to pay less for health care...... but you don't want them paying so much for health care.

Those are mutually exclusive goals. The cost of health care treatment, doesn't magically go down, because you force the insurance companies to cover people with pre-existing conditions.

So.... someone has to pay it. And that someone is you.

It's not going to be "Pay a little". It's going to be pay a lot.

Name one system anywhere that was changed to cover more people, and cost less. No such system exists. When MassHealth was created by Mitt Romney, the cost of health care went up, not down.

You certainly don't see prices going down in Europe. What you see going down, is the quality of the care. This is why Canadians come to the US routinely, to pay for health care out of pocket, after paying way higher prices for health care in taxes.

You want to make health care more affordable? Deregulate the entire system.
All I know is we all had grandmothers and grandfathers who racked up hundreds of thousands of dollars dying. None of us want to get that bill that’s what Medicare is for. Thank god.
 

Andylusion

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Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.
It is way too expensive to live in nyc. People who worked in nyc but now work from home have moved to places where their salaries go a lot further.

Shuli on the Howard stern show moved to Alabama. With what he makes he’s rich in Alabama. If you can work from home why live in a city where $100,000 a year is not a lot?
And whose fault is that?

You jack up taxes, jack up regulations, jack up housing policy, jack up the police so that crime is everywhere, which increases costs on the city.... and then you say "It's too expensive to live there" as if that just fell out of the sky randomly.

No it didn't. Bad policies caused this.

And by the way, they could have had thousands of well paying jobs in NYC when Amazon built an HQ there, but AOC drove them out. Brilliant.
Hey, if you want to live or do business in ny you have to pay. Otherwise go to Alabama. Use their ports and tear up their roads.
Well that's kind of my point. They are not, and they leaving.

People are leaving NYC. That's the point. This is true everywhere.

When France implemented their wealth tax... they said the same thing. "Hey, if you want to live and do business in France, you have to pay!"

and you know what happened????


They left! They were packing up their wealthy, their businesses, and their families, and leaving.

Famously in Jamaica, when PM Manly passed all his socialist crap.... he said openly "There are six flights a day to Miami"... and people started taking the flights to Miami. They left.

You can't hurt the rich. Only yourself. It was poor people of Jamaica that end up dealing with the joblessness and high crime.

The rich left.

Same in NYC. The rich are leaving. The poor are stuck jobless, and victimized by the criminals.

So, yes.... they will leave.
Then don’t expect America to be great again. Not if you are middle class. The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.

If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.
I actually don't believe that America was ever not great. At least thus far. America has never ceased being great.

The only people who think that America has declined, are the fools who have never lived, or been elsewhere, or know people who live elsewhere.

I do. I've been to Europe. I know people who live in Europe right now. And if you think America is not better than Europe, or the rest of the world, you are crazy. You don't know what you are talking about.

People in Europe live lower standards of living, universally. Smaller houses, smaller cars, smaller appliances, less spending money, less entertainment.

There is no possible way to measure the standards of living in the rest of the world, and compare to the US, and not have the US be better.

Why do think we have millions of people trying to get into this country? It's one of the most baffling aspects of Left-wing contradictions, that you want open borders to let people freely come into the country, and at the same time claim the country is declining and everything is terrible, and America is racists and evil.

Those are mutually exclusive positions. People don't risk their lives, to get into places that are terrible.

The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

No, I don't buy that. You show me one person who walked the exact same path as their parents, and is worse off.

I'm not making the same money as my parents, but that's because I am not in the same career as my parents.

I have relatives, where their parents were wielders. Their son, became a wielder too. Their son is make more money than his parents did, when they were his age.

I know engineers, and they make more money in engineering than their parents who were engineers.

And as far as the standard of living.... no you are still crazy.

My standard of living today, is better than my parents when they were my age. By quite a bit too.

My house is bigger, than the house they had at my age. I have had central air conditioning since I was in college, in 1999. My parents didn't have air conditioning until they were in their late 50s. Microwaves, internet, computers, instapots. My parents didn't have cable TV until they were in their late 50s, and in fact, didn't even own a TV until they were in their late 40s.

I've had all of that, and smart phones, and GPS driving directions, and on and on and on.

We today, are miles and miles beyond where are parents were at the same age. You are crazy if you think otherwise. Absolutely crazy.

The poorest WORKING people today, have a higher standard of living, than the middle class of the 1970s. By a MASSIVE margin.

Now if you are living off welfare and unemployment, and not working consistently full time, then yeah, they are falling way behind, and need to get off their butts, and work for what they want.

But the poorest working people putting in full days work every day.... no they are way beyond where the middle class was in the 1970s, or even 1980s.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.
If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.


Social Security was going broke before Trump was even running for office.

You are fool if your retirement plan is to depend on Social Security.

Before any of this Covid nonsense happened, SS was going broke. Before Trump was ever elected, SS paid out so little, that you were basically going to live in poverty until you die, if Social Security was your retirement plan.

Anyone who plans to retire on Social Security is an idiot. You need to be saving for your own retirement out of your own income, like everyone else should be doing.

Social Security is the most poverty creating program in US history. Don't be stupid. Save for retirement.
We don’t have to be worse than Europe. Maybe we’re still better but not as much as we were before Reagan bush and trump.

And when I say we’re not better than we were before I mean the middle class. The rich are doing great.

Half of me is working class and half is investor class. As a worker I disagree with you. As an investor I partially agree with you. And when I agree I certainly don’t agree on your suggested remedies.
Again, factually speaking, we are way better off after the 1980s, than before.

If you telling me that the working class, TODAY.... is worse off, than the working class of the 1970s.... or before.... you are crazy. You are factually incorrect sir.

We are way way way better off than the people in the 1970s or before.

The middle class TODAY... is better off than the middle class of the 1970s.

And yes, investors are better off too. You know who is an investor? Likely.... 70% of the population?

55% of people have investments in the stock market.
65% have property investments.
15% have pensions, which are in fact investments, typically in the stock market.

And there are millions with annuities, and those are typically invested in stocks too.

And by the way, there is a connection between investment and labor. Most jobs wouldn't exist without investment.

So while someone might claim "The investor class is doing well, but the working class is not".... really? Because without the investments, hundreds of millions of jobs wouldn't exist, and those workers would be far worse off.
Honestly I grew up in the 70s and 80s in metro Detroit. Back then a guy could graduate high school and go find a job that would support a family of 5. One income. One bread winner.

Today to do as well you have to go to college and how much does that cost? So blue collar are not better off today and back in my day college was $5000 a year. I worked in the summer and saved most of my tuition. Maybe my dad had to chip in $1000 a year so I didn’t need student loans.

And honestly, for years I had a college degree but wasn’t doing as well as my dad did. I am now but that is common now especially for millennials. First generation who won’t do better than their parents.

I may make more than my dad ever did but am I better off? Fuck no. My dad has great retirement benefits through ford. And a pension. He took the buy out.

Oh yea and me. I make $100k a year give or take now. Have for the past 5 years. I’m 49. So let’s say I’ve got to at least work till I’m 62 to collect social security and Medicare. If they let me retire with those things at 62 I will I don’t care how much I lose for retiring early.

BUT. If I would have went to work at ford when I graduated highschool at 17, I’d already be getting a 30 year pension 2 years ago. At the age of 47. So even though I’m balling and have no debt, I’m still going to have to work 15 more years than if I would have just taken that union job at ford.

plus i wouldn’t have spent that $20,000 on a bachelors degree.
If I only made $100k per yr I would be depressed.
Why should people who make $60k and have $100,000 in student loan debt vote republican? You probably like that th3 ceo makes 300x what they make right?

But you, if you really make more than me, you should vote republican. But if you don’t you shouldn’t.

Arent you that fat foreign guy? Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else?
I vote Republican because Democrats tell me that men may identity as women
Ha! I was just telling a guy name unkotare how they use gay to con poor and middle class Americans into voting republican. Without these wedge issues like guns, racism, abortion these people would have no business voting republican. Republicans are not pro labor. Period.
How so?
Because republicans are against employees unionizing. Their way brought wages down.

Because republicans won’t go after illegal employers. So they arent really trying to kick illegals out. A wall. Ha!

Because trumps fixes to nafta and trade with ch8na did nothing to help labor. And only american companies a little. Only enough for trump to claim a victory.

Youre being conned
Unions are stupid. Republicans are for lower taxes and fewer regulations. You’re uneducated by your own admission so please stop trying to sound smart.
Republicans are against paying labor more too. Driving wages down. How? By sending jobs overseas and hiring illegal workers
Not true at all. Fewer regulations equates to more business openings and expansion and more jobs. Trump brought jobs back and halted corporate inversions.
More jobs but lower paying.

But I’m not so against lower wages anymore. As long as it’s not my wages. You and I make more than the average american with two kids. I’m not worrying about them anymore

but remember you admitted that if you made what they all make, your be depressed. So why should they vote like you vote when you’re for lower wages for them?
lower pay?? how so?
Look at companies like Toyota and Honda Compared to ford and gm. More temps than full time employees.

That’s just one example.

Do you even have to ask?

Republicans applaud companies who’s CEOs make the most but employees make the least.
PROOF PLEASE--you just babbled..how about some facts and figures--FOR ONCE!!!!
Look it up
We have looked it up. There is no example of lower pay.

You show me the example of lower pay. You show me the wielder that in 1970 was earning $50/hour, and today is earning $10/hour.

There is no such example anywhere. None. Zero. Even adjusted for inflation, no such example.

We have looked it up. You are wrong. This is why we are asking you to look it up, so you can educate yourself on your false beliefs.
Ford scores higher in 6 areas dummy. Overall rating, career opportunpities, work life balance, senior management, culture and values and % recommended to a friend.

Big three workers make $27 hr Toyota $25.

Keep in mind Toyota only pays what they pay because if they didn’t their employees would unionize.

Engineers at ford make $37 hr Toyota engineers make $32

Ford has 3400 temp workers. I’m looking at an article about Toyota extending plant shutdown and will stop paying 5000 temps.
What does any of that have to do with anything?

You made the claim that people are paid less today, than they were yesterday.

Are you saying that Toyota Engineers were making $37/hour and now they are making $32 an hour?

I'm not asking you if some employees are choosing to work for a company that pays less money.

Which employee was making $37/hour yesterday, or last year, or last decade, and today is making $32/hour?

Unless they suck. I've known some engineers, that honestly were not worth $15/hour.

How much was Toyota paying engineers 30 years ago? Is more... or less... than how much engineers are paid today?

And honestly, Toyota Engineers are paid $32/hour? Oh my bleeding heart..... oh the horror....

You know that German automotive engineers in Germany right now, earn less than that?

Evidence my friend. Evidence. You are complaining about better working conditions than other first world countries offer.

Engineers come here from Europe, and earn more working for Toyota.



View attachment 389136
I do not even believe you honestly.

Figures about pay scales are horribly easy to mislead with.

No two engineers are identical by any stretch. One engineer can have 10 years of experience, while another might have only 3 years of experience. Another engineer might have 15 years of experience, but in a field where there are dozens of engineers, while another engineer with only 5 years of experience might specialize in a field that few others do.

Just saying "well this group of engineers collectively is paid less or more than another group" is just ridiculous. You don't know what experience they have, what they specialize in, or anything.

They are not significantly paid less than people at Ford. If they were, no one would work there.

Overall, wages have gone up.... PERIOD. They have gone up, and what you posted doesn't contradict that.

We have the highest wages, and then highest standard of living in the world, and people need to be less spoiled, less complaining, and more grateful for what we have.
Was all this true on Obama's watch or only after Trump got into office?

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.

I'm talking about these people: the median weekly earnings are $933, or about $48,516 per year.
Who are these people? Do you know any?
Medium income is $47,000 a year. That’s what I imagine most Americans are working with.

And even though it’s probably tough to raise a family on that, $47,000 isn’t that bad. I don’t think the masses should all be making more than that.

The more I talk to you guys the more I realize things probably aren’t as bad as I think. But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table. And I don’t want government cutting my social security no matter how much I make. I’m going to want that extra $300 a month when I’m retired. Cutting my social security 20% would not be cool and that’s what republicans want to do.

And before you deny it, don’t lie. Like yesterday trump said he doesn’t want to do away with pre existing conditions but we know that’s a fucking lie

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?
I hope he does away with the ban on pre-existing conditions.

Do you want affordable health insurance for 90% of the country or not? Yes or no, dude. Because you can't get affordable health care, while being forced to pay for people who don't buy health insurance.

I was working at a place some years bad, and there was a guy that canceled his insurance, and said he'll just get insurance if he gets sick.

See, this is another case, where because you can't see how it directly effects you, then you are fine with it.

But if your health insurance payment, had it itemized to show how much you are paying for your own policy, and how many paying for people who intentionally did not buy insurance, and then got sick, and now you have to cover the cost of their care.....

You yourself would be SCREAMING to have pre-existing condition clauses.

But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table.

Every company that has allowed labor to have a seat at the table, has imploded in on itself. Do you like employees losing their jobs?

Ask the people of Toyota or Honda, if they wish they had the seat at the table like those of Chrysler before they became a subsidiary of Fiat.

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

The irony of that statement is that right-wingers routinely provide vastly more help than left-wingers, throughout the entire world, and especially in the US.

We routinely do far more to actually help people, than the left-wing. Left-wingers only demand that OTHER PEOPLE help the poor or sick.
I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!
So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?
That is up to your employer and what they negotiate with that carrier. But yes, that carrier should not have an obligation to do so, however, they likely will because they are making millions off that employer and most of the people who sign up won't have such conditions.

So let me ask you this. I have a family of four and knock on wood all healthy. I should pay the same as some guy with a family of six, who smokes, has diabetes and has a wife who is constantly at the doctor and kids too as he has so many? How is that equitable to me?
Because knock on wood don’t work. But they should reward non smokers or healthy people. That’s a great idea.
But they don’t. How about dem apples. System is broken.
Trump will fix it. Or I guess we’ll just keep the current system where you don’t only insure healthy people.

How bout this. Anyone with a pre existing can get Medicare.
Medicare is going broke right now. You want to jack up taxes on the lower and middle class to pay for it? How much more in taxes do you want to pay? 5% more? 10% more?
Ton of fraud in Medicaid. I d start there and I d get the administrators out of the way. Create a free market in healthcare as happened with LASIK. Now LASIK is very affordable due to market forces.
Exactly. I don't think there is any way to avoid fraud in Medicaid or Medicare.

The reason is because there is far more political risk to trying to reduce fraud, than to let it go.

And the fact that so few complain about the endless fraud is proof of that.

If one single person is denied a legitimate medicare claim, that would be splashed on every single news outlet, and on every partisan talking pundit show, and all over the social media site.

It would be a massive blow to whoever was in office, Democrat or Republican.

So there is zero incentive to fix fraud in the system.

Further, there is actually incentive to allow fraud. Remember, the way you get more money in government.... is by running out of money.

It's the exact opposite of how things work in the private sector. If you are in a company, and your department makes a product for less cost, that increase sales, and benefits more people, so that you have tons of money saved, and increase your profits... the company is going to flood that department with more funding.

The incentive is to increase funding to things that create more value, and benefit more people.

In government, blowing as much money as you possible can, is how you get more money.

At the end of the year, if you report you has a surplus of cash, the government will cut your funding, and move that money elsewhere to some other pet project, or to payback political supporters.

But if that end of the year, you have zero left, then you can claim you need more money to help more people.... even if the primary reason you have zero left over is because you blew the money on crap, or paid it out in fraudulent claims.

So the idea that you are going reduce fraud in a government system.... no, I don't think so.

They need to privatize health care, and virtually eliminate Medicare and Medicaid.
 

sealybobo

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Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.
It is way too expensive to live in nyc. People who worked in nyc but now work from home have moved to places where their salaries go a lot further.

Shuli on the Howard stern show moved to Alabama. With what he makes he’s rich in Alabama. If you can work from home why live in a city where $100,000 a year is not a lot?
And whose fault is that?

You jack up taxes, jack up regulations, jack up housing policy, jack up the police so that crime is everywhere, which increases costs on the city.... and then you say "It's too expensive to live there" as if that just fell out of the sky randomly.

No it didn't. Bad policies caused this.

And by the way, they could have had thousands of well paying jobs in NYC when Amazon built an HQ there, but AOC drove them out. Brilliant.
Hey, if you want to live or do business in ny you have to pay. Otherwise go to Alabama. Use their ports and tear up their roads.
Well that's kind of my point. They are not, and they leaving.

People are leaving NYC. That's the point. This is true everywhere.

When France implemented their wealth tax... they said the same thing. "Hey, if you want to live and do business in France, you have to pay!"

and you know what happened????


They left! They were packing up their wealthy, their businesses, and their families, and leaving.

Famously in Jamaica, when PM Manly passed all his socialist crap.... he said openly "There are six flights a day to Miami"... and people started taking the flights to Miami. They left.

You can't hurt the rich. Only yourself. It was poor people of Jamaica that end up dealing with the joblessness and high crime.

The rich left.

Same in NYC. The rich are leaving. The poor are stuck jobless, and victimized by the criminals.

So, yes.... they will leave.
Then don’t expect America to be great again. Not if you are middle class. The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.

If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.
I actually don't believe that America was ever not great. At least thus far. America has never ceased being great.

The only people who think that America has declined, are the fools who have never lived, or been elsewhere, or know people who live elsewhere.

I do. I've been to Europe. I know people who live in Europe right now. And if you think America is not better than Europe, or the rest of the world, you are crazy. You don't know what you are talking about.

People in Europe live lower standards of living, universally. Smaller houses, smaller cars, smaller appliances, less spending money, less entertainment.

There is no possible way to measure the standards of living in the rest of the world, and compare to the US, and not have the US be better.

Why do think we have millions of people trying to get into this country? It's one of the most baffling aspects of Left-wing contradictions, that you want open borders to let people freely come into the country, and at the same time claim the country is declining and everything is terrible, and America is racists and evil.

Those are mutually exclusive positions. People don't risk their lives, to get into places that are terrible.

The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

No, I don't buy that. You show me one person who walked the exact same path as their parents, and is worse off.

I'm not making the same money as my parents, but that's because I am not in the same career as my parents.

I have relatives, where their parents were wielders. Their son, became a wielder too. Their son is make more money than his parents did, when they were his age.

I know engineers, and they make more money in engineering than their parents who were engineers.

And as far as the standard of living.... no you are still crazy.

My standard of living today, is better than my parents when they were my age. By quite a bit too.

My house is bigger, than the house they had at my age. I have had central air conditioning since I was in college, in 1999. My parents didn't have air conditioning until they were in their late 50s. Microwaves, internet, computers, instapots. My parents didn't have cable TV until they were in their late 50s, and in fact, didn't even own a TV until they were in their late 40s.

I've had all of that, and smart phones, and GPS driving directions, and on and on and on.

We today, are miles and miles beyond where are parents were at the same age. You are crazy if you think otherwise. Absolutely crazy.

The poorest WORKING people today, have a higher standard of living, than the middle class of the 1970s. By a MASSIVE margin.

Now if you are living off welfare and unemployment, and not working consistently full time, then yeah, they are falling way behind, and need to get off their butts, and work for what they want.

But the poorest working people putting in full days work every day.... no they are way beyond where the middle class was in the 1970s, or even 1980s.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.
If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.


Social Security was going broke before Trump was even running for office.

You are fool if your retirement plan is to depend on Social Security.

Before any of this Covid nonsense happened, SS was going broke. Before Trump was ever elected, SS paid out so little, that you were basically going to live in poverty until you die, if Social Security was your retirement plan.

Anyone who plans to retire on Social Security is an idiot. You need to be saving for your own retirement out of your own income, like everyone else should be doing.

Social Security is the most poverty creating program in US history. Don't be stupid. Save for retirement.
We don’t have to be worse than Europe. Maybe we’re still better but not as much as we were before Reagan bush and trump.

And when I say we’re not better than we were before I mean the middle class. The rich are doing great.

Half of me is working class and half is investor class. As a worker I disagree with you. As an investor I partially agree with you. And when I agree I certainly don’t agree on your suggested remedies.
Again, factually speaking, we are way better off after the 1980s, than before.

If you telling me that the working class, TODAY.... is worse off, than the working class of the 1970s.... or before.... you are crazy. You are factually incorrect sir.

We are way way way better off than the people in the 1970s or before.

The middle class TODAY... is better off than the middle class of the 1970s.

And yes, investors are better off too. You know who is an investor? Likely.... 70% of the population?

55% of people have investments in the stock market.
65% have property investments.
15% have pensions, which are in fact investments, typically in the stock market.

And there are millions with annuities, and those are typically invested in stocks too.

And by the way, there is a connection between investment and labor. Most jobs wouldn't exist without investment.

So while someone might claim "The investor class is doing well, but the working class is not".... really? Because without the investments, hundreds of millions of jobs wouldn't exist, and those workers would be far worse off.
Honestly I grew up in the 70s and 80s in metro Detroit. Back then a guy could graduate high school and go find a job that would support a family of 5. One income. One bread winner.

Today to do as well you have to go to college and how much does that cost? So blue collar are not better off today and back in my day college was $5000 a year. I worked in the summer and saved most of my tuition. Maybe my dad had to chip in $1000 a year so I didn’t need student loans.

And honestly, for years I had a college degree but wasn’t doing as well as my dad did. I am now but that is common now especially for millennials. First generation who won’t do better than their parents.

I may make more than my dad ever did but am I better off? Fuck no. My dad has great retirement benefits through ford. And a pension. He took the buy out.

Oh yea and me. I make $100k a year give or take now. Have for the past 5 years. I’m 49. So let’s say I’ve got to at least work till I’m 62 to collect social security and Medicare. If they let me retire with those things at 62 I will I don’t care how much I lose for retiring early.

BUT. If I would have went to work at ford when I graduated highschool at 17, I’d already be getting a 30 year pension 2 years ago. At the age of 47. So even though I’m balling and have no debt, I’m still going to have to work 15 more years than if I would have just taken that union job at ford.

plus i wouldn’t have spent that $20,000 on a bachelors degree.
If I only made $100k per yr I would be depressed.
Why should people who make $60k and have $100,000 in student loan debt vote republican? You probably like that th3 ceo makes 300x what they make right?

But you, if you really make more than me, you should vote republican. But if you don’t you shouldn’t.

Arent you that fat foreign guy? Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else?
I vote Republican because Democrats tell me that men may identity as women
Ha! I was just telling a guy name unkotare how they use gay to con poor and middle class Americans into voting republican. Without these wedge issues like guns, racism, abortion these people would have no business voting republican. Republicans are not pro labor. Period.
How so?
Because republicans are against employees unionizing. Their way brought wages down.

Because republicans won’t go after illegal employers. So they arent really trying to kick illegals out. A wall. Ha!

Because trumps fixes to nafta and trade with ch8na did nothing to help labor. And only american companies a little. Only enough for trump to claim a victory.

Youre being conned
Unions are stupid. Republicans are for lower taxes and fewer regulations. You’re uneducated by your own admission so please stop trying to sound smart.
Republicans are against paying labor more too. Driving wages down. How? By sending jobs overseas and hiring illegal workers
Not true at all. Fewer regulations equates to more business openings and expansion and more jobs. Trump brought jobs back and halted corporate inversions.
More jobs but lower paying.

But I’m not so against lower wages anymore. As long as it’s not my wages. You and I make more than the average american with two kids. I’m not worrying about them anymore

but remember you admitted that if you made what they all make, your be depressed. So why should they vote like you vote when you’re for lower wages for them?
lower pay?? how so?
Look at companies like Toyota and Honda Compared to ford and gm. More temps than full time employees.

That’s just one example.

Do you even have to ask?

Republicans applaud companies who’s CEOs make the most but employees make the least.
PROOF PLEASE--you just babbled..how about some facts and figures--FOR ONCE!!!!
Look it up
We have looked it up. There is no example of lower pay.

You show me the example of lower pay. You show me the wielder that in 1970 was earning $50/hour, and today is earning $10/hour.

There is no such example anywhere. None. Zero. Even adjusted for inflation, no such example.

We have looked it up. You are wrong. This is why we are asking you to look it up, so you can educate yourself on your false beliefs.
Ford scores higher in 6 areas dummy. Overall rating, career opportunpities, work life balance, senior management, culture and values and % recommended to a friend.

Big three workers make $27 hr Toyota $25.

Keep in mind Toyota only pays what they pay because if they didn’t their employees would unionize.

Engineers at ford make $37 hr Toyota engineers make $32

Ford has 3400 temp workers. I’m looking at an article about Toyota extending plant shutdown and will stop paying 5000 temps.
What does any of that have to do with anything?

You made the claim that people are paid less today, than they were yesterday.

Are you saying that Toyota Engineers were making $37/hour and now they are making $32 an hour?

I'm not asking you if some employees are choosing to work for a company that pays less money.

Which employee was making $37/hour yesterday, or last year, or last decade, and today is making $32/hour?

Unless they suck. I've known some engineers, that honestly were not worth $15/hour.

How much was Toyota paying engineers 30 years ago? Is more... or less... than how much engineers are paid today?

And honestly, Toyota Engineers are paid $32/hour? Oh my bleeding heart..... oh the horror....

You know that German automotive engineers in Germany right now, earn less than that?

Evidence my friend. Evidence. You are complaining about better working conditions than other first world countries offer.

Engineers come here from Europe, and earn more working for Toyota.



View attachment 389136
I do not even believe you honestly.

Figures about pay scales are horribly easy to mislead with.

No two engineers are identical by any stretch. One engineer can have 10 years of experience, while another might have only 3 years of experience. Another engineer might have 15 years of experience, but in a field where there are dozens of engineers, while another engineer with only 5 years of experience might specialize in a field that few others do.

Just saying "well this group of engineers collectively is paid less or more than another group" is just ridiculous. You don't know what experience they have, what they specialize in, or anything.

They are not significantly paid less than people at Ford. If they were, no one would work there.

Overall, wages have gone up.... PERIOD. They have gone up, and what you posted doesn't contradict that.

We have the highest wages, and then highest standard of living in the world, and people need to be less spoiled, less complaining, and more grateful for what we have.
Was all this true on Obama's watch or only after Trump got into office?

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.

I'm talking about these people: the median weekly earnings are $933, or about $48,516 per year.
Who are these people? Do you know any?
Medium income is $47,000 a year. That’s what I imagine most Americans are working with.

And even though it’s probably tough to raise a family on that, $47,000 isn’t that bad. I don’t think the masses should all be making more than that.

The more I talk to you guys the more I realize things probably aren’t as bad as I think. But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table. And I don’t want government cutting my social security no matter how much I make. I’m going to want that extra $300 a month when I’m retired. Cutting my social security 20% would not be cool and that’s what republicans want to do.

And before you deny it, don’t lie. Like yesterday trump said he doesn’t want to do away with pre existing conditions but we know that’s a fucking lie

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?
I hope he does away with the ban on pre-existing conditions.

Do you want affordable health insurance for 90% of the country or not? Yes or no, dude. Because you can't get affordable health care, while being forced to pay for people who don't buy health insurance.

I was working at a place some years bad, and there was a guy that canceled his insurance, and said he'll just get insurance if he gets sick.

See, this is another case, where because you can't see how it directly effects you, then you are fine with it.

But if your health insurance payment, had it itemized to show how much you are paying for your own policy, and how many paying for people who intentionally did not buy insurance, and then got sick, and now you have to cover the cost of their care.....

You yourself would be SCREAMING to have pre-existing condition clauses.

But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table.

Every company that has allowed labor to have a seat at the table, has imploded in on itself. Do you like employees losing their jobs?

Ask the people of Toyota or Honda, if they wish they had the seat at the table like those of Chrysler before they became a subsidiary of Fiat.

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

The irony of that statement is that right-wingers routinely provide vastly more help than left-wingers, throughout the entire world, and especially in the US.

We routinely do far more to actually help people, than the left-wing. Left-wingers only demand that OTHER PEOPLE help the poor or sick.
I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!
So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?
That is up to your employer and what they negotiate with that carrier. But yes, that carrier should not have an obligation to do so, however, they likely will because they are making millions off that employer and most of the people who sign up won't have such conditions.

So let me ask you this. I have a family of four and knock on wood all healthy. I should pay the same as some guy with a family of six, who smokes, has diabetes and has a wife who is constantly at the doctor and kids too as he has so many? How is that equitable to me?
Because knock on wood don’t work. But they should reward non smokers or healthy people. That’s a great idea.
But they don’t. How about dem apples. System is broken.
Trump will fix it. Or I guess we’ll just keep the current system where you don’t only insure healthy people.

How bout this. Anyone with a pre existing can get Medicare.
Medicare is going broke right now. You want to jack up taxes on the lower and middle class to pay for it? How much more in taxes do you want to pay? 5% more? 10% more?
Ton of fraud in Medicaid. I d start there and I d get the administrators out of the way. Create a free market in healthcare as happened with LASIK. Now LASIK is very affordable due to market forces.
I know 5 people on disability. Of all of them, one truly deserves it. She got in an accident and she’s no right in the head. She was making good money she didn’t ask for or deserve her situation. The others are all losers. Or their health problems ar3 their own fault.

Bu5 one just told me she gets $1200 a month but he’s to pay $500 for all her healthcare so $700 probably gets eaten up with bills. I don’t know how she’s going to be able to continue living on her own. Financially she can’t afford to live here. She said her brother has a finished basement so eventually she’ll probably do that.

So each of these people is costing us $12,000 a year. Geez
 

AzogtheDefiler

The Pale Orc
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Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.
It is way too expensive to live in nyc. People who worked in nyc but now work from home have moved to places where their salaries go a lot further.

Shuli on the Howard stern show moved to Alabama. With what he makes he’s rich in Alabama. If you can work from home why live in a city where $100,000 a year is not a lot?
And whose fault is that?

You jack up taxes, jack up regulations, jack up housing policy, jack up the police so that crime is everywhere, which increases costs on the city.... and then you say "It's too expensive to live there" as if that just fell out of the sky randomly.

No it didn't. Bad policies caused this.

And by the way, they could have had thousands of well paying jobs in NYC when Amazon built an HQ there, but AOC drove them out. Brilliant.
Hey, if you want to live or do business in ny you have to pay. Otherwise go to Alabama. Use their ports and tear up their roads.
Well that's kind of my point. They are not, and they leaving.

People are leaving NYC. That's the point. This is true everywhere.

When France implemented their wealth tax... they said the same thing. "Hey, if you want to live and do business in France, you have to pay!"

and you know what happened????


They left! They were packing up their wealthy, their businesses, and their families, and leaving.

Famously in Jamaica, when PM Manly passed all his socialist crap.... he said openly "There are six flights a day to Miami"... and people started taking the flights to Miami. They left.

You can't hurt the rich. Only yourself. It was poor people of Jamaica that end up dealing with the joblessness and high crime.

The rich left.

Same in NYC. The rich are leaving. The poor are stuck jobless, and victimized by the criminals.

So, yes.... they will leave.
Then don’t expect America to be great again. Not if you are middle class. The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.

If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.
I actually don't believe that America was ever not great. At least thus far. America has never ceased being great.

The only people who think that America has declined, are the fools who have never lived, or been elsewhere, or know people who live elsewhere.

I do. I've been to Europe. I know people who live in Europe right now. And if you think America is not better than Europe, or the rest of the world, you are crazy. You don't know what you are talking about.

People in Europe live lower standards of living, universally. Smaller houses, smaller cars, smaller appliances, less spending money, less entertainment.

There is no possible way to measure the standards of living in the rest of the world, and compare to the US, and not have the US be better.

Why do think we have millions of people trying to get into this country? It's one of the most baffling aspects of Left-wing contradictions, that you want open borders to let people freely come into the country, and at the same time claim the country is declining and everything is terrible, and America is racists and evil.

Those are mutually exclusive positions. People don't risk their lives, to get into places that are terrible.

The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

No, I don't buy that. You show me one person who walked the exact same path as their parents, and is worse off.

I'm not making the same money as my parents, but that's because I am not in the same career as my parents.

I have relatives, where their parents were wielders. Their son, became a wielder too. Their son is make more money than his parents did, when they were his age.

I know engineers, and they make more money in engineering than their parents who were engineers.

And as far as the standard of living.... no you are still crazy.

My standard of living today, is better than my parents when they were my age. By quite a bit too.

My house is bigger, than the house they had at my age. I have had central air conditioning since I was in college, in 1999. My parents didn't have air conditioning until they were in their late 50s. Microwaves, internet, computers, instapots. My parents didn't have cable TV until they were in their late 50s, and in fact, didn't even own a TV until they were in their late 40s.

I've had all of that, and smart phones, and GPS driving directions, and on and on and on.

We today, are miles and miles beyond where are parents were at the same age. You are crazy if you think otherwise. Absolutely crazy.

The poorest WORKING people today, have a higher standard of living, than the middle class of the 1970s. By a MASSIVE margin.

Now if you are living off welfare and unemployment, and not working consistently full time, then yeah, they are falling way behind, and need to get off their butts, and work for what they want.

But the poorest working people putting in full days work every day.... no they are way beyond where the middle class was in the 1970s, or even 1980s.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.
If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.


Social Security was going broke before Trump was even running for office.

You are fool if your retirement plan is to depend on Social Security.

Before any of this Covid nonsense happened, SS was going broke. Before Trump was ever elected, SS paid out so little, that you were basically going to live in poverty until you die, if Social Security was your retirement plan.

Anyone who plans to retire on Social Security is an idiot. You need to be saving for your own retirement out of your own income, like everyone else should be doing.

Social Security is the most poverty creating program in US history. Don't be stupid. Save for retirement.
We don’t have to be worse than Europe. Maybe we’re still better but not as much as we were before Reagan bush and trump.

And when I say we’re not better than we were before I mean the middle class. The rich are doing great.

Half of me is working class and half is investor class. As a worker I disagree with you. As an investor I partially agree with you. And when I agree I certainly don’t agree on your suggested remedies.
Again, factually speaking, we are way better off after the 1980s, than before.

If you telling me that the working class, TODAY.... is worse off, than the working class of the 1970s.... or before.... you are crazy. You are factually incorrect sir.

We are way way way better off than the people in the 1970s or before.

The middle class TODAY... is better off than the middle class of the 1970s.

And yes, investors are better off too. You know who is an investor? Likely.... 70% of the population?

55% of people have investments in the stock market.
65% have property investments.
15% have pensions, which are in fact investments, typically in the stock market.

And there are millions with annuities, and those are typically invested in stocks too.

And by the way, there is a connection between investment and labor. Most jobs wouldn't exist without investment.

So while someone might claim "The investor class is doing well, but the working class is not".... really? Because without the investments, hundreds of millions of jobs wouldn't exist, and those workers would be far worse off.
Honestly I grew up in the 70s and 80s in metro Detroit. Back then a guy could graduate high school and go find a job that would support a family of 5. One income. One bread winner.

Today to do as well you have to go to college and how much does that cost? So blue collar are not better off today and back in my day college was $5000 a year. I worked in the summer and saved most of my tuition. Maybe my dad had to chip in $1000 a year so I didn’t need student loans.

And honestly, for years I had a college degree but wasn’t doing as well as my dad did. I am now but that is common now especially for millennials. First generation who won’t do better than their parents.

I may make more than my dad ever did but am I better off? Fuck no. My dad has great retirement benefits through ford. And a pension. He took the buy out.

Oh yea and me. I make $100k a year give or take now. Have for the past 5 years. I’m 49. So let’s say I’ve got to at least work till I’m 62 to collect social security and Medicare. If they let me retire with those things at 62 I will I don’t care how much I lose for retiring early.

BUT. If I would have went to work at ford when I graduated highschool at 17, I’d already be getting a 30 year pension 2 years ago. At the age of 47. So even though I’m balling and have no debt, I’m still going to have to work 15 more years than if I would have just taken that union job at ford.

plus i wouldn’t have spent that $20,000 on a bachelors degree.
If I only made $100k per yr I would be depressed.
Why should people who make $60k and have $100,000 in student loan debt vote republican? You probably like that th3 ceo makes 300x what they make right?

But you, if you really make more than me, you should vote republican. But if you don’t you shouldn’t.

Arent you that fat foreign guy? Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else?
I vote Republican because Democrats tell me that men may identity as women
Ha! I was just telling a guy name unkotare how they use gay to con poor and middle class Americans into voting republican. Without these wedge issues like guns, racism, abortion these people would have no business voting republican. Republicans are not pro labor. Period.
How so?
Because republicans are against employees unionizing. Their way brought wages down.

Because republicans won’t go after illegal employers. So they arent really trying to kick illegals out. A wall. Ha!

Because trumps fixes to nafta and trade with ch8na did nothing to help labor. And only american companies a little. Only enough for trump to claim a victory.

Youre being conned
Unions are stupid. Republicans are for lower taxes and fewer regulations. You’re uneducated by your own admission so please stop trying to sound smart.
Republicans are against paying labor more too. Driving wages down. How? By sending jobs overseas and hiring illegal workers
Not true at all. Fewer regulations equates to more business openings and expansion and more jobs. Trump brought jobs back and halted corporate inversions.
More jobs but lower paying.

But I’m not so against lower wages anymore. As long as it’s not my wages. You and I make more than the average american with two kids. I’m not worrying about them anymore

but remember you admitted that if you made what they all make, your be depressed. So why should they vote like you vote when you’re for lower wages for them?
lower pay?? how so?
Look at companies like Toyota and Honda Compared to ford and gm. More temps than full time employees.

That’s just one example.

Do you even have to ask?

Republicans applaud companies who’s CEOs make the most but employees make the least.
PROOF PLEASE--you just babbled..how about some facts and figures--FOR ONCE!!!!
Look it up
We have looked it up. There is no example of lower pay.

You show me the example of lower pay. You show me the wielder that in 1970 was earning $50/hour, and today is earning $10/hour.

There is no such example anywhere. None. Zero. Even adjusted for inflation, no such example.

We have looked it up. You are wrong. This is why we are asking you to look it up, so you can educate yourself on your false beliefs.
Ford scores higher in 6 areas dummy. Overall rating, career opportunpities, work life balance, senior management, culture and values and % recommended to a friend.

Big three workers make $27 hr Toyota $25.

Keep in mind Toyota only pays what they pay because if they didn’t their employees would unionize.

Engineers at ford make $37 hr Toyota engineers make $32

Ford has 3400 temp workers. I’m looking at an article about Toyota extending plant shutdown and will stop paying 5000 temps.
What does any of that have to do with anything?

You made the claim that people are paid less today, than they were yesterday.

Are you saying that Toyota Engineers were making $37/hour and now they are making $32 an hour?

I'm not asking you if some employees are choosing to work for a company that pays less money.

Which employee was making $37/hour yesterday, or last year, or last decade, and today is making $32/hour?

Unless they suck. I've known some engineers, that honestly were not worth $15/hour.

How much was Toyota paying engineers 30 years ago? Is more... or less... than how much engineers are paid today?

And honestly, Toyota Engineers are paid $32/hour? Oh my bleeding heart..... oh the horror....

You know that German automotive engineers in Germany right now, earn less than that?

Evidence my friend. Evidence. You are complaining about better working conditions than other first world countries offer.

Engineers come here from Europe, and earn more working for Toyota.



View attachment 389136
I do not even believe you honestly.

Figures about pay scales are horribly easy to mislead with.

No two engineers are identical by any stretch. One engineer can have 10 years of experience, while another might have only 3 years of experience. Another engineer might have 15 years of experience, but in a field where there are dozens of engineers, while another engineer with only 5 years of experience might specialize in a field that few others do.

Just saying "well this group of engineers collectively is paid less or more than another group" is just ridiculous. You don't know what experience they have, what they specialize in, or anything.

They are not significantly paid less than people at Ford. If they were, no one would work there.

Overall, wages have gone up.... PERIOD. They have gone up, and what you posted doesn't contradict that.

We have the highest wages, and then highest standard of living in the world, and people need to be less spoiled, less complaining, and more grateful for what we have.
Was all this true on Obama's watch or only after Trump got into office?

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.

I'm talking about these people: the median weekly earnings are $933, or about $48,516 per year.
Who are these people? Do you know any?
Medium income is $47,000 a year. That’s what I imagine most Americans are working with.

And even though it’s probably tough to raise a family on that, $47,000 isn’t that bad. I don’t think the masses should all be making more than that.

The more I talk to you guys the more I realize things probably aren’t as bad as I think. But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table. And I don’t want government cutting my social security no matter how much I make. I’m going to want that extra $300 a month when I’m retired. Cutting my social security 20% would not be cool and that’s what republicans want to do.

And before you deny it, don’t lie. Like yesterday trump said he doesn’t want to do away with pre existing conditions but we know that’s a fucking lie

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?
I hope he does away with the ban on pre-existing conditions.

Do you want affordable health insurance for 90% of the country or not? Yes or no, dude. Because you can't get affordable health care, while being forced to pay for people who don't buy health insurance.

I was working at a place some years bad, and there was a guy that canceled his insurance, and said he'll just get insurance if he gets sick.

See, this is another case, where because you can't see how it directly effects you, then you are fine with it.

But if your health insurance payment, had it itemized to show how much you are paying for your own policy, and how many paying for people who intentionally did not buy insurance, and then got sick, and now you have to cover the cost of their care.....

You yourself would be SCREAMING to have pre-existing condition clauses.

But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table.

Every company that has allowed labor to have a seat at the table, has imploded in on itself. Do you like employees losing their jobs?

Ask the people of Toyota or Honda, if they wish they had the seat at the table like those of Chrysler before they became a subsidiary of Fiat.

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

The irony of that statement is that right-wingers routinely provide vastly more help than left-wingers, throughout the entire world, and especially in the US.

We routinely do far more to actually help people, than the left-wing. Left-wingers only demand that OTHER PEOPLE help the poor or sick.
I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!
So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?
That is up to your employer and what they negotiate with that carrier. But yes, that carrier should not have an obligation to do so, however, they likely will because they are making millions off that employer and most of the people who sign up won't have such conditions.

So let me ask you this. I have a family of four and knock on wood all healthy. I should pay the same as some guy with a family of six, who smokes, has diabetes and has a wife who is constantly at the doctor and kids too as he has so many? How is that equitable to me?
Because knock on wood don’t work. But they should reward non smokers or healthy people. That’s a great idea.
But they don’t. How about dem apples. System is broken.
Trump will fix it. Or I guess we’ll just keep the current system where you don’t only insure healthy people.

How bout this. Anyone with a pre existing can get Medicare.
Medicare is going broke right now. You want to jack up taxes on the lower and middle class to pay for it? How much more in taxes do you want to pay? 5% more? 10% more?
Ton of fraud in Medicaid. I d start there and I d get the administrators out of the way. Create a free market in healthcare as happened with LASIK. Now LASIK is very affordable due to market forces.
I know 5 people on disability. Of all of them, one truly deserves it. She got in an accident and she’s no right in the head. She was making good money she didn’t ask for or deserve her situation. The others are all losers. Or their health problems ar3 their own fault.

Bu5 one just told me she gets $1200 a month but he’s to pay $500 for all her healthcare so $700 probably gets eaten up with bills. I don’t know how she’s going to be able to continue living on her own. Financially she can’t afford to live here. She said her brother has a finished basement so eventually she’ll probably do that.

So each of these people is costing us $12,000 a year. Geez
Sucks and sad. She couldn’t sue?
 

sealybobo

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Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.
It is way too expensive to live in nyc. People who worked in nyc but now work from home have moved to places where their salaries go a lot further.

Shuli on the Howard stern show moved to Alabama. With what he makes he’s rich in Alabama. If you can work from home why live in a city where $100,000 a year is not a lot?
And whose fault is that?

You jack up taxes, jack up regulations, jack up housing policy, jack up the police so that crime is everywhere, which increases costs on the city.... and then you say "It's too expensive to live there" as if that just fell out of the sky randomly.

No it didn't. Bad policies caused this.

And by the way, they could have had thousands of well paying jobs in NYC when Amazon built an HQ there, but AOC drove them out. Brilliant.
Hey, if you want to live or do business in ny you have to pay. Otherwise go to Alabama. Use their ports and tear up their roads.
Well that's kind of my point. They are not, and they leaving.

People are leaving NYC. That's the point. This is true everywhere.

When France implemented their wealth tax... they said the same thing. "Hey, if you want to live and do business in France, you have to pay!"

and you know what happened????


They left! They were packing up their wealthy, their businesses, and their families, and leaving.

Famously in Jamaica, when PM Manly passed all his socialist crap.... he said openly "There are six flights a day to Miami"... and people started taking the flights to Miami. They left.

You can't hurt the rich. Only yourself. It was poor people of Jamaica that end up dealing with the joblessness and high crime.

The rich left.

Same in NYC. The rich are leaving. The poor are stuck jobless, and victimized by the criminals.

So, yes.... they will leave.
Then don’t expect America to be great again. Not if you are middle class. The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.

If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.
I actually don't believe that America was ever not great. At least thus far. America has never ceased being great.

The only people who think that America has declined, are the fools who have never lived, or been elsewhere, or know people who live elsewhere.

I do. I've been to Europe. I know people who live in Europe right now. And if you think America is not better than Europe, or the rest of the world, you are crazy. You don't know what you are talking about.

People in Europe live lower standards of living, universally. Smaller houses, smaller cars, smaller appliances, less spending money, less entertainment.

There is no possible way to measure the standards of living in the rest of the world, and compare to the US, and not have the US be better.

Why do think we have millions of people trying to get into this country? It's one of the most baffling aspects of Left-wing contradictions, that you want open borders to let people freely come into the country, and at the same time claim the country is declining and everything is terrible, and America is racists and evil.

Those are mutually exclusive positions. People don't risk their lives, to get into places that are terrible.

The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

No, I don't buy that. You show me one person who walked the exact same path as their parents, and is worse off.

I'm not making the same money as my parents, but that's because I am not in the same career as my parents.

I have relatives, where their parents were wielders. Their son, became a wielder too. Their son is make more money than his parents did, when they were his age.

I know engineers, and they make more money in engineering than their parents who were engineers.

And as far as the standard of living.... no you are still crazy.

My standard of living today, is better than my parents when they were my age. By quite a bit too.

My house is bigger, than the house they had at my age. I have had central air conditioning since I was in college, in 1999. My parents didn't have air conditioning until they were in their late 50s. Microwaves, internet, computers, instapots. My parents didn't have cable TV until they were in their late 50s, and in fact, didn't even own a TV until they were in their late 40s.

I've had all of that, and smart phones, and GPS driving directions, and on and on and on.

We today, are miles and miles beyond where are parents were at the same age. You are crazy if you think otherwise. Absolutely crazy.

The poorest WORKING people today, have a higher standard of living, than the middle class of the 1970s. By a MASSIVE margin.

Now if you are living off welfare and unemployment, and not working consistently full time, then yeah, they are falling way behind, and need to get off their butts, and work for what they want.

But the poorest working people putting in full days work every day.... no they are way beyond where the middle class was in the 1970s, or even 1980s.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.
If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.


Social Security was going broke before Trump was even running for office.

You are fool if your retirement plan is to depend on Social Security.

Before any of this Covid nonsense happened, SS was going broke. Before Trump was ever elected, SS paid out so little, that you were basically going to live in poverty until you die, if Social Security was your retirement plan.

Anyone who plans to retire on Social Security is an idiot. You need to be saving for your own retirement out of your own income, like everyone else should be doing.

Social Security is the most poverty creating program in US history. Don't be stupid. Save for retirement.
We don’t have to be worse than Europe. Maybe we’re still better but not as much as we were before Reagan bush and trump.

And when I say we’re not better than we were before I mean the middle class. The rich are doing great.

Half of me is working class and half is investor class. As a worker I disagree with you. As an investor I partially agree with you. And when I agree I certainly don’t agree on your suggested remedies.
Again, factually speaking, we are way better off after the 1980s, than before.

If you telling me that the working class, TODAY.... is worse off, than the working class of the 1970s.... or before.... you are crazy. You are factually incorrect sir.

We are way way way better off than the people in the 1970s or before.

The middle class TODAY... is better off than the middle class of the 1970s.

And yes, investors are better off too. You know who is an investor? Likely.... 70% of the population?

55% of people have investments in the stock market.
65% have property investments.
15% have pensions, which are in fact investments, typically in the stock market.

And there are millions with annuities, and those are typically invested in stocks too.

And by the way, there is a connection between investment and labor. Most jobs wouldn't exist without investment.

So while someone might claim "The investor class is doing well, but the working class is not".... really? Because without the investments, hundreds of millions of jobs wouldn't exist, and those workers would be far worse off.
Honestly I grew up in the 70s and 80s in metro Detroit. Back then a guy could graduate high school and go find a job that would support a family of 5. One income. One bread winner.

Today to do as well you have to go to college and how much does that cost? So blue collar are not better off today and back in my day college was $5000 a year. I worked in the summer and saved most of my tuition. Maybe my dad had to chip in $1000 a year so I didn’t need student loans.

And honestly, for years I had a college degree but wasn’t doing as well as my dad did. I am now but that is common now especially for millennials. First generation who won’t do better than their parents.

I may make more than my dad ever did but am I better off? Fuck no. My dad has great retirement benefits through ford. And a pension. He took the buy out.

Oh yea and me. I make $100k a year give or take now. Have for the past 5 years. I’m 49. So let’s say I’ve got to at least work till I’m 62 to collect social security and Medicare. If they let me retire with those things at 62 I will I don’t care how much I lose for retiring early.

BUT. If I would have went to work at ford when I graduated highschool at 17, I’d already be getting a 30 year pension 2 years ago. At the age of 47. So even though I’m balling and have no debt, I’m still going to have to work 15 more years than if I would have just taken that union job at ford.

plus i wouldn’t have spent that $20,000 on a bachelors degree.
If I only made $100k per yr I would be depressed.
Why should people who make $60k and have $100,000 in student loan debt vote republican? You probably like that th3 ceo makes 300x what they make right?

But you, if you really make more than me, you should vote republican. But if you don’t you shouldn’t.

Arent you that fat foreign guy? Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else?
I vote Republican because Democrats tell me that men may identity as women
Ha! I was just telling a guy name unkotare how they use gay to con poor and middle class Americans into voting republican. Without these wedge issues like guns, racism, abortion these people would have no business voting republican. Republicans are not pro labor. Period.
How so?
Because republicans are against employees unionizing. Their way brought wages down.

Because republicans won’t go after illegal employers. So they arent really trying to kick illegals out. A wall. Ha!

Because trumps fixes to nafta and trade with ch8na did nothing to help labor. And only american companies a little. Only enough for trump to claim a victory.

Youre being conned
Unions are stupid. Republicans are for lower taxes and fewer regulations. You’re uneducated by your own admission so please stop trying to sound smart.
Republicans are against paying labor more too. Driving wages down. How? By sending jobs overseas and hiring illegal workers
Not true at all. Fewer regulations equates to more business openings and expansion and more jobs. Trump brought jobs back and halted corporate inversions.
More jobs but lower paying.

But I’m not so against lower wages anymore. As long as it’s not my wages. You and I make more than the average american with two kids. I’m not worrying about them anymore

but remember you admitted that if you made what they all make, your be depressed. So why should they vote like you vote when you’re for lower wages for them?
lower pay?? how so?
Look at companies like Toyota and Honda Compared to ford and gm. More temps than full time employees.

That’s just one example.

Do you even have to ask?

Republicans applaud companies who’s CEOs make the most but employees make the least.
PROOF PLEASE--you just babbled..how about some facts and figures--FOR ONCE!!!!
Look it up
We have looked it up. There is no example of lower pay.

You show me the example of lower pay. You show me the wielder that in 1970 was earning $50/hour, and today is earning $10/hour.

There is no such example anywhere. None. Zero. Even adjusted for inflation, no such example.

We have looked it up. You are wrong. This is why we are asking you to look it up, so you can educate yourself on your false beliefs.
Ford scores higher in 6 areas dummy. Overall rating, career opportunpities, work life balance, senior management, culture and values and % recommended to a friend.

Big three workers make $27 hr Toyota $25.

Keep in mind Toyota only pays what they pay because if they didn’t their employees would unionize.

Engineers at ford make $37 hr Toyota engineers make $32

Ford has 3400 temp workers. I’m looking at an article about Toyota extending plant shutdown and will stop paying 5000 temps.
What does any of that have to do with anything?

You made the claim that people are paid less today, than they were yesterday.

Are you saying that Toyota Engineers were making $37/hour and now they are making $32 an hour?

I'm not asking you if some employees are choosing to work for a company that pays less money.

Which employee was making $37/hour yesterday, or last year, or last decade, and today is making $32/hour?

Unless they suck. I've known some engineers, that honestly were not worth $15/hour.

How much was Toyota paying engineers 30 years ago? Is more... or less... than how much engineers are paid today?

And honestly, Toyota Engineers are paid $32/hour? Oh my bleeding heart..... oh the horror....

You know that German automotive engineers in Germany right now, earn less than that?

Evidence my friend. Evidence. You are complaining about better working conditions than other first world countries offer.

Engineers come here from Europe, and earn more working for Toyota.



View attachment 389136
I do not even believe you honestly.

Figures about pay scales are horribly easy to mislead with.

No two engineers are identical by any stretch. One engineer can have 10 years of experience, while another might have only 3 years of experience. Another engineer might have 15 years of experience, but in a field where there are dozens of engineers, while another engineer with only 5 years of experience might specialize in a field that few others do.

Just saying "well this group of engineers collectively is paid less or more than another group" is just ridiculous. You don't know what experience they have, what they specialize in, or anything.

They are not significantly paid less than people at Ford. If they were, no one would work there.

Overall, wages have gone up.... PERIOD. They have gone up, and what you posted doesn't contradict that.

We have the highest wages, and then highest standard of living in the world, and people need to be less spoiled, less complaining, and more grateful for what we have.
Was all this true on Obama's watch or only after Trump got into office?

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.

I'm talking about these people: the median weekly earnings are $933, or about $48,516 per year.
Who are these people? Do you know any?
Medium income is $47,000 a year. That’s what I imagine most Americans are working with.

And even though it’s probably tough to raise a family on that, $47,000 isn’t that bad. I don’t think the masses should all be making more than that.

The more I talk to you guys the more I realize things probably aren’t as bad as I think. But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table. And I don’t want government cutting my social security no matter how much I make. I’m going to want that extra $300 a month when I’m retired. Cutting my social security 20% would not be cool and that’s what republicans want to do.

And before you deny it, don’t lie. Like yesterday trump said he doesn’t want to do away with pre existing conditions but we know that’s a fucking lie

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?
I hope he does away with the ban on pre-existing conditions.

Do you want affordable health insurance for 90% of the country or not? Yes or no, dude. Because you can't get affordable health care, while being forced to pay for people who don't buy health insurance.

I was working at a place some years bad, and there was a guy that canceled his insurance, and said he'll just get insurance if he gets sick.

See, this is another case, where because you can't see how it directly effects you, then you are fine with it.

But if your health insurance payment, had it itemized to show how much you are paying for your own policy, and how many paying for people who intentionally did not buy insurance, and then got sick, and now you have to cover the cost of their care.....

You yourself would be SCREAMING to have pre-existing condition clauses.

But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table.

Every company that has allowed labor to have a seat at the table, has imploded in on itself. Do you like employees losing their jobs?

Ask the people of Toyota or Honda, if they wish they had the seat at the table like those of Chrysler before they became a subsidiary of Fiat.

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

The irony of that statement is that right-wingers routinely provide vastly more help than left-wingers, throughout the entire world, and especially in the US.

We routinely do far more to actually help people, than the left-wing. Left-wingers only demand that OTHER PEOPLE help the poor or sick.
I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!
So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?
That is up to your employer and what they negotiate with that carrier. But yes, that carrier should not have an obligation to do so, however, they likely will because they are making millions off that employer and most of the people who sign up won't have such conditions.

So let me ask you this. I have a family of four and knock on wood all healthy. I should pay the same as some guy with a family of six, who smokes, has diabetes and has a wife who is constantly at the doctor and kids too as he has so many? How is that equitable to me?
Because knock on wood don’t work. But they should reward non smokers or healthy people. That’s a great idea.
But they don’t. How about dem apples. System is broken.
Trump will fix it. Or I guess we’ll just keep the current system where you don’t only insure healthy people.

How bout this. Anyone with a pre existing can get Medicare.
Medicare is going broke right now. You want to jack up taxes on the lower and middle class to pay for it? How much more in taxes do you want to pay? 5% more? 10% more?
Ton of fraud in Medicaid. I d start there and I d get the administrators out of the way. Create a free market in healthcare as happened with LASIK. Now LASIK is very affordable due to market forces.
Exactly. I don't think there is any way to avoid fraud in Medicaid or Medicare.

The reason is because there is far more political risk to trying to reduce fraud, than to let it go.

And the fact that so few complain about the endless fraud is proof of that.

If one single person is denied a legitimate medicare claim, that would be splashed on every single news outlet, and on every partisan talking pundit show, and all over the social media site.

It would be a massive blow to whoever was in office, Democrat or Republican.

So there is zero incentive to fix fraud in the system.

Further, there is actually incentive to allow fraud. Remember, the way you get more money in government.... is by running out of money.

It's the exact opposite of how things work in the private sector. If you are in a company, and your department makes a product for less cost, that increase sales, and benefits more people, so that you have tons of money saved, and increase your profits... the company is going to flood that department with more funding.

The incentive is to increase funding to things that create more value, and benefit more people.

In government, blowing as much money as you possible can, is how you get more money.

At the end of the year, if you report you has a surplus of cash, the government will cut your funding, and move that money elsewhere to some other pet project, or to payback political supporters.

But if that end of the year, you have zero left, then you can claim you need more money to help more people.... even if the primary reason you have zero left over is because you blew the money on crap, or paid it out in fraudulent claims.

So the idea that you are going reduce fraud in a government system.... no, I don't think so.

They need to privatize health care, and virtually eliminate Medicare and Medicaid.
I like healthcare for seniors and social security.

I like the idea that I pay in till retirement and if I die before I retire I get nothing but if I retire I get my benefits till I die. I’d sign up for that deal.
 

Andylusion

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I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!
So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?
That is up to your employer and what they negotiate with that carrier. But yes, that carrier should not have an obligation to do so, however, they likely will because they are making millions off that employer and most of the people who sign up won't have such conditions.

So let me ask you this. I have a family of four and knock on wood all healthy. I should pay the same as some guy with a family of six, who smokes, has diabetes and has a wife who is constantly at the doctor and kids too as he has so many? How is that equitable to me?
Because knock on wood don’t work. But they should reward non smokers or healthy people. That’s a great idea.
Then charity. I'm all for helping people who genuinely need help.

I'm against forcing people, using the violence of government.

And the irony is, you say that they should reward people... well if everyone gets the reward except for the people that are unhealthy... then you are penalizing people who live unhealthy.

But you say you don't want them to have to pay the true cost of their health care, because you said earlier....

"Isn’t that the purpose of insurance? We all pay a little so when something bad happens to a couple of us, it doesn’t break them."

If they don't pay the high cost of their choices, someone else must be forced to.

You can't have it both ways. You want to pay less for health care...... but you don't want them paying so much for health care.

Those are mutually exclusive goals. The cost of health care treatment, doesn't magically go down, because you force the insurance companies to cover people with pre-existing conditions.

So.... someone has to pay it. And that someone is you.

It's not going to be "Pay a little". It's going to be pay a lot.

Name one system anywhere that was changed to cover more people, and cost less. No such system exists. When MassHealth was created by Mitt Romney, the cost of health care went up, not down.

You certainly don't see prices going down in Europe. What you see going down, is the quality of the care. This is why Canadians come to the US routinely, to pay for health care out of pocket, after paying way higher prices for health care in taxes.

You want to make health care more affordable? Deregulate the entire system.
All I know is we all had grandmothers and grandfathers who racked up hundreds of thousands of dollars dying. None of us want to get that bill that’s what Medicare is for. Thank god.
What happens when the entire country goes broke, and there is no money for anything, let alone health care? Did you learn nothing from Greece? Did you not see the hospitals that were completely shut down, and patients were left standing on the street in front of the hospital?


Screen Shot 2020-09-17 at 9.52.24 PM.png


What are you going to do when all the hospitals close, because the government simply does not have the $55 Trillion, or $87 Trillion, or $222 Trillion to keep them open?

Do you know the phrase "Short term gain, long term pain. Short term pain, long term gain"?

There is a reason phrases like that exist. Because they are true.

Yeah, you are screwing over the future of the entire country, to avoid your short term obligations to your parents.

Think more wisely about your future.

By the way, Greece was nothing compared to what will happen here in the US, when the debt-turd hits the fan.

Remember, Greece had countries in the EU, and the IMF that gave them loans that helped avoid a complete and total collaspe.

Do tell sir.... when the US ends up with a debt crisis... what country do you think, can help us out?

China? The EU? Russia? Who is even capable of giving us a loan that could help us avoid a catastrophe?

No one.

This is why conservatives will fight bitterly to the very end, to prevent that catastrophe, and why left-wingers will hate and malign us all the way... while we're the ones saving left-wing butts from the burning the fire that this nation would end up without us.
 

antontoo

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Who the hell wants to live in a city where the mayor and governor decide to send virus patients to nursing homes to die and infect more people.
What nonsense. Last thing anyone looking for a place to live worries about is some nursing homes.

Covid is well under controll in NYC for a few months now (more than you can generally say for United States) and the reason people are leaving Manhattan is because it's a city that never...oops never mind, Covid-19 has shut down the hustle, butsle and party that was the draw for so many. Real estate is still expensive, jobs are down and if all you are doing is stitting at home or going to the park then you can do that Upstate or in NJ too.

 
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sealybobo

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Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.
It is way too expensive to live in nyc. People who worked in nyc but now work from home have moved to places where their salaries go a lot further.

Shuli on the Howard stern show moved to Alabama. With what he makes he’s rich in Alabama. If you can work from home why live in a city where $100,000 a year is not a lot?
And whose fault is that?

You jack up taxes, jack up regulations, jack up housing policy, jack up the police so that crime is everywhere, which increases costs on the city.... and then you say "It's too expensive to live there" as if that just fell out of the sky randomly.

No it didn't. Bad policies caused this.

And by the way, they could have had thousands of well paying jobs in NYC when Amazon built an HQ there, but AOC drove them out. Brilliant.
Hey, if you want to live or do business in ny you have to pay. Otherwise go to Alabama. Use their ports and tear up their roads.
Well that's kind of my point. They are not, and they leaving.

People are leaving NYC. That's the point. This is true everywhere.

When France implemented their wealth tax... they said the same thing. "Hey, if you want to live and do business in France, you have to pay!"

and you know what happened????


They left! They were packing up their wealthy, their businesses, and their families, and leaving.

Famously in Jamaica, when PM Manly passed all his socialist crap.... he said openly "There are six flights a day to Miami"... and people started taking the flights to Miami. They left.

You can't hurt the rich. Only yourself. It was poor people of Jamaica that end up dealing with the joblessness and high crime.

The rich left.

Same in NYC. The rich are leaving. The poor are stuck jobless, and victimized by the criminals.

So, yes.... they will leave.
Then don’t expect America to be great again. Not if you are middle class. The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.

If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.
I actually don't believe that America was ever not great. At least thus far. America has never ceased being great.

The only people who think that America has declined, are the fools who have never lived, or been elsewhere, or know people who live elsewhere.

I do. I've been to Europe. I know people who live in Europe right now. And if you think America is not better than Europe, or the rest of the world, you are crazy. You don't know what you are talking about.

People in Europe live lower standards of living, universally. Smaller houses, smaller cars, smaller appliances, less spending money, less entertainment.

There is no possible way to measure the standards of living in the rest of the world, and compare to the US, and not have the US be better.

Why do think we have millions of people trying to get into this country? It's one of the most baffling aspects of Left-wing contradictions, that you want open borders to let people freely come into the country, and at the same time claim the country is declining and everything is terrible, and America is racists and evil.

Those are mutually exclusive positions. People don't risk their lives, to get into places that are terrible.

The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

No, I don't buy that. You show me one person who walked the exact same path as their parents, and is worse off.

I'm not making the same money as my parents, but that's because I am not in the same career as my parents.

I have relatives, where their parents were wielders. Their son, became a wielder too. Their son is make more money than his parents did, when they were his age.

I know engineers, and they make more money in engineering than their parents who were engineers.

And as far as the standard of living.... no you are still crazy.

My standard of living today, is better than my parents when they were my age. By quite a bit too.

My house is bigger, than the house they had at my age. I have had central air conditioning since I was in college, in 1999. My parents didn't have air conditioning until they were in their late 50s. Microwaves, internet, computers, instapots. My parents didn't have cable TV until they were in their late 50s, and in fact, didn't even own a TV until they were in their late 40s.

I've had all of that, and smart phones, and GPS driving directions, and on and on and on.

We today, are miles and miles beyond where are parents were at the same age. You are crazy if you think otherwise. Absolutely crazy.

The poorest WORKING people today, have a higher standard of living, than the middle class of the 1970s. By a MASSIVE margin.

Now if you are living off welfare and unemployment, and not working consistently full time, then yeah, they are falling way behind, and need to get off their butts, and work for what they want.

But the poorest working people putting in full days work every day.... no they are way beyond where the middle class was in the 1970s, or even 1980s.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.
If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.


Social Security was going broke before Trump was even running for office.

You are fool if your retirement plan is to depend on Social Security.

Before any of this Covid nonsense happened, SS was going broke. Before Trump was ever elected, SS paid out so little, that you were basically going to live in poverty until you die, if Social Security was your retirement plan.

Anyone who plans to retire on Social Security is an idiot. You need to be saving for your own retirement out of your own income, like everyone else should be doing.

Social Security is the most poverty creating program in US history. Don't be stupid. Save for retirement.
We don’t have to be worse than Europe. Maybe we’re still better but not as much as we were before Reagan bush and trump.

And when I say we’re not better than we were before I mean the middle class. The rich are doing great.

Half of me is working class and half is investor class. As a worker I disagree with you. As an investor I partially agree with you. And when I agree I certainly don’t agree on your suggested remedies.
Again, factually speaking, we are way better off after the 1980s, than before.

If you telling me that the working class, TODAY.... is worse off, than the working class of the 1970s.... or before.... you are crazy. You are factually incorrect sir.

We are way way way better off than the people in the 1970s or before.

The middle class TODAY... is better off than the middle class of the 1970s.

And yes, investors are better off too. You know who is an investor? Likely.... 70% of the population?

55% of people have investments in the stock market.
65% have property investments.
15% have pensions, which are in fact investments, typically in the stock market.

And there are millions with annuities, and those are typically invested in stocks too.

And by the way, there is a connection between investment and labor. Most jobs wouldn't exist without investment.

So while someone might claim "The investor class is doing well, but the working class is not".... really? Because without the investments, hundreds of millions of jobs wouldn't exist, and those workers would be far worse off.
Honestly I grew up in the 70s and 80s in metro Detroit. Back then a guy could graduate high school and go find a job that would support a family of 5. One income. One bread winner.

Today to do as well you have to go to college and how much does that cost? So blue collar are not better off today and back in my day college was $5000 a year. I worked in the summer and saved most of my tuition. Maybe my dad had to chip in $1000 a year so I didn’t need student loans.

And honestly, for years I had a college degree but wasn’t doing as well as my dad did. I am now but that is common now especially for millennials. First generation who won’t do better than their parents.

I may make more than my dad ever did but am I better off? Fuck no. My dad has great retirement benefits through ford. And a pension. He took the buy out.

Oh yea and me. I make $100k a year give or take now. Have for the past 5 years. I’m 49. So let’s say I’ve got to at least work till I’m 62 to collect social security and Medicare. If they let me retire with those things at 62 I will I don’t care how much I lose for retiring early.

BUT. If I would have went to work at ford when I graduated highschool at 17, I’d already be getting a 30 year pension 2 years ago. At the age of 47. So even though I’m balling and have no debt, I’m still going to have to work 15 more years than if I would have just taken that union job at ford.

plus i wouldn’t have spent that $20,000 on a bachelors degree.
If I only made $100k per yr I would be depressed.
Why should people who make $60k and have $100,000 in student loan debt vote republican? You probably like that th3 ceo makes 300x what they make right?

But you, if you really make more than me, you should vote republican. But if you don’t you shouldn’t.

Arent you that fat foreign guy? Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else?
I vote Republican because Democrats tell me that men may identity as women
Ha! I was just telling a guy name unkotare how they use gay to con poor and middle class Americans into voting republican. Without these wedge issues like guns, racism, abortion these people would have no business voting republican. Republicans are not pro labor. Period.
How so?
Because republicans are against employees unionizing. Their way brought wages down.

Because republicans won’t go after illegal employers. So they arent really trying to kick illegals out. A wall. Ha!

Because trumps fixes to nafta and trade with ch8na did nothing to help labor. And only american companies a little. Only enough for trump to claim a victory.

Youre being conned
Unions are stupid. Republicans are for lower taxes and fewer regulations. You’re uneducated by your own admission so please stop trying to sound smart.
Republicans are against paying labor more too. Driving wages down. How? By sending jobs overseas and hiring illegal workers
Not true at all. Fewer regulations equates to more business openings and expansion and more jobs. Trump brought jobs back and halted corporate inversions.
More jobs but lower paying.

But I’m not so against lower wages anymore. As long as it’s not my wages. You and I make more than the average american with two kids. I’m not worrying about them anymore

but remember you admitted that if you made what they all make, your be depressed. So why should they vote like you vote when you’re for lower wages for them?
lower pay?? how so?
Look at companies like Toyota and Honda Compared to ford and gm. More temps than full time employees.

That’s just one example.

Do you even have to ask?

Republicans applaud companies who’s CEOs make the most but employees make the least.
PROOF PLEASE--you just babbled..how about some facts and figures--FOR ONCE!!!!
Look it up
We have looked it up. There is no example of lower pay.

You show me the example of lower pay. You show me the wielder that in 1970 was earning $50/hour, and today is earning $10/hour.

There is no such example anywhere. None. Zero. Even adjusted for inflation, no such example.

We have looked it up. You are wrong. This is why we are asking you to look it up, so you can educate yourself on your false beliefs.
Ford scores higher in 6 areas dummy. Overall rating, career opportunpities, work life balance, senior management, culture and values and % recommended to a friend.

Big three workers make $27 hr Toyota $25.

Keep in mind Toyota only pays what they pay because if they didn’t their employees would unionize.

Engineers at ford make $37 hr Toyota engineers make $32

Ford has 3400 temp workers. I’m looking at an article about Toyota extending plant shutdown and will stop paying 5000 temps.
What does any of that have to do with anything?

You made the claim that people are paid less today, than they were yesterday.

Are you saying that Toyota Engineers were making $37/hour and now they are making $32 an hour?

I'm not asking you if some employees are choosing to work for a company that pays less money.

Which employee was making $37/hour yesterday, or last year, or last decade, and today is making $32/hour?

Unless they suck. I've known some engineers, that honestly were not worth $15/hour.

How much was Toyota paying engineers 30 years ago? Is more... or less... than how much engineers are paid today?

And honestly, Toyota Engineers are paid $32/hour? Oh my bleeding heart..... oh the horror....

You know that German automotive engineers in Germany right now, earn less than that?

Evidence my friend. Evidence. You are complaining about better working conditions than other first world countries offer.

Engineers come here from Europe, and earn more working for Toyota.



View attachment 389136
I do not even believe you honestly.

Figures about pay scales are horribly easy to mislead with.

No two engineers are identical by any stretch. One engineer can have 10 years of experience, while another might have only 3 years of experience. Another engineer might have 15 years of experience, but in a field where there are dozens of engineers, while another engineer with only 5 years of experience might specialize in a field that few others do.

Just saying "well this group of engineers collectively is paid less or more than another group" is just ridiculous. You don't know what experience they have, what they specialize in, or anything.

They are not significantly paid less than people at Ford. If they were, no one would work there.

Overall, wages have gone up.... PERIOD. They have gone up, and what you posted doesn't contradict that.

We have the highest wages, and then highest standard of living in the world, and people need to be less spoiled, less complaining, and more grateful for what we have.
Was all this true on Obama's watch or only after Trump got into office?

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.

I'm talking about these people: the median weekly earnings are $933, or about $48,516 per year.
Who are these people? Do you know any?
Medium income is $47,000 a year. That’s what I imagine most Americans are working with.

And even though it’s probably tough to raise a family on that, $47,000 isn’t that bad. I don’t think the masses should all be making more than that.

The more I talk to you guys the more I realize things probably aren’t as bad as I think. But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table. And I don’t want government cutting my social security no matter how much I make. I’m going to want that extra $300 a month when I’m retired. Cutting my social security 20% would not be cool and that’s what republicans want to do.

And before you deny it, don’t lie. Like yesterday trump said he doesn’t want to do away with pre existing conditions but we know that’s a fucking lie

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?
I hope he does away with the ban on pre-existing conditions.

Do you want affordable health insurance for 90% of the country or not? Yes or no, dude. Because you can't get affordable health care, while being forced to pay for people who don't buy health insurance.

I was working at a place some years bad, and there was a guy that canceled his insurance, and said he'll just get insurance if he gets sick.

See, this is another case, where because you can't see how it directly effects you, then you are fine with it.

But if your health insurance payment, had it itemized to show how much you are paying for your own policy, and how many paying for people who intentionally did not buy insurance, and then got sick, and now you have to cover the cost of their care.....

You yourself would be SCREAMING to have pre-existing condition clauses.

But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table.

Every company that has allowed labor to have a seat at the table, has imploded in on itself. Do you like employees losing their jobs?

Ask the people of Toyota or Honda, if they wish they had the seat at the table like those of Chrysler before they became a subsidiary of Fiat.

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

The irony of that statement is that right-wingers routinely provide vastly more help than left-wingers, throughout the entire world, and especially in the US.

We routinely do far more to actually help people, than the left-wing. Left-wingers only demand that OTHER PEOPLE help the poor or sick.
I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!
So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?
That is up to your employer and what they negotiate with that carrier. But yes, that carrier should not have an obligation to do so, however, they likely will because they are making millions off that employer and most of the people who sign up won't have such conditions.

So let me ask you this. I have a family of four and knock on wood all healthy. I should pay the same as some guy with a family of six, who smokes, has diabetes and has a wife who is constantly at the doctor and kids too as he has so many? How is that equitable to me?
Because knock on wood don’t work. But they should reward non smokers or healthy people. That’s a great idea.
But they don’t. How about dem apples. System is broken.
Trump will fix it. Or I guess we’ll just keep the current system where you don’t only insure healthy people.

How bout this. Anyone with a pre existing can get Medicare.
Medicare is going broke right now. You want to jack up taxes on the lower and middle class to pay for it? How much more in taxes do you want to pay? 5% more? 10% more?
Ton of fraud in Medicaid. I d start there and I d get the administrators out of the way. Create a free market in healthcare as happened with LASIK. Now LASIK is very affordable due to market forces.
I know 5 people on disability. Of all of them, one truly deserves it. She got in an accident and she’s no right in the head. She was making good money she didn’t ask for or deserve her situation. The others are all losers. Or their health problems ar3 their own fault.

Bu5 one just told me she gets $1200 a month but he’s to pay $500 for all her healthcare so $700 probably gets eaten up with bills. I don’t know how she’s going to be able to continue living on her own. Financially she can’t afford to live here. She said her brother has a finished basement so eventually she’ll probably do that.

So each of these people is costing us $12,000 a year. Geez
Sucks and sad. She couldn’t sue?
I forgot the details but nope. At least not yet. Her boyfriend is her caregiver he’s in hell.
 

AzogtheDefiler

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I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!
So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?
That is up to your employer and what they negotiate with that carrier. But yes, that carrier should not have an obligation to do so, however, they likely will because they are making millions off that employer and most of the people who sign up won't have such conditions.

So let me ask you this. I have a family of four and knock on wood all healthy. I should pay the same as some guy with a family of six, who smokes, has diabetes and has a wife who is constantly at the doctor and kids too as he has so many? How is that equitable to me?
Because knock on wood don’t work. But they should reward non smokers or healthy people. That’s a great idea.
Then charity. I'm all for helping people who genuinely need help.

I'm against forcing people, using the violence of government.

And the irony is, you say that they should reward people... well if everyone gets the reward except for the people that are unhealthy... then you are penalizing people who live unhealthy.

But you say you don't want them to have to pay the true cost of their health care, because you said earlier....

"Isn’t that the purpose of insurance? We all pay a little so when something bad happens to a couple of us, it doesn’t break them."

If they don't pay the high cost of their choices, someone else must be forced to.

You can't have it both ways. You want to pay less for health care...... but you don't want them paying so much for health care.

Those are mutually exclusive goals. The cost of health care treatment, doesn't magically go down, because you force the insurance companies to cover people with pre-existing conditions.

So.... someone has to pay it. And that someone is you.

It's not going to be "Pay a little". It's going to be pay a lot.

Name one system anywhere that was changed to cover more people, and cost less. No such system exists. When MassHealth was created by Mitt Romney, the cost of health care went up, not down.

You certainly don't see prices going down in Europe. What you see going down, is the quality of the care. This is why Canadians come to the US routinely, to pay for health care out of pocket, after paying way higher prices for health care in taxes.

You want to make health care more affordable? Deregulate the entire system.
All I know is we all had grandmothers and grandfathers who racked up hundreds of thousands of dollars dying. None of us want to get that bill that’s what Medicare is for. Thank god.
What happens when the entire country goes broke, and there is no money for anything, let alone health care? Did you learn nothing from Greece? Did you not see the hospitals that were completely shut down, and patients were left standing on the street in front of the hospital?


View attachment 390027

What are you going to do when all the hospitals close, because the government simply does not have the $55 Trillion, or $87 Trillion, or $222 Trillion to keep them open?

Do you know the phrase "Short term gain, long term pain. Short term pain, long term gain"?

There is a reason phrases like that exist. Because they are true.

Yeah, you are screwing over the future of the entire country, to avoid your short term obligations to your parents.

Think more wisely about your future.

By the way, Greece was nothing compared to what will happen here in the US, when the debt-turd hits the fan.

Remember, Greece had countries in the EU, and the IMF that gave them loans that helped avoid a complete and total collaspe.

Do tell sir.... when the US ends up with a debt crisis... what country do you think, can help us out?

China? The EU? Russia? Who is even capable of giving us a loan that could help us avoid a catastrophe?

No one.

This is why conservatives will fight bitterly to the very end, to prevent that catastrophe, and why left-wingers will hate and malign us all the way... while we're the ones saving left-wing butts from the burning the fire that this nation would end up without us.
Yes and we are also the fattest country so we take a lot of pills. Really crazy. Eat healthier, be healthier, don’t go to the MD as often.
 

AzogtheDefiler

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Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.
It is way too expensive to live in nyc. People who worked in nyc but now work from home have moved to places where their salaries go a lot further.

Shuli on the Howard stern show moved to Alabama. With what he makes he’s rich in Alabama. If you can work from home why live in a city where $100,000 a year is not a lot?
And whose fault is that?

You jack up taxes, jack up regulations, jack up housing policy, jack up the police so that crime is everywhere, which increases costs on the city.... and then you say "It's too expensive to live there" as if that just fell out of the sky randomly.

No it didn't. Bad policies caused this.

And by the way, they could have had thousands of well paying jobs in NYC when Amazon built an HQ there, but AOC drove them out. Brilliant.
Hey, if you want to live or do business in ny you have to pay. Otherwise go to Alabama. Use their ports and tear up their roads.
Well that's kind of my point. They are not, and they leaving.

People are leaving NYC. That's the point. This is true everywhere.

When France implemented their wealth tax... they said the same thing. "Hey, if you want to live and do business in France, you have to pay!"

and you know what happened????


They left! They were packing up their wealthy, their businesses, and their families, and leaving.

Famously in Jamaica, when PM Manly passed all his socialist crap.... he said openly "There are six flights a day to Miami"... and people started taking the flights to Miami. They left.

You can't hurt the rich. Only yourself. It was poor people of Jamaica that end up dealing with the joblessness and high crime.

The rich left.

Same in NYC. The rich are leaving. The poor are stuck jobless, and victimized by the criminals.

So, yes.... they will leave.
Then don’t expect America to be great again. Not if you are middle class. The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.

If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.
I actually don't believe that America was ever not great. At least thus far. America has never ceased being great.

The only people who think that America has declined, are the fools who have never lived, or been elsewhere, or know people who live elsewhere.

I do. I've been to Europe. I know people who live in Europe right now. And if you think America is not better than Europe, or the rest of the world, you are crazy. You don't know what you are talking about.

People in Europe live lower standards of living, universally. Smaller houses, smaller cars, smaller appliances, less spending money, less entertainment.

There is no possible way to measure the standards of living in the rest of the world, and compare to the US, and not have the US be better.

Why do think we have millions of people trying to get into this country? It's one of the most baffling aspects of Left-wing contradictions, that you want open borders to let people freely come into the country, and at the same time claim the country is declining and everything is terrible, and America is racists and evil.

Those are mutually exclusive positions. People don't risk their lives, to get into places that are terrible.

The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

No, I don't buy that. You show me one person who walked the exact same path as their parents, and is worse off.

I'm not making the same money as my parents, but that's because I am not in the same career as my parents.

I have relatives, where their parents were wielders. Their son, became a wielder too. Their son is make more money than his parents did, when they were his age.

I know engineers, and they make more money in engineering than their parents who were engineers.

And as far as the standard of living.... no you are still crazy.

My standard of living today, is better than my parents when they were my age. By quite a bit too.

My house is bigger, than the house they had at my age. I have had central air conditioning since I was in college, in 1999. My parents didn't have air conditioning until they were in their late 50s. Microwaves, internet, computers, instapots. My parents didn't have cable TV until they were in their late 50s, and in fact, didn't even own a TV until they were in their late 40s.

I've had all of that, and smart phones, and GPS driving directions, and on and on and on.

We today, are miles and miles beyond where are parents were at the same age. You are crazy if you think otherwise. Absolutely crazy.

The poorest WORKING people today, have a higher standard of living, than the middle class of the 1970s. By a MASSIVE margin.

Now if you are living off welfare and unemployment, and not working consistently full time, then yeah, they are falling way behind, and need to get off their butts, and work for what they want.

But the poorest working people putting in full days work every day.... no they are way beyond where the middle class was in the 1970s, or even 1980s.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.
If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.


Social Security was going broke before Trump was even running for office.

You are fool if your retirement plan is to depend on Social Security.

Before any of this Covid nonsense happened, SS was going broke. Before Trump was ever elected, SS paid out so little, that you were basically going to live in poverty until you die, if Social Security was your retirement plan.

Anyone who plans to retire on Social Security is an idiot. You need to be saving for your own retirement out of your own income, like everyone else should be doing.

Social Security is the most poverty creating program in US history. Don't be stupid. Save for retirement.
We don’t have to be worse than Europe. Maybe we’re still better but not as much as we were before Reagan bush and trump.

And when I say we’re not better than we were before I mean the middle class. The rich are doing great.

Half of me is working class and half is investor class. As a worker I disagree with you. As an investor I partially agree with you. And when I agree I certainly don’t agree on your suggested remedies.
Again, factually speaking, we are way better off after the 1980s, than before.

If you telling me that the working class, TODAY.... is worse off, than the working class of the 1970s.... or before.... you are crazy. You are factually incorrect sir.

We are way way way better off than the people in the 1970s or before.

The middle class TODAY... is better off than the middle class of the 1970s.

And yes, investors are better off too. You know who is an investor? Likely.... 70% of the population?

55% of people have investments in the stock market.
65% have property investments.
15% have pensions, which are in fact investments, typically in the stock market.

And there are millions with annuities, and those are typically invested in stocks too.

And by the way, there is a connection between investment and labor. Most jobs wouldn't exist without investment.

So while someone might claim "The investor class is doing well, but the working class is not".... really? Because without the investments, hundreds of millions of jobs wouldn't exist, and those workers would be far worse off.
Honestly I grew up in the 70s and 80s in metro Detroit. Back then a guy could graduate high school and go find a job that would support a family of 5. One income. One bread winner.

Today to do as well you have to go to college and how much does that cost? So blue collar are not better off today and back in my day college was $5000 a year. I worked in the summer and saved most of my tuition. Maybe my dad had to chip in $1000 a year so I didn’t need student loans.

And honestly, for years I had a college degree but wasn’t doing as well as my dad did. I am now but that is common now especially for millennials. First generation who won’t do better than their parents.

I may make more than my dad ever did but am I better off? Fuck no. My dad has great retirement benefits through ford. And a pension. He took the buy out.

Oh yea and me. I make $100k a year give or take now. Have for the past 5 years. I’m 49. So let’s say I’ve got to at least work till I’m 62 to collect social security and Medicare. If they let me retire with those things at 62 I will I don’t care how much I lose for retiring early.

BUT. If I would have went to work at ford when I graduated highschool at 17, I’d already be getting a 30 year pension 2 years ago. At the age of 47. So even though I’m balling and have no debt, I’m still going to have to work 15 more years than if I would have just taken that union job at ford.

plus i wouldn’t have spent that $20,000 on a bachelors degree.
If I only made $100k per yr I would be depressed.
Why should people who make $60k and have $100,000 in student loan debt vote republican? You probably like that th3 ceo makes 300x what they make right?

But you, if you really make more than me, you should vote republican. But if you don’t you shouldn’t.

Arent you that fat foreign guy? Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else?
I vote Republican because Democrats tell me that men may identity as women
Ha! I was just telling a guy name unkotare how they use gay to con poor and middle class Americans into voting republican. Without these wedge issues like guns, racism, abortion these people would have no business voting republican. Republicans are not pro labor. Period.
How so?
Because republicans are against employees unionizing. Their way brought wages down.

Because republicans won’t go after illegal employers. So they arent really trying to kick illegals out. A wall. Ha!

Because trumps fixes to nafta and trade with ch8na did nothing to help labor. And only american companies a little. Only enough for trump to claim a victory.

Youre being conned
Unions are stupid. Republicans are for lower taxes and fewer regulations. You’re uneducated by your own admission so please stop trying to sound smart.
Republicans are against paying labor more too. Driving wages down. How? By sending jobs overseas and hiring illegal workers
Not true at all. Fewer regulations equates to more business openings and expansion and more jobs. Trump brought jobs back and halted corporate inversions.
More jobs but lower paying.

But I’m not so against lower wages anymore. As long as it’s not my wages. You and I make more than the average american with two kids. I’m not worrying about them anymore

but remember you admitted that if you made what they all make, your be depressed. So why should they vote like you vote when you’re for lower wages for them?
lower pay?? how so?
Look at companies like Toyota and Honda Compared to ford and gm. More temps than full time employees.

That’s just one example.

Do you even have to ask?

Republicans applaud companies who’s CEOs make the most but employees make the least.
PROOF PLEASE--you just babbled..how about some facts and figures--FOR ONCE!!!!
Look it up
We have looked it up. There is no example of lower pay.

You show me the example of lower pay. You show me the wielder that in 1970 was earning $50/hour, and today is earning $10/hour.

There is no such example anywhere. None. Zero. Even adjusted for inflation, no such example.

We have looked it up. You are wrong. This is why we are asking you to look it up, so you can educate yourself on your false beliefs.
Ford scores higher in 6 areas dummy. Overall rating, career opportunpities, work life balance, senior management, culture and values and % recommended to a friend.

Big three workers make $27 hr Toyota $25.

Keep in mind Toyota only pays what they pay because if they didn’t their employees would unionize.

Engineers at ford make $37 hr Toyota engineers make $32

Ford has 3400 temp workers. I’m looking at an article about Toyota extending plant shutdown and will stop paying 5000 temps.
What does any of that have to do with anything?

You made the claim that people are paid less today, than they were yesterday.

Are you saying that Toyota Engineers were making $37/hour and now they are making $32 an hour?

I'm not asking you if some employees are choosing to work for a company that pays less money.

Which employee was making $37/hour yesterday, or last year, or last decade, and today is making $32/hour?

Unless they suck. I've known some engineers, that honestly were not worth $15/hour.

How much was Toyota paying engineers 30 years ago? Is more... or less... than how much engineers are paid today?

And honestly, Toyota Engineers are paid $32/hour? Oh my bleeding heart..... oh the horror....

You know that German automotive engineers in Germany right now, earn less than that?

Evidence my friend. Evidence. You are complaining about better working conditions than other first world countries offer.

Engineers come here from Europe, and earn more working for Toyota.



View attachment 389136
I do not even believe you honestly.

Figures about pay scales are horribly easy to mislead with.

No two engineers are identical by any stretch. One engineer can have 10 years of experience, while another might have only 3 years of experience. Another engineer might have 15 years of experience, but in a field where there are dozens of engineers, while another engineer with only 5 years of experience might specialize in a field that few others do.

Just saying "well this group of engineers collectively is paid less or more than another group" is just ridiculous. You don't know what experience they have, what they specialize in, or anything.

They are not significantly paid less than people at Ford. If they were, no one would work there.

Overall, wages have gone up.... PERIOD. They have gone up, and what you posted doesn't contradict that.

We have the highest wages, and then highest standard of living in the world, and people need to be less spoiled, less complaining, and more grateful for what we have.
Was all this true on Obama's watch or only after Trump got into office?

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.

I'm talking about these people: the median weekly earnings are $933, or about $48,516 per year.
Who are these people? Do you know any?
Medium income is $47,000 a year. That’s what I imagine most Americans are working with.

And even though it’s probably tough to raise a family on that, $47,000 isn’t that bad. I don’t think the masses should all be making more than that.

The more I talk to you guys the more I realize things probably aren’t as bad as I think. But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table. And I don’t want government cutting my social security no matter how much I make. I’m going to want that extra $300 a month when I’m retired. Cutting my social security 20% would not be cool and that’s what republicans want to do.

And before you deny it, don’t lie. Like yesterday trump said he doesn’t want to do away with pre existing conditions but we know that’s a fucking lie

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?
I hope he does away with the ban on pre-existing conditions.

Do you want affordable health insurance for 90% of the country or not? Yes or no, dude. Because you can't get affordable health care, while being forced to pay for people who don't buy health insurance.

I was working at a place some years bad, and there was a guy that canceled his insurance, and said he'll just get insurance if he gets sick.

See, this is another case, where because you can't see how it directly effects you, then you are fine with it.

But if your health insurance payment, had it itemized to show how much you are paying for your own policy, and how many paying for people who intentionally did not buy insurance, and then got sick, and now you have to cover the cost of their care.....

You yourself would be SCREAMING to have pre-existing condition clauses.

But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table.

Every company that has allowed labor to have a seat at the table, has imploded in on itself. Do you like employees losing their jobs?

Ask the people of Toyota or Honda, if they wish they had the seat at the table like those of Chrysler before they became a subsidiary of Fiat.

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

The irony of that statement is that right-wingers routinely provide vastly more help than left-wingers, throughout the entire world, and especially in the US.

We routinely do far more to actually help people, than the left-wing. Left-wingers only demand that OTHER PEOPLE help the poor or sick.
I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!
So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?
That is up to your employer and what they negotiate with that carrier. But yes, that carrier should not have an obligation to do so, however, they likely will because they are making millions off that employer and most of the people who sign up won't have such conditions.

So let me ask you this. I have a family of four and knock on wood all healthy. I should pay the same as some guy with a family of six, who smokes, has diabetes and has a wife who is constantly at the doctor and kids too as he has so many? How is that equitable to me?
Because knock on wood don’t work. But they should reward non smokers or healthy people. That’s a great idea.
But they don’t. How about dem apples. System is broken.
Trump will fix it. Or I guess we’ll just keep the current system where you don’t only insure healthy people.

How bout this. Anyone with a pre existing can get Medicare.
Medicare is going broke right now. You want to jack up taxes on the lower and middle class to pay for it? How much more in taxes do you want to pay? 5% more? 10% more?
Ton of fraud in Medicaid. I d start there and I d get the administrators out of the way. Create a free market in healthcare as happened with LASIK. Now LASIK is very affordable due to market forces.
I know 5 people on disability. Of all of them, one truly deserves it. She got in an accident and she’s no right in the head. She was making good money she didn’t ask for or deserve her situation. The others are all losers. Or their health problems ar3 their own fault.

Bu5 one just told me she gets $1200 a month but he’s to pay $500 for all her healthcare so $700 probably gets eaten up with bills. I don’t know how she’s going to be able to continue living on her own. Financially she can’t afford to live here. She said her brother has a finished basement so eventually she’ll probably do that.

So each of these people is costing us $12,000 a year. Geez
Sucks and sad. She couldn’t sue?
I forgot the details but nope. At least not yet. Her boyfriend is her caregiver he’s in hell.
Odd. She needed a better lawyer
 

Papageorgio

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....

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.
......
There is no "class warfare" no matter how badly the democrats want it.

Your shrink is doing a piss-poor job. You can't go half a day without gassing on about how 'rich' you think you are. You are pathologically shallow and insecure. What a poor fucking excuse for a human being.
If the rich lobby politicians to cut social programs so they can get tax cuts, that’s class warfare stupid boy.

If the rich in the 80s start hiring illegals to avoid paying American wages, that’s class warfare you idiot. This has cost the middle class billions and profited corporations billions every year fool.

If they send our highest paying manufacturing jobs to mexico, that’s class warfare dummy.

If they break unions, that’s class warfare

And now it’s all secretive because of citizens united.
So how did you start making good money, you are not that different than others, you were not union, so, I’m not seeing class warfare. Your brother according to you is doing well.

In America if you work hard and find a niche, you make money, your excuses are just that, excuses.
Ever been in sales? Well I’ve worked for many shitty companies. They’re business model is to hire 90% more salespeople than you think you need. Pay them 100% commission and watch all 100% of them work their asses for 8 months and watch 90% of them fail. Some right away, some in a month, some in 2, 3, 4-7 months and by month 8 you have the 10% you’re going to keep.

Then repeat and do it every 6 months. The 10% don’t mind because when the new people quit they get their accounts.

I made it to the 10%. I didn’t like this business model. But when people are looking for jobs and there aren’t any they’ll take the chance. I took this job right out of college during hw Bush’s shitty 4 years. I went back after the gw Great Recession and didn’t make it. But it led to this job luckily.

Also keep in mind it doesn’t look good if you bounce from job to job but in sales it’s almost unavoidable if you want to try to make more money and if you don’t succeed and get let go that looks bad on a job interview. So it’s easy to say just go find another better job. Good luck with that.

Ive seen first hand how sales got fucked with in the past 20 plus years. Just because I finally found a good job doesn’t mean I forgot.
Used to be in sales, I knew I was better and created my own business.
I tried starting my own business. It’s not for me. I commend you unless you had someone help you financially then I would commend them.

I find I’m happiest working for someone else. Salary, vacation days, commissions, 401k, sick day, they pay for rent and all my supplies. Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem.

And it would have been great owning my own business if I had 3 jobs a day. The toughest days were days where I didn’t have any jobs so I would prospect for new business. So I was working and not making anything. At my company Now when I’m prospecting, I’m being paid.
....

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.
......
There is no "class warfare" no matter how badly the democrats want it.

Your shrink is doing a piss-poor job. You can't go half a day without gassing on about how 'rich' you think you are. You are pathologically shallow and insecure. What a poor fucking excuse for a human being.
If the rich lobby politicians to cut social programs so they can get tax cuts, that’s class warfare stupid boy.

If the rich in the 80s start hiring illegals to avoid paying American wages, that’s class warfare you idiot. This has cost the middle class billions and profited corporations billions every year fool.

If they send our highest paying manufacturing jobs to mexico, that’s class warfare dummy.

If they break unions, that’s class warfare

And now it’s all secretive because of citizens united.
So how did you start making good money, you are not that different than others, you were not union, so, I’m not seeing class warfare. Your brother according to you is doing well.

In America if you work hard and find a niche, you make money, your excuses are just that, excuses.
Ever been in sales? Well I’ve worked for many shitty companies. They’re business model is to hire 90% more salespeople than you think you need. Pay them 100% commission and watch all 100% of them work their asses for 8 months and watch 90% of them fail. Some right away, some in a month, some in 2, 3, 4-7 months and by month 8 you have the 10% you’re going to keep.

Then repeat and do it every 6 months. The 10% don’t mind because when the new people quit they get their accounts.

I made it to the 10%. I didn’t like this business model. But when people are looking for jobs and there aren’t any they’ll take the chance. I took this job right out of college during hw Bush’s shitty 4 years. I went back after the gw Great Recession and didn’t make it. But it led to this job luckily.

Also keep in mind it doesn’t look good if you bounce from job to job but in sales it’s almost unavoidable if you want to try to make more money and if you don’t succeed and get let go that looks bad on a job interview. So it’s easy to say just go find another better job. Good luck with that.

Ive seen first hand how sales got fucked with in the past 20 plus years. Just because I finally found a good job doesn’t mean I forgot.
Used to be in sales, I knew I was better and created my own business.
I tried starting my own business. It’s not for me. I commend you unless you had someone help you financially then I would commend them.

I find I’m happiest working for someone else. Salary, vacation days, commissions, 401k, sick day, they pay for rent and all my supplies. Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem.

And it would have been great owning my own business if I had 3 jobs a day. The toughest days were days where I didn’t have any jobs so I would prospect for new business. So I was working and not making anything. At my company Now when I’m prospecting, I’m being paid.
....

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.
......
There is no "class warfare" no matter how badly the democrats want it.

Your shrink is doing a piss-poor job. You can't go half a day without gassing on about how 'rich' you think you are. You are pathologically shallow and insecure. What a poor fucking excuse for a human being.
If the rich lobby politicians to cut social programs so they can get tax cuts, that’s class warfare stupid boy.

If the rich in the 80s start hiring illegals to avoid paying American wages, that’s class warfare you idiot. This has cost the middle class billions and profited corporations billions every year fool.

If they send our highest paying manufacturing jobs to mexico, that’s class warfare dummy.

If they break unions, that’s class warfare

And now it’s all secretive because of citizens united.
So how did you start making good money, you are not that different than others, you were not union, so, I’m not seeing class warfare. Your brother according to you is doing well.

In America if you work hard and find a niche, you make money, your excuses are just that, excuses.
Ever been in sales? Well I’ve worked for many shitty companies. They’re business model is to hire 90% more salespeople than you think you need. Pay them 100% commission and watch all 100% of them work their asses for 8 months and watch 90% of them fail. Some right away, some in a month, some in 2, 3, 4-7 months and by month 8 you have the 10% you’re going to keep.

Then repeat and do it every 6 months. The 10% don’t mind because when the new people quit they get their accounts.

I made it to the 10%. I didn’t like this business model. But when people are looking for jobs and there aren’t any they’ll take the chance. I took this job right out of college during hw Bush’s shitty 4 years. I went back after the gw Great Recession and didn’t make it. But it led to this job luckily.

Also keep in mind it doesn’t look good if you bounce from job to job but in sales it’s almost unavoidable if you want to try to make more money and if you don’t succeed and get let go that looks bad on a job interview. So it’s easy to say just go find another better job. Good luck with that.

Ive seen first hand how sales got fucked with in the past 20 plus years. Just because I finally found a good job doesn’t mean I forgot.
Used to be in sales, I knew I was better and created my own business.
I tried starting my own business. It’s not for me. I commend you unless you had someone help you financially then I would commend them.

I find I’m happiest working for someone else. Salary, vacation days, commissions, 401k, sick day, they pay for rent and all my supplies. Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem.

And it would have been great owning my own business if I had 3 jobs a day. The toughest days were days where I didn’t have any jobs so I would prospect for new business. So I was working and not making anything. At my company Now when I’m prospecting, I’m being paid.
I preferred working in my own business. I had three companies and sold all three and now I work for a small company mostly because it is enjoyable and I don’t have the worries that
Go with owning my own.
 

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