15,000 empty apartments in Manhattan.

[Andylusion]

....

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.
......

There is no "class warfare" no matter how badly the democrats want it.

Your shrink is doing a piss-poor job. You can't go half a day without gassing on about how 'rich' you think you are. You are pathologically shallow and insecure. What a poor fucking excuse for a human being.

If the rich lobby politicians to cut social programs so they can get tax cuts, that’s class warfare stupid boy.

If the rich in the 80s start hiring illegals to avoid paying American wages, that’s class warfare you idiot. This has cost the middle class billions and profited corporations billions every year fool.

If they send our highest paying manufacturing jobs to mexico, that’s class warfare dummy.

If they break unions, that’s class warfare

And now it’s all secretive because of citizens united.

So how did you start making good money, you are not that different than others, you were not union, so, I’m not seeing class warfare. Your brother according to you is doing well.

In America if you work hard and find a niche, you make money, your excuses are just that, excuses.

Ever been in sales? Well I’ve worked for many shitty companies. They’re business model is to hire 90% more salespeople than you think you need. Pay them 100% commission and watch all 100% of them work their asses for 8 months and watch 90% of them fail. Some right away, some in a month, some in 2, 3, 4-7 months and by month 8 you have the 10% you’re going to keep.

Then repeat and do it every 6 months. The 10% don’t mind because when the new people quit they get their accounts.

I made it to the 10%. I didn’t like this business model. But when people are looking for jobs and there aren’t any they’ll take the chance. I took this job right out of college during hw Bush’s shitty 4 years. I went back after the gw Great Recession and didn’t make it. But it led to this job luckily.

Also keep in mind it doesn’t look good if you bounce from job to job but in sales it’s almost unavoidable if you want to try to make more money and if you don’t succeed and get let go that looks bad on a job interview. So it’s easy to say just go find another better job. Good luck with that.

Ive seen first hand how sales got fucked with in the past 20 plus years. Just because I finally found a good job doesn’t mean I forgot.

Used to be in sales, I knew I was better and created my own business.

I tried starting my own business. It’s not for me. I commend you unless you had someone help you financially then I would commend them.

I find I’m happiest working for someone else. Salary, vacation days, commissions, 401k, sick day, they pay for rent and all my supplies. Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem.

And it would have been great owning my own business if I had 3 jobs a day. The toughest days were days where I didn’t have any jobs so I would prospect for new business. So I was working and not making anything. At my company Now when I’m prospecting, I’m being paid.

See, to me that is a weird statement. You are acting like, money is all that is required to make a successful business, and the guy running the place isn't worth commending. And the real irony is that even in your own post, you indicate the opposite.

I find I’m happiest working for someone else. Salary, vacation days, commissions, 401k, sick day, they pay for rent and all my supplies. Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem.

Do you not see the irony there? You enjoy all those things, which people who start their own business don't have. But you would rather commend the financial backers, than the person doing the work.

My last long term job, the CEO of the company, who owned the company, was on a vacation. A customer called in with a critical problem with our products. The CEO flew back from vacation on Wednesday morning, worked all day Wednesday and Thursday, and flew back to vacation, Thursday night, only to come back Saturday.

And he deserves no commendation?

When you were an employee, and went on vacation, did you get called back to fix problems? Likely no. I know I've never been called on vacation.

Same guy, the following year, we had a huge deployment of products, for outdoor use. A week after deployment, the customer sent back pictures that the units had filled with water after a rain storm.

The CEO, the VP, the head of sales, and the head of engineering, all rented a van, drove down to Florida, and worked all night long for two days, repairing the units.

And he deserves no commendation?

The average CEO works between 50 and 60 hours a week. And when things go wrong, they don't contact the employee on the production line, they contact the people in charge.

You like having no responsibilities "Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem." but then don't want to give credit to the people who do own the responsibilities.

So I was working and not making anything. At my company Now when I’m prospecting, I’m being paid.

Again, that's our point. The reason why Bezo today has billions, is because when the company started, and there was no business.... Bezo earned nothing.

The employees still collected a check, while Bezo just lost money, paying people to try and find work.

That's why as the business improves, now he's a multi-billionaire.

1-800-GOT-JUNK, when Scudamore was building his junk removal service, when there was no work, he was driving around hunting for trash that needed removed, driving up and down roads looking for work earning nothing.

Do you see the issue? When left-wingers say "Why does the CEO earn 20X the wages of the employee" this is why. He owns the risk. He built the place, or keeps it running. He owns the responsibility. He takes on the tough choices.

The employees sit back, collect a check, and say "Not my problem" right? Why should employees be paid more, when they own the responsibility of nothing? Why should they be paid more when they invested none of their own money in the business?

 

[Andylusion]

Back then a guy could graduate high school and go find a job that would support a family of 5. One income. One bread winner.

Bullshit!

The bold text, from the prior post, was a quote from the previous post. That was what I was responding to.

 

[Andylusion]

....

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.
......

There is no "class warfare" no matter how badly the democrats want it.

Your shrink is doing a piss-poor job. You can't go half a day without gassing on about how 'rich' you think you are. You are pathologically shallow and insecure. What a poor fucking excuse for a human being.

If the rich lobby politicians to cut social programs so they can get tax cuts, that’s class warfare stupid boy.

If the rich in the 80s start hiring illegals to avoid paying American wages, that’s class warfare you idiot. This has cost the middle class billions and profited corporations billions every year fool.

If they send our highest paying manufacturing jobs to mexico, that’s class warfare dummy.

If they break unions, that’s class warfare

And now it’s all secretive because of citizens united.

I don't know of a single person anywhere, lobbying to cut social programs to get a tax cut.

Moreover, that isn't class warfare.

*I* personally, with my $30,000 income, want to cut taxes, and cut social programs.

Further, social programs have done far more harm, than good. In fact, one of the primary reasons that I oppose social programs, is specifically because they harm people.

Charity, which is over whelmingly the rich and the conservatives, genuinely help people.

Social programs just keep people enslaved, and poor, and beholden to the government.

If they send our highest paying manufacturing jobs to mexico, that’s class warfare dummy.

That is also, not class warfare.

If you cannot make something profitable in the US, then you are going to make it elsewhere, or... not make it at all.

Things that are not profitable to be made... are simply not made.

If they break unions, that’s class warfare

That is most certainly not class warfare. Unions have done more to damage their members, than any group in human history.

You want to wreck the middle class? Unionize.

Besides, most unions have not been broken by government or corporations. Most unions have been destroyed by.... the Unions. The unions destroy their own jobs, and wreck themselves.

And by the way, this true the world over.

BBC World Service - Assignment, France – The Tale of Two Factories

In the town of Amiens tyre manufacturers Goodyear and Dunlop face very different fates

www.bbc.co.uk

2 Tire Factories With Different Trajectories Reveal Social Schisms in France (Published 2013)

One company is closing and the other has a promising future after workers agreed to concessions that many consider to be onerous.

www.nytimes.com

Two factories in France. Same town. Same people. Same product even. Both made tires for agricultural use.

Both were unionized. Both started losing money, and were on the verge of being closed down completely.

Instead, one factory the employees themselves, kicked out the Union, adopted cost cutting measures, slightly lower wages, more productivity.

The other factory refused to make any concessions, and was closed.

The non-union factory is doing well. The other is closed.

Unions are the number one destroyer of Unions.

 

[Andylusion]

Anyone know if NYC still has apartment rent control policies?

Never could figure out how city government could force property owners to charge rents below what the market would naturally determine.

Yes. They do. For a long time, they were limiting those rent controls to older apartments buildings, built during a specific time frame, but more recently with Andrew Cuomo and Blasio, they have expanded it.

Governor Cuomo Signs Sweeping Rent Control and Rent Stabilization Reforms into Law - CityLand

Image Credit: New York Senate. The law places limits on various mechanisms through which landlords of rent-regulated units can raise rent and provides many other protections for tenants. On June 14, 2019, Governor Andrew M. Cuomo signed into law the Housing Stability and Tenant Protection Act of...

www.citylandnyc.org

Cuomo did this, and the results were predictable and swift.

 

[Unkotare]

...This argument for me is more phylisophical [sic]....

Oh, sales monkey...

You just keep reinforcing your tragically pathetic image.

 

[Andylusion]

Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.

Manhattan rental market plunges, leaving 15,000 empty apartments in August

Hopes for a rebound in the fall or the end of 2020 look increasingly unlikely. Although rental prices have come down, the discounts are not steep enough yet to lure new renters back to the city.

www.cnbc.com

Some people in Manhattan can afford multiple houses. It's an unfamiliar concept for most red states....unless the houses have wheels.
When the city locks down, there is little reason to continue living there and paying rent on an apartment. Once it opens back up completely, the city will once again be the envy of every red state low-life.

You mistakenly think that most Red State residents want what New York City has, Candy. They don't. They like living where they do. You know what they don't like? When liberals from places like New York and California move to a Red State and set about trying to destroy their new homes like they did their old ones.

Yeah, that has always been the most frustrating aspect for me, is that the same left-wingers that destroy their own cities, then leave those cities.

Yet people like Candy sit there and say "Everyone loves those places", when they are all leaving.

Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.

Manhattan rental market plunges, leaving 15,000 empty apartments in August

Hopes for a rebound in the fall or the end of 2020 look increasingly unlikely. Although rental prices have come down, the discounts are not steep enough yet to lure new renters back to the city.

www.cnbc.com

It is way too expensive to live in nyc. People who worked in nyc but now work from home have moved to places where their salaries go a lot further.

Shuli on the Howard stern show moved to Alabama. With what he makes he’s rich in Alabama. If you can work from home why live in a city where $100,000 a year is not a lot?

And whose fault is that?

You jack up taxes, jack up regulations, jack up housing policy, jack up the police so that crime is everywhere, which increases costs on the city.... and then you say "It's too expensive to live there" as if that just fell out of the sky randomly.

No it didn't. Bad policies caused this.

And by the way, they could have had thousands of well paying jobs in NYC when Amazon built an HQ there, but AOC drove them out. Brilliant.

Hey, if you want to live or do business in ny you have to pay. Otherwise go to Alabama. Use their ports and tear up their roads.

Well that's kind of my point. They are not, and they leaving.

People are leaving NYC. That's the point. This is true everywhere.

When France implemented their wealth tax... they said the same thing. "Hey, if you want to live and do business in France, you have to pay!"

and you know what happened????

Wealth tax is forcing 12,000 millionaires PER YEAR out of France

Edouard Philippe defended President Emmanuel Macrons' new tax break for the wealthiest, saying it is needed stem the increasing flow of the richest leaving France.

www.dailymail.co.uk

They left! They were packing up their wealthy, their businesses, and their families, and leaving.

Famously in Jamaica, when PM Manly passed all his socialist crap.... he said openly "There are six flights a day to Miami"... and people started taking the flights to Miami. They left.

You can't hurt the rich. Only yourself. It was poor people of Jamaica that end up dealing with the joblessness and high crime.

The rich left.

Same in NYC. The rich are leaving. The poor are stuck jobless, and victimized by the criminals.

So, yes.... they will leave.

Then don’t expect America to be great again. Not if you are middle class. The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.

If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.

I actually don't believe that America was ever not great. At least thus far. America has never ceased being great.

The only people who think that America has declined, are the fools who have never lived, or been elsewhere, or know people who live elsewhere.

I do. I've been to Europe. I know people who live in Europe right now. And if you think America is not better than Europe, or the rest of the world, you are crazy. You don't know what you are talking about.

People in Europe live lower standards of living, universally. Smaller houses, smaller cars, smaller appliances, less spending money, less entertainment.

There is no possible way to measure the standards of living in the rest of the world, and compare to the US, and not have the US be better.

Why do think we have millions of people trying to get into this country? It's one of the most baffling aspects of Left-wing contradictions, that you want open borders to let people freely come into the country, and at the same time claim the country is declining and everything is terrible, and America is racists and evil.

Those are mutually exclusive positions. People don't risk their lives, to get into places that are terrible.

The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

No, I don't buy that. You show me one person who walked the exact same path as their parents, and is worse off.

I'm not making the same money as my parents, but that's because I am not in the same career as my parents.

I have relatives, where their parents were wielders. Their son, became a wielder too. Their son is make more money than his parents did, when they were his age.

I know engineers, and they make more money in engineering than their parents who were engineers.

And as far as the standard of living.... no you are still crazy.

My standard of living today, is better than my parents when they were my age. By quite a bit too.

My house is bigger, than the house they had at my age. I have had central air conditioning since I was in college, in 1999. My parents didn't have air conditioning until they were in their late 50s. Microwaves, internet, computers, instapots. My parents didn't have cable TV until they were in their late 50s, and in fact, didn't even own a TV until they were in their late 40s.

I've had all of that, and smart phones, and GPS driving directions, and on and on and on.

We today, are miles and miles beyond where are parents were at the same age. You are crazy if you think otherwise. Absolutely crazy.

The poorest WORKING people today, have a higher standard of living, than the middle class of the 1970s. By a MASSIVE margin.

Now if you are living off welfare and unemployment, and not working consistently full time, then yeah, they are falling way behind, and need to get off their butts, and work for what they want.

But the poorest working people putting in full days work every day.... no they are way beyond where the middle class was in the 1970s, or even 1980s.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.
If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.

Social Security was going broke before Trump was even running for office.

You are fool if your retirement plan is to depend on Social Security.

Before any of this Covid nonsense happened, SS was going broke. Before Trump was ever elected, SS paid out so little, that you were basically going to live in poverty until you die, if Social Security was your retirement plan.

Anyone who plans to retire on Social Security is an idiot. You need to be saving for your own retirement out of your own income, like everyone else should be doing.

Social Security is the most poverty creating program in US history. Don't be stupid. Save for retirement.

We don’t have to be worse than Europe. Maybe we’re still better but not as much as we were before Reagan bush and trump.

And when I say we’re not better than we were before I mean the middle class. The rich are doing great.

Half of me is working class and half is investor class. As a worker I disagree with you. As an investor I partially agree with you. And when I agree I certainly don’t agree on your suggested remedies.

Again, factually speaking, we are way better off after the 1980s, than before.

If you telling me that the working class, TODAY.... is worse off, than the working class of the 1970s.... or before.... you are crazy. You are factually incorrect sir.

We are way way way better off than the people in the 1970s or before.

The middle class TODAY... is better off than the middle class of the 1970s.

And yes, investors are better off too. You know who is an investor? Likely.... 70% of the population?

55% of people have investments in the stock market.
65% have property investments.
15% have pensions, which are in fact investments, typically in the stock market.

And there are millions with annuities, and those are typically invested in stocks too.

And by the way, there is a connection between investment and labor. Most jobs wouldn't exist without investment.

So while someone might claim "The investor class is doing well, but the working class is not".... really? Because without the investments, hundreds of millions of jobs wouldn't exist, and those workers would be far worse off.

Honestly I grew up in the 70s and 80s in metro Detroit. Back then a guy could graduate high school and go find a job that would support a family of 5. One income. One bread winner.

Today to do as well you have to go to college and how much does that cost? So blue collar are not better off today and back in my day college was $5000 a year. I worked in the summer and saved most of my tuition. Maybe my dad had to chip in $1000 a year so I didn’t need student loans.

And honestly, for years I had a college degree but wasn’t doing as well as my dad did. I am now but that is common now especially for millennials. First generation who won’t do better than their parents.

I may make more than my dad ever did but am I better off? Fuck no. My dad has great retirement benefits through ford. And a pension. He took the buy out.

Oh yea and me. I make $100k a year give or take now. Have for the past 5 years. I’m 49. So let’s say I’ve got to at least work till I’m 62 to collect social security and Medicare. If they let me retire with those things at 62 I will I don’t care how much I lose for retiring early.

BUT. If I would have went to work at ford when I graduated highschool at 17, I’d already be getting a 30 year pension 2 years ago. At the age of 47. So even though I’m balling and have no debt, I’m still going to have to work 15 more years than if I would have just taken that union job at ford.

plus i wouldn’t have spent that $20,000 on a bachelors degree.

If I only made $100k per yr I would be depressed.

Why should people who make $60k and have $100,000 in student loan debt vote republican? You probably like that th3 ceo makes 300x what they make right?

But you, if you really make more than me, you should vote republican. But if you don’t you shouldn’t.

Arent you that fat foreign guy? Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else?

I vote Republican because Democrats tell me that men may identity as women

Ha! I was just telling a guy name unkotare how they use gay to con poor and middle class Americans into voting republican. Without these wedge issues like guns, racism, abortion these people would have no business voting republican. Republicans are not pro labor. Period.

How so?

Because republicans are against employees unionizing. Their way brought wages down.

Because republicans won’t go after illegal employers. So they arent really trying to kick illegals out. A wall. Ha!

Because trumps fixes to nafta and trade with ch8na did nothing to help labor. And only american companies a little. Only enough for trump to claim a victory.

Youre being conned

Unions are stupid. Republicans are for lower taxes and fewer regulations. You’re uneducated by your own admission so please stop trying to sound smart.

Republicans are against paying labor more too. Driving wages down. How? By sending jobs overseas and hiring illegal workers

Not true at all. Fewer regulations equates to more business openings and expansion and more jobs. Trump brought jobs back and halted corporate inversions.

More jobs but lower paying.

But I’m not so against lower wages anymore. As long as it’s not my wages. You and I make more than the average american with two kids. I’m not worrying about them anymore

but remember you admitted that if you made what they all make, your be depressed. So why should they vote like you vote when you’re for lower wages for them?

lower pay?? how so?

Look at companies like Toyota and Honda Compared to ford and gm. More temps than full time employees.

That’s just one example.

Do you even have to ask?

Republicans applaud companies who’s CEOs make the most but employees make the least.

PROOF PLEASE--you just babbled..how about some facts and figures--FOR ONCE!!!!

Look it up

We have looked it up. There is no example of lower pay.

You show me the example of lower pay. You show me the wielder that in 1970 was earning $50/hour, and today is earning $10/hour.

There is no such example anywhere. None. Zero. Even adjusted for inflation, no such example.

We have looked it up. You are wrong. This is why we are asking you to look it up, so you can educate yourself on your false beliefs.

Ford scores higher in 6 areas dummy. Overall rating, career opportunpities, work life balance, senior management, culture and values and % recommended to a friend.

Big three workers make $27 hr Toyota $25.

Keep in mind Toyota only pays what they pay because if they didn’t their employees would unionize.

Engineers at ford make $37 hr Toyota engineers make $32

Ford has 3400 temp workers. I’m looking at an article about Toyota extending plant shutdown and will stop paying 5000 temps.

What does any of that have to do with anything?

You made the claim that people are paid less today, than they were yesterday.

Are you saying that Toyota Engineers were making $37/hour and now they are making $32 an hour?

I'm not asking you if some employees are choosing to work for a company that pays less money.

Which employee was making $37/hour yesterday, or last year, or last decade, and today is making $32/hour?

Unless they suck. I've known some engineers, that honestly were not worth $15/hour.

How much was Toyota paying engineers 30 years ago? Is more... or less... than how much engineers are paid today?

And honestly, Toyota Engineers are paid $32/hour? Oh my bleeding heart..... oh the horror....

You know that German automotive engineers in Germany right now, earn less than that?

Automotive Engineer Salary in Germany in 2024 | PayScale

The average salary for an Automotive Engineer in Germany is €58,172 in 2024. Visit PayScale to research automotive engineer salaries by city, experience, skill, employer and more.

www.payscale.com

Evidence my friend. Evidence. You are complaining about better working conditions than other first world countries offer.

Engineers come here from Europe, and earn more working for Toyota.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Compare/Ford-Motor-Company-vs-Toyota-North-America-EI_IE263-E3544.htm

View attachment 389136
I do not even believe you honestly.

Figures about pay scales are horribly easy to mislead with.

No two engineers are identical by any stretch. One engineer can have 10 years of experience, while another might have only 3 years of experience. Another engineer might have 15 years of experience, but in a field where there are dozens of engineers, while another engineer with only 5 years of experience might specialize in a field that few others do.

Just saying "well this group of engineers collectively is paid less or more than another group" is just ridiculous. You don't know what experience they have, what they specialize in, or anything.

They are not significantly paid less than people at Ford. If they were, no one would work there.

Overall, wages have gone up.... PERIOD. They have gone up, and what you posted doesn't contradict that.

We have the highest wages, and then highest standard of living in the world, and people need to be less spoiled, less complaining, and more grateful for what we have.

Was all this true on Obama's watch or only after Trump got into office?

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.

I'm talking about these people: the median weekly earnings are $933, or about $48,516 per year.

Who are these people? Do you know any?

Medium income is $47,000 a year. That’s what I imagine most Americans are working with.

And even though it’s probably tough to raise a family on that, $47,000 isn’t that bad. I don’t think the masses should all be making more than that.

The more I talk to you guys the more I realize things probably aren’t as bad as I think. But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table. And I don’t want government cutting my social security no matter how much I make. I’m going to want that extra $300 a month when I’m retired. Cutting my social security 20% would not be cool and that’s what republicans want to do.

And before you deny it, don’t lie. Like yesterday trump said he doesn’t want to do away with pre existing conditions but we know that’s a fucking lie

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

I hope he does away with the ban on pre-existing conditions.

Do you want affordable health insurance for 90% of the country or not? Yes or no, dude. Because you can't get affordable health care, while being forced to pay for people who don't buy health insurance.

I was working at a place some years bad, and there was a guy that canceled his insurance, and said he'll just get insurance if he gets sick.

See, this is another case, where because you can't see how it directly effects you, then you are fine with it.

But if your health insurance payment, had it itemized to show how much you are paying for your own policy, and how many paying for people who intentionally did not buy insurance, and then got sick, and now you have to cover the cost of their care.....

You yourself would be SCREAMING to have pre-existing condition clauses.

But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table.

Every company that has allowed labor to have a seat at the table, has imploded in on itself. Do you like employees losing their jobs?

Ask the people of Toyota or Honda, if they wish they had the seat at the table like those of Chrysler before they became a subsidiary of Fiat.

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

The irony of that statement is that right-wingers routinely provide vastly more help than left-wingers, throughout the entire world, and especially in the US.

We routinely do far more to actually help people, than the left-wing. Left-wingers only demand that OTHER PEOPLE help the poor or sick.

Isn’t that the purpose of insurance? We all pay a little so when something bad happens to a couple of us, it doesn’t break them.

Eventually every time you get sick, you have a pre existing condition. So when you get pneumonia the insurance company can say they won’t cover your pneumonia because it’s a pre existing condition?

I don’t want to talk about this with you. I can already tell you’re going to piss me off.

I have this republican buddy who chose the low cost insurance. Then his wife got cancer and he couldn’t afford the premiumm and deductables so he had a fundraiser party. Fuck him. I didnt go and I will not pay his healthcare bills. He wanted cheap insurance he gambled so he should pay up or die.

Right?

I have this republican buddy who chose the low cost insurance. Then his wife got cancer and he couldn’t afford the premiumm and deductables so he had a fundraiser party. Fuck him. I didnt go and I will not pay his healthcare bills.

And that actually makes my entire point. Giving to charity is something I have done my entire life, all the way back to part-time McDonald job in high school.

Giving to charity, such as a fund raiser for someone who has cancer, is what really caring about people is like. This is why right-winger and conservatives, are the most charitable people in the world.

But you don't want to do that. No left-winger does. Left-wingers like you say "I will not pay his healthcare bills".

You want OTHER people to pay his bills. You demand government pay for it. Or regulations. Or health care mandates.

The irony of course is that if you have all those things, YOU will pay his bills.

You eliminate pre-existing condition clauses, and he applies for health insurance after she already has cancer.... who pays for that? You do. Where do you think insurance companies get the money to pay for her pre-existing condition?

You ask for Medicare-for-All. Who pays for that? You do. Where do you think government gets the money to pay for Medicare? YOU.

So even while you say you are not going to cover his bills through charity.... the act of actually helping someone YOURSELF.... you in essence demand that you pay higher premiums, and higher taxes to pay for his care through your bad policies.

 

[Unkotare]

...t I do think we are overpopulated ...

You are wrong. It has been demonstrated to you many times just how and why you are wrong, but you keep repeating this false crisis just like you keep repeating other idiotic leftist talking points.

You are NOT going to influence the election this way. Return the $0.25 check you got from the DNC.

 

[Unkotare]

...I find I’m happiest working for someone else. Salary, vacation days, commissions, 401k, sick day, they pay for rent and all my supplies. Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem.
.....

That fits the image you've worked so hard to foster about yourself; weak, shallow, lazy, indulgent. Pathetic.

 

[JustAGuy1]

....

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.
......

There is no "class warfare" no matter how badly the democrats want it.

Your shrink is doing a piss-poor job. You can't go half a day without gassing on about how 'rich' you think you are. You are pathologically shallow and insecure. What a poor fucking excuse for a human being.

If the rich lobby politicians to cut social programs so they can get tax cuts, that’s class warfare stupid boy.

If the rich in the 80s start hiring illegals to avoid paying American wages, that’s class warfare you idiot. This has cost the middle class billions and profited corporations billions every year fool.

If they send our highest paying manufacturing jobs to mexico, that’s class warfare dummy.

If they break unions, that’s class warfare

And now it’s all secretive because of citizens united.

So how did you start making good money, you are not that different than others, you were not union, so, I’m not seeing class warfare. Your brother according to you is doing well.

In America if you work hard and find a niche, you make money, your excuses are just that, excuses.

Ever been in sales? Well I’ve worked for many shitty companies. They’re business model is to hire 90% more salespeople than you think you need. Pay them 100% commission and watch all 100% of them work their asses for 8 months and watch 90% of them fail. Some right away, some in a month, some in 2, 3, 4-7 months and by month 8 you have the 10% you’re going to keep.

Then repeat and do it every 6 months. The 10% don’t mind because when the new people quit they get their accounts.

I made it to the 10%. I didn’t like this business model. But when people are looking for jobs and there aren’t any they’ll take the chance. I took this job right out of college during hw Bush’s shitty 4 years. I went back after the gw Great Recession and didn’t make it. But it led to this job luckily.

Also keep in mind it doesn’t look good if you bounce from job to job but in sales it’s almost unavoidable if you want to try to make more money and if you don’t succeed and get let go that looks bad on a job interview. So it’s easy to say just go find another better job. Good luck with that.

Ive seen first hand how sales got fucked with in the past 20 plus years. Just because I finally found a good job doesn’t mean I forgot.

Used to be in sales, I knew I was better and created my own business.

I tried starting my own business. It’s not for me. I commend you unless you had someone help you financially then I would commend them.

I find I’m happiest working for someone else. Salary, vacation days, commissions, 401k, sick day, they pay for rent and all my supplies. Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem.

And it would have been great owning my own business if I had 3 jobs a day. The toughest days were days where I didn’t have any jobs so I would prospect for new business. So I was working and not making anything. At my company Now when I’m prospecting, I’m being paid.

See, to me that is a weird statement. You are acting like, money is all that is required to make a successful business, and the guy running the place isn't worth commending. And the real irony is that even in your own post, you indicate the opposite.

I find I’m happiest working for someone else. Salary, vacation days, commissions, 401k, sick day, they pay for rent and all my supplies. Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem.

Do you not see the irony there? You enjoy all those things, which people who start their own business don't have. But you would rather commend the financial backers, than the person doing the work.

My last long term job, the CEO of the company, who owned the company, was on a vacation. A customer called in with a critical problem with our products. The CEO flew back from vacation on Wednesday morning, worked all day Wednesday and Thursday, and flew back to vacation, Thursday night, only to come back Saturday.

And he deserves no commendation?

When you were an employee, and went on vacation, did you get called back to fix problems? Likely no. I know I've never been called on vacation.

Same guy, the following year, we had a huge deployment of products, for outdoor use. A week after deployment, the customer sent back pictures that the units had filled with water after a rain storm.

The CEO, the VP, the head of sales, and the head of engineering, all rented a van, drove down to Florida, and worked all night long for two days, repairing the units.

And he deserves no commendation?

The average CEO works between 50 and 60 hours a week. And when things go wrong, they don't contact the employee on the production line, they contact the people in charge.

You like having no responsibilities "Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem." but then don't want to give credit to the people who do own the responsibilities.

So I was working and not making anything. At my company Now when I’m prospecting, I’m being paid.

Again, that's our point. The reason why Bezo today has billions, is because when the company started, and there was no business.... Bezo earned nothing.

The employees still collected a check, while Bezo just lost money, paying people to try and find work.

That's why as the business improves, now he's a multi-billionaire.

1-800-GOT-JUNK, when Scudamore was building his junk removal service, when there was no work, he was driving around hunting for trash that needed removed, driving up and down roads looking for work earning nothing.

Do you see the issue? When left-wingers say "Why does the CEO earn 20X the wages of the employee" this is why. He owns the risk. He built the place, or keeps it running. He owns the responsibility. He takes on the tough choices.

The employees sit back, collect a check, and say "Not my problem" right? Why should employees be paid more, when they own the responsibility of nothing? Why should they be paid more when they invested none of their own money in the business?

This is why I laugh at Progs. They have no concept of how hard it is to get a Biz up and running. They think that when you open the doors money just automatically starts flowing in.

 

[JustAGuy1]

...I find I’m happiest working for someone else. Salary, vacation days, commissions, 401k, sick day, they pay for rent and all my supplies. Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem.
.....

That fits the image you've worked so hard to foster about yourself; weak, shallow, lazy, indulgent. Pathetic.

You just keep showing that you're an authoritarian, judgmental prick. You never said....how is that ED problem you're having?

 

[Unkotare]

...I find I’m happiest working for someone else. Salary, vacation days, commissions, 401k, sick day, they pay for rent and all my supplies. Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem.
.....

That fits the image you've worked so hard to foster about yourself; weak, shallow, lazy, indulgent. Pathetic.

You just keep showing that you're an authoritarian, judgmental prick. You never said....how is that ED problem you're having?

I told you that I was vaccinated against such a thing.

 

[Andylusion]

Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.

Manhattan rental market plunges, leaving 15,000 empty apartments in August

Hopes for a rebound in the fall or the end of 2020 look increasingly unlikely. Although rental prices have come down, the discounts are not steep enough yet to lure new renters back to the city.

www.cnbc.com

It is way too expensive to live in nyc. People who worked in nyc but now work from home have moved to places where their salaries go a lot further.

Shuli on the Howard stern show moved to Alabama. With what he makes he’s rich in Alabama. If you can work from home why live in a city where $100,000 a year is not a lot?

And whose fault is that?

You jack up taxes, jack up regulations, jack up housing policy, jack up the police so that crime is everywhere, which increases costs on the city.... and then you say "It's too expensive to live there" as if that just fell out of the sky randomly.

No it didn't. Bad policies caused this.

And by the way, they could have had thousands of well paying jobs in NYC when Amazon built an HQ there, but AOC drove them out. Brilliant.

Hey, if you want to live or do business in ny you have to pay. Otherwise go to Alabama. Use their ports and tear up their roads.

Well that's kind of my point. They are not, and they leaving.

People are leaving NYC. That's the point. This is true everywhere.

When France implemented their wealth tax... they said the same thing. "Hey, if you want to live and do business in France, you have to pay!"

and you know what happened????

Wealth tax is forcing 12,000 millionaires PER YEAR out of France

Edouard Philippe defended President Emmanuel Macrons' new tax break for the wealthiest, saying it is needed stem the increasing flow of the richest leaving France.

www.dailymail.co.uk

They left! They were packing up their wealthy, their businesses, and their families, and leaving.

Famously in Jamaica, when PM Manly passed all his socialist crap.... he said openly "There are six flights a day to Miami"... and people started taking the flights to Miami. They left.

You can't hurt the rich. Only yourself. It was poor people of Jamaica that end up dealing with the joblessness and high crime.

The rich left.

Same in NYC. The rich are leaving. The poor are stuck jobless, and victimized by the criminals.

So, yes.... they will leave.

Then don’t expect America to be great again. Not if you are middle class. The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.

If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.

I actually don't believe that America was ever not great. At least thus far. America has never ceased being great.

The only people who think that America has declined, are the fools who have never lived, or been elsewhere, or know people who live elsewhere.

I do. I've been to Europe. I know people who live in Europe right now. And if you think America is not better than Europe, or the rest of the world, you are crazy. You don't know what you are talking about.

People in Europe live lower standards of living, universally. Smaller houses, smaller cars, smaller appliances, less spending money, less entertainment.

There is no possible way to measure the standards of living in the rest of the world, and compare to the US, and not have the US be better.

Why do think we have millions of people trying to get into this country? It's one of the most baffling aspects of Left-wing contradictions, that you want open borders to let people freely come into the country, and at the same time claim the country is declining and everything is terrible, and America is racists and evil.

Those are mutually exclusive positions. People don't risk their lives, to get into places that are terrible.

The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

No, I don't buy that. You show me one person who walked the exact same path as their parents, and is worse off.

I'm not making the same money as my parents, but that's because I am not in the same career as my parents.

I have relatives, where their parents were wielders. Their son, became a wielder too. Their son is make more money than his parents did, when they were his age.

I know engineers, and they make more money in engineering than their parents who were engineers.

And as far as the standard of living.... no you are still crazy.

My standard of living today, is better than my parents when they were my age. By quite a bit too.

My house is bigger, than the house they had at my age. I have had central air conditioning since I was in college, in 1999. My parents didn't have air conditioning until they were in their late 50s. Microwaves, internet, computers, instapots. My parents didn't have cable TV until they were in their late 50s, and in fact, didn't even own a TV until they were in their late 40s.

I've had all of that, and smart phones, and GPS driving directions, and on and on and on.

We today, are miles and miles beyond where are parents were at the same age. You are crazy if you think otherwise. Absolutely crazy.

The poorest WORKING people today, have a higher standard of living, than the middle class of the 1970s. By a MASSIVE margin.

Now if you are living off welfare and unemployment, and not working consistently full time, then yeah, they are falling way behind, and need to get off their butts, and work for what they want.

But the poorest working people putting in full days work every day.... no they are way beyond where the middle class was in the 1970s, or even 1980s.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.
If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.

Social Security was going broke before Trump was even running for office.

You are fool if your retirement plan is to depend on Social Security.

Before any of this Covid nonsense happened, SS was going broke. Before Trump was ever elected, SS paid out so little, that you were basically going to live in poverty until you die, if Social Security was your retirement plan.

Anyone who plans to retire on Social Security is an idiot. You need to be saving for your own retirement out of your own income, like everyone else should be doing.

Social Security is the most poverty creating program in US history. Don't be stupid. Save for retirement.

We don’t have to be worse than Europe. Maybe we’re still better but not as much as we were before Reagan bush and trump.

And when I say we’re not better than we were before I mean the middle class. The rich are doing great.

Half of me is working class and half is investor class. As a worker I disagree with you. As an investor I partially agree with you. And when I agree I certainly don’t agree on your suggested remedies.

Again, factually speaking, we are way better off after the 1980s, than before.

If you telling me that the working class, TODAY.... is worse off, than the working class of the 1970s.... or before.... you are crazy. You are factually incorrect sir.

We are way way way better off than the people in the 1970s or before.

The middle class TODAY... is better off than the middle class of the 1970s.

And yes, investors are better off too. You know who is an investor? Likely.... 70% of the population?

55% of people have investments in the stock market.
65% have property investments.
15% have pensions, which are in fact investments, typically in the stock market.

And there are millions with annuities, and those are typically invested in stocks too.

And by the way, there is a connection between investment and labor. Most jobs wouldn't exist without investment.

So while someone might claim "The investor class is doing well, but the working class is not".... really? Because without the investments, hundreds of millions of jobs wouldn't exist, and those workers would be far worse off.

Honestly I grew up in the 70s and 80s in metro Detroit. Back then a guy could graduate high school and go find a job that would support a family of 5. One income. One bread winner.

Today to do as well you have to go to college and how much does that cost? So blue collar are not better off today and back in my day college was $5000 a year. I worked in the summer and saved most of my tuition. Maybe my dad had to chip in $1000 a year so I didn’t need student loans.

And honestly, for years I had a college degree but wasn’t doing as well as my dad did. I am now but that is common now especially for millennials. First generation who won’t do better than their parents.

I may make more than my dad ever did but am I better off? Fuck no. My dad has great retirement benefits through ford. And a pension. He took the buy out.

Oh yea and me. I make $100k a year give or take now. Have for the past 5 years. I’m 49. So let’s say I’ve got to at least work till I’m 62 to collect social security and Medicare. If they let me retire with those things at 62 I will I don’t care how much I lose for retiring early.

BUT. If I would have went to work at ford when I graduated highschool at 17, I’d already be getting a 30 year pension 2 years ago. At the age of 47. So even though I’m balling and have no debt, I’m still going to have to work 15 more years than if I would have just taken that union job at ford.

plus i wouldn’t have spent that $20,000 on a bachelors degree.

If I only made $100k per yr I would be depressed.

Why should people who make $60k and have $100,000 in student loan debt vote republican? You probably like that th3 ceo makes 300x what they make right?

But you, if you really make more than me, you should vote republican. But if you don’t you shouldn’t.

Arent you that fat foreign guy? Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else?

I vote Republican because Democrats tell me that men may identity as women

Ha! I was just telling a guy name unkotare how they use gay to con poor and middle class Americans into voting republican. Without these wedge issues like guns, racism, abortion these people would have no business voting republican. Republicans are not pro labor. Period.

How so?

Because republicans are against employees unionizing. Their way brought wages down.

Because republicans won’t go after illegal employers. So they arent really trying to kick illegals out. A wall. Ha!

Because trumps fixes to nafta and trade with ch8na did nothing to help labor. And only american companies a little. Only enough for trump to claim a victory.

Youre being conned

Unions are stupid. Republicans are for lower taxes and fewer regulations. You’re uneducated by your own admission so please stop trying to sound smart.

Republicans are against paying labor more too. Driving wages down. How? By sending jobs overseas and hiring illegal workers

Not true at all. Fewer regulations equates to more business openings and expansion and more jobs. Trump brought jobs back and halted corporate inversions.

More jobs but lower paying.

But I’m not so against lower wages anymore. As long as it’s not my wages. You and I make more than the average american with two kids. I’m not worrying about them anymore

but remember you admitted that if you made what they all make, your be depressed. So why should they vote like you vote when you’re for lower wages for them?

lower pay?? how so?

Look at companies like Toyota and Honda Compared to ford and gm. More temps than full time employees.

That’s just one example.

Do you even have to ask?

Republicans applaud companies who’s CEOs make the most but employees make the least.

PROOF PLEASE--you just babbled..how about some facts and figures--FOR ONCE!!!!

Look it up

We have looked it up. There is no example of lower pay.

You show me the example of lower pay. You show me the wielder that in 1970 was earning $50/hour, and today is earning $10/hour.

There is no such example anywhere. None. Zero. Even adjusted for inflation, no such example.

We have looked it up. You are wrong. This is why we are asking you to look it up, so you can educate yourself on your false beliefs.

Ford scores higher in 6 areas dummy. Overall rating, career opportunpities, work life balance, senior management, culture and values and % recommended to a friend.

Big three workers make $27 hr Toyota $25.

Keep in mind Toyota only pays what they pay because if they didn’t their employees would unionize.

Engineers at ford make $37 hr Toyota engineers make $32

Ford has 3400 temp workers. I’m looking at an article about Toyota extending plant shutdown and will stop paying 5000 temps.

What does any of that have to do with anything?

You made the claim that people are paid less today, than they were yesterday.

Are you saying that Toyota Engineers were making $37/hour and now they are making $32 an hour?

I'm not asking you if some employees are choosing to work for a company that pays less money.

Which employee was making $37/hour yesterday, or last year, or last decade, and today is making $32/hour?

Unless they suck. I've known some engineers, that honestly were not worth $15/hour.

How much was Toyota paying engineers 30 years ago? Is more... or less... than how much engineers are paid today?

And honestly, Toyota Engineers are paid $32/hour? Oh my bleeding heart..... oh the horror....

You know that German automotive engineers in Germany right now, earn less than that?

Automotive Engineer Salary in Germany in 2024 | PayScale

The average salary for an Automotive Engineer in Germany is €58,172 in 2024. Visit PayScale to research automotive engineer salaries by city, experience, skill, employer and more.

www.payscale.com

Evidence my friend. Evidence. You are complaining about better working conditions than other first world countries offer.

Engineers come here from Europe, and earn more working for Toyota.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Compare/Ford-Motor-Company-vs-Toyota-North-America-EI_IE263-E3544.htm

View attachment 389136
I do not even believe you honestly.

Figures about pay scales are horribly easy to mislead with.

No two engineers are identical by any stretch. One engineer can have 10 years of experience, while another might have only 3 years of experience. Another engineer might have 15 years of experience, but in a field where there are dozens of engineers, while another engineer with only 5 years of experience might specialize in a field that few others do.

Just saying "well this group of engineers collectively is paid less or more than another group" is just ridiculous. You don't know what experience they have, what they specialize in, or anything.

They are not significantly paid less than people at Ford. If they were, no one would work there.

Overall, wages have gone up.... PERIOD. They have gone up, and what you posted doesn't contradict that.

We have the highest wages, and then highest standard of living in the world, and people need to be less spoiled, less complaining, and more grateful for what we have.

Was all this true on Obama's watch or only after Trump got into office?

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.

I'm talking about these people: the median weekly earnings are $933, or about $48,516 per year.

Who are these people? Do you know any?

Medium income is $47,000 a year. That’s what I imagine most Americans are working with.

And even though it’s probably tough to raise a family on that, $47,000 isn’t that bad. I don’t think the masses should all be making more than that.

The more I talk to you guys the more I realize things probably aren’t as bad as I think. But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table. And I don’t want government cutting my social security no matter how much I make. I’m going to want that extra $300 a month when I’m retired. Cutting my social security 20% would not be cool and that’s what republicans want to do.

And before you deny it, don’t lie. Like yesterday trump said he doesn’t want to do away with pre existing conditions but we know that’s a fucking lie

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

I hope he does away with the ban on pre-existing conditions.

Do you want affordable health insurance for 90% of the country or not? Yes or no, dude. Because you can't get affordable health care, while being forced to pay for people who don't buy health insurance.

I was working at a place some years bad, and there was a guy that canceled his insurance, and said he'll just get insurance if he gets sick.

See, this is another case, where because you can't see how it directly effects you, then you are fine with it.

But if your health insurance payment, had it itemized to show how much you are paying for your own policy, and how many paying for people who intentionally did not buy insurance, and then got sick, and now you have to cover the cost of their care.....

You yourself would be SCREAMING to have pre-existing condition clauses.

But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table.

Every company that has allowed labor to have a seat at the table, has imploded in on itself. Do you like employees losing their jobs?

Ask the people of Toyota or Honda, if they wish they had the seat at the table like those of Chrysler before they became a subsidiary of Fiat.

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

The irony of that statement is that right-wingers routinely provide vastly more help than left-wingers, throughout the entire world, and especially in the US.

We routinely do far more to actually help people, than the left-wing. Left-wingers only demand that OTHER PEOPLE help the poor or sick.

I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!

So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?

So I'm a firm believer that we should have insurance decoupled from employment. Unfortunately, the government through bad left-wing policy has actually made insurance more tied to the employer.

That said, even then... when you get a new job, you get insurance, and then you will be covered.

There's a weird concept that has been popularized by ignorant people, that pre-existing conditions, are forever. That is not true. Pre-existing conditions usually last 6 months to a year.

Meaning, you can't get insurance, and have it cover your diabetes instantly. But after a period of time, six months to a year, then it is covered like everything else.

However, if you really think about it, diabetes should not be covered. It's not insurance if it did.

Let's read the definition of insurance:

"Insurance is a means of protection from financial loss. It is a form of risk management, primarily used to hedge against the risk of a contingent or uncertain loss. "

Does auto insurance cover damage for a car used in a demolition derby?

No. Why? Why not? Why can't I get an insurance policy to cover my demolition derby car?

"Insurance is a means of protection from financial loss. It is a form of risk management, primarily used to hedge against the risk of a contingent or uncertain loss. "

Do you see the problem? UNCERTAIN loss.

Is there anything "uncertain" about a chronic diabetic? Is there some ambiguity about whether or not they'll need insulin? No.

So that isn't insurance. That is simply someone wanting someone else to cover their bill.

That's like saying I want insurance against my cable TV bill. There is no "uncertain" loss from your cable TV bill.

So how do we deal with this? Deregulation, and charity.

Again, I'm all for charities that help people who need insulin. Plus with deregulation, prices will fall.

We've seen this with Lasic Eye which had dramatically dropped in price. And we know regulation by government is the cause of high prices, like we saw with EpiPen.

So that is a valid solution.

 

[Andylusion]

....

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.
......

There is no "class warfare" no matter how badly the democrats want it.

Your shrink is doing a piss-poor job. You can't go half a day without gassing on about how 'rich' you think you are. You are pathologically shallow and insecure. What a poor fucking excuse for a human being.

If the rich lobby politicians to cut social programs so they can get tax cuts, that’s class warfare stupid boy.

If the rich in the 80s start hiring illegals to avoid paying American wages, that’s class warfare you idiot. This has cost the middle class billions and profited corporations billions every year fool.

If they send our highest paying manufacturing jobs to mexico, that’s class warfare dummy.

If they break unions, that’s class warfare

And now it’s all secretive because of citizens united.

So how did you start making good money, you are not that different than others, you were not union, so, I’m not seeing class warfare. Your brother according to you is doing well.

In America if you work hard and find a niche, you make money, your excuses are just that, excuses.

Ever been in sales? Well I’ve worked for many shitty companies. They’re business model is to hire 90% more salespeople than you think you need. Pay them 100% commission and watch all 100% of them work their asses for 8 months and watch 90% of them fail. Some right away, some in a month, some in 2, 3, 4-7 months and by month 8 you have the 10% you’re going to keep.

Then repeat and do it every 6 months. The 10% don’t mind because when the new people quit they get their accounts.

I made it to the 10%. I didn’t like this business model. But when people are looking for jobs and there aren’t any they’ll take the chance. I took this job right out of college during hw Bush’s shitty 4 years. I went back after the gw Great Recession and didn’t make it. But it led to this job luckily.

Also keep in mind it doesn’t look good if you bounce from job to job but in sales it’s almost unavoidable if you want to try to make more money and if you don’t succeed and get let go that looks bad on a job interview. So it’s easy to say just go find another better job. Good luck with that.

Ive seen first hand how sales got fucked with in the past 20 plus years. Just because I finally found a good job doesn’t mean I forgot.

Used to be in sales, I knew I was better and created my own business.

I tried starting my own business. It’s not for me. I commend you unless you had someone help you financially then I would commend them.

I find I’m happiest working for someone else. Salary, vacation days, commissions, 401k, sick day, they pay for rent and all my supplies. Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem.

And it would have been great owning my own business if I had 3 jobs a day. The toughest days were days where I didn’t have any jobs so I would prospect for new business. So I was working and not making anything. At my company Now when I’m prospecting, I’m being paid.

See, to me that is a weird statement. You are acting like, money is all that is required to make a successful business, and the guy running the place isn't worth commending. And the real irony is that even in your own post, you indicate the opposite.

I find I’m happiest working for someone else. Salary, vacation days, commissions, 401k, sick day, they pay for rent and all my supplies. Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem.

Do you not see the irony there? You enjoy all those things, which people who start their own business don't have. But you would rather commend the financial backers, than the person doing the work.

My last long term job, the CEO of the company, who owned the company, was on a vacation. A customer called in with a critical problem with our products. The CEO flew back from vacation on Wednesday morning, worked all day Wednesday and Thursday, and flew back to vacation, Thursday night, only to come back Saturday.

And he deserves no commendation?

When you were an employee, and went on vacation, did you get called back to fix problems? Likely no. I know I've never been called on vacation.

Same guy, the following year, we had a huge deployment of products, for outdoor use. A week after deployment, the customer sent back pictures that the units had filled with water after a rain storm.

The CEO, the VP, the head of sales, and the head of engineering, all rented a van, drove down to Florida, and worked all night long for two days, repairing the units.

And he deserves no commendation?

The average CEO works between 50 and 60 hours a week. And when things go wrong, they don't contact the employee on the production line, they contact the people in charge.

You like having no responsibilities "Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem." but then don't want to give credit to the people who do own the responsibilities.

So I was working and not making anything. At my company Now when I’m prospecting, I’m being paid.

Again, that's our point. The reason why Bezo today has billions, is because when the company started, and there was no business.... Bezo earned nothing.

The employees still collected a check, while Bezo just lost money, paying people to try and find work.

That's why as the business improves, now he's a multi-billionaire.

1-800-GOT-JUNK, when Scudamore was building his junk removal service, when there was no work, he was driving around hunting for trash that needed removed, driving up and down roads looking for work earning nothing.

Do you see the issue? When left-wingers say "Why does the CEO earn 20X the wages of the employee" this is why. He owns the risk. He built the place, or keeps it running. He owns the responsibility. He takes on the tough choices.

The employees sit back, collect a check, and say "Not my problem" right? Why should employees be paid more, when they own the responsibility of nothing? Why should they be paid more when they invested none of their own money in the business?

This is why I laugh at Progs. They have no concept of how hard it is to get a Biz up and running. They think that when you open the doors money just automatically starts flowing in.

And it just cracked me up, that he's complaining about the rich, and then spins right around and says "I tried it, and it was hard, so I didn't do it".... and you are sitting there thinking.... huh? Did you not just outline why the rich make the money then?

 

[JustAGuy1]

Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.

Manhattan rental market plunges, leaving 15,000 empty apartments in August

Hopes for a rebound in the fall or the end of 2020 look increasingly unlikely. Although rental prices have come down, the discounts are not steep enough yet to lure new renters back to the city.

www.cnbc.com

It is way too expensive to live in nyc. People who worked in nyc but now work from home have moved to places where their salaries go a lot further.

Shuli on the Howard stern show moved to Alabama. With what he makes he’s rich in Alabama. If you can work from home why live in a city where $100,000 a year is not a lot?

And whose fault is that?

You jack up taxes, jack up regulations, jack up housing policy, jack up the police so that crime is everywhere, which increases costs on the city.... and then you say "It's too expensive to live there" as if that just fell out of the sky randomly.

No it didn't. Bad policies caused this.

And by the way, they could have had thousands of well paying jobs in NYC when Amazon built an HQ there, but AOC drove them out. Brilliant.

Hey, if you want to live or do business in ny you have to pay. Otherwise go to Alabama. Use their ports and tear up their roads.

Well that's kind of my point. They are not, and they leaving.

People are leaving NYC. That's the point. This is true everywhere.

When France implemented their wealth tax... they said the same thing. "Hey, if you want to live and do business in France, you have to pay!"

and you know what happened????

Wealth tax is forcing 12,000 millionaires PER YEAR out of France

Edouard Philippe defended President Emmanuel Macrons' new tax break for the wealthiest, saying it is needed stem the increasing flow of the richest leaving France.

www.dailymail.co.uk

They left! They were packing up their wealthy, their businesses, and their families, and leaving.

Famously in Jamaica, when PM Manly passed all his socialist crap.... he said openly "There are six flights a day to Miami"... and people started taking the flights to Miami. They left.

You can't hurt the rich. Only yourself. It was poor people of Jamaica that end up dealing with the joblessness and high crime.

The rich left.

Same in NYC. The rich are leaving. The poor are stuck jobless, and victimized by the criminals.

So, yes.... they will leave.

Then don’t expect America to be great again. Not if you are middle class. The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.

If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.

I actually don't believe that America was ever not great. At least thus far. America has never ceased being great.

The only people who think that America has declined, are the fools who have never lived, or been elsewhere, or know people who live elsewhere.

I do. I've been to Europe. I know people who live in Europe right now. And if you think America is not better than Europe, or the rest of the world, you are crazy. You don't know what you are talking about.

People in Europe live lower standards of living, universally. Smaller houses, smaller cars, smaller appliances, less spending money, less entertainment.

There is no possible way to measure the standards of living in the rest of the world, and compare to the US, and not have the US be better.

Why do think we have millions of people trying to get into this country? It's one of the most baffling aspects of Left-wing contradictions, that you want open borders to let people freely come into the country, and at the same time claim the country is declining and everything is terrible, and America is racists and evil.

Those are mutually exclusive positions. People don't risk their lives, to get into places that are terrible.

The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

No, I don't buy that. You show me one person who walked the exact same path as their parents, and is worse off.

I'm not making the same money as my parents, but that's because I am not in the same career as my parents.

I have relatives, where their parents were wielders. Their son, became a wielder too. Their son is make more money than his parents did, when they were his age.

I know engineers, and they make more money in engineering than their parents who were engineers.

And as far as the standard of living.... no you are still crazy.

My standard of living today, is better than my parents when they were my age. By quite a bit too.

My house is bigger, than the house they had at my age. I have had central air conditioning since I was in college, in 1999. My parents didn't have air conditioning until they were in their late 50s. Microwaves, internet, computers, instapots. My parents didn't have cable TV until they were in their late 50s, and in fact, didn't even own a TV until they were in their late 40s.

I've had all of that, and smart phones, and GPS driving directions, and on and on and on.

We today, are miles and miles beyond where are parents were at the same age. You are crazy if you think otherwise. Absolutely crazy.

The poorest WORKING people today, have a higher standard of living, than the middle class of the 1970s. By a MASSIVE margin.

Now if you are living off welfare and unemployment, and not working consistently full time, then yeah, they are falling way behind, and need to get off their butts, and work for what they want.

But the poorest working people putting in full days work every day.... no they are way beyond where the middle class was in the 1970s, or even 1980s.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.
If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.

Social Security was going broke before Trump was even running for office.

You are fool if your retirement plan is to depend on Social Security.

Before any of this Covid nonsense happened, SS was going broke. Before Trump was ever elected, SS paid out so little, that you were basically going to live in poverty until you die, if Social Security was your retirement plan.

Anyone who plans to retire on Social Security is an idiot. You need to be saving for your own retirement out of your own income, like everyone else should be doing.

Social Security is the most poverty creating program in US history. Don't be stupid. Save for retirement.

We don’t have to be worse than Europe. Maybe we’re still better but not as much as we were before Reagan bush and trump.

And when I say we’re not better than we were before I mean the middle class. The rich are doing great.

Half of me is working class and half is investor class. As a worker I disagree with you. As an investor I partially agree with you. And when I agree I certainly don’t agree on your suggested remedies.

Again, factually speaking, we are way better off after the 1980s, than before.

If you telling me that the working class, TODAY.... is worse off, than the working class of the 1970s.... or before.... you are crazy. You are factually incorrect sir.

We are way way way better off than the people in the 1970s or before.

The middle class TODAY... is better off than the middle class of the 1970s.

And yes, investors are better off too. You know who is an investor? Likely.... 70% of the population?

55% of people have investments in the stock market.
65% have property investments.
15% have pensions, which are in fact investments, typically in the stock market.

And there are millions with annuities, and those are typically invested in stocks too.

And by the way, there is a connection between investment and labor. Most jobs wouldn't exist without investment.

So while someone might claim "The investor class is doing well, but the working class is not".... really? Because without the investments, hundreds of millions of jobs wouldn't exist, and those workers would be far worse off.

Honestly I grew up in the 70s and 80s in metro Detroit. Back then a guy could graduate high school and go find a job that would support a family of 5. One income. One bread winner.

Today to do as well you have to go to college and how much does that cost? So blue collar are not better off today and back in my day college was $5000 a year. I worked in the summer and saved most of my tuition. Maybe my dad had to chip in $1000 a year so I didn’t need student loans.

And honestly, for years I had a college degree but wasn’t doing as well as my dad did. I am now but that is common now especially for millennials. First generation who won’t do better than their parents.

I may make more than my dad ever did but am I better off? Fuck no. My dad has great retirement benefits through ford. And a pension. He took the buy out.

Oh yea and me. I make $100k a year give or take now. Have for the past 5 years. I’m 49. So let’s say I’ve got to at least work till I’m 62 to collect social security and Medicare. If they let me retire with those things at 62 I will I don’t care how much I lose for retiring early.

BUT. If I would have went to work at ford when I graduated highschool at 17, I’d already be getting a 30 year pension 2 years ago. At the age of 47. So even though I’m balling and have no debt, I’m still going to have to work 15 more years than if I would have just taken that union job at ford.

plus i wouldn’t have spent that $20,000 on a bachelors degree.

If I only made $100k per yr I would be depressed.

Why should people who make $60k and have $100,000 in student loan debt vote republican? You probably like that th3 ceo makes 300x what they make right?

But you, if you really make more than me, you should vote republican. But if you don’t you shouldn’t.

Arent you that fat foreign guy? Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else?

I vote Republican because Democrats tell me that men may identity as women

Ha! I was just telling a guy name unkotare how they use gay to con poor and middle class Americans into voting republican. Without these wedge issues like guns, racism, abortion these people would have no business voting republican. Republicans are not pro labor. Period.

How so?

Because republicans are against employees unionizing. Their way brought wages down.

Because republicans won’t go after illegal employers. So they arent really trying to kick illegals out. A wall. Ha!

Because trumps fixes to nafta and trade with ch8na did nothing to help labor. And only american companies a little. Only enough for trump to claim a victory.

Youre being conned

Unions are stupid. Republicans are for lower taxes and fewer regulations. You’re uneducated by your own admission so please stop trying to sound smart.

Republicans are against paying labor more too. Driving wages down. How? By sending jobs overseas and hiring illegal workers

Not true at all. Fewer regulations equates to more business openings and expansion and more jobs. Trump brought jobs back and halted corporate inversions.

More jobs but lower paying.

But I’m not so against lower wages anymore. As long as it’s not my wages. You and I make more than the average american with two kids. I’m not worrying about them anymore

but remember you admitted that if you made what they all make, your be depressed. So why should they vote like you vote when you’re for lower wages for them?

lower pay?? how so?

Look at companies like Toyota and Honda Compared to ford and gm. More temps than full time employees.

That’s just one example.

Do you even have to ask?

Republicans applaud companies who’s CEOs make the most but employees make the least.

PROOF PLEASE--you just babbled..how about some facts and figures--FOR ONCE!!!!

Look it up

We have looked it up. There is no example of lower pay.

You show me the example of lower pay. You show me the wielder that in 1970 was earning $50/hour, and today is earning $10/hour.

There is no such example anywhere. None. Zero. Even adjusted for inflation, no such example.

We have looked it up. You are wrong. This is why we are asking you to look it up, so you can educate yourself on your false beliefs.

Ford scores higher in 6 areas dummy. Overall rating, career opportunpities, work life balance, senior management, culture and values and % recommended to a friend.

Big three workers make $27 hr Toyota $25.

Keep in mind Toyota only pays what they pay because if they didn’t their employees would unionize.

Engineers at ford make $37 hr Toyota engineers make $32

Ford has 3400 temp workers. I’m looking at an article about Toyota extending plant shutdown and will stop paying 5000 temps.

What does any of that have to do with anything?

You made the claim that people are paid less today, than they were yesterday.

Are you saying that Toyota Engineers were making $37/hour and now they are making $32 an hour?

I'm not asking you if some employees are choosing to work for a company that pays less money.

Which employee was making $37/hour yesterday, or last year, or last decade, and today is making $32/hour?

Unless they suck. I've known some engineers, that honestly were not worth $15/hour.

How much was Toyota paying engineers 30 years ago? Is more... or less... than how much engineers are paid today?

And honestly, Toyota Engineers are paid $32/hour? Oh my bleeding heart..... oh the horror....

You know that German automotive engineers in Germany right now, earn less than that?

Automotive Engineer Salary in Germany in 2024 | PayScale

The average salary for an Automotive Engineer in Germany is €58,172 in 2024. Visit PayScale to research automotive engineer salaries by city, experience, skill, employer and more.

www.payscale.com

Evidence my friend. Evidence. You are complaining about better working conditions than other first world countries offer.

Engineers come here from Europe, and earn more working for Toyota.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Compare/Ford-Motor-Company-vs-Toyota-North-America-EI_IE263-E3544.htm

View attachment 389136
I do not even believe you honestly.

Figures about pay scales are horribly easy to mislead with.

No two engineers are identical by any stretch. One engineer can have 10 years of experience, while another might have only 3 years of experience. Another engineer might have 15 years of experience, but in a field where there are dozens of engineers, while another engineer with only 5 years of experience might specialize in a field that few others do.

Just saying "well this group of engineers collectively is paid less or more than another group" is just ridiculous. You don't know what experience they have, what they specialize in, or anything.

They are not significantly paid less than people at Ford. If they were, no one would work there.

Overall, wages have gone up.... PERIOD. They have gone up, and what you posted doesn't contradict that.

We have the highest wages, and then highest standard of living in the world, and people need to be less spoiled, less complaining, and more grateful for what we have.

Was all this true on Obama's watch or only after Trump got into office?

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.

I'm talking about these people: the median weekly earnings are $933, or about $48,516 per year.

Who are these people? Do you know any?

Medium income is $47,000 a year. That’s what I imagine most Americans are working with.

And even though it’s probably tough to raise a family on that, $47,000 isn’t that bad. I don’t think the masses should all be making more than that.

The more I talk to you guys the more I realize things probably aren’t as bad as I think. But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table. And I don’t want government cutting my social security no matter how much I make. I’m going to want that extra $300 a month when I’m retired. Cutting my social security 20% would not be cool and that’s what republicans want to do.

And before you deny it, don’t lie. Like yesterday trump said he doesn’t want to do away with pre existing conditions but we know that’s a fucking lie

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

I hope he does away with the ban on pre-existing conditions.

Do you want affordable health insurance for 90% of the country or not? Yes or no, dude. Because you can't get affordable health care, while being forced to pay for people who don't buy health insurance.

I was working at a place some years bad, and there was a guy that canceled his insurance, and said he'll just get insurance if he gets sick.

See, this is another case, where because you can't see how it directly effects you, then you are fine with it.

But if your health insurance payment, had it itemized to show how much you are paying for your own policy, and how many paying for people who intentionally did not buy insurance, and then got sick, and now you have to cover the cost of their care.....

You yourself would be SCREAMING to have pre-existing condition clauses.

But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table.

Every company that has allowed labor to have a seat at the table, has imploded in on itself. Do you like employees losing their jobs?

Ask the people of Toyota or Honda, if they wish they had the seat at the table like those of Chrysler before they became a subsidiary of Fiat.

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

The irony of that statement is that right-wingers routinely provide vastly more help than left-wingers, throughout the entire world, and especially in the US.

We routinely do far more to actually help people, than the left-wing. Left-wingers only demand that OTHER PEOPLE help the poor or sick.

I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!

So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?

So I'm a firm believer that we should have insurance decoupled from employment. Unfortunately, the government through bad left-wing policy has actually made insurance more tied to the employer.

That said, even then... when you get a new job, you get insurance, and then you will be covered.

There's a weird concept that has been popularized by ignorant people, that pre-existing conditions, are forever. That is not true. Pre-existing conditions usually last 6 months to a year.

Meaning, you can't get insurance, and have it cover your diabetes instantly. But after a period of time, six months to a year, then it is covered like everything else.

However, if you really think about it, diabetes should not be covered. It's not insurance if it did.

Let's read the definition of insurance:

"Insurance is a means of protection from financial loss. It is a form of risk management, primarily used to hedge against the risk of a contingent or uncertain loss. "

Does auto insurance cover damage for a car used in a demolition derby?

No. Why? Why not? Why can't I get an insurance policy to cover my demolition derby car?

"Insurance is a means of protection from financial loss. It is a form of risk management, primarily used to hedge against the risk of a contingent or uncertain loss. "

Do you see the problem? UNCERTAIN loss.

Is there anything "uncertain" about a chronic diabetic? Is there some ambiguity about whether or not they'll need insulin? No.

So that isn't insurance. That is simply someone wanting someone else to cover their bill.

That's like saying I want insurance against my cable TV bill. There is no "uncertain" loss from your cable TV bill.

So how do we deal with this? Deregulation, and charity.

Again, I'm all for charities that help people who need insulin. Plus with deregulation, prices will fall.

We've seen this with Lasic Eye which had dramatically dropped in price. And we know regulation by government is the cause of high prices, like we saw with EpiPen.

So that is a valid solution.

" Again, I'm all for charities that help people who need insulin. Plus with deregulation, prices will fall "

Most insurance companies have now capped insulin costs at $25

 

[candycorn]

Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.

Manhattan rental market plunges, leaving 15,000 empty apartments in August

Hopes for a rebound in the fall or the end of 2020 look increasingly unlikely. Although rental prices have come down, the discounts are not steep enough yet to lure new renters back to the city.

www.cnbc.com

Some people in Manhattan can afford multiple houses. It's an unfamiliar concept for most red states....unless the houses have wheels.
When the city locks down, there is little reason to continue living there and paying rent on an apartment. Once it opens back up completely, the city will once again be the envy of every red state low-life.

You mistakenly think that most Red State residents want what New York City has, Candy. They don't. They like living where they do. You know what they don't like? When liberals from places like New York and California move to a Red State and set about trying to destroy their new homes like they did their old ones.

Sure they do. We need to enlighten them.

 

[JustAGuy1]

Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.

Manhattan rental market plunges, leaving 15,000 empty apartments in August

Hopes for a rebound in the fall or the end of 2020 look increasingly unlikely. Although rental prices have come down, the discounts are not steep enough yet to lure new renters back to the city.

www.cnbc.com

Some people in Manhattan can afford multiple houses. It's an unfamiliar concept for most red states....unless the houses have wheels.
When the city locks down, there is little reason to continue living there and paying rent on an apartment. Once it opens back up completely, the city will once again be the envy of every red state low-life.

You mistakenly think that most Red State residents want what New York City has, Candy. They don't. They like living where they do. You know what they don't like? When liberals from places like New York and California move to a Red State and set about trying to destroy their new homes like they did their old ones.

Sure they do. We need to enlighten them.

You aren't intelligent enough to "enlighten" anyone honey.

 

[candycorn]

Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.

Manhattan rental market plunges, leaving 15,000 empty apartments in August

Hopes for a rebound in the fall or the end of 2020 look increasingly unlikely. Although rental prices have come down, the discounts are not steep enough yet to lure new renters back to the city.

www.cnbc.com

Some people in Manhattan can afford multiple houses. It's an unfamiliar concept for most red states....unless the houses have wheels.
When the city locks down, there is little reason to continue living there and paying rent on an apartment. Once it opens back up completely, the city will once again be the envy of every red state low-life.

You mistakenly think that most Red State residents want what New York City has, Candy. They don't. They like living where they do. You know what they don't like? When liberals from places like New York and California move to a Red State and set about trying to destroy their new homes like they did their old ones.

Sure they do. We need to enlighten them.

You aren't intelligent enough to "enlighten" anyone honey.

Did you get your feelings hurt Cleetus?

 

[sealybobo]

Has the mayor figured out how to blame Trump yet ?

The number of empty rental apartments in Manhattan nearly tripled compared with last year, as more New Yorkers fled the city and prices declined.

There were more than 15,000 empty rental apartments in Manhattan in August, up from 5,600 a year ago, according to a report from Douglas Elliman and Miller Samuel. The inventory of empty units is the largest ever recorded since data started being collected 14 years ago, the report said.

Manhattan rental market plunges, leaving 15,000 empty apartments in August

Hopes for a rebound in the fall or the end of 2020 look increasingly unlikely. Although rental prices have come down, the discounts are not steep enough yet to lure new renters back to the city.

www.cnbc.com

It is way too expensive to live in nyc. People who worked in nyc but now work from home have moved to places where their salaries go a lot further.

Shuli on the Howard stern show moved to Alabama. With what he makes he’s rich in Alabama. If you can work from home why live in a city where $100,000 a year is not a lot?

And whose fault is that?

You jack up taxes, jack up regulations, jack up housing policy, jack up the police so that crime is everywhere, which increases costs on the city.... and then you say "It's too expensive to live there" as if that just fell out of the sky randomly.

No it didn't. Bad policies caused this.

And by the way, they could have had thousands of well paying jobs in NYC when Amazon built an HQ there, but AOC drove them out. Brilliant.

Hey, if you want to live or do business in ny you have to pay. Otherwise go to Alabama. Use their ports and tear up their roads.

Well that's kind of my point. They are not, and they leaving.

People are leaving NYC. That's the point. This is true everywhere.

When France implemented their wealth tax... they said the same thing. "Hey, if you want to live and do business in France, you have to pay!"

and you know what happened????

Wealth tax is forcing 12,000 millionaires PER YEAR out of France

Edouard Philippe defended President Emmanuel Macrons' new tax break for the wealthiest, saying it is needed stem the increasing flow of the richest leaving France.

www.dailymail.co.uk

They left! They were packing up their wealthy, their businesses, and their families, and leaving.

Famously in Jamaica, when PM Manly passed all his socialist crap.... he said openly "There are six flights a day to Miami"... and people started taking the flights to Miami. They left.

You can't hurt the rich. Only yourself. It was poor people of Jamaica that end up dealing with the joblessness and high crime.

The rich left.

Same in NYC. The rich are leaving. The poor are stuck jobless, and victimized by the criminals.

So, yes.... they will leave.

Then don’t expect America to be great again. Not if you are middle class. The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.

If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.

I actually don't believe that America was ever not great. At least thus far. America has never ceased being great.

The only people who think that America has declined, are the fools who have never lived, or been elsewhere, or know people who live elsewhere.

I do. I've been to Europe. I know people who live in Europe right now. And if you think America is not better than Europe, or the rest of the world, you are crazy. You don't know what you are talking about.

People in Europe live lower standards of living, universally. Smaller houses, smaller cars, smaller appliances, less spending money, less entertainment.

There is no possible way to measure the standards of living in the rest of the world, and compare to the US, and not have the US be better.

Why do think we have millions of people trying to get into this country? It's one of the most baffling aspects of Left-wing contradictions, that you want open borders to let people freely come into the country, and at the same time claim the country is declining and everything is terrible, and America is racists and evil.

Those are mutually exclusive positions. People don't risk their lives, to get into places that are terrible.

The middle class is struggling big time. Compared to our parents most of you are lower middle class actually.

No, I don't buy that. You show me one person who walked the exact same path as their parents, and is worse off.

I'm not making the same money as my parents, but that's because I am not in the same career as my parents.

I have relatives, where their parents were wielders. Their son, became a wielder too. Their son is make more money than his parents did, when they were his age.

I know engineers, and they make more money in engineering than their parents who were engineers.

And as far as the standard of living.... no you are still crazy.

My standard of living today, is better than my parents when they were my age. By quite a bit too.

My house is bigger, than the house they had at my age. I have had central air conditioning since I was in college, in 1999. My parents didn't have air conditioning until they were in their late 50s. Microwaves, internet, computers, instapots. My parents didn't have cable TV until they were in their late 50s, and in fact, didn't even own a TV until they were in their late 40s.

I've had all of that, and smart phones, and GPS driving directions, and on and on and on.

We today, are miles and miles beyond where are parents were at the same age. You are crazy if you think otherwise. Absolutely crazy.

The poorest WORKING people today, have a higher standard of living, than the middle class of the 1970s. By a MASSIVE margin.

Now if you are living off welfare and unemployment, and not working consistently full time, then yeah, they are falling way behind, and need to get off their butts, and work for what they want.

But the poorest working people putting in full days work every day.... no they are way beyond where the middle class was in the 1970s, or even 1980s.

The middle class is getting smaller. If you are securly in the middle class and doing well and you’re ok with a 20% cut to your social security, vote republican.
If you are going to need your social security, you’re a fool being a republican.

Social Security was going broke before Trump was even running for office.

You are fool if your retirement plan is to depend on Social Security.

Before any of this Covid nonsense happened, SS was going broke. Before Trump was ever elected, SS paid out so little, that you were basically going to live in poverty until you die, if Social Security was your retirement plan.

Anyone who plans to retire on Social Security is an idiot. You need to be saving for your own retirement out of your own income, like everyone else should be doing.

Social Security is the most poverty creating program in US history. Don't be stupid. Save for retirement.

We don’t have to be worse than Europe. Maybe we’re still better but not as much as we were before Reagan bush and trump.

And when I say we’re not better than we were before I mean the middle class. The rich are doing great.

Half of me is working class and half is investor class. As a worker I disagree with you. As an investor I partially agree with you. And when I agree I certainly don’t agree on your suggested remedies.

Again, factually speaking, we are way better off after the 1980s, than before.

If you telling me that the working class, TODAY.... is worse off, than the working class of the 1970s.... or before.... you are crazy. You are factually incorrect sir.

We are way way way better off than the people in the 1970s or before.

The middle class TODAY... is better off than the middle class of the 1970s.

And yes, investors are better off too. You know who is an investor? Likely.... 70% of the population?

55% of people have investments in the stock market.
65% have property investments.
15% have pensions, which are in fact investments, typically in the stock market.

And there are millions with annuities, and those are typically invested in stocks too.

And by the way, there is a connection between investment and labor. Most jobs wouldn't exist without investment.

So while someone might claim "The investor class is doing well, but the working class is not".... really? Because without the investments, hundreds of millions of jobs wouldn't exist, and those workers would be far worse off.

Honestly I grew up in the 70s and 80s in metro Detroit. Back then a guy could graduate high school and go find a job that would support a family of 5. One income. One bread winner.

Today to do as well you have to go to college and how much does that cost? So blue collar are not better off today and back in my day college was $5000 a year. I worked in the summer and saved most of my tuition. Maybe my dad had to chip in $1000 a year so I didn’t need student loans.

And honestly, for years I had a college degree but wasn’t doing as well as my dad did. I am now but that is common now especially for millennials. First generation who won’t do better than their parents.

I may make more than my dad ever did but am I better off? Fuck no. My dad has great retirement benefits through ford. And a pension. He took the buy out.

Oh yea and me. I make $100k a year give or take now. Have for the past 5 years. I’m 49. So let’s say I’ve got to at least work till I’m 62 to collect social security and Medicare. If they let me retire with those things at 62 I will I don’t care how much I lose for retiring early.

BUT. If I would have went to work at ford when I graduated highschool at 17, I’d already be getting a 30 year pension 2 years ago. At the age of 47. So even though I’m balling and have no debt, I’m still going to have to work 15 more years than if I would have just taken that union job at ford.

plus i wouldn’t have spent that $20,000 on a bachelors degree.

If I only made $100k per yr I would be depressed.

Why should people who make $60k and have $100,000 in student loan debt vote republican? You probably like that th3 ceo makes 300x what they make right?

But you, if you really make more than me, you should vote republican. But if you don’t you shouldn’t.

Arent you that fat foreign guy? Maybe I’m confusing you with someone else?

I vote Republican because Democrats tell me that men may identity as women

Ha! I was just telling a guy name unkotare how they use gay to con poor and middle class Americans into voting republican. Without these wedge issues like guns, racism, abortion these people would have no business voting republican. Republicans are not pro labor. Period.

How so?

Because republicans are against employees unionizing. Their way brought wages down.

Because republicans won’t go after illegal employers. So they arent really trying to kick illegals out. A wall. Ha!

Because trumps fixes to nafta and trade with ch8na did nothing to help labor. And only american companies a little. Only enough for trump to claim a victory.

Youre being conned

Unions are stupid. Republicans are for lower taxes and fewer regulations. You’re uneducated by your own admission so please stop trying to sound smart.

Republicans are against paying labor more too. Driving wages down. How? By sending jobs overseas and hiring illegal workers

Not true at all. Fewer regulations equates to more business openings and expansion and more jobs. Trump brought jobs back and halted corporate inversions.

More jobs but lower paying.

But I’m not so against lower wages anymore. As long as it’s not my wages. You and I make more than the average american with two kids. I’m not worrying about them anymore

but remember you admitted that if you made what they all make, your be depressed. So why should they vote like you vote when you’re for lower wages for them?

lower pay?? how so?

Look at companies like Toyota and Honda Compared to ford and gm. More temps than full time employees.

That’s just one example.

Do you even have to ask?

Republicans applaud companies who’s CEOs make the most but employees make the least.

PROOF PLEASE--you just babbled..how about some facts and figures--FOR ONCE!!!!

Look it up

We have looked it up. There is no example of lower pay.

You show me the example of lower pay. You show me the wielder that in 1970 was earning $50/hour, and today is earning $10/hour.

There is no such example anywhere. None. Zero. Even adjusted for inflation, no such example.

We have looked it up. You are wrong. This is why we are asking you to look it up, so you can educate yourself on your false beliefs.

Ford scores higher in 6 areas dummy. Overall rating, career opportunpities, work life balance, senior management, culture and values and % recommended to a friend.

Big three workers make $27 hr Toyota $25.

Keep in mind Toyota only pays what they pay because if they didn’t their employees would unionize.

Engineers at ford make $37 hr Toyota engineers make $32

Ford has 3400 temp workers. I’m looking at an article about Toyota extending plant shutdown and will stop paying 5000 temps.

What does any of that have to do with anything?

You made the claim that people are paid less today, than they were yesterday.

Are you saying that Toyota Engineers were making $37/hour and now they are making $32 an hour?

I'm not asking you if some employees are choosing to work for a company that pays less money.

Which employee was making $37/hour yesterday, or last year, or last decade, and today is making $32/hour?

Unless they suck. I've known some engineers, that honestly were not worth $15/hour.

How much was Toyota paying engineers 30 years ago? Is more... or less... than how much engineers are paid today?

And honestly, Toyota Engineers are paid $32/hour? Oh my bleeding heart..... oh the horror....

You know that German automotive engineers in Germany right now, earn less than that?

Automotive Engineer Salary in Germany in 2024 | PayScale

The average salary for an Automotive Engineer in Germany is €58,172 in 2024. Visit PayScale to research automotive engineer salaries by city, experience, skill, employer and more.

www.payscale.com

Evidence my friend. Evidence. You are complaining about better working conditions than other first world countries offer.

Engineers come here from Europe, and earn more working for Toyota.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Compare/Ford-Motor-Company-vs-Toyota-North-America-EI_IE263-E3544.htm

View attachment 389136
I do not even believe you honestly.

Figures about pay scales are horribly easy to mislead with.

No two engineers are identical by any stretch. One engineer can have 10 years of experience, while another might have only 3 years of experience. Another engineer might have 15 years of experience, but in a field where there are dozens of engineers, while another engineer with only 5 years of experience might specialize in a field that few others do.

Just saying "well this group of engineers collectively is paid less or more than another group" is just ridiculous. You don't know what experience they have, what they specialize in, or anything.

They are not significantly paid less than people at Ford. If they were, no one would work there.

Overall, wages have gone up.... PERIOD. They have gone up, and what you posted doesn't contradict that.

We have the highest wages, and then highest standard of living in the world, and people need to be less spoiled, less complaining, and more grateful for what we have.

Was all this true on Obama's watch or only after Trump got into office?

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.

I'm talking about these people: the median weekly earnings are $933, or about $48,516 per year.

Who are these people? Do you know any?

Medium income is $47,000 a year. That’s what I imagine most Americans are working with.

And even though it’s probably tough to raise a family on that, $47,000 isn’t that bad. I don’t think the masses should all be making more than that.

The more I talk to you guys the more I realize things probably aren’t as bad as I think. But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table. And I don’t want government cutting my social security no matter how much I make. I’m going to want that extra $300 a month when I’m retired. Cutting my social security 20% would not be cool and that’s what republicans want to do.

And before you deny it, don’t lie. Like yesterday trump said he doesn’t want to do away with pre existing conditions but we know that’s a fucking lie

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

I hope he does away with the ban on pre-existing conditions.

Do you want affordable health insurance for 90% of the country or not? Yes or no, dude. Because you can't get affordable health care, while being forced to pay for people who don't buy health insurance.

I was working at a place some years bad, and there was a guy that canceled his insurance, and said he'll just get insurance if he gets sick.

See, this is another case, where because you can't see how it directly effects you, then you are fine with it.

But if your health insurance payment, had it itemized to show how much you are paying for your own policy, and how many paying for people who intentionally did not buy insurance, and then got sick, and now you have to cover the cost of their care.....

You yourself would be SCREAMING to have pre-existing condition clauses.

But I don’t like how labor no longer has a seat at the table.

Every company that has allowed labor to have a seat at the table, has imploded in on itself. Do you like employees losing their jobs?

Ask the people of Toyota or Honda, if they wish they had the seat at the table like those of Chrysler before they became a subsidiary of Fiat.

In the end, you and I are doing well so fuck it right?

The irony of that statement is that right-wingers routinely provide vastly more help than left-wingers, throughout the entire world, and especially in the US.

We routinely do far more to actually help people, than the left-wing. Left-wingers only demand that OTHER PEOPLE help the poor or sick.

I love preexisting conditions. You are a deplorable.

Imagine not having to get auto or home insurance but if an accident or damage occurs you can get the insurance afterward and be covered. What a happy and great place!

So if you lose your job with insurance the next insurance company should not cover your diabetes? Sorry, it’s a pre existing condition.

Ar3 you kidding?

That is up to your employer and what they negotiate with that carrier. But yes, that carrier should not have an obligation to do so, however, they likely will because they are making millions off that employer and most of the people who sign up won't have such conditions.

So let me ask you this. I have a family of four and knock on wood all healthy. I should pay the same as some guy with a family of six, who smokes, has diabetes and has a wife who is constantly at the doctor and kids too as he has so many? How is that equitable to me?

Because knock on wood don’t work. But they should reward non smokers or healthy people. That’s a great idea.

 

[sealybobo]

....

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.
......

There is no "class warfare" no matter how badly the democrats want it.

Your shrink is doing a piss-poor job. You can't go half a day without gassing on about how 'rich' you think you are. You are pathologically shallow and insecure. What a poor fucking excuse for a human being.

If the rich lobby politicians to cut social programs so they can get tax cuts, that’s class warfare stupid boy.

If the rich in the 80s start hiring illegals to avoid paying American wages, that’s class warfare you idiot. This has cost the middle class billions and profited corporations billions every year fool.

If they send our highest paying manufacturing jobs to mexico, that’s class warfare dummy.

If they break unions, that’s class warfare

And now it’s all secretive because of citizens united.

So how did you start making good money, you are not that different than others, you were not union, so, I’m not seeing class warfare. Your brother according to you is doing well.

In America if you work hard and find a niche, you make money, your excuses are just that, excuses.

Ever been in sales? Well I’ve worked for many shitty companies. They’re business model is to hire 90% more salespeople than you think you need. Pay them 100% commission and watch all 100% of them work their asses for 8 months and watch 90% of them fail. Some right away, some in a month, some in 2, 3, 4-7 months and by month 8 you have the 10% you’re going to keep.

Then repeat and do it every 6 months. The 10% don’t mind because when the new people quit they get their accounts.

I made it to the 10%. I didn’t like this business model. But when people are looking for jobs and there aren’t any they’ll take the chance. I took this job right out of college during hw Bush’s shitty 4 years. I went back after the gw Great Recession and didn’t make it. But it led to this job luckily.

Also keep in mind it doesn’t look good if you bounce from job to job but in sales it’s almost unavoidable if you want to try to make more money and if you don’t succeed and get let go that looks bad on a job interview. So it’s easy to say just go find another better job. Good luck with that.

Ive seen first hand how sales got fucked with in the past 20 plus years. Just because I finally found a good job doesn’t mean I forgot.

Used to be in sales, I knew I was better and created my own business.

I tried starting my own business. It’s not for me. I commend you unless you had someone help you financially then I would commend them.

I find I’m happiest working for someone else. Salary, vacation days, commissions, 401k, sick day, they pay for rent and all my supplies. Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem.

And it would have been great owning my own business if I had 3 jobs a day. The toughest days were days where I didn’t have any jobs so I would prospect for new business. So I was working and not making anything. At my company Now when I’m prospecting, I’m being paid.

See, to me that is a weird statement. You are acting like, money is all that is required to make a successful business, and the guy running the place isn't worth commending. And the real irony is that even in your own post, you indicate the opposite.

I find I’m happiest working for someone else. Salary, vacation days, commissions, 401k, sick day, they pay for rent and all my supplies. Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem.

Do you not see the irony there? You enjoy all those things, which people who start their own business don't have. But you would rather commend the financial backers, than the person doing the work.

My last long term job, the CEO of the company, who owned the company, was on a vacation. A customer called in with a critical problem with our products. The CEO flew back from vacation on Wednesday morning, worked all day Wednesday and Thursday, and flew back to vacation, Thursday night, only to come back Saturday.

And he deserves no commendation?

When you were an employee, and went on vacation, did you get called back to fix problems? Likely no. I know I've never been called on vacation.

Same guy, the following year, we had a huge deployment of products, for outdoor use. A week after deployment, the customer sent back pictures that the units had filled with water after a rain storm.

The CEO, the VP, the head of sales, and the head of engineering, all rented a van, drove down to Florida, and worked all night long for two days, repairing the units.

And he deserves no commendation?

The average CEO works between 50 and 60 hours a week. And when things go wrong, they don't contact the employee on the production line, they contact the people in charge.

You like having no responsibilities "Printer is out of ink or paper? Not my problem." but then don't want to give credit to the people who do own the responsibilities.

So I was working and not making anything. At my company Now when I’m prospecting, I’m being paid.

Again, that's our point. The reason why Bezo today has billions, is because when the company started, and there was no business.... Bezo earned nothing.

The employees still collected a check, while Bezo just lost money, paying people to try and find work.

That's why as the business improves, now he's a multi-billionaire.

1-800-GOT-JUNK, when Scudamore was building his junk removal service, when there was no work, he was driving around hunting for trash that needed removed, driving up and down roads looking for work earning nothing.

Do you see the issue? When left-wingers say "Why does the CEO earn 20X the wages of the employee" this is why. He owns the risk. He built the place, or keeps it running. He owns the responsibility. He takes on the tough choices.

The employees sit back, collect a check, and say "Not my problem" right? Why should employees be paid more, when they own the responsibility of nothing? Why should they be paid more when they invested none of their own money in the business?

You win

 

[sealybobo]

....

I'm grateful. I make $100,000 a year.
......

There is no "class warfare" no matter how badly the democrats want it.

Your shrink is doing a piss-poor job. You can't go half a day without gassing on about how 'rich' you think you are. You are pathologically shallow and insecure. What a poor fucking excuse for a human being.

If the rich lobby politicians to cut social programs so they can get tax cuts, that’s class warfare stupid boy.

If the rich in the 80s start hiring illegals to avoid paying American wages, that’s class warfare you idiot. This has cost the middle class billions and profited corporations billions every year fool.

If they send our highest paying manufacturing jobs to mexico, that’s class warfare dummy.

If they break unions, that’s class warfare

And now it’s all secretive because of citizens united.

I don't know of a single person anywhere, lobbying to cut social programs to get a tax cut.

Moreover, that isn't class warfare.

*I* personally, with my $30,000 income, want to cut taxes, and cut social programs.

Further, social programs have done far more harm, than good. In fact, one of the primary reasons that I oppose social programs, is specifically because they harm people.

Charity, which is over whelmingly the rich and the conservatives, genuinely help people.

Social programs just keep people enslaved, and poor, and beholden to the government.

If they send our highest paying manufacturing jobs to mexico, that’s class warfare dummy.

That is also, not class warfare.

If you cannot make something profitable in the US, then you are going to make it elsewhere, or... not make it at all.

Things that are not profitable to be made... are simply not made.

If they break unions, that’s class warfare

That is most certainly not class warfare. Unions have done more to damage their members, than any group in human history.

You want to wreck the middle class? Unionize.

Besides, most unions have not been broken by government or corporations. Most unions have been destroyed by.... the Unions. The unions destroy their own jobs, and wreck themselves.

And by the way, this true the world over.

BBC World Service - Assignment, France – The Tale of Two Factories

In the town of Amiens tyre manufacturers Goodyear and Dunlop face very different fates

www.bbc.co.uk

2 Tire Factories With Different Trajectories Reveal Social Schisms in France (Published 2013)

One company is closing and the other has a promising future after workers agreed to concessions that many consider to be onerous.

www.nytimes.com

Two factories in France. Same town. Same people. Same product even. Both made tires for agricultural use.

Both were unionized. Both started losing money, and were on the verge of being closed down completely.

Instead, one factory the employees themselves, kicked out the Union, adopted cost cutting measures, slightly lower wages, more productivity.

The other factory refused to make any concessions, and was closed.

The non-union factory is doing well. The other is closed.

Unions are the number one destroyer of Unions.

You have convinced me. Wow. When’s the last time that’s happened on usmb?