Your Taxes, Your Beliefs

[Foxfyre]

Before a people can begin to narrow down the individual taxes, they must first come to a consensus on what the relationship of the people to the government is.

Is it the government's money?
Or is it the people's money?
Do the people exist to serve the government?
Or does the government exist to serve the people?
Does the government determine where it will spend the money and how much the people will pay?
Or do the people tell the government where it will spend the money and how much it will have?

 

[Two Thumbs]

yeah, and who would get to opt out of paying for the legion of Fed emps that would be needed to keep track of where your money goes?

cute idea, but really now.

The Federal Government has not operated for our benefit for a very long time now. It needs us to feed it, but our rights, our opportunities, our choices, our options are not of much interest to them except to the extent they can demand more taxes, a bigger budget, hire more people, and become ever more powerful, intrusive, and authoritarian.

I believe this is the last generation that will have any chance to reverse that trend and restore some semblance of the Republic that the Founders gave us. And it has to start with restricting the authority of the federal government and the amount of money the people will allow it to have.

that's not what the op is about

the op is about picking and choosing where your taxes go.

you will not pay more or less, but your money will go where you want it to go.

A cute but beyond reedickquelouse idea.

but to your point; ripping the Fed down to size needed to be done right after RR won the Cold war, it wasn't, so now we are sticking fingers in the damn.

It would require of man of great integrity to do what needed to be done. sadly the media would just tear him apart before he had a chance.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

There are two misplaced assumptions. *

The first is that your specific taxes pay for anything specifically. *If it makes you feel better, you can think of it as your taxes go entirely to the programs you like and the programs other people like are covered by their taxes.*

The more fundamental error is thinking that not having to pay taxes would yield more purchasing power, the ability to buy more stuff. *It doesn't. *If everybody's taxes go down by $100, the cost of goods goes up by $100. *That should be fairly obvious. The cost of all the stuff we buy is based on how much stuff is made and how much money is available to buy it. *Increasing the amount of money available isn't going to produce more stuff. *It takes more people to produce more stuff. (there is a temporary, short lived effect when they change. It goes away after a few cycles) *The only way you can buy more stuff is if you have more net income COMPARED to others.

If everyone can opt out of everything then everyone will opt out of everything. *

So no, on two counts, being able to opt out of taxes makes no sense.*

*The only way it makes sense is if you move Alaska and homestead. *Then you have the right because you are not involved in anything that depends on those taxes. *It's like you can opt out of car insurance, just don't drive.

If you decide you really want to opt out completely, please pin $250 to the inside of your jacket. *I see no reason everyone else should have to pay for your pine box.

But isn't that the thing really, there is no opting out life. *There is a joke in thermodynamics being a rephrasing of the three laws. *They are;

1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't get out of the game.

Speaking of misplaced assumptions.

Not one assumption except that you might actually have intelligence.

Now I know.

Sure. If mistaking head for ass is "knowing".

 

[snowdenisahero]

I like the idea, but it didn't work for the confederacy, so it definitely won't work for us now. The central Government wanted total control of the monetary system even then, and they got it.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I like the idea, but it didn't work for the confederacy, so it definitely won't work for us now.

What confederacy allowed individuals to decide what taxes they paid?

 

[Agit8r]

Somehow those who disagree with war--or even are morally opposed to particular wars--have never been exempt from paying for them. So these other crybabies need to get over themselves.

no one is opposed to war when their guy goes to war

look at dems calling reps warmongers; a simple count of wars and who was Pres will show anyone that 65% of the time we were 'sent' to war, it was a dem in charge

I was talking primarily about Quakers, Jehovah's Witnesses, other dogmatic pacifists. But, to say nothing of those opposed to unnecessary, illegal, or undeclared wars, who similarly don't have a Hyde Amendment to cater to their particular beliefs.

 

[freedombecki]

Our government is grotesquely large and centrally powered. Where would I begin on discussing cherry -picking taxes.

We pick people who look good, speak well, are generous, and seem nice. We're so shocked when someone who never goes to church acts like a hooligan when left to his or her own devices in Washington. But we voted on someone who looked good, spoke well, seemed generous, and seemed nice. We didn't look too closely that they played favorites, paid pr companies, double-dealt and cheated their way to wealth and gave money for show from the spoils of their cheating, never tipped services, hated anyone who told them to behave and stop acting like heathens.

They pass laws the greater part of their constituents loathe to get press accolades? Yep. Constituents get in financial trouble when government ignores them plus their taxes go from $1,300 to $8,000 in less than 10 years? The little people don't matter.

Who went to City Hall and opposed the funding of a 6-billion dollar mall that went belly-up three years later but tripled local taxes for a bankrupt enterprise?

Who went to the County Commissioner's public meeting to discuss the widening of perfectly good streets but ignored the hole at Main and 2nd that brought revenue into a Commissioner's auto muffler replacement shop?

Ever heard someone call Town Councilmen greedy pigs when they vote themselves unconscionable salaries or thought someone who did was a squeaky wheel?

How many people in the room memorized the Declaration of Independence points about being under another country's thumb? Let me refresh the board:

The Declaration of Independence: A Transcription
IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
​

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

Gives one something to reconsider as an American citizen, imho.

 

[TheSeventhTiger]

and they used 500 Million dollars of taxes to invest in solar panels despite the fact that they had no future clients? just like with the 50 or so billion invested in the Chevy Volt?

 

[Indofred]

The majority elected the government of the day so I don't believe it would be in the spirit of democracy to avoid taxes under normal conditions.

However - there are abnormal conditions that infringe law, the constitution (Actual or spirit if you're American) or just reasonable behaviour.
In my opinion - the Iraq war was illegal so should be exempted from tax liability. The cost should be placed on those who started the war and those who profited from it.
The NSA's little bit of fun with snooping on Americans should be exempted as their actions are possibly illegal and definitely against the spirit of American society.
Sending free weapons to any country or military action in any country you aren't at war with should be exempt as, if you contribute to the latter, you're funding actions that are illegal under international law.

I've missed a pile of thoughts but I'm sure you get the idea.

 

[Toro]

I would tax all women who refuse to have sex with me.

We would take care of the deficit in no time!

 

[itfitzme]

Speaking of misplaced assumptions.

Not one assumption except that you might actually have intelligence.

Now I know.

Sure. If mistaking head for ass is "knowing".

Your still not saying anything intelligent.

 

[waltky]

Granny just wants to know...

... when the gubmint gonna get around...

... to sendin' her dat 2nd stimulus check.

 

[itfitzme]

yeah, and who would get to opt out of paying for the legion of Fed emps that would be needed to keep track of where your money goes?

cute idea, but really now.

The Federal Government has not operated for our benefit for a very long time now. *It needs us to feed it, but our rights, our opportunities, our choices, our options are not of much interest to them except to the extent they can demand more taxes, a bigger budget, hire more people, and become ever more powerful, intrusive, and authoritarian.

I believe this is the last generation that will have any chance to reverse that trend and restore some semblance of the Republic that the Founders gave us. * And it has to start with restricting the authority of the federal government and the amount of money the people will allow it to have.

that's not what the op is about

the op is about picking and choosing where your taxes go.

you will not pay more or less, but your money will go where you want it to go.

A cute but beyond reedickquelouse idea.

but to your point; *ripping the Fed down to size needed to be done right after RR won the Cold war, it wasn't, so now we are sticking fingers in the damn.

It would require of man of great integrity to do what needed to be done. *sadly the media would just tear him apart before he had a chance.

Oh, I see. Like on the tax form, you pick the boxes as to which programs to fund. * You still pay the same in taxes, just which programs get more or less momey depends on whom checks which boxes.

Sounds like a budgeting nightmare. Maybe it the budget was like five years in advance. * What about long projects, like NASA, naval vessils, etc. *Some planning is way out.

 

[itfitzme]

I would tax all women who refuse to have sex with me.

We would take care of the deficit in no time!

That's just silly. So an IRS agent is assigned to be your wingman?

 

[TheSeventhTiger]

How about taxing everyone who says the "F Word" at least 12 times a day? like, $2.00 per curse?

 

[itfitzme]

Being able to opt out of taxation kind of defeats the purpose of taxation, but I'd certainly be more than ok with that. The only legitimate tax would be a voluntary tax, or, in other words, a donation.

Yeah, that didn't work so they replaced the Articles of Confederation with the Constitution.

You mean it didn't work for some people who wanted to use the
You government for their own advantage, and found it too difficult under the Articles. Also, taxes weren't voluntary under the Articles.

You can certainly write your history book however you want. I go with the standard,

""The absence of a tax base meant that there was no way to pay off state and national debts from the war years except by requesting money from the states, which seldom arrived."

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Yeah, that didn't work so they replaced the Articles of Confederation with the Constitution.

You mean it didn't work for some people who wanted to use the
You government for their own advantage, and found it too difficult under the Articles. Also, taxes weren't voluntary under the Articles.

You can certainly write your history book however you want. I go with the standard,

""The absence of a tax base meant that there was no way to pay off state and national debts from the war years except by requesting money from the states, which seldom arrived."

Requesting money from the states still doesn't make the taxes voluntary.

 

[S.J.]

That would just create the need for more IRS agents and Treasury Dept. employees. I'd rather see a lottery to fund social programs. You play the one that benefits the program you like.

 

[itfitzme]

You mean it didn't work for some people who wanted to use the*
You government for their own advantage, and found it too difficult under the Articles. Also, taxes weren't voluntary under the Articles.

You can certainly write your history book however you want. *I go with the standard,

""The absence of a tax base meant that there was no way to pay off state and national debts from the war years except by requesting money from the states, which seldom arrived."

Requesting money from the states still doesn't make the taxes voluntary.

They were voluntary.

 

[Obamanation]

If these liberal notions were really good ideas there would be enough private support for them to take off and fly without the gov't.

Not even the American left would volunteer to support the nonsense that comes out of the Dem party!