You sign a petition to curb gay rights. Should your name be public?

[Immanuel]

I think we will have to wait and see on that one.

By the way, I knew nothing of the proponents of gay marriage having websites that posted names of petition signers. Since, I would not have signed that petition, I can't say whether or not having that knowledge would have affected my signing it in the first place,..

Ignorance is no defense. The Ballot Initiative workers should've have disclosed what they knew. You were duped.

And as far as the public record aspect...ignorance of the law is never a viable defense.

What?

Did I ever say that I signed the petition?

How was I duped? I don't even live in the state of Washington. It would be a crime for me to have done so. Not only that, but as I have repeatedly stated in this thread, I WOULD not have signed it.

The issue is whether or not the courts should allow the posting of names of signers and it has not YET been decided.

... but I imagine that there are some who would not have signed it, which tells me that the idea behind the proponents is to influence voting and keeping referendums off the ballot, through the use of intimidation and threats of violence.

Influencing ballots and elections is the American way. There is a fine line between intimidation and influence. Too subjective an argument to hold water absent extenuating circumstances.

And your insistence on mentioning violence of the imagined kind is deceitful, deceptive and down right disgusting.

anectdotal evidence is not enough for the courts to weigh on in favor of keeping public records hidden away.

Are you afraid of having your tactics exposed?

There is a very real threat of violence involved hear. For you to be so dishonest as to deny that is somewhat disturbing. The same arguments used by KTN essentially --we're not planning any assaults on individuals -- was used by Operation Rescue and other Pro-life groups. How you can even insinuate that you think the gay rights activists are less willing to promote violence is beyond me.

Immie

 

[Cecilie1200]

It's interesting that you think one "gets to debate" by, apparently, getting in the face of someone who has not requested to debate with you. Who, by all appearances, simply wishes to communicate quietly with his government and representatives thereto.

Has it ever occurred to you to look for debates with people who want to debate you? Oh, wait, I forgot. Leftists avoid debate with opponents actually requesting them like the plague.

No, it's interesting that I went ti knowthyneighbor and there was nothing about harrassing people.

By petitioning the government one starts a public debate. The backers and signers of public petitions become public figures when they enter the publicc arena.

I really do wish you were capable of being as civil as most others have been here.

I have not gone into the face of anyone nor do I advocate others doing so...unless that person has made public appearancesm

To just shout slogans about leftists at me stifles debate.

goodbye

Oh, okay. Their website doesn't say, "We want to post these names and addresses so that you can go egg their houses and throw rocks through their windows and threaten their families", so clearly that must mean that no intimidation is intended.

One does not petition the government to start a public debate, Einstein. Read the First Amendment. One petitions the government for redress of grievances, ie. one petitions the governments because one wants the government to take action on something, NOT because one wants to discuss it with one's neighbors. I am not required to tell you or anyone else about my grievance, nor am I required to discuss or debate it with you in order to petition the government. And I sure the hell don't become a "public figure" merely by exercising my First Amendment rights.

I'm perfectly capable of being civil, but I require someone who deserves civility and respect, and you don't fit the bill.

One last thing before you go running off with your tail between your legs: If I needed any more proof that troglodytes like you are all about behind-the-scenes intimidation to stifle the debate you profess to want so badly, all I have to do is note that the first thing you did was throw out negative rep, NOT for "being rude" to you, but for giving a response to someone else entirely that you happen to disagree with. Oh, yeah. We should really all believe that you just want to post names and addresses because issues can't be debated without them.

I'll tell you what I tell everyone else like you: Please continue to think badly of me. Think even worse of me. Your agreement and approval are nothing an intelligent person would want.

You're dismissed. I don't waste time on fools, liars, or poltroons of your caliber.

 

[Cecilie1200]

no

your vote is private and a petition is a process in voting. privacy in voting is fundamental.

A petition is not a vote. And how would the petitions be validated if no information could be released.

I could say I have a petition with 4 million signatures calling for the execution of Bush. If it was confidential who could prove me wrong?

Confidential doesn't mean unvalidated. That's like saying your phone records aren't confidential because the people at the phone company can look at them, and they can be subpoenaed when necessary.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Why would anyone sign a petition they did not agree with?

Maybe because they believe important questions should be put before the voters for them to decide on one way or another.

 

[ba1614]

It's interesting that you think one "gets to debate" by, apparently, getting in the face of someone who has not requested to debate with you. Who, by all appearances, simply wishes to communicate quietly with his government and representatives thereto.

Has it ever occurred to you to look for debates with people who want to debate you? Oh, wait, I forgot. Leftists avoid debate with opponents actually requesting them like the plague.

No, it's interesting that I went ti knowthyneighbor and there was nothing about harrassing people.

By petitioning the government one starts a public debate. The backers and signers of public petitions become public figures when they enter the publicc arena.

I really do wish you were capable of being as civil as most others have been here.

I have not gone into the face of anyone nor do I advocate others doing so...unless that person has made public appearancesm

To just shout slogans about leftists at me stifles debate.

goodbye

Oh, okay. Their website doesn't say, "We want to post these names and addresses so that you can go egg their houses and throw rocks through their windows and threaten their families", so clearly that must mean that no intimidation is intended.

One does not petition the government to start a public debate, Einstein. Read the First Amendment. One petitions the government for redress of grievances, ie. one petitions the governments because one wants the government to take action on something, NOT because one wants to discuss it with one's neighbors. I am not required to tell you or anyone else about my grievance, nor am I required to discuss or debate it with you in order to petition the government. And I sure the hell don't become a "public figure" merely by exercising my First Amendment rights.

I'm perfectly capable of being civil, but I require someone who deserves civility and respect, and you don't fit the bill.

One last thing before you go running off with your tail between your legs: If I needed any more proof that troglodytes like you are all about behind-the-scenes intimidation to stifle the debate you profess to want so badly, all I have to do is note that the first thing you did was throw out negative rep, NOT for "being rude" to you, but for giving a response to someone else entirely that you happen to disagree with. Oh, yeah. We should really all believe that you just want to post names and addresses because issues can't be debated without them.

I'll tell you what I tell everyone else like you: Please continue to think badly of me. Think even worse of me. Your agreement and approval are nothing an intelligent person would want.

You're dismissed. I don't waste time on fools, liars, or poltroons of your caliber.

Good post Cecilie.

"troglodytes ", great word, and perfectly used, I had to google that one.

 

[uscitizen]

no

your vote is private and a petition is a process in voting. privacy in voting is fundamental.

A petition is not a vote. And how would the petitions be validated if no information could be released.

I could say I have a petition with 4 million signatures calling for the execution of Bush. If it was confidential who could prove me wrong?

Confidential doesn't mean unvalidated. That's like saying your phone records aren't confidential because the people at the phone company can look at them, and they can be subpoenaed when necessary.

Poor comparison.

 

[AllieBaba]

Your point didn't stand in the first place.

Race and sexual orientation are two completely different things.
No rights are being denied to gay people, except the right to call themselves a man and a woman, when they aren't.

You obviously are being obtuse and stuck in the past. When you care to join the rest of us here in the future, let me know!

There's nothing obvious about it, which is why you use absolutely no facts to back up your idiocy.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Oh, okay. Their website doesn't say, "We want to post these names and addresses so that you can go egg their houses and throw rocks through their windows and threaten their families", so clearly that must mean that no intimidation is intended.

One does not petition the government to start a public debate, Einstein. Read the First Amendment. One petitions the government for redress of grievances, ie. one petitions the governments because one wants the government to take action on something, NOT because one wants to discuss it with one's neighbors.

A petition is a public challenge. One cannot petition in a vacuum.

I am not required to tell you or anyone else about my grievance, nor am I required to discuss or debate it with you in order to petition the government. And I sure the hell don't become a "public figure" merely by exercising my First Amendment rights.

YOu are so required. That is why they are public documents. You cannot petition in secret. You can, but you cannot file a petition and you would would probably become a lobbyist, and then you would have to register...publicly.

Redresses are public actions.

perfectly capable of being civil, but I require someone who deserves civility and respect, and you don't fit the bill.

I require some one who can think beyond "one and one equals....uhm,...duh...errr...." that is what you sound like.

last thing before you go running off with your tail between your legs: If I needed any more proof that troglodytes like you are all about behind-the-scenes intimidation to stifle the debate you profess to want so badly, all I have to do is note that the first thing you did was throw out negative rep, NOT for "being rude" to you, but for giving a response to someone else entirely that you happen to disagree with. Oh, yeah. We should really all believe that you just want to post names and addresses because issues can't be debated without them.

I'll tell you what I tell everyone else like you: Please continue to think badly of me. Think even worse of me. Your agreement and approval are nothing an intelligent person would want.

You're dismissed. I don't waste time on fools, liars, or poltroons of your caliber.

I don't think of you badly. I don't think of you at all, until I see a post by you.

You're an undereducated, ignorant, imbecile lacking even the limited intelligence needed to grasp critical points in your own arguments, let alone the minor points in the arguments of others.

fuck off you twit

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

no

your vote is private and a petition is a process in voting. privacy in voting is fundamental.

A petition is not a vote. And how would the petitions be validated if no information could be released.

I could say I have a petition with 4 million signatures calling for the execution of Bush. If it was confidential who could prove me wrong?

Confidential doesn't mean unvalidated. That's like saying your phone records aren't confidential because the people at the phone company can look at them, and they can be subpoenaed when necessary.

Phone records are not public documents.

gawd, this twit cannot grasp the difference between a private and a public document.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Why would anyone sign a petition they did not agree with?

Maybe because they believe important questions should be put before the voters for them to decide on one way or another.

Would you sign a petition from the Communist Party USA?

US CITIZEN, I sign petitions only because like the ACLU I believe in freedom of speech. Disallowing a petition can happen. There is a process to be followed, but I would like all petitions to go forward,.

The imbecile otherwise known as Cecille the /Imbecillic, doesn't know not all petitions are voted on. Not all petitions are put to a vote. Ballot initiatives are put to a vote.

gawd, what a twit

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Good post Cecilie.

"troglodytes ", great word, and perfectly used, I had to google that one.

I've been calling people like Cecille The Imbecillic, Misanthropic, troglodytes with a dystopian world view, for years now.

Do I get a Brownie Point?

 

[Dr Grump]

Why would anyone sign a petition they did not agree with?

Maybe because they believe important questions should be put before the voters for them to decide on one way or another.

Would you sign a petition from the Communist Party USA?

US CITIZEN, I sign petitions only because like the ACLU I believe in freedom of speech. Disallowing a petition can happen. There is a process to be followed, but I would like all petitions to go forward,.

The imbecile otherwise known as Cecille the /Imbecillic, doesn't know not all petitions are voted on. Not all petitions are put to a vote. Ballot initiatives are put to a vote.

gawd, what a twit

Most intelligent people have it on ignore....

 

[Dr Grump]

[

"troglodytes ", great word, and perfectly used, I had to google that one.

You judge people by the company you keep. The fact you praise Cesspit and have not heard of the above word is of no surprise. Two Morons dancing to the beat of the same drum it seems....

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

here is a reason to have public lists...so the other side can be targeted!

In door-to-door canvassing, same-sex-marriage advocates are having those conversations out loud. Marc Solomon, who directs the marriage initiative for Equality California, told me, “It’s important for more people to see that we’re not some abstraction. We’re not necessarily the gays in West Hollywood or the Castro but the gays around the corner in Bakersfield or Fresno—maybe the couple you’ve seen walking their dog or watering their lawn. People change their minds on this issue with personal conversation, especially with people who are local.”
Since June, Equality California has been sending canvassers to communities that voted for Proposition 8, and reports that it is persuading nearly a quarter of the people its volunteers meet. The weekend before Thanksgiving, I went out with a team of canvassers in Orange County, an area that, with its history as a headquarters for the aerospace industry and as a destination for whites fleeing Los Angeles, tends to be conservative. Fifteen people, most of them in their twenties, met at a park in Huntington Beach. Younger gays and lesbians tend to be the most motivated on the marriage issue. As Patrick Egan, the N.Y.U. political scientist, says, they are “not as concerned about freedom from discrimination as they are about freedom to be like everyone else.” Egan calls their stance “assimilationist.”


Read more: Gay marriage, Perry v. Schwarzenegger, and the Supreme Court : The New Yorker

for canvassing...not violence as immie keeps fantasizing

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

[

"troglodytes ", great word, and perfectly used, I had to google that one.

You judge people by the company you keep. The fact you praise Cesspit and have not heard of the above word is of no surprise. Two Morons dancing to the beat of the same drum it seems....

really? look at me...I've used it numerous times right here at USMB. look at me!

 

[SFC Ollie]

here is a reason to have public lists...so the other side can be targeted!

In door-to-door canvassing, same-sex-marriage advocates are having those conversations out loud. Marc Solomon, who directs the marriage initiative for Equality California, told me, “It’s important for more people to see that we’re not some abstraction. We’re not necessarily the gays in West Hollywood or the Castro but the gays around the corner in Bakersfield or Fresno—maybe the couple you’ve seen walking their dog or watering their lawn. People change their minds on this issue with personal conversation, especially with people who are local.”
Since June, Equality California has been sending canvassers to communities that voted for Proposition 8, and reports that it is persuading nearly a quarter of the people its volunteers meet. The weekend before Thanksgiving, I went out with a team of canvassers in Orange County, an area that, with its history as a headquarters for the aerospace industry and as a destination for whites fleeing Los Angeles, tends to be conservative. Fifteen people, most of them in their twenties, met at a park in Huntington Beach. Younger gays and lesbians tend to be the most motivated on the marriage issue. As Patrick Egan, the N.Y.U. political scientist, says, they are “not as concerned about freedom from discrimination as they are about freedom to be like everyone else.” Egan calls their stance “assimilationist.”


Read more: Gay marriage, Perry v. Schwarzenegger, and the Supreme Court : The New Yorker

for canvassing...not violence as immie keeps fantasizing

Yeah sure, they only want to canvas. OK believe what you will. We'll just have to see what the Supreme court decides. My bet is that the liberals on the court will side with privacy.

But I could easily be wrong on this one. Though this is one time I think privacy should come into play. No one in the public sector needs the individual names they only need to know the validated number of names.

 

[rightwinger]

Petitions by their very purpose are subject to challenge. As such, they must be open public records

 

[CurveLight]

no

your vote is private and a petition is a process in voting. privacy in voting is fundamental.

A petition sig needs to be public for verification. You can't compare a petition sig to a Vote in terms of privacy.

 

[Immanuel]

no

your vote is private and a petition is a process in voting. privacy in voting is fundamental.

A petition sig needs to be public for verification. You can't compare a petition sig to a Vote in terms of privacy.

Isn't it true, though, that the person responsible for verifying the signature is the "Supervisor of Elections"? Not everyone can go in and demand to see who the people are that signed the petition or at least they didn't used to be able to, but evidently it has changed recently.

Which is why this is being challenged.

I fail to understand why it is so bad to challenge a law.

Hell, if it were not for the right to challenge laws (good or bad) then abortion would still be illegal. Then where would all the progressives be? I guess maybe they believe that only they have the right to challenge laws they don't like, no one else has that privilege?

The issue here is whether or not those names should be released and some people feel that those names should not be released. My personal opinion... which is open to change if someone could present a decent argument as to why it should... is that the names should not be released. However, I believe the courts should make that decision.

Immie

 

[CurveLight]

no

your vote is private and a petition is a process in voting. privacy in voting is fundamental.

A petition sig needs to be public for verification. You can't compare a petition sig to a Vote in terms of privacy.

Isn't it true, though, that the person responsible for verifying the signature is the "Supervisor of Elections"? Not everyone can go in and demand to see who the people are that signed the petition or at least they didn't used to be able to, but evidently it has changed recently.

Which is why this is being challenged.

I fail to understand why it is so bad to challenge a law.

Hell, if it were not for the right to challenge laws (good or bad) then abortion would still be illegal. Then where would all the progressives be? I guess maybe they believe that only they have the right to challenge laws they don't like, no one else has that privilege?

The issue here is whether or not those names should be released and some people feel that those names should not be released. My personal opinion... which is open to change if someone could present a decent argument as to why it should... is that the names should not be released. However, I believe the courts should make that decision.

Immie

Release the names for verification requests and if they get used for intimidation then jail the bastards.