You dropped a bomb on me, baby!

[Care4all]

As stated since this debate began. Obamatax is step one to a single payer government healt plan with no private insurance, doctors or pharmaceuticals companies.

Does Medicare and Medicaid follow the same rule?

Medicare and Medicaid patients only use PRIVATE doctors, and Private Hospitals, and Private Laboratories, etc I would presume this will also be the case with a future single payer health care plan for those under 65....if it ever got in to place?

as Far as the Health Insurance Industry, they will still be around...similar to Medicare, they will get in to the Supplemental Health Insurance policies more, and develop other areas of Business, they certainly would not just "give up", they would diversify more than they have already and give it their all to survive....if we ever went to a single payer plan.

Why do you think these outfits will be around if they can't make a profit?

Answer: they won't be.

In the soviet union when they made doctors economically equal to janitors, they got too many janitors and a shortage of doctors.

People will not work for less than what their work is worth. Businesses will go under if they cannot make a profit because there is no reason to struggle hard for no extra gain. It has been the case of man since time immemorial.

You more than likely have not worked for a corporation...I have, for 5 different ones...they will NOT just let themselves go belly up...they will find ways to cut expenses and be more efficient in what they do, and expand their business realm, before they would ever give up.

And as far as Doctors....they won't give up either....and there will always be humans that want to be doctors regardless of extreme profits being avail to them or not.

Our prices for doctors and labs and hospitals would not be as high as they are if the government had not been subsidizing it. the market would have given resistance to these higher medical fees and charges...this would have kept prices down....what the heck are the Doctors bitching about? they should be kissing government's feet at this point imho.

 

[Barb]

Why do you think these outfits will be around if they can't make a profit?

Answer: they won't be.

In the soviet union when they made doctors economically equal to janitors, they got too many janitors and a shortage of doctors.

People will not work for less than what their work is worth. Businesses will go under if they cannot make a profit because there is no reason to struggle hard for no extra gain. It has been the case of man since time immemorial.

Then why do these doctors go off to poor countries and give their medical expertise for free!?

False premise that ability begets charity. Because they have the time and money to do so, that is why they give.

If they were working stiffs here who were struggling financially, Doctors Without Borders could not exist. Wealth and a charitable heart allow charities like that to exist.

Cuban doctors: overlooked champions of the health and human resources crisis | Speaking of Medicine

I wonder if the Forum will discuss the potential exodus of a group of health workers who have played a substantial role in keeping weak health systems from falling apart— Cuban doctors.

Cuba’s medical assistance program, which has been running for almost 50 years, has been responsible for 1000s of doctors and paramedics assisting in needy regions of the world, particularly, Central America, The Caribbean, and Africa, through bilateral health contracts. In the 1990’s Cuba’s medical assistance program expanded so much that in 1999, the Latin American School of Medicine, [ELAM (Escuela Latinoamericana de Medicina)] opened, in which students from around the world could come to learn how to practice medicine in underserved communities while having their educational costs covered by Cuba—which, politics aside is an extraordinary act of international health care solidarity on the part of Cuba.

 

[Intense]

The Bomb Buried In Obamacare Explodes Today-Hallelujah! - Forbes

This is the true ‘bomb’ contained in Obamacare and the one item that will have more impact on the future of how medical care is paid for in this country than anything we’ve seen in quite some time. Indeed, it is this aspect of the law that represents the true ‘death panel’ found in Obamacare—but not one that is going to lead to the death of American consumers. Rather, the medical loss ratio will, ultimately, lead to the death of large parts of the private, for-profit health insurance industry.

Why? Because there is absolutely no way for-profit health insurers are going to be able to learn how to get by and still make a profit while being forced to spend at least 80 percent of their receipts providing their customers with the coverage for which they paid. If they could, we likely would never have seen the extraordinary efforts made by these companies to avoid paying benefits to their customers at the very moment they need it the most.

Today, that bomb goes off.

Today, the Department of Health & Human Services issues the rules of what insurer expenditures will—and will not—qualify as a medical expense for purposes of meeting the requirement.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17lkdqoLt44]The Gap Band - You Dropped A Bomb On Me - YouTube[/ame]

If we could just make the government adhere to the same rules they want to force on us.

People conveniently forget that the rules the Insurance Industry have played by all along, were established by Government in the first place.

 

[Care4all]

Why do you think these outfits will be around if they can't make a profit?

Answer: they won't be.

In the soviet union when they made doctors economically equal to janitors, they got too many janitors and a shortage of doctors.

People will not work for less than what their work is worth. Businesses will go under if they cannot make a profit because there is no reason to struggle hard for no extra gain. It has been the case of man since time immemorial.

Then why do these doctors go off to poor countries and give their medical expertise for free!?

False premise that ability begets charity. Because they have the time and money to do so, that is why they give.

If they were working stiffs here who were struggling financially, Doctors Without Borders could not exist. Wealth and a charitable heart allow charities like that to exist.

I know a Dentist who said he did Pro-bono work for the tax write off....

 

[Big Fitz]

he true reason on why Health Care Insurance and Healthcare costs have gone up, is because of government subsidies...they give you a tax break for buying health insurance, they pay for the health care of all seniors, they fund nearly 50% of the R & D costs, they give a tax break to businesses that buy your health care insurance plans....they pay for Medicaid to insure the poor....etc etc etc etc etc....

So why is it that Obamatax addresses effectively nothing of that, and pushes us to a single payer system that hides these issues deeper and deeper.

Why is an aspirin over the counter only a penny a pill while in the hospital it'd be a buck twenty a pill?

This whole 80-85% spent on actual care is a great idea, but how is that going to reduce the costs of health care by decreasing the profits of a company thereby making it more suceptible to financial collapse by financial strain over time. It's like the captain of a sinking ship saying shut down the pumps in all sections where there's no hole. The ship will go under, just not as quickly as it would if no pumps were going while if all of them were on, you'd stay afloat easily. It weakens the system, delaying and amplifying the unavoidable collapse.

So what about ending the subsidies? It's a great idea for two reasons. It allows taxes to decrease on us all and stops the government from picking winners and losers screwing with the market's proper operation. Here's the downside; it doesn't address the reason they demand subsidies. This is often caused by FDA trials and legal costs for getting and defending patents on every new drug created.

Removing subsidies reduces experimental drugs and focuses the companies on the drugs that will bring the highest profit for cheapest costs. Part of this is because they've gotten inflated profit for so long, they think that's the norm, not an abberation. For a while, drug innovation will go into the toilet, but over time, it will rebound naturally and stronger than before because it will be privately funded allowing greater opportunity for citizens to profit, not government to take away from them. It also doesn't protect companies with bad business models or prop up lousy ideas because they're politically popular. So it's a short term bad, long term good.

If you don't like the 'cut' that Insurance companies take because the profit margin is too high, do you have the same ire for software companies and hedge funds who profit upwards of 40-80%?

Costs and prices need to be exposed, not hidden. When the cost is open to the public, and everyone can comparison shop, prices must go down. Why were cable prices so high in the 80's and 90's? Geographical monopolies and no competition. Then satellite came in at an affordable price and prices dropped. Cable still has the geographical monopolies, but their prices dropped because people can get satellite from multiple companies. If hospitals, doctors and insurance were to lose their geographical monopolies (state mandates) and use open pricing like car insurance or gas stations, you would watch the prices drop there too. People always deal shop and it's only when they think they are forbidden or cannot see the real costs for service and product that they don't.

Do you think the emergency room as doctors office will change with Obamatax? hardly. M-TALA prevents them from turning anyone away who is in danger. Now, with emergency rooms being totally free thanks to Obamatax, they're going to be flooded. And yes, people are going to think it's totally free. They already do.

 

[Big Fitz]

Then why do these doctors go off to poor countries and give their medical expertise for free!?

False premise that ability begets charity. Because they have the time and money to do so, that is why they give.

If they were working stiffs here who were struggling financially, Doctors Without Borders could not exist. Wealth and a charitable heart allow charities like that to exist.

I know a Dentist who said he did Pro-bono work for the tax write off....

Gotta hate that tax code allowing a rich dentist (he makes more than 50k a year) to keep more of his own money by doing a good deed.

Of course, hes not worried about making rent, feeding the family, putting gas in his car, concerned over being able to pay for his OWN health insurance in case the kids get sick or his student loans.

But he does do charity as a tax dodge! How about we end THAT subsidy and watch these charities die out? That's a business move, not a charitable cause. He's being paid, in essence, by the government not stealing more of his money.

 

[Full-Auto]

The Bomb Buried In Obamacare Explodes Today-Hallelujah! - Forbes

This is the true ‘bomb’ contained in Obamacare and the one item that will have more impact on the future of how medical care is paid for in this country than anything we’ve seen in quite some time. Indeed, it is this aspect of the law that represents the true ‘death panel’ found in Obamacare—but not one that is going to lead to the death of American consumers. Rather, the medical loss ratio will, ultimately, lead to the death of large parts of the private, for-profit health insurance industry.

Why? Because there is absolutely no way for-profit health insurers are going to be able to learn how to get by and still make a profit while being forced to spend at least 80 percent of their receipts providing their customers with the coverage for which they paid. If they could, we likely would never have seen the extraordinary efforts made by these companies to avoid paying benefits to their customers at the very moment they need it the most.

Today, that bomb goes off.

Today, the Department of Health & Human Services issues the rules of what insurer expenditures will—and will not—qualify as a medical expense for purposes of meeting the requirement.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17lkdqoLt44]The Gap Band - You Dropped A Bomb On Me - YouTube[/ame]

So whats the plan?

Force Doctors to provide care at gun point. The government doesnt pay its bills on time now. Democrats once again with the checks in the mail BS.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

FYI, the reason health care in America continually goes up is because of advances in science and governmental regulations.

That's why one pill costs you $10.


If you want a country that still uses leeches move.

Nope. It's 3 fold.

The true reason on why Health Care Insurance and Healthcare costs have gone up, is because of government subsidies...they give you a tax break for buying health insurance, they pay for the health care of all seniors, they give a tax break to businesses that buy your health care insurance plans....they pay for Medicaid to insure the poor....etc etc etc etc etc....

Do you REALLY believe that health care costs would be this high, if gvt had not been subsidizing it all these years?

Do you really believe there would have not been more resistance from the Individuals in the market place to higher costs if the subsidies were not there via the gvt?

In addition to this, Insurance industries take their CUT, for pushing the paper, and this can account for 30% of our health care costs.

and thirdly, due to so many millions without health insurance, using the emergency rooms as a doctor's office, and many of them not having the money to pay the hospital bill, has sky rocketed costs for all of us....the hospitals are trying to make up some of these loses by raising the price of health care insurance plans negotiated, and WE IN TURN pay for higher health insurance costs, to cover the uninsured, in part.

they fund nearly 50% of the R & D costs,

And yet the pharma companies claim 100% of the copyrights, driving up the cost of the medicines the government contributes at least 50% to develop and discover. True, the government lets them, but what would the response be if it didn't, if it regulated pharmas ability to profit from the investment of public funding? Charges of (GHASP!) SOCIALISM! Lions and tigers and bears, oh MY! Its all very well and good for corporations to take advantage of government funding and research (our money spent), but woe betide the soul who should suggest they should have any reciprocate responsibility for the hand up (our money returned with a little bit of interest).

medicines the government contributes at least 50% to develop and discover.

Really? All of them? Link?

 

[onecut39]

As stated since this debate began. Obamatax is step one to a single payer government healt plan with no private insurance, doctors or pharmaceuticals companies.

Does Medicare and Medicaid follow the same rule?

Medicare overhead is in the 3 to 5% RANGE.

MEDICARE IS A SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM.

 

[Big Fitz]

Medicare and Medicaid patients only use PRIVATE doctors, and Private Hospitals, and Private Laboratories, etc I would presume this will also be the case with a future single payer health care plan for those under 65....if it ever got in to place?

as Far as the Health Insurance Industry, they will still be around...similar to Medicare, they will get in to the Supplemental Health Insurance policies more, and develop other areas of Business, they certainly would not just "give up", they would diversify more than they have already and give it their all to survive....if we ever went to a single payer plan.

Why do you think these outfits will be around if they can't make a profit?

Answer: they won't be.

In the soviet union when they made doctors economically equal to janitors, they got too many janitors and a shortage of doctors.

People will not work for less than what their work is worth. Businesses will go under if they cannot make a profit because there is no reason to struggle hard for no extra gain. It has been the case of man since time immemorial.

You more than likely have not worked for a corporation...I have, for 5 different ones...they will NOT just let themselves go belly up...they will find ways to cut expenses and be more efficient in what they do, and expand their business realm, before they would ever give up.

And as far as Doctors....they won't give up either....and there will always be humans that want to be doctors regardless of extreme profits being avail to them or not.

Our prices for doctors and labs and hospitals would not be as high as they are if the government had not been subsidizing it. the market would have given resistance to these higher medical fees and charges...this would have kept prices down....what the heck are the Doctors bitching about? they should be kissing government's feet at this point imho.

I've worked in corporations as well as public sector and small companies.

All of them can fail and be gone tomorrow.

Ever hear of Enron? The Rock Island Railroad? Lehman Brothers? Penn Central? Circuit City? Are their corporate offices still working?

And as far as Doctors....they won't give up either....and there will always be humans that want to be doctors regardless of extreme profits being avail to them or not.

There will always be a need, but almost half of those currently in the industry probably won't be. How well are we going to fare with only 55% of the doctors we currently have because it is not worth the stress and pain of the job?

http://news.investors.com/article/506199/200909151909/45-of-doctors-would-consider-quitting-if-congress-passes-health-care-overhaul.htm

Our prices for doctors and labs and hospitals would not be as high as they are if the government had not been subsidizing it. the market would have given resistance to these higher medical fees and charges...this would have kept prices down....what the heck are the Doctors bitching about? they should be kissing government's feet at this point imho.

Doctors no. Labs, pharmacorps, hospital corps and insurance companies sure as hell are... unless paid by Medicare Medicaid that pays around 50 cents on the dollar or less and only after long bureaucratic fights. What does the government do of course is increase the costs of drug development by FDA regulations, state mandates and all sorts of loopholes. Plus the Clinton Admin in 1994 ended the bar of medical advertising and allowed them to advertise directly to the public. At that point, the costs of drugs skyrocketed to cover the cost of multi BILLION dollar advertising campaigns aimed at getting consumers to become hypochondriacs and demand expensive drugs from their doctors. R&D revenues dropped accordingly.

End pharmaceutical advertisng and you will also watch unnecessary use and sales of drugs with inflated name brands plummet back to earth. When marketing consumes 50-80% of a drug's development budget, it's time to fix that.

 

[Big Fitz]

As stated since this debate began. Obamatax is step one to a single payer government healt plan with no private insurance, doctors or pharmaceuticals companies.

Does Medicare and Medicaid follow the same rule?

Medicare overhead is in the 3 to 5% RANGE.

MEDICARE IS A SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM.

And denies far more services and treatments than private insurance. That'll keep costs down. I know doctors complain they also are harder to get money out of their wallet than a liberal with their own money.

 

[code1211]

Why do you think these outfits will be around if they can't make a profit?

Answer: they won't be.

In the soviet union when they made doctors economically equal to janitors, they got too many janitors and a shortage of doctors.

People will not work for less than what their work is worth. Businesses will go under if they cannot make a profit because there is no reason to struggle hard for no extra gain. It has been the case of man since time immemorial.

Then why do these doctors go off to poor countries and give their medical expertise for free!?

False premise that ability begets charity. Because they have the time and money to do so, that is why they give.

If they were working stiffs here who were struggling financially, Doctors Without Borders could not exist. Wealth and a charitable heart allow charities like that to exist.

I had a condition that could have been fatal but was controlled by pills then led to surgery and recovery.

It struck me going through all of the various stages of the illness that the doctors who were all very well educated, courteous, competent and driven, that they were guiding tubes through orifices in me that I have only explored a few select and quite attractive females.

Having Wednesdays off looks appealing to a student who sees them playing golf, but the actual work they do is not really glamorous or even appealing. It often occurs at odd hours and often occurs on weekends.

In my job, I have never been called upon to examine the entrails of a middle aged man with my fingers. I hope never to be called upon to do so.

Doctors are often saddled with the reputation of having a God complex and being elite and so forth, but they do what they do, most of them, because they want to help people.

Doctors without borders is just another way to do what they do all the time.

 

[code1211]

The Bomb Buried In Obamacare Explodes Today-Hallelujah! - Forbes



The Gap Band - You Dropped A Bomb On Me - YouTube

If you believe that the end of private, for-profit health insurance is some type of nefarious step towards a socialist society, then you might want to attend church this Sunday to mourn the loss of health insurers being able to worm out of covering the bills of a cancer patient because she forgot to write down on her application that she had skin acne for three months when she was a teenager.

roflmao, lucky me, I've been healthy this year, and so has my kid.

Same. In fact, I pay good money for good insurance that I rarely use.

Education and Health Insurance are two areas in which we are willing to pay good money and get less than we pay for. Maybe the only two.

 

[onecut39]

As stated since this debate began. Obamatax is step one to a single payer government healt plan with no private insurance, doctors or pharmaceuticals companies.

Does Medicare and Medicaid follow the same rule?

Medicare overhead is in the 3 to 5% RANGE.

MEDICARE IS A SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM.

And denies far more services and treatments than private insurance. That'll keep costs down. I know doctors complain they also are harder to get money out of their wallet than a liberal with their own money.

Says who? I have been on medicare for almost ten years and have never been denied treatment. I cannot say the same for those I know on private insurance.

My daughter lost her job and when she applied for private insurance one company told her they would not cover anything related to any illness she had ever had or any condition she had discussed with a doctor.

Find that hard to believe? So did I but she showed me the contract. I don't know how they intended to enforce that but I do know that unless you grant access to your medical records you will never get insurance. That was in the contract too.

 

[uscitizen]

As stated since this debate began. Obamatax is step one to a single payer government healt plan with no private insurance, doctors or pharmaceuticals companies.

Does Medicare and Medicaid follow the same rule?

Medicare and Medicaid patients only use PRIVATE doctors, and Private Hospitals, and Private Laboratories, etc I would presume this will also be the case with a future single payer health care plan for those under 65....if it ever got in to place?

as Far as the Health Insurance Industry, they will still be around...similar to Medicare, they will get in to the Supplemental Health Insurance policies more, and develop other areas of Business, they certainly would not just "give up", they would diversify more than they have already and give it their all to survive....if we ever went to a single payer plan.

there is already the privatized part of Medicare. Advantage plans (part C?) which cost taxpayers 14% more than traditional medicare for the same procedures.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

democrats support taxing the middle class. obamacare the tax that wasn't a tax. That's the true bomb.

 

[Big Fitz]

Medicare overhead is in the 3 to 5% RANGE.

MEDICARE IS A SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM.

And denies far more services and treatments than private insurance. That'll keep costs down. I know doctors complain they also are harder to get money out of their wallet than a liberal with their own money.

Says who? I have been on medicare for almost ten years and have never been denied treatment. I cannot say the same for those I know on private insurance.

My daughter lost her job and when she applied for private insurance one company told her they would not cover anything related to any illness she had ever had or any condition she had discussed with a doctor.

Find that hard to believe? So did I but she showed me the contract. I don't know how they intended to enforce that but I do know that unless you grant access to your medical records you will never get insurance. That was in the contract too.

Says the AMA scorecard.

Medicare: Largest Denier Of Health Care Claims

And before you spazz out, the AMA was for Obamatax.

 

[Barb]

Nope. It's 3 fold.

The true reason on why Health Care Insurance and Healthcare costs have gone up, is because of government subsidies...they give you a tax break for buying health insurance, they pay for the health care of all seniors, they give a tax break to businesses that buy your health care insurance plans....they pay for Medicaid to insure the poor....etc etc etc etc etc....

Do you REALLY believe that health care costs would be this high, if gvt had not been subsidizing it all these years?

Do you really believe there would have not been more resistance from the Individuals in the market place to higher costs if the subsidies were not there via the gvt?

In addition to this, Insurance industries take their CUT, for pushing the paper, and this can account for 30% of our health care costs.

and thirdly, due to so many millions without health insurance, using the emergency rooms as a doctor's office, and many of them not having the money to pay the hospital bill, has sky rocketed costs for all of us....the hospitals are trying to make up some of these loses by raising the price of health care insurance plans negotiated, and WE IN TURN pay for higher health insurance costs, to cover the uninsured, in part.

they fund nearly 50% of the R & D costs,

And yet the pharma companies claim 100% of the copyrights, driving up the cost of the medicines the government contributes at least 50% to develop and discover. True, the government lets them, but what would the response be if it didn't, if it regulated pharmas ability to profit from the investment of public funding? Charges of (GHASP!) SOCIALISM! Lions and tigers and bears, oh MY! Its all very well and good for corporations to take advantage of government funding and research (our money spent), but woe betide the soul who should suggest they should have any reciprocate responsibility for the hand up (our money returned with a little bit of interest).

medicines the government contributes at least 50% to develop and discover.

Really? All of them? Link?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...NLhaHsSZbOCR4oUVw&sig2=kZN8NQ_Ra7d0LTXR_yxmbg

All these figures are summarized in Table 1. It
shows that, based on the highest estimate of
the methods described above, the global
estimate for basic research to discover
important new pharmaceutical products is
US$ 52.7 billion for 2001. This equals 54% of
the total US$ 105.9 billion global estimate on
all health research. Governments and the public
contribute 84.2% of the world’s basic research
budget for health, industry contributes 12%,
and private non-profit sources contribute 3.8%.
If taxpayers’ subsidies to industry are actually
higher for the reasons explained, the public’s
share would be still greater. In conclusion,
while it is true as Monitoring Financial Flows
states that “The private for-profit sector is the
largest investor globally”, the public sector is
by far the largest investor globally in basic
research to discover important new drugs and
vaccines.