Ya know? How about an honest discussion.

[Midnight Marauder]

Sorry kids, none of tis crap adds up. Clearly the majority of Americans don't want what is being foisted.. so.. what's the REAL agenda?

The reason it appears most Americans don't want it is because once again, the Republican Noise Machine has won.

Oh, you're wrong again my Dear.

The Dems WILL pass this, no matter what. They are invested in Obama doing well and they WILL fall on their re-election swords to get this passed. They don't NEED any GOP votes or support to do so, so blaming the GOP for the trouble they're having is hugely misplaced blame.

If you must blame someone, blame the blue-dogs who stopped this from getting passed before the recess! The rest of the Party is, that's why they're talking about special rules for this vote -- simple majority -- to get this passed without the GOP or their blue-dogs!

We're going to get this bill, I've never had any doubts about that.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Here's how stupid you are, since it hasn't been made obvious for you. I'll stop batting at you now like a cat does to a furball.

QUESTION:

Which of my political views make me one side, over the other, in-terms of being a partisan.

I mean, if you're going to label me something, fuck it, let's discuss based on its actual merits.

What views make me which-sided? G'luck. I already know your response.

See, you're getting all upset now. I love it when a plan comes together!

Please go back and read your OP, and try to see the irony in it. Then read all your posts here, which have been nothing more than far-left regurgitated, spoon fed talking points from places like the DU, sweetened with inaccurate, ad-hom demonization religiously following Saul Alinsky's rules for radicals, then you have answered your own question.

Tack on your ageism bigotry, and the fact that you use vehicular manslaughter analogies against old people, and the leftist partisan hack label fits you to a T.

Ironically, the radical right organizations responsible for the wild protests have been using the Alinsky model. I think Dick Armey even alluded to that on MTP Sunday.

Keep blaming boogeymen! That "non-partisan" G.T. will be ALL over you!

 

[MaggieMae]

KISS look at Massachusetts.

The model for what is proposed. How far in the red is that state??? Hello?

That is an unrealistic comparison willow tree.

First study after study has been done showing that universal health care if implemented throughout the country will actually drive health care costs down.

Secondly if individual states try to go it alone they are at distinct disadvantages . The first thing the insurance companies do is raise rates and say tough luck if you don't like it we will just pull out of your state.

For instance Kentucky tried several years ago to put caps on medical and auto insurance rates. Insurance companies just pulled out of the state. Took their ball and went home and said we won't play unless you let us charge what we want.

States like Massachusetts that try to go it alone are seeing the insurance companies raise rates sky high because they are being told they cannot exclude people for pre existing conditions. With insurance rates that high, hospitals and doctors naturally want their share of the pie so rates go up across the board including for the state run programs.

Common sense says prices cannot be controlled unless all states are in and coverage is universal across the nation.

Naturally the insurance companies don't like that because that means they will have to compete for a share of the pie. It means they won't make multi billions a year , they may just make a few billion.

These are all nice answers, polite and nicely worded but in no way address the problem of illegal aliens.. and a progressive tax system.. so here we go again.. we will be obligated to pay for 1/2 of Mexico's health care because congress refuses to enforce or immigration laws, secondly roughly 50% of the American public actually pay federal income tax, the others do not and that includes 1/2 of Mexico.. It's an immoral burden on the 50% who will be expected to pay for,, we will be the equivalent of slaves.. or yoked oxen. oh! and just to add they contemplate a 500 billion dollar cut in medicare, so seniors will suffer, and illegals will benefit from that suffering. there is no other way to see it. democrats have thrown the elderly to the wolves in favor of illegals.

Immigration laws will be coming. Shall we get past this controversy first? Trying to link the two is counterproductive.

 

[wvpeach]

KISS look at Massachusetts.

The model for what is proposed. How far in the red is that state??? Hello?

None of the states which have implemented their own health care initiatives ever promised it wouldn't cost anything at the startup, nor that it would ever be a profitable exercise. THINK, for a change, would ya?

phuck YEW

Now I wouldn't call your behavior very lady like . Would you Willow?

Or is that not a consideration for you?

 

[WillowTree]

By the way Factcheck.org or whatever the fuck it's called doesn't tell the WHOLE truth. The bill doesn't say it will cover illegal immigrants, but it doesn't say it wouldn't either. The bill does provide cuts in Medicare,( 500 billion in the next ten years) which will effect senior citizens. Oh but factcheck doesn't mention that huh? How convenient.

It will cover illegals. You see the democwat congresscritters voted down the Heller Amendment. That's the game say you are against illegal immigration out of one side of your mouth and out of the other make it impossible to check.. Dishonest fuckery at it's very best. And no we don't presently cover illegals with full service medical care.. they are only entitled to emergency care.

I've posted the truth about the Heller amendment for YOU, specifically, and you choose to ignore it, as does the Just Say No blogosphere which is literally afire with attacks concerning that amendment.

The facts are these:

The only way anyone can get free health care under the existing proposals is to get "affordability credits" to pay for their health care. Two sections in the House bill already address this:

Sec. 242 states that in order to be eligible for affordability credits a person must be "an individual who is lawfully present in a State in the United States."

Section 246 states "NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS." Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

Both of those sections basically render the Heller amendment moot, since undocumented aliens are clearly NOT covered.

Finally, the Heller amendment would have generated intrusive investigation of ONLY those who opted for the public plan, and not those who opt for private plans creating a blatant discriminatory practice against poorer Americans.

phuck yew!

 

[WillowTree]

so I am correct illegals will receive care because the democrats refuse to allow anyone to verify legal status. end of story. you can't have it both ways. either verify legal status or stfu democrats.. 500 billion dollar cuts from medicare + refusal to veryify legal status == taking from seniors and giving to illegals.

 

[WillowTree]

None of the states which have implemented their own health care initiatives ever promised it wouldn't cost anything at the startup, nor that it would ever be a profitable exercise. THINK, for a change, would ya?

phuck YEW

Now I wouldn't call your behavior very lady like . Would you Willow?

Or is that not a consideration for you?

don't give a shit what you call it. Maggie knows..

 

[MaggieMae]

wow!! Maggie mae and WVpeach are on fire with facts!!!

Demand is there. It's the boondoggle of delivery crapped up by insurance that is the problem. People aren't suddenly going to get sick if they are covered. So the demand angle is fallacious and dishonest.

I have a friend who would get insurance if someone would sell it to him. But he has pre-existing conditions, not really.......he went through several shock traumas and came out of them like the bionic man and is an incredible specimen. He has a dangerous job and then some lady hit him with her car. He was shock trauma'd to a hospital, and because he wasn't insured he got crappy care and was released before he was stable. He got cellulitis and went back to the hospital and they told him to go away, then he had to go back because he almost lost his leg to the cellulitis and then it took a month in hospital to get him back to stable. Is this a good thing? Crappy care because of no insurance and then a month of bed space.? The hospital had to eat it. But he struggled for 4 years because of their practices and is still dealing with a dead tendon in his foot and out of pocket like 50k for that. He works, he has a rare skill, but isn't insurable. So the insurance industry is locking him out. He'd gladly pay into the schip in the state here, but he is single and has no children so he isn't eligible. He was out of the work force for several years tending to his injury on his own when he could have been a productive member of society and paying taxes, there are very few people who know how to do what he does, the demand is high for his skills.

Insurance fucks with every aspect of our lives and makes it worse, clogs the courts and slows down production and steals from the tax base.

Just one of tens of thousands of horror stories. I have my own, which doesn't involve a painful illness, but hospital overcharging Medicare--because they can. There was someone on a panel sponsored by Health Affairs on C-Span2 this morning, and he was discussing the same thing in my personal complaint. When you go to the hospital for lab tests, you literally get charged an arm and a leg because you are shuttled through a half-dozen tiers of fully staffed hospital offices before you actually get to the one where the tests are done. And the tests wind up being the least expensive of the entire trip.

 

[MaggieMae]

Sorry kids, none of tis crap adds up. Clearly the majority of Americans don't want what is being foisted.. so.. what's the REAL agenda?

The reason it appears most Americans don't want it is because once again, the Republican Noise Machine has won.

Oh, you're wrong again my Dear.

The Dems WILL pass this, no matter what. They are invested in Obama doing well and they WILL fall on their re-election swords to get this passed. They don't NEED any GOP votes or support to do so, so blaming the GOP for the trouble they're having is hugely misplaced blame.

If you must blame someone, blame the blue-dogs who stopped this from getting passed before the recess! The rest of the Party is, that's why they're talking about special rules for this vote -- simple majority -- to get this passed without the GOP or their blue-dogs!

We're going to get this bill, I've never had any doubts about that.

They can't even get a simple majority without the Blue Dogs and with Kennedy and Byrd out of commission. If anything passes at all, it will simply be a regulatory overhaul of the insurance industry.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

The reason it appears most Americans don't want it is because once again, the Republican Noise Machine has won.

Oh, you're wrong again my Dear.

The Dems WILL pass this, no matter what. They are invested in Obama doing well and they WILL fall on their re-election swords to get this passed. They don't NEED any GOP votes or support to do so, so blaming the GOP for the trouble they're having is hugely misplaced blame.

If you must blame someone, blame the blue-dogs who stopped this from getting passed before the recess! The rest of the Party is, that's why they're talking about special rules for this vote -- simple majority -- to get this passed without the GOP or their blue-dogs!

We're going to get this bill, I've never had any doubts about that.

They can't even get a simple majority without the Blue Dogs and with Kennedy and Byrd out of commission. If anything passes at all, it will simply be a regulatory overhaul of the insurance industry.

They will appease enough of the blue dogs, sweeten the pot for them and their districts enough, and will get a very few GOP votes the same way. For an example, see the stimulus.

It's going to be passed.

 

[MaggieMae]

See, you're getting all upset now. I love it when a plan comes together!

Please go back and read your OP, and try to see the irony in it. Then read all your posts here, which have been nothing more than far-left regurgitated, spoon fed talking points from places like the DU, sweetened with inaccurate, ad-hom demonization religiously following Saul Alinsky's rules for radicals, then you have answered your own question.

Tack on your ageism bigotry, and the fact that you use vehicular manslaughter analogies against old people, and the leftist partisan hack label fits you to a T.

Ironically, the radical right organizations responsible for the wild protests have been using the Alinsky model. I think Dick Armey even alluded to that on MTP Sunday.

Keep blaming boogeymen! That "non-partisan" G.T. will be ALL over you!

Really? Recognize anything here?

From Alinsky's Rules for Radicals:

Tactics are those conscious deliberate acts by which human beings live with each other and deal with the world around them. ... Here our concern is with the tactic of taking; how the Have-Nots can take power away from the Haves." p.126

Always remember the first rule of power tactics (pps.127-134):

1. "Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have."

2. "Never go outside the expertise of your people. When an action or tactic is outside the experience of the people, the result is confusion, fear and retreat.... [and] the collapse of communication.

3. "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)

4. "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity."

5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage."

6. "A good tactic is one your people enjoy."

7. "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag. Man can sustain militant interest in any issue for only a limited time...."

8. "Keep the pressure on, with different tactics and actions, and utilize all events of the period for your purpose."

9. "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself."

10. "The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. It is this unceasing pressure that results in the reactions from the opposition that are essential for the success of the campaign."

11. "If you push a negative hard and deep enough, it will break through into its counterside... every positive has its negative."

12. "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative."

13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'...

"...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...'

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Ironically, the radical right organizations responsible for the wild protests have been using the Alinsky model. I think Dick Armey even alluded to that on MTP Sunday.

Keep blaming boogeymen! That "non-partisan" G.T. will be ALL over you!

Really? Recognize anything here?

From Alinsky's Rules for Radicals:

Tactics are those conscious deliberate acts by which human beings live with each other and deal with the world around them. ... Here our concern is with the tactic of taking; how the Have-Nots can take power away from the Haves." p.126

Always remember the first rule of power tactics (pps.127-134):

1. "Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have."

2. "Never go outside the expertise of your people. When an action or tactic is outside the experience of the people, the result is confusion, fear and retreat.... [and] the collapse of communication.

3. "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)

4. "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity."

5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage."

6. "A good tactic is one your people enjoy."

7. "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag. Man can sustain militant interest in any issue for only a limited time...."

8. "Keep the pressure on, with different tactics and actions, and utilize all events of the period for your purpose."

9. "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself."

10. "The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. It is this unceasing pressure that results in the reactions from the opposition that are essential for the success of the campaign."

11. "If you push a negative hard and deep enough, it will break through into its counterside... every positive has its negative."

12. "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative."

13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'...

"...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...'

Yes, that's exactly what the far-Left is doing. Hence the recognition!

 

[MaggieMae]

None of the states which have implemented their own health care initiatives ever promised it wouldn't cost anything at the startup, nor that it would ever be a profitable exercise. THINK, for a change, would ya?

phuck YEW

Now I wouldn't call your behavior very lady like . Would you Willow?

Or is that not a consideration for you?

It's how wittle wiwwow aways adwessses me. (You probably haven't seen her baby talk yet.)

 

[MaggieMae]

so I am correct illegals will receive care because the democrats refuse to allow anyone to verify legal status. end of story. you can't have it both ways. either verify legal status or stfu democrats.. 500 billion dollar cuts from medicare + refusal to veryify legal status == taking from seniors and giving to illegals.

If someone without legal documents applies for health care assistance, it will be known whether he/she is here illegally and would be deported. It's a fucking no-brainer, woman.

 

[wvpeach]

phuck YEW

Now I wouldn't call your behavior very lady like . Would you Willow?

Or is that not a consideration for you?

It's how wittle wiwwow aways adwessses me. (You probably haven't seen her baby talk yet.)

Haven't known Willow Tree long but it's fast becoming apparent she is not worth knowing.

 

[MaggieMae]

Keep blaming boogeymen! That "non-partisan" G.T. will be ALL over you!

Really? Recognize anything here?

From Alinsky's Rules for Radicals:

Tactics are those conscious deliberate acts by which human beings live with each other and deal with the world around them. ... Here our concern is with the tactic of taking; how the Have-Nots can take power away from the Haves." p.126

Always remember the first rule of power tactics (pps.127-134):

1. "Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have."

2. "Never go outside the expertise of your people. When an action or tactic is outside the experience of the people, the result is confusion, fear and retreat.... [and] the collapse of communication.

3. "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)

4. "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity."

5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage."

6. "A good tactic is one your people enjoy."

7. "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag. Man can sustain militant interest in any issue for only a limited time...."

8. "Keep the pressure on, with different tactics and actions, and utilize all events of the period for your purpose."

9. "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself."

10. "The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. It is this unceasing pressure that results in the reactions from the opposition that are essential for the success of the campaign."

11. "If you push a negative hard and deep enough, it will break through into its counterside... every positive has its negative."

12. "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative."

13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'...

"...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...'

Yes, that's exactly what the far-Left is doing. Hence the recognition!

So how can that be when at least in some of these town hall meetings, the speaker (presumed to be an evil far-leftist) is shouted down and not allowed to speak. Make sense, cowboy. Second request.

 

[WillowTree]

so I am correct illegals will receive care because the democrats refuse to allow anyone to verify legal status. end of story. you can't have it both ways. either verify legal status or stfu democrats.. 500 billion dollar cuts from medicare + refusal to veryify legal status == taking from seniors and giving to illegals.

If someone without legal documents applies for health care assistance, it will be known whether he/she is here illegally and would be deported. It's a fucking no-brainer, woman.

phuck yew!

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Really? Recognize anything here?

From Alinsky's Rules for Radicals:

Tactics are those conscious deliberate acts by which human beings live with each other and deal with the world around them. ... Here our concern is with the tactic of taking; how the Have-Nots can take power away from the Haves." p.126

Always remember the first rule of power tactics (pps.127-134):

1. "Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have."

2. "Never go outside the expertise of your people. When an action or tactic is outside the experience of the people, the result is confusion, fear and retreat.... [and] the collapse of communication.

3. "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)

4. "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity."

5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage."

6. "A good tactic is one your people enjoy."

7. "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag. Man can sustain militant interest in any issue for only a limited time...."

8. "Keep the pressure on, with different tactics and actions, and utilize all events of the period for your purpose."

9. "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself."

10. "The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. It is this unceasing pressure that results in the reactions from the opposition that are essential for the success of the campaign."

11. "If you push a negative hard and deep enough, it will break through into its counterside... every positive has its negative."

12. "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative."

13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'...

"...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...'

Yes, that's exactly what the far-Left is doing. Hence the recognition!

So how can that be when at least in some of these town hall meetings, the speaker (presumed to be an evil far-leftist) is shouted down and now allowed to speak. Make sense, cowboy. Second request.

You've never watched, or attended any of these meetings have you. You're simply babbling regurgitated nonsense again! And following Alinksy's rules yourself! Don't you see that?

 

[WillowTree]

Now I wouldn't call your behavior very lady like . Would you Willow?

Or is that not a consideration for you?

It's how wittle wiwwow aways adwessses me. (You probably haven't seen her baby talk yet.)

Haven't known Willow Tree long but it's fast becoming apparent she is not worth knowing.

good,, then don't bother..

 

[WillowTree]

Here's the real deal,, The honest truth.

Illegals steal identification to land jobs, to buy homes, with stolen ID they will be enrolled at the public's expense in your socialized medical care. Your government owned government run health care and americans will be expected to foot the bill for it. so take your morality manta and place it where the moon don't shine,, same thing with your "lets have an honest discussion mantra.".

Illegal immigrants turn to identity theft - Security- msnbc.com


so until and unless you are willing to E verify some ones legality I don't want you blowing demoncwat smoke up my ass cause that dog don't hunt.