Ya know? How about an honest discussion.

[MaggieMae]

BThe bill doesn't say it will cover illegal immigrants, but it doesn't say it wouldn't either.

Yes, it actually says that explicitly. Factcheck mentioned the section, and I looked it up in the text of the bill on opencongress.

Damn I go to lunch and this thing has exploded into five pages.

From the link GT posted the only thing it says about illegal immigrants is:

THE POLL: 55 percent expect the overhaul will give coverage to illegal immigrants; 34 percent don't.

THE FACTS: The proposals being negotiated do not provide coverage for illegal immigrants.
FACT:

The Democratically-controlled U.S. House Ways and Means Committee voted 23-18 to defeat the measure introduced by Rep. Dean Heller (R-NV), which would have required the use of the existing Income and Eligibility Verification System and the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements System, before any care is given. This move would have ensured that only U.S. citizens would receive the taxpayer funded care.

While Obama has made claims that illegal aliens will not be covered by his plan, the following line can be found among the 1018 page bill: Sec. 59B, Pg. 170, Line 1 - “Any NONRESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes.”

Judicial Watch’s president Tom Fitton recently reported that Mexico directs their citizens who live in the U.S. illegally, to use taxpayer funded clinics in a dozen cities. The program is called Ventanillas de Salud (Health Windows), and is implemented in American cities which have Mexican consulates.

The government of Mexico has operated the program for some time. In 2007, Fitton wrote the following:

“Chicago, Houston, Los Angeles, San Diego and Indiana are among the cities where Mexican consulates operate the health referral system which annually costs U.S. taxpayers billions of dollars. In Los Angeles County alone, illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $440 million in health services annually and a whopping $1.1 billion statewide.

Illegal aliens will be covered under Obama’s healthcare bill

There you go again. You absolutely REFUSE to accept as fact the two sections of the House bill which deal with illegals which I posted previously. I'm not going to go looking for it, because you seem to have the worst case of tunnel vision I've ever encountered on any message board and it therefore isn't worth my double time, always necessary where you're concerned.

And by the way, what the hell does some article from 2007 have to do with anything? Or some opinion page which also is not up to snuff on the current facts as they appear in black and white TODAY?

 

[MaggieMae]

so I am correct illegals will receive care because the democrats refuse to allow anyone to verify legal status. end of story. you can't have it both ways. either verify legal status or stfu democrats.. 500 billion dollar cuts from medicare + refusal to veryify legal status == taking from seniors and giving to illegals.

If someone without legal documents applies for health care assistance, it will be known whether he/she is here illegally and would be deported. It's a fucking no-brainer, woman.

How will it be known?

Oh please, now you're talking like you're about five. Even someone without legal ID who wants food stamps needs to produce SOMETHING to prove s/he's a resident. In some states, they will require a utility bill in the person's name or if they are homeless, they must produce a voucher for the food stamps from the shelter administrator. Nobody can just walk in off the street and jump into a federal program. Do you enjoy being dumbed down?

 

[MaggieMae]

Once Obama grants them all amnesty, they'll no longer be illegal. Problem solved...

How about we close the boarders?

Then worry about the illegals already in the nation.

Doesn't that sound reasonable.

No sense after all worrying about illegals already here till we stop them from pouring over the boarder every day..................... now is there?

I have no issue with closing the border, hell, close the northern border as well. Plenty of crossings there as well. To say there is no sense in worrying about those already in the country strikes me as somewhat defeatist, however. Despite protestations to the contrary, it could be possible to find those in this country illegally and deport them to their country of origin. It's been done before. The problem is, the current politically correct atmosphere in which we find ourselves would make the process very hard.

It isn't just the political atmosphere, but the simple logistical problem of rounding up all the illegals. What if there was a nationwide dragnet? Where would we put them all while waiting for convoys of busses to arrive at hubs to transport them south of the border? What would we do with children of illegals who were born here and have a right to legally remain? Start refurbishing crumbling orphanages? Where would the extra border agents or police enforcers come from to begin even rounding them up?

People who think simply deporting illegals is a simple task that isn't being done because it's politically disadvantageous are not thinking through this huge problem.

 

[MaggieMae]

How will it be known?

Only citizens with valid social security cards will be issued health care cards.

No brainer - indeed.

for those of you with no brain,, it's just that easy. hey?

Okay, genius, enlighten me. Tell me how easy it would be for an illegal immigrant to sneak into any government sponsored healthcare system without papers of any kind.

 

[MaggieMae]

We're already taxed so that old people and Congress get theirs, why not let us get in on the program?

You got yours so gimme mine. That is what this is really all about, isn't it?

Huh? Kinda got that backwards, bud. It's the have-nots who want a fighting chance. It's you people with the attitude: I got mine, so fuck you.

 

[MaggieMae]

If someone without legal documents applies for health care assistance, it will be known whether he/she is here illegally and would be deported

Oh! Since you put it this way!
Like this is hapenning at ER's all over the ocuntry now?

That's a whole different ballgame. Hospitals have their own code of ethics and turn NO ONE away. It has nothing to do with laws.

 

[hjmick]

How about we close the boarders?

Then worry about the illegals already in the nation.

Doesn't that sound reasonable.

No sense after all worrying about illegals already here till we stop them from pouring over the boarder every day..................... now is there?

I have no issue with closing the border, hell, close the northern border as well. Plenty of crossings there as well. To say there is no sense in worrying about those already in the country strikes me as somewhat defeatist, however. Despite protestations to the contrary, it could be possible to find those in this country illegally and deport them to their country of origin. It's been done before. The problem is, the current politically correct atmosphere in which we find ourselves would make the process very hard.

It isn't just the political atmosphere, but the simple logistical problem of rounding up all the illegals. What if there was a nationwide dragnet? Where would we put them all while waiting for convoys of busses to arrive at hubs to transport them south of the border? What would we do with children of illegals who were born here and have a right to legally remain? Start refurbishing crumbling orphanages? Where would the extra border agents or police enforcers come from to begin even rounding them up?

People who think simply deporting illegals is a simple task that isn't being done because it's politically disadvantageous are not thinking through this huge problem.

I have no allusions about the difficulties of such a plan, but to say it can't be done at all is conceding defeat. You could start by deporting those picked up during the course of everyday police activity rather than turning them out with a ticket. This may sound harsh, and I suppose it is, but at some point the sovereignty of our borders has to be enforced. As for the children of illegals born here, I would argue that the "anchor baby" aspect of the 14th has outlived it's usefulness and needs to be addressed. I am not aware of any other country with this type of provision in their laws, why do we? It would not be an esay thing to do and it would have to start with little changes, but if nothing is done, nothing will change.

 

[WillowTree]

That's why we call em DUmmies. they live under the illusion that it is so easy to find and export illegals,, so why hasn't it been done? Why is California going broke? 23 billion dollar deficit cause it ain't possible for no illegal to get signed onto any government program.. yea right. Go sell you bridge to someone else whydonchya? Why if they were serious about illegals not being enrolled on our socialistic gov. run health care plan did they just vote YES on the Heller Amendment.? I know I know. they aren't in fact serious the dummiecrats have every intention of insuring the illegals at the expense of seniors..

 

[WillowTree]

A government who cannot control it's borders cannot control your health care. It's just that simple.

 

[veritas]

A government who cannot control it's borders cannot control your health care. It's just that simple.

It's possible, but the Republicans don't want to. They have to keep their big biz homies in cheap labor yanno........and play ball with meckseeco.

 

[L.K.Eder]

You can't talk sense to a rock and most of the right wingers seem to have no more mental capabilities than a rock.

Tall talk from someone goostepping behind das Fuhrer, Lord Obama, no mater the agenda. You're not exhibitting much in the way of independent thought yourself.

your akshibtititititng inderpendant orthograffy

 

[veritas]

suffering succotash!!!

 

[WillowTree]

A government who cannot control it's borders cannot control your health care. It's just that simple.

It's possible, but the Republicans don't want to. They have to keep their big biz homies in cheap labor yanno........and play ball with meckseeco.

demoncwats are in charge now big buddy , they voted down any and all attempts to identify illegals.. nice spin but yer dog don't hunt.

 

[wvpeach]

Willow .

You seem to have missed a few things. It's not that our government can't control the boarders. It's that they don't want to control the boarders.

Big difference between won't and can't willow.

As said before the government doesn't control the boarders for several reasons. Not the least of which the influx of illegal labor allows wages for the average working man to be driven down.

Also consider that Mexico is one of our biggest oil suppliers.

Mexico has several times been on the verge of a civil war. Right now they are poised to be taken over by drug cartels and crime king pins. If we close the boarder to our neighbor, tensions will continue to rise in Mexico and when all hell breaks out over there it will effect the US in the way of possibly millions of Mexican refugees streaming across that boarder to escape the violence in their own country.

So while it would be nice to have the boarder closed. There are a lot of reasons to let it be porous enough to keep Mexico from erupting and spilling across our boarders in a much bigger way than they do now.

 

[WillowTree]

Willow .

You seem to have missed a few things. It's not that our government can't control the boarders. It's that they don't want to control the boarders.

Big difference between won't and can't willow.

As said before the government doesn't control the boarders for several reasons. Not the least of which the influx of illegal labor allows wages for the average working man to be driven down.

Also consider that Mexico is one of our biggest oil suppliers.

Mexico has several times been on the verge of a civil war. Right now they are poised to be taken over by drug cartels and crime king pins. If we close the boarder to our neighbor, tensions will continue to rise in Mexico and when all hell breaks out over there it will effect the US in the way of possibly millions of Mexican refugees streaming across that boarder to escape the violence in their own country.

So while it would be nice to have the boarder closed. There are a lot of reasons to let it be porous enough to keep Mexico from erupting and spilling across our boarders in a much bigger way than they do now.

although I appreciate your lecture let's get it clear.. a boarder is someone you give room and board to.. a border is something our government cannot or will not control. Therefore it is just stupid to think they can control our health care. always with the excuses of why it cannot be done. you have just proved my point. We can't deport them, we can't control them, we can't identify them and we can't close the borders.. those were your words,, so I say we can't trust them to control our health care and I'm not willing to pay for 1/2 of the Mexican population.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

A government who cannot control it's borders cannot control your health care. It's just that simple.

A government that cant run a savings program such as Social Security without turning it into a Ponzie Scheme (madoff) can't be trusted with you're health care.

There is more where this is coming from.

 

[hjmick]

Willow .

You seem to have missed a few things. It's not that our government can't control the boarders. It's that they don't want to control the boarders.

Big difference between won't and can't willow.

As said before the government doesn't control the boarders for several reasons. Not the least of which the influx of illegal labor allows wages for the average working man to be driven down.

Also consider that Mexico is one of our biggest oil suppliers.

Mexico has several times been on the verge of a civil war. Right now they are poised to be taken over by drug cartels and crime king pins. If we close the boarder to our neighbor, tensions will continue to rise in Mexico and when all hell breaks out over there it will effect the US in the way of possibly millions of Mexican refugees streaming across that boarder to escape the violence in their own country.

So while it would be nice to have the boarder closed. There are a lot of reasons to let it be porous enough to keep Mexico from erupting and spilling across our boarders in a much bigger way than they do now.

So you're saying that, because the elected government of Mexico is unable to control it's own country and enforce it's laws, the U.S. should simply ignore it's own laws and the sovereignty of it's borders? That about right?

 

[veritas]

I'm not willing to pay for 1/2 of the Mexican population.

We already are.

 

[WillowTree]

Willow .

You seem to have missed a few things. It's not that our government can't control the boarders. It's that they don't want to control the boarders.

Big difference between won't and can't willow.

As said before the government doesn't control the boarders for several reasons. Not the least of which the influx of illegal labor allows wages for the average working man to be driven down.

Also consider that Mexico is one of our biggest oil suppliers.

Mexico has several times been on the verge of a civil war. Right now they are poised to be taken over by drug cartels and crime king pins. If we close the boarder to our neighbor, tensions will continue to rise in Mexico and when all hell breaks out over there it will effect the US in the way of possibly millions of Mexican refugees streaming across that boarder to escape the violence in their own country.

So while it would be nice to have the boarder closed. There are a lot of reasons to let it be porous enough to keep Mexico from erupting and spilling across our boarders in a much bigger way than they do now.

So you're saying that, because the elected government of Mexico is unable to control it's own country and enforce it's laws, the U.S. should simply ignore it's own laws and the sovereignty of it's borders? That about right?

that's exactly the spin. exactly.

 

[veritas]

That's not spin, it's reality.