Would you agree to the assertion that the US is the rightful property of the Democratic Party?

[Derideo_Te]

Complete and utter BS!

That is just the feckless Libertarian attempt to hijack the definition of liberalism.

The Founding Fathers were no different to the liberals of today. They would LOL at Libertarians for being witless impractical fools who don't have a clue as to how to actually run a country.

Did they or did they not fight a war to get away from big overbearing government?

They fought a war for equal representation in that government

If that was true, they would not have disbanded from the English Government.
They fought a war to get away from huge government controlling them.

No they fought a war because they not represented by the government. All they wanted was representation. They government today is a representative government. Why do you have a problem with the government that the FF's put their lives on the line for?

We don't have a representative government for the people today.
They only represent special interests groups now.
This is why people on both sides are angry with them.

That has nothing to do with the size of the government. If you want to stop the corruption of our representatives then push for a constitutional amendment making it illegal to bribe them with campaign contributions and outside funding. And yes, it was the conservatives on the SCOTUS that passed Citizens United allowing corporations to buy your representatives. And it was the conservatives in the House that raised the limits on spending by individuals to excessive levels.

Your problem is of your own making. Stop blaming this phony "big government" deflection and focus your attention on doing what is needed to stop the problem. Demand a constitutional amendment to outlaw all election funding.

 

[Derideo_Te]

So we must toss out democracy since that too came from ancient Greece?

Oh yes, that's exactly what I said, that really nails my point.

Gawd, if it weren't for straw man arguments, half the people here wouldn't have anything to say....

.

Your disparagement of Aristotle was the original strawman. I just exposed it.

Disparagement of Aristotle.

Oy.

Impossible to communicate with partisan ideologues, no longer try.

.

How else would you describe your inane comment?

I would describe it as "something that obviously got under your skin".

Not my problem.

.

Thank you for tacitly admitting that you are just a partisan ideologue yourself who is not interested in an honest debate. Have a nice day.

 

[Derideo_Te]

They fought a war to realize our independence, to acknowledge the creation of a new Nation, and to establish a Constitutional Republic where citizens are subject solely to the rule of law, not men – as men are incapable of ruling justly, having nothing to do with the 'size' of government, or whether government is subjectively perceived to be 'overbearing.'

Indeed, the Framing Generation made no mention as to the 'size' of government, or the ridiculous notion of government being 'too big.' They acknowledged and codified the right of the people to challenge government overreach by filing suit in Federal court, where measures found to be repugnant to the Constitution are invalidated, and those measures determined to comport with the Constitution just and proper; that some on the right incorrectly perceive necessary, proper, and Constitutional measures to be 'overbearing' is ridiculous and ignorant.

Yes they did.
The framers of the Constitution granted a few expressed powers to the national government, reserving the remainder of powers to the states.
This is being totally ignored today.

Read the Constitution

Onus is on you to prove your bogus allegation.

10th Amendment
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people

Onus is still on you to define exactly what "powers" the federal government has allegedly usurped from the states.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Those are the other little morons here. If you don't like my liberal nation then get the fuck out, it wasn't founded for you.

You were pretty much the inspiration for this thread. Now you know.

What is the basis for your assertion?

Please provide credible links of whomever is making this absurd statement.

Is this assertion from your own imagination or actually a thing you can link to?

Just statements like:

... and this is not a nation that was founded for your kind, it was founded for mine.

So we must toss out democracy since that too came from ancient Greece?

We're not a democracy. We are a constitutional federal republic. That's why people outside the cities sometimes get a say too when the one big city in the state isn't totally bulldozing over them, among other things. A true democracy wouldn't really work here. It'd pretty much just be mob rule.

 

[peach174]

Did they or did they not fight a war to get away from big overbearing government?

They fought a war for equal representation in that government

If that was true, they would not have disbanded from the English Government.
They fought a war to get away from huge government controlling them.

No they fought a war because they not represented by the government. All they wanted was representation. They government today is a representative government. Why do you have a problem with the government that the FF's put their lives on the line for?

We don't have a representative government for the people today.
They only represent special interests groups now.
This is why people on both sides are angry with them.

That has nothing to do with the size of the government. If you want to stop the corruption of our representatives then push for a constitutional amendment making it illegal to bribe them with campaign contributions and outside funding. And yes, it was the conservatives on the SCOTUS that passed Citizens United allowing corporations to buy your representatives. And it was the conservatives in the House that raised the limits on spending by individuals to excessive levels.

Your problem is of your own making. Stop blaming this phony "big government" deflection and focus your attention on doing what is needed to stop the problem. Demand a constitutional amendment to outlaw all election funding.

Most of us on both sides have been trying to do that but neither party will do it.
Until you accept that both parties are to blame and both parties are corrupt we won't get anything done as a united people.
Like I said they are not representing we the people but they are representing the special interests groups.

The 10th amendment has everything to do with the size of government.

 

[Mac1958]

Those are the other little morons here. If you don't like my liberal nation then get the fuck out, it wasn't founded for you.

You were pretty much the inspiration for this thread. Now you know.

This happens to me quite a bit. I'll make a point, and in a fit of righteous indignation, they illustrate it.

They do it acting as if I'm wrong (the regular vulgarity, personal insults & name-calling), but they're actually agreeing with or defending the point I made.

Weirdest thing.

.

 

[Derideo_Te]

We're not a democracy. We are a constitutional federal republic.

Your home schooling leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Derideo_Te]

The 10th amendment has everything to do with the size of government.

Something you have yet to prove.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Your home schooling leaves a lot to be desired.

We use representative democracy. This makes us a republic. Were we a democracy everyone would vote on each issue. As a republic, we vote for representatives who vote for us. This is basic knowledge you should know as a US citizen.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Your home schooling leaves a lot to be desired.

We use representative democracy. This makes us a republic. Were we a democracy everyone would vote on each issue. As a republic, we vote for representatives who vote for us. This is basic knowledge you should know as a US citizen.

Your lackluster home schooling is painfully evident.

You alleged that this nation is "not a democracy" and then after you had a chance to google you changed your tune to this is a democracy, albeit a representative one. Here is a newsflash for you, all democracies vote for someone to represent them. That is how a democratic government of the people works.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Your lackluster home schooling is painfully evident.

You alleged that this nation is "not a democracy" and then after you had a chance to google you changed your tune to this is a democracy, albeit a representative one. Here is a newsflash for you, all democracies vote for someone to represent them. That is how a democratic government of the people works.

"Democracy" has two meanings. In the first case, the Greek example you mention, it's a system of government where the entire community votes on an issue. In the second, it's a description of a society in which citizens have suffrage, or the ability to vote. A republic is a democratic form of government, but it is not itself a democracy. It's a system where the people vote for representatives to vote on issues in their stead. That's a term that means "in their place", meaning "for them". This is all sixth grade stuff. You should already be aware of it.

 

[peach174]

The 10th amendment has everything to do with the size of government.

Something you have yet to prove.

see post # 80 pg. 4

 

[Derideo_Te]

The 10th amendment has everything to do with the size of government.

Something you have yet to prove.

see post # 80 pg. 4

Nothing whatsoever in the wording of 10A says squat about the size of the federal government.

The onus is on you to prove that it does.

So far you are just going in ever decreasing circles with nothing to show for it.

 

[peach174]

The 10th amendment has everything to do with the size of government.

Something you have yet to prove.

see post # 80 pg. 4

Nothing whatsoever in the wording of 10A says squat about the size of the federal government.

The onus is on you to prove that it does.

So far you are just going in ever decreasing circles with nothing to show for it.

Article I, section 8 of the Constitution:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;"

"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;"
"To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;"
"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;"
"To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;"
"To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;"
"To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;"
"To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;"
"To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;"
"To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;"

"To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;"
"To provide and maintain a Navy;"
"To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;"
"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;"
"To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"
"To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;"

"And To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

Any thing else is for the States and the People.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Democrats can't own America. They don't believe in private property rights.

 

[peach174]

Democrats can't own America. They don't believe in private property rights.

They also don't believe in individual rights only collective rights.

 

[Derideo_Te]

The 10th amendment has everything to do with the size of government.

Something you have yet to prove.

see post # 80 pg. 4

Nothing whatsoever in the wording of 10A says squat about the size of the federal government.

The onus is on you to prove that it does.

So far you are just going in ever decreasing circles with nothing to show for it.

Article I, section 8 of the Constitution:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;"

"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;"
"To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;"
"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;"
"To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;"
"To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;"
"To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;"
"To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;"
"To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;"
"To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;"

"To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;"
"To provide and maintain a Navy;"
"To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;"
"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;"
"To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"
"To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;"

"And To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

Any thing else is for the States and the People.

BZZZZT Wrong!

First off you have tacitly admitted to being 100% wrong about the 10th amendment and the size of the federal government.

Secondly the powers enumerated above are NOT the final word on the size of government. There have been subsequent amendments to the constitution empowering the federal government beyond just those listed. All of those amendments were proposed and passed by Congress and subsequently ratified by 2/3rds of the States themselves.

On top of that Congress has passed legislation empowering the federal government that has been duly signed into law and much of it has also undergone judicial review by the SCOTUS.

So once again we have an abject failure on your part to prove that the size of the federal government is "unconstitutional".

I suggest that you compare the size of the US government on a per capita basis to other nations in the world. You will be amazed to discover that it is one of the smallest in the world and has been consistently that way for the last couple of decades.

You have nothing to base your whining on. You have been deliberately duped into believing that it is the size of "big government" that is the "problem" and reducing it to where it can be "drowned in a bathtub" is the "solution".

That is Libertarian Utopian hogwash.

Reducing the size of the government only benefits the Koch bros. We the People will be screwed if they get their way.

The problem is the Libertarian Koch bros themselves and the solution is to deprive them of their stranglehold on the government, most especially the GOP and the Tea Party. (Yes, they are funding it up the hilt because it is swallowing their Koolaid and trying to destroy the government OF the people and FOR the people.)

Your heart is in the right place. Your head just needs to get the facts in order.

 

[eagle1462010]

Our Gov't is spending at roughly 24% of the GDP of the Nation.............Historical averages of 18%..............

The dang Federal Gov't is spending money that it cannot afford and driving our Federal Debt to the next Universe......................

It can't be sustained...................It is in the Federalist papers and Founding Comments on why we should LIMIT THE POWER OF THE FEDERAL GOV'T...............

They stated over and over again to rule as local as possible..................which is exactly why they ENUMERATED THE POWERS in the 10th..............

But under the Liberal FDR they changed all that and said the moons the limit................and the size of the Gov't has grown ever since....................

All the promises on these programs are coming home to roost, and will destroy our country economically in the end as there is NO WAY we can PAY ALL THOSE OBLIGATIONS...............

Perhaps this is a good path for those in LA LA LAND, but NOT FOR OUR COUNTRY.............

The Founders were RIGHT TO LIMIT GOV'T..................as once it gets too big for it's britches it eventually burns the house down..................which is the current path we are on.

 

[eagle1462010]

Rights in the Constitution. Hamilton was wary of articulating specific restrictions on federal power, for he felt it was clear that the default position of the federal government was an absence of power, and any specific power existed only by grant from the Constitution:

[A Bill of Rights] would contain various exceptions to powers not granted; and, on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do?

—Alexander Hamilton (1788), Federalist No. 84
These observations foreshadow passage of the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, ratified three years later, which codified the doctrine of enumerated powers:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

—Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, ratified 1791
The principle expressed in Federalist No. 45 was later echoed by Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story:

The Constitution was, from its very origin, contemplated to be the frame of a national government, of special and enumerated powers, and not of general and unlimited powers.

—Justice Joseph Story (1833)[1]
Perhaps vindicating Hamilton's opinion that, at least in the case of the Tenth Amendment (an original component of the Bill of Rights he rallied against), articulating restrictions of federal power were unnecessary, the Supreme Court found in United States v. Sprague (1931) that

The Tenth Amendment was intended to confirm the understanding of the people at the time the Constitution was adopted, that powers not granted to the United States were reserved to the states or to the people. It added nothing to the instrument as originally ratified...

—Justice Owen Roberts (1931)[2]

Federalist No. 45 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[peach174]

The 10th amendment has everything to do with the size of government.

Something you have yet to prove.

see post # 80 pg. 4

Nothing whatsoever in the wording of 10A says squat about the size of the federal government.

The onus is on you to prove that it does.

So far you are just going in ever decreasing circles with nothing to show for it.

Article I, section 8 of the Constitution:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;"

"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;"
"To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;"
"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;"
"To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;"
"To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;"
"To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;"
"To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;"
"To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;"
"To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;"

"To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;"
"To provide and maintain a Navy;"
"To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;"
"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;"
"To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"
"To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;"

"And To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

Any thing else is for the States and the People.

BZZZZT Wrong!

First off you have tacitly admitted to being 100% wrong about the 10th amendment and the size of the federal government.

Secondly the powers enumerated above are NOT the final word on the size of government. There have been subsequent amendments to the constitution empowering the federal government beyond just those listed. All of those amendments were proposed and passed by Congress and subsequently ratified by 2/3rds of the States themselves.

On top of that Congress has passed legislation empowering the federal government that has been duly signed into law and much of it has also undergone judicial review by the SCOTUS.

So once again we have an abject failure on your part to prove that the size of the federal government is "unconstitutional".

I suggest that you compare the size of the US government on a per capita basis to other nations in the world. You will be amazed to discover that it is one of the smallest in the world and has been consistently that way for the last couple of decades.

You have nothing to base your whining on. You have been deliberately duped into believing that it is the size of "big government" that is the "problem" and reducing it to where it can be "drowned in a bathtub" is the "solution".

That is Libertarian Utopian hogwash.

Reducing the size of the government only benefits the Koch bros. We the People will be screwed if they get their way.

The problem is the Libertarian Koch bros themselves and the solution is to deprive them of their stranglehold on the government, most especially the GOP and the Tea Party. (Yes, they are funding it up the hilt because it is swallowing their Koolaid and trying to destroy the government OF the people and FOR the people.)

Your heart is in the right place. Your head just needs to get the facts in order.

Being a Constitutionalist is not being Libertarian.
Being Constitutionalist is about having a Federal Republic not Socially Democratic.
It's your head that is in the wrong place about thinking big government works. The bigger it gets the less freedom we have.
You have been taught the liberal way of government which is not what our government should be and why we are in the trouble we are in, by being 18 Trillion in the hole and why there is so much corruption.