Woman who killed her baby has conviction over turned, Court says six day old baby isn't a person

[Silhouette]

So just to be clear: read my fucking posts. No, I think it should be tried as murder.

Then mandatory prison. You said "choose sterilization or prison".

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

Really? So if a woman shoots up heroin causing her full term baby to be still born. She should face no charges of child abuse?

No. She should just be sterilized.

We agree, heroin addicts like prostitutes have no business having children, heroin addicts and prostitutes should be sterilised. There are many people who shouldn't be allowed to have children, period.

I don't have a problem with prostitutes having children. I agree there are many who shouldn't - but who has the right to decide for them? That's the difficulty.

But if someone deliberately murders his or her children or abuses them....then perhaps an acceptable alternative is to allow that person to choose between prison and sterilization.

When it's prior to birth however - it's another issue. Not so very clear.

"But if someone deliberately murders his or her children or abuses them....then perhaps an acceptable alternative is to allow that person to choose between prison and sterilization."

They get no choice, they have forfeited all rights to either civil rights or human rights.

If someone deliberately murders a child and/or children they should be executed, in an ideal society with it's priorities right, to save taxpayers money, they'd just be taken out and shot in the back of the head, the same sentence for anyone who sexually abuses a child and/or children.

Anyone who is guilty of emotional abuse of a child and/or children, they get no choice, they also have forfeited all rights to either civil rights or human rights, they would be automatically sterilised and given a 30 year prison sentence without parole.

Where children are concerned we should have a Zero Tolerance approach.

You're much stricter than I am. Anyone who murders a child is guilty of murder and whatever penalties that incurs would apply. "Abuse" falls into a grey area that is harder to define and covers a broad spectrum of acts against a child. Sometimes - abuse/neglect can be handled by helping the parents cope or become better parents, for example.

I can not agree to mandatory sterilization (because, it's been abused in the past) but it would be nice to see some sort of sterilization option for certain crimes.

"You're much stricter than I am."

I'm Right-Wing darling, you're Left-Wing, so of course on these situations I'm going to be hardcore.

"Anyone who murders a child is guilty of murder and whatever penalties that incurs would apply."

Law and order is becoming too liberal, this is one reason why society is breaking down, because the liberal attitude to law and order and discipline and punishment. There is no more heinous crime than taking the life of the most innocent in society, children who have no way of defending themselves and who by their innocent nature are trusting of adults because they don't yet know that not all adults are decent, children don't know what evil and wickedness are out there.

Anyone who murders a child should be executed, they're not only killing a child, they're killing a part of the future.

"Abuse" falls into a grey area that is harder to define and covers a broad spectrum of acts against a child. Sometimes - abuse/neglect can be handled by helping the parents cope or become better parents, for example.

If you can't cope, you shouldn't be a parent, nobody is forced to have children, it's a choice, if you can't cope with having children then use contraception or become sterilised.

"I can not agree to mandatory sterilization (because, it's been abused in the past) but it would be nice to see some sort of sterilization option for certain crimes."

Not many people are going to agree to voluntary sterilisation, this is why the only option is mandatory sterilisation, many things have been abused in the past but we still do those things. Mandatory sterilisation helps society and saves children from being born into an environment of abuse and potential physical danger at the hands of amoebas who have no business having children.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

The idea of criminally prosecuting a woman for what happens to her unborn fetus should be really disturbing to most woman. It opens up a pandora's box of retributional legislation against a pregnant woman.

"The idea of criminally prosecuting a woman for what happens to her unborn fetus should be really disturbing to most woman."

No not disturbing, we have an obligation to our unborn children, an obligation not to do anything to damage them, such as by taking drugs and drinking alcohol or doing anything else that might cause them harm.

 

[Coyote]

So just to be clear: read my fucking posts. No, I think it should be tried as murder.

Then mandatory prison. You said "choose sterilization or prison".

I was throwing out ideas.

You can argue for reduced prison time if they submit to sterilization. I don't think you can force sterilization on top of full prison term.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

So just to be clear: read my fucking posts. No, I think it should be tried as murder.

Then mandatory prison. You said "choose sterilization or prison".

I was throwing out ideas.

You can argue for reduced prison time if they submit to sterilization. I don't think you can force sterilization on top of full prison term.

"I don't think you can force sterilization on top of full prison term."

If you have a full prison term, life meaning life and it in Solitary Confinement, then there would be no need for a mandatory sterilisation, because nobody would be able to become pregnant in such circumstances.

 

[Coyote]

So just to be clear: read my fucking posts. No, I think it should be tried as murder.

Then mandatory prison. You said "choose sterilization or prison".

I was throwing out ideas.

You can argue for reduced prison time if they submit to sterilization. I don't think you can force sterilization on top of full prison term.

"I don't think you can force sterilization on top of full prison term."

If you have a full prison term, life meaning life and it in Solitary Confinement, then there would be no need for a mandatory sterilisation, because nobody would be able to become pregnant in such circumstances.

True, but I oppose all solitary confinement. I just think sterilizing those people on top of some sort of prison sentance would be a good punishment and prevent future crimes.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

So just to be clear: read my fucking posts. No, I think it should be tried as murder.

Then mandatory prison. You said "choose sterilization or prison".

I was throwing out ideas.

You can argue for reduced prison time if they submit to sterilization. I don't think you can force sterilization on top of full prison term.

"I don't think you can force sterilization on top of full prison term."

If you have a full prison term, life meaning life and it in Solitary Confinement, then there would be no need for a mandatory sterilisation, because nobody would be able to become pregnant in such circumstances.

True, but I oppose all solitary confinement. I just think sterilizing those people on top of some sort of prison sentance would be a good punishment and prevent future crimes.

"True, but I oppose all solitary confinement."

Why is this? Of course you could put them amongst the other prisoners and then hopefully someone will give them what Jeffrey Dahmer got with some blunt instrument, whoever that man was should have got a reduction in his sentence and also a medal.

"I just think sterilizing those people on top of some sort of prison sentance would be a good punishment and prevent future crimes."

Well there would be no future crimes, because that sort would be in prison for life and it meaning just that, they only leave the prison when it's time for them to be put into a box.

 

[Silhouette]

So just to be clear: read my fucking posts. No, I think it should be tried as murder.

Then mandatory prison. You said "choose sterilization or prison".

I was throwing out ideas.

You can argue for reduced prison time if they submit to sterilization. I don't think you can force sterilization on top of full prison term.

But sterilizing someone for murder is watering down the penalty for murder. That's not a good precedent to set. Surely you can see that? Should we let serial killers go if they promise to have themselves sterilized?

 

[EverCurious]

Wow. I guess I should of known that the right would become unhinged and unrealistic on the subject...

So let me know when that sterilization program for a pregnant woman falling on her face happens, or you know when you sterilize a woman for drinking while pregnant. I mean clearly these folks need to be wiped off the face of the planet for their stupidity [/scarc]

Give me a break.

So when I was 8 months pregnant with my second child, I did a stupid thing, climbed up on a ladder to put the angel on my Christmas tree and fell off. I'd gained 85# with my second kid (apparently making up for the first pregnancy where I gained only 30) and I was completely not used to it. Just to give you an idea about the situation Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet I was absolutely out of sorts and lost my balance, ended up in the ER.

By ya'lls argument had my child been injured or died because of my bad judgement there I'd be sterilized for it and serve jail time for murder.

You are off your god damn rockers...

 

[Coyote]

So just to be clear: read my fucking posts. No, I think it should be tried as murder.

Then mandatory prison. You said "choose sterilization or prison".

I was throwing out ideas.

You can argue for reduced prison time if they submit to sterilization. I don't think you can force sterilization on top of full prison term.

But sterilizing someone for murder is watering down the penalty for murder. That's not a good precedent to set. Surely you can see that? Should we let serial killers go if they promise to have themselves sterilized?

I suppose it's in how you look at it. Should all punishments be the same, or should the fit the crime and the circumstances? What's the purpose of incarceration - punishment? rehabilitation? protect society from dangerous offenders? All three?

Removing someone's reproductive opportunities can certainly be as severe a punishment as incarceration. It also serves to make sure that that person can't produce any other children to abuse. So is that really watering it down if it's in combination with a lighter prison term?

You ask: Should we let serial killers go if they promise to have themselves sterilized?

No. Of course not. Because that is nothing resembling what I've said.

Serial killers are dangerous to society at large, for one.
Their crime does not typically involve abusing their own children.
Sterilization would make no difference.
And no one would let someone go on a "promise".

 

[Coyote]

Wow. I guess I should of known that the right would become unhinged and unrealistic on the subject...

So let me know when that sterilization program for a pregnant woman falling on her face happens, or you know when you sterilize a woman for drinking while pregnant. I mean clearly these folks need to be wiped off the face of the planet for their stupidity [/scarc]

Give me a break.

So when I was 8 months pregnant with my second child, I did a stupid thing, climbed up on a ladder to put the angel on my Christmas tree and fell off. I'd gained 85# with my second kid (apparently making up for the first pregnancy where I gained only 30) and I was completely not used to it. Just to give you an idea about the situation Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet I was absolutely out of sorts and lost my balance, ended up in the ER.

By ya'lls argument had my child been injured or died because of my bad judgement there I'd be sterilized for it and serve jail time for murder.

You are off your god damn rockers...

That's exactly why attempting to inact legislation to criminalize injury to a fetus is opening a pandora's box.

 

[Flopper]

The court ruled that the legislature did not intend to hold pregnant women criminally responsible for conduct with respect to themselves and their unborn fetuses unless such conduct is done intentionally. The court did not consider the question of whether the 6 day old was a person or not. That's an anti-abortionist interpretation.

WHAT???? THE????? FUCK?????!!!!

Why stop at 6 days? Why not extend the "you can kill a child" leeway up to 2 years? More?

6 days, 6, months or 6 years, it's not relevant. The court of appeals did not consider the fetus a person and since there was no intent at time of accident, the mother was not guilty of the later death of child. If the law had recognized the fetus was a person, then the court of appeals would not have overturned the lower court.