Why Space Travel ?

Why stay in one place when we could explore the other 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of everything else? Limiting ourselves is extremely stupid considering there's probably trillions of planets and unlimited resources for us to get our hands on.

Problem is

We can't get our hands on it. Reaching those worlds could take a thousand years, We would never see the benefit
Well duh. No one is talking like this is happening tomorrow. We are just taking the baby steps in a process that will take centuries.
None of us will be alive to see it.
All we can do is pass down the attitude that the destiny of humanity is to spread out.

I think the destiny of humans is to protect the planet we have
Hogwash
 
So "gimme gimme gimme".

Got it.
Better than waste, waste, waste.

If it makes you feel better, I'd rather see the money go to animal shelters or sick children.
Well there are the satalites that predict your weather, where do you think that satalite radio comes from or how about your GPS. If ya can not see it, I am n ot sure how to help you. I bet you realy like the microwave don't you!
Flasher Gordon

That's not outer space; the satellites are merely a practical extension of aviation. It is sneaky and dishonest to pick a useful example to justify silly, childish, and unprofitable wandering through the universe, or even through the too-distant solar system. Let Hollywood have this neurotic escapism; maybe useless and sexually unattractive astronomers can pick up slutty starlets when they become "scientific" advisers on the movie sets.
Where do you think the tech for the usefull devices came from dumb ass ! Not sneaky and dishonest. You have zero vision what so ever!
 
The list of civilian benefits from Military R&D would be endless
But directly using the same money to fund R&D in healthcare, communications, energy, transportation would help mankind more.

R&D in healthcare and those other areas is the same whether the intent was to benefit the military or some other portion of mankind. Don't forget that soldiers and sailors are as much a part of mankind as civilians.
No shit

If you didn't need reminding why do you say that it's possible to fund healthcare for one group of people without benefiting everyone?
Because I never said that

You didn't say: "But directly using the same money to fund R&D in healthcare,..."?
What did you mean instead?

It means that R&D money spent directly on healthcare is more efficient than peripheral benefits from NASA R&D

That's what I thought you were saying and I'm saying that you are very wrong. The military has led the way in healthcare R&D for decades.
 
I have no objection to space travel

Only manned space travel

Why?


Why?
Because R2D2 is a better option than Buck Rogers

R2D2 does not need oxygen, does not need food, does not require space to move around to keep from going crazy, does not need to be entertained, does not have a sex drive

If R2D2 gets smashed, nobody cares
If astronauts get killed, we take it personally


Human beings have a spirit. That spirit drives us to explore and experience different things. All those involved in space exploration know the risk, commitment, and sacrifice involved, yet they still line up for the opportunity. It’s simple human nature. I guess then you are not in the camp that the colonization of space is in our future. Because if you do think we should look to live off this earth, humans, not robots will have to travel thru space.


I think colonization of other planets is a death trap
They will be dependent on a long supply line to earth

For what it costs to send a manned mission to Mars, we could sent hundreds of rovers that will explore the surface for years.

Even our military is moving towards drones and droids to do the more dangerous missions

While we glamorize space travel, it is mindlessly boring. We are talking hundreds or thousands of years to reach another habitable solar system. It is a mission best served by a robot or a red Tesla sports car


Wow, space travel is boring? Well I’ve heard all I need to from you on the matter. Btw- I don’t support space travel for the purpose of colonizing other planets.


Seems like torture to me

Months and years (lifetimes) confined in a small space. No fresh air, no sunlight
The view, while it would be spectacular at first, would quickly become tedious as you look at the same view day after day
 

If you didn't need reminding why do you say that it's possible to fund healthcare for one group of people without benefiting everyone?
Because I never said that

You didn't say: "But directly using the same money to fund R&D in healthcare,..."?
What did you mean instead?

It means that R&D money spent directly on healthcare is more efficient than peripheral benefits from NASA R&D

That's what I thought you were saying and I'm saying that you are very wrong. The military has led the way in healthcare R&D for decades.

Very true
But they conduct healthcare specific R&D
NASA doesn't
 
You can’t be serious? Do you understand the nature of man to learn, explore and discover. Man has always dared to reach new frontiers. Early biking explorers sailed west to see what was there.

But if you deaf and blind to all that, then here is your fucking list of things that the space program has brought mankind. Choke on it.

NASA Technologies Benefiting Society Health and Medicine
Robotics Offer Newfound Surgical Capabilities ................................................................................... 46 In-Line Filtration Improves Hygiene and Reduces Expense.................................................................. 48 LED Device Illuminates New Path to Healing..................................................................................... 50 Polymer Coats Leads on Implantable Medical Device .......................................................................... 52 Lockable Knee Brace Speeds Rehabilitation ......................................................................................... 54 Robotic Joints Support Horses and Humans........................................................................................ 56 Photorefraction Screens Millions for Vision Disorders ......................................................................... 58 Periodontal Probe Improves Exams, Alleviates Pain ............................................................................. 60 Magnetic Separator Enhances Treatment Possibilities .......................................................................... 62
Transportation
Lithium Battery Power Delivers Electric Vehicles to Market ................................................................ 66 Advanced Control System Increases Helicopter Safety ......................................................................... 68 Aerodynamics Research Revolutionizes Truck Design.......................................................................... 70 Engineering Models Ease and Speed Prototyping ................................................................................. 74 Software Performs Complex Design Analysis....................................................................................... 76
Public Safety
Space Suit Technologies Protect Deep-Sea Divers ................................................................................ 80 Fiber Optic Sensing Monitors Strain and Reduces Costs...................................................................... 82 Polymer Fabric Protects Firefighters, Military, and Civilians ................................................................ 84 Advanced X-Ray Sources Ensure Safe Environments............................................................................ 86
Consumer, Home, and Recreation
Wireless Fluid-Level Measurement System Equips Boat Owners .......................................................... 90 Mars Cameras Make Panoramic Photography a Snap........................................................................... 92 Experiments Advance Gardening at Home and in Space ...................................................................... 94 Space Age Swimsuit Reduces Drag, Breaks Records ............................................................................. 96 Immersive Photography Renders 360° Views ....................................................................................... 98 Historic Partnership Captures Our Imagination ................................................................................ 100 Outboard Motor Maximizes Power and Dependability ...................................................................... 104 Space Research Fortifies Nutrition Worldwide................................................................................... 106 Aerogels Insulate Missions and Consumer Products ........................................................................... 108

Environmental and Agricultural Resources
Computer Model Locates Environmental Hazards..............................................................................112 Battery Technology Stores Clean Energy ............................................................................................ 114 Robots Explore the Farthest Reaches of Earth and Space.....................................................................116 Portable Nanomesh Creates Safer Drinking Water..............................................................................118 Innovative Stemless Valve Eliminates Emissions ................................................................................. 120 Web-Based Mapping Puts the World at Your Fingertips.....................................................................122
Computer Technology
Program Assists Satellite Designers .....................................................................................................126 Water-Based Coating Simplifies Circuit Board Manufacturing ........................................................... 127 Software Schedules Missions, Aids Project Management ..................................................................... 128 Software Analyzes Complex Systems in Real Time..............................................................................130 Wireless Sensor Network Handles Image Data....................................................................................132 Virtual Reality System Offers a Wide Perspective................................................................................134 Software Simulates Sight: Flat Panel Mura Detection ......................................................................... 136 Inductive System Monitors Tasks ....................................................................................................... 138 Mars Mapping Technology Brings Main Street to Life........................................................................140 Intelligent Memory Module Overcomes Harsh Environments ............................................................ 142 Integrated Circuit Chip Improves Network Efficiency ........................................................................ 144
Industrial Productivity
Novel Process Revolutionizes Welding Industry..................................................................................148 Sensors Increase Productivity in Harsh Environments.........................................................................150 Portable Device Analyzes Rocks and Minerals.....................................................................................152 NASA Design Strengthens Welds ....................................................................................................... 154 Polyimide Boosts High-Temperature Performance ............................................................................. 156 NASA Innovation Builds Better Nanotubes...................
This dopey post was refuted on page 1. Try reading the thread before you post.
 


Why?
Because R2D2 is a better option than Buck Rogers

R2D2 does not need oxygen, does not need food, does not require space to move around to keep from going crazy, does not need to be entertained, does not have a sex drive

If R2D2 gets smashed, nobody cares
If astronauts get killed, we take it personally


Human beings have a spirit. That spirit drives us to explore and experience different things. All those involved in space exploration know the risk, commitment, and sacrifice involved, yet they still line up for the opportunity. It’s simple human nature. I guess then you are not in the camp that the colonization of space is in our future. Because if you do think we should look to live off this earth, humans, not robots will have to travel thru space.


I think colonization of other planets is a death trap
They will be dependent on a long supply line to earth

For what it costs to send a manned mission to Mars, we could sent hundreds of rovers that will explore the surface for years.

Even our military is moving towards drones and droids to do the more dangerous missions

While we glamorize space travel, it is mindlessly boring. We are talking hundreds or thousands of years to reach another habitable solar system. It is a mission best served by a robot or a red Tesla sports car


Wow, space travel is boring? Well I’ve heard all I need to from you on the matter. Btw- I don’t support space travel for the purpose of colonizing other planets.


Seems like torture to me

Months and years (lifetimes) confined in a small space. No fresh air, no sunlight
The view, while it would be spectacular at first, would quickly become tedious as you look at the same view day after day


Granted, it’s not for everyone.
 
Human beings have a spirit. That spirit drives us to explore and experience different things. All those involved in space exploration know the risk, commitment, and sacrifice involved, yet they still line up for the opportunity. It’s simple human nature. I guess then you are not in the camp that the colonization of space is in our future. Because if you do think we should look to live off this earth, humans, not robots will have to travel thru space.
What need is there to "look to live off this earth" Sounds ridiculous to me.

As for spirit, lots of things could have "spirit" attached to them. How about helping homeless animals, like the Humane Society and ASPCA are constantly begging for money for ? That's just one example out of thousands.
 


Why?
Because R2D2 is a better option than Buck Rogers

R2D2 does not need oxygen, does not need food, does not require space to move around to keep from going crazy, does not need to be entertained, does not have a sex drive

If R2D2 gets smashed, nobody cares
If astronauts get killed, we take it personally


Human beings have a spirit. That spirit drives us to explore and experience different things. All those involved in space exploration know the risk, commitment, and sacrifice involved, yet they still line up for the opportunity. It’s simple human nature. I guess then you are not in the camp that the colonization of space is in our future. Because if you do think we should look to live off this earth, humans, not robots will have to travel thru space.


I think colonization of other planets is a death trap
They will be dependent on a long supply line to earth

For what it costs to send a manned mission to Mars, we could sent hundreds of rovers that will explore the surface for years.

Even our military is moving towards drones and droids to do the more dangerous missions

While we glamorize space travel, it is mindlessly boring. We are talking hundreds or thousands of years to reach another habitable solar system. It is a mission best served by a robot or a red Tesla sports car


Wow, space travel is boring? Well I’ve heard all I need to from you on the matter. Btw- I don’t support space travel for the purpose of colonizing other planets.


Seems like torture to me

Months and years (lifetimes) confined in a small space. No fresh air, no sunlight
The view, while it would be spectacular at first, would quickly become tedious as you look at the same view day after day

Doesn't really sound much different than your life on USMB.
 
Human beings have a spirit. That spirit drives us to explore and experience different things. All those involved in space exploration know the risk, commitment, and sacrifice involved, yet they still line up for the opportunity. It’s simple human nature. I guess then you are not in the camp that the colonization of space is in our future. Because if you do think we should look to live off this earth, humans, not robots will have to travel thru space.
What need is there to "look to live off this earth" Sounds ridiculous to me.

As for spirit, lots of things could have "spirit" attached to them. How about helping homeless animals, like the Humane Society and ASPCA are constantly begging for money for ? That's just one example out of thousands.






And we are going to have a 40 meter wide asteroid pass within 45,000 miles of us. Just imagine what would happen if that were to hit. Wouldn't it be better to actually prevent one of those landing on someones head? It was discovered just a few days ago, and is bigger than the one that did this.....

 
Why?
Because R2D2 is a better option than Buck Rogers

R2D2 does not need oxygen, does not need food, does not require space to move around to keep from going crazy, does not need to be entertained, does not have a sex drive

If R2D2 gets smashed, nobody cares
If astronauts get killed, we take it personally

Human beings have a spirit. That spirit drives us to explore and experience different things. All those involved in space exploration know the risk, commitment, and sacrifice involved, yet they still line up for the opportunity. It’s simple human nature. I guess then you are not in the camp that the colonization of space is in our future. Because if you do think we should look to live off this earth, humans, not robots will have to travel thru space.

I think colonization of other planets is a death trap
They will be dependent on a long supply line to earth

For what it costs to send a manned mission to Mars, we could sent hundreds of rovers that will explore the surface for years.

Even our military is moving towards drones and droids to do the more dangerous missions

While we glamorize space travel, it is mindlessly boring. We are talking hundreds or thousands of years to reach another habitable solar system. It is a mission best served by a robot or a red Tesla sports car

Wow, space travel is boring? Well I’ve heard all I need to from you on the matter. Btw- I don’t support space travel for the purpose of colonizing other planets.

Seems like torture to me

Months and years (lifetimes) confined in a small space. No fresh air, no sunlight
The view, while it would be spectacular at first, would quickly become tedious as you look at the same view day after day
Doesn't really sound much different than your life on USMB.
I am a world renowned and award winning poster
 
Human beings have a spirit. That spirit drives us to explore and experience different things. All those involved in space exploration know the risk, commitment, and sacrifice involved, yet they still line up for the opportunity. It’s simple human nature. I guess then you are not in the camp that the colonization of space is in our future. Because if you do think we should look to live off this earth, humans, not robots will have to travel thru space.

I think colonization of other planets is a death trap
They will be dependent on a long supply line to earth

For what it costs to send a manned mission to Mars, we could sent hundreds of rovers that will explore the surface for years.

Even our military is moving towards drones and droids to do the more dangerous missions

While we glamorize space travel, it is mindlessly boring. We are talking hundreds or thousands of years to reach another habitable solar system. It is a mission best served by a robot or a red Tesla sports car

Wow, space travel is boring? Well I’ve heard all I need to from you on the matter. Btw- I don’t support space travel for the purpose of colonizing other planets.

Seems like torture to me

Months and years (lifetimes) confined in a small space. No fresh air, no sunlight
The view, while it would be spectacular at first, would quickly become tedious as you look at the same view day after day
Doesn't really sound much different than your life on USMB.
I am a world renowned and award winning poster
What a coincidence...
So am I.:rolleyes:
 
I have always been an opponent of sending rockets into space, especially when tax $$ are being used. I still just don't see the point,or benefit to mankind.

Can anyne cite anything worthwhile that came from the trip to the moon, that coudn't have been obtained anyway, without that space travel ? Or from any of the space endeavours since then ?

I can think of 2 results from these >> 17 dead astronauts, and Billions of $$$ wasted.

View attachment 175611 View attachment 175612
images





Simple, this planet is way to exposed to asteroids that can wipe out civilization, or all life depending on the size of it. Space travel, and more importantly the conquering of space, will allow mankind to survive in the event of a asteroid strike. With enough time, we can prevent the hit, but only if we have a viable space program.

That is why it is proper for tax dollars to be spent on it. The very survival of mankind depends on it.
I forgot about that reason. Even if all we had was a simple space station near to earth where humans could survive an asteroid or nuclear war. How long would we need to give the planet before it was safe to go back?

Or let’s say we colonized mars. We’d have back up people. These wouldn’t be rich people. They might be prisoners. Like australians





Depending on the size of the asteroid it could be decades before the planet was habitable again. Most likely it would only be a few years, but a few years of nuclear winter type weather and most life is toast. Far better to prevent the hit in the first place.
Of course. And we may not be able to last a decade in space.

I think the earth would rebound. We would have to eat greens cockroaches deep sea fish and rats




Of course the Earth would rebound. But would there be advanced life on it afterwards? That is the question.
I think the problem here is that most people simply cannot comprehend the amount of energy in an incoming impactor. Even a small one, say a kilometer in diameter, would know back civilization for at least a century. And the majority of humans presently alive would be dead within two years of impact. Especially were it an ocean hit, as it would most likely be. A relitively minor event, Tamobora, resulted in starvation on most of the continents in 1816. A minor impactor as described would be many orders of magnitudes of a greater event than Tambora.
 
Omg!

1. The things we learn
2. This planet won’t last forever. Are you saying we are stuck here? Doomed the next time a meteor comes or when Kim jung snaps? Or when life can no longer survive we’re done?
3. scientist believe we’d already be on mars if we never fought ww1 ww2 Korea Vietnam Iraq and Afghanistan and instead sunk the money into space travel. Do you know all the resources on mars? Or that the meteor belt is closer to mars.

It’s funny you think of space as the waste of time but not military. That not thinking long term

Personally? I believe that there is a secret "break away civilization" space program that has used back engineered alien technology starting back even before Roswell . There has been too many advances in technology (being that I work in electronics) that leads me to believe otherwise. NASA was created to siphon off money for the Groom Lake/Area 51 projects.........IMHO. They have IC chips now that can fit inside the dimple of a golf ball that can power a laptop computer. I worked on printed circuit boards for years going from single layer "through put" boards to working on multi-layered circuit boards with transistors, caps, resistors and ICs (integrated circuits) that were so small that it required a lighted magnifying glass to remove them and soon it became cheaper to trash PCBs than spend the time to repair them.

Due to my reading and my researching, the military industrial complex is anywhere from 50 to 100 years ahead of what we are allowed to have or know about. When technology becomes obsolete, they release it to their corporate entities for profit because they no longer need it because of advanced technology. It may sound crazy but I stand by what I say being that I have worked in electronics for over 30 years.
I hope so. It doesn’t matter to me if only the richest survive this planet. I’ll be long gone and you can’t save everyone. We all got to die sometime. As long as the human species lives on


Perhaps, but I would rather have someone like you representing humanity than the rich POS that sold us out for the "golden ticket".
Thanks. But whoever carries the torch is going to have to work and be smart. And that money ain’t gonna do them any good anymore.

I would love to start over again. Half day fridays, free healthcare, retire at 50, different prison system designed to reform, higher minimum wage cap on greed, work to live not live to work, only hunting guns, no organized religion and go green!





Good luck with that. The problem with "sustainable" living, is in the event of a disaster, you die. The whole point about growing and building more than you need, is so that some of it survives whatever disaster happens. History is filled with failed sustainable civilizations.
On the contrary, history is filled with civilizations that over and ill used their environments, and when the environment collapsed, so did the civilization. Read Jared Diamonds":Collapse"
 
Why stay in one place when we could explore the other 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of everything else? Limiting ourselves is extremely stupid considering there's probably trillions of planets and unlimited resources for us to get our hands on.

Problem is

We can't get our hands on it. Reaching those worlds could take a thousand years, We would never see the benefit
With present technology and knowledge. One hundred years from now? My maternal grandfather was born in 1888. He was sixteen what the Wright Brothers made their first flight, and he lived to see men walk on the moon. When he was born, the horse was the primary land transportation, with steam trains next. Sailing ships were the primary sea transportation. And the rate of change and progress is far faster today. What men will be able to do in 2118 we cannot even comprehend now.
 
Why stay in one place when we could explore the other 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of everything else? Limiting ourselves is extremely stupid considering there's probably trillions of planets and unlimited resources for us to get our hands on.

Problem is

We can't get our hands on it. Reaching those worlds could take a thousand years, We would never see the benefit
With present technology and knowledge. One hundred years from now? My maternal grandfather was born in 1888. He was sixteen what the Wright Brothers made their first flight, and he lived to see men walk on the moon. When he was born, the horse was the primary land transportation, with steam trains next. Sailing ships were the primary sea transportation. And the rate of change and progress is far faster today. What men will be able to do in 2118 we cannot even comprehend now.
Problem is immense distance
We are talking light years.......hundreds of light years to reach habitable planets
Einstein has stated travel at the speed of light is not possible. Particle accelerators have reached near light speeds but those particles expand and generate immense heat
Not a helpful trait for a living organism
 
Problem is immense distance
We are talking light years.......hundreds of light years to reach habitable planets
Einstein has stated travel at the speed of light is not possible. Particle accelerators have reached near light speeds but those particles expand and generate immense heat
Not a helpful trait for a living organism

I like it when a cowboy talks about Einstein

Cowboy.JPG
 
Simple, this planet is way to exposed to asteroids that can wipe out civilization, or all life depending on the size of it. Space travel, and more importantly the conquering of space, will allow mankind to survive in the event of a asteroid strike. With enough time, we can prevent the hit, but only if we have a viable space program.

That is why it is proper for tax dollars to be spent on it. The very survival of mankind depends on it.
I forgot about that reason. Even if all we had was a simple space station near to earth where humans could survive an asteroid or nuclear war. How long would we need to give the planet before it was safe to go back?

Or let’s say we colonized mars. We’d have back up people. These wouldn’t be rich people. They might be prisoners. Like australians





Depending on the size of the asteroid it could be decades before the planet was habitable again. Most likely it would only be a few years, but a few years of nuclear winter type weather and most life is toast. Far better to prevent the hit in the first place.
Of course. And we may not be able to last a decade in space.

I think the earth would rebound. We would have to eat greens cockroaches deep sea fish and rats




Of course the Earth would rebound. But would there be advanced life on it afterwards? That is the question.
I think the problem here is that most people simply cannot comprehend the amount of energy in an incoming impactor. Even a small one, say a kilometer in diameter, would know back civilization for at least a century. And the majority of humans presently alive would be dead within two years of impact. Especially were it an ocean hit, as it would most likely be. A relitively minor event, Tamobora, resulted in starvation on most of the continents in 1816. A minor impactor as described would be many orders of magnitudes of a greater event than Tambora.
Hard to feel sorry for us since we’ve caused so many other species to go extinct.

If everything else living could vote the human species extinct almost all animals would vote us extinct. No question about it. Only cats and dogs would vote to keep us around
 
Why stay in one place when we could explore the other 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of everything else? Limiting ourselves is extremely stupid considering there's probably trillions of planets and unlimited resources for us to get our hands on.

Problem is

We can't get our hands on it. Reaching those worlds could take a thousand years, We would never see the benefit
With present technology and knowledge. One hundred years from now? My maternal grandfather was born in 1888. He was sixteen what the Wright Brothers made their first flight, and he lived to see men walk on the moon. When he was born, the horse was the primary land transportation, with steam trains next. Sailing ships were the primary sea transportation. And the rate of change and progress is far faster today. What men will be able to do in 2118 we cannot even comprehend now.
Problem is immense distance
We are talking light years.......hundreds of light years to reach habitable planets
Einstein has stated travel at the speed of light is not possible. Particle accelerators have reached near light speeds but those particles expand and generate immense heat
Not a helpful trait for a living organism







Just because Einstein said it, doesn't make it so. In point of fact he didn't like teleportation either, but we have figured out how to do it. Yes, the distances are vast. So what. A mere hundred years ago it took weeks to travel distance we now cover in hours. Technology will do that for you....
 
Simple, this planet is way to exposed to asteroids that can wipe out civilization, or all life depending on the size of it. Space travel, and more importantly the conquering of space, will allow mankind to survive in the event of a asteroid strike. With enough time, we can prevent the hit, but only if we have a viable space program.

That is why it is proper for tax dollars to be spent on it. The very survival of mankind depends on it.
I forgot about that reason. Even if all we had was a simple space station near to earth where humans could survive an asteroid or nuclear war. How long would we need to give the planet before it was safe to go back?

Or let’s say we colonized mars. We’d have back up people. These wouldn’t be rich people. They might be prisoners. Like australians





Depending on the size of the asteroid it could be decades before the planet was habitable again. Most likely it would only be a few years, but a few years of nuclear winter type weather and most life is toast. Far better to prevent the hit in the first place.
Of course. And we may not be able to last a decade in space.

I think the earth would rebound. We would have to eat greens cockroaches deep sea fish and rats




Of course the Earth would rebound. But would there be advanced life on it afterwards? That is the question.
I think the problem here is that most people simply cannot comprehend the amount of energy in an incoming impactor. Even a small one, say a kilometer in diameter, would know back civilization for at least a century. And the majority of humans presently alive would be dead within two years of impact. Especially were it an ocean hit, as it would most likely be. A relitively minor event, Tamobora, resulted in starvation on most of the continents in 1816. A minor impactor as described would be many orders of magnitudes of a greater event than Tambora.






I agree. Given our current state of technology, were we to spot an incoming asteroid we would need at least three years to have a chance to move it off of the impact trajectory. The only way we have a chance to do that is to vastly increase our space program. It truly is a matter of life or death. Anybody who doesn't realize that very simple fact, is fundamentally stupid.
 

Forum List

Back
Top