Why I Could Never Be GOP or Libertarian

[sealybobo]

Most RW libertarians I talk to on the internet have so many conflicting opinions it makes my head hurt. One minute they are all about personal freedom and responsibility for themselves and the next they seem to have fascist opinions on dealing with social problems such as poverty, immigration and crime. I just cannot compartmentalize my opinions like that, for them all men are not created equal and American exceptionalism forgives all sins.

American exceptionalism??? You clearly have some wild misconceptions about Libertarians. But then I guess that's the theme of the thread.

Bring back manufacturing jobs they say. These are the jobs that built the middle class in this country, they say. Save the middle class. But a recent report shows that a number of current mfg workers make just a bit more than the minimum wage. Many people are finding jobs through a temp agency and for most of those people, gov. assistance programs help fill the gap. Subsidized housing, energy assistance, food stamps and medical.

A third of families of non-supervising manufacturing workers are enrolled in at least one public safety net program.

These are the jobs that used to be a pathway into the middle class for people who didn't have a college education. If we go back 20 years, mfg jobs paid better than most. Now 1 in 4 are paid less than $11.91 an hour. 34 percent of these manufacturing production workers in the U.S, themselves rely on a public assistance program, or one of their family members is enrolled.

And the problem is much worse when we look at the growing number who are working through temporary staffing agencies. In 1989, 1 percent of manufacturing production workers were hired through a temp agency. Now it's is 1 out of 11. Soon it will be 40%

If you are a direct hire the median wage is a little over $15 an hour. But those who are hired through staffing agencies, the median wage is $10.88 an hour. As manufacturing jobs came back following the Great Recession, the jobs are more likely not to be union. They're paying lower wages. And that has been that ongoing trend.

Many Manufacturing Workers Don't Make Enough To Keep Off Public Assistance

 

[dblack]

Most RW libertarians I talk to on the internet have so many conflicting opinions it makes my head hurt. One minute they are all about personal freedom and responsibility for themselves and the next they seem to have fascist opinions on dealing with social problems such as poverty, immigration and crime. I just cannot compartmentalize my opinions like that, for them all men are not created equal and American exceptionalism forgives all sins.

American exceptionalism??? You clearly have some wild misconceptions about Libertarians. But then I guess that's the theme of the thread.

Bring back manufacturing jobs they say. These are the jobs that built the middle class in this country, they say. Save the middle class. But a recent report shows that a number of current mfg workers make just a bit more than the minimum wage. Many people are finding jobs through a temp agency and for most of those people, gov. assistance programs help fill the gap. Subsidized housing, energy assistance, food stamps and medical.

A third of families of non-supervising manufacturing workers are enrolled in at least one public safety net program.

These are the jobs that used to be a pathway into the middle class for people who didn't have a college education. If we go back 20 years, mfg jobs paid better than most. Now 1 in 4 are paid less than $11.91 an hour. 34 percent of these manufacturing production workers in the U.S, themselves rely on a public assistance program, or one of their family members is enrolled.

And the problem is much worse when we look at the growing number who are working through temporary staffing agencies. In 1989, 1 percent of manufacturing production workers were hired through a temp agency. Now it's is 1 out of 11. Soon it will be 40%

If you are a direct hire the median wage is a little over $15 an hour. But those who are hired through staffing agencies, the median wage is $10.88 an hour. As manufacturing jobs came back following the Great Recession, the jobs are more likely not to be union. They're paying lower wages. And that has been that ongoing trend.

Many Manufacturing Workers Don't Make Enough To Keep Off Public Assistance

What does any of this have to do with the topic?

 

[sealybobo]

Most RW libertarians I talk to on the internet have so many conflicting opinions it makes my head hurt. One minute they are all about personal freedom and responsibility for themselves and the next they seem to have fascist opinions on dealing with social problems such as poverty, immigration and crime. I just cannot compartmentalize my opinions like that, for them all men are not created equal and American exceptionalism forgives all sins.

American exceptionalism??? You clearly have some wild misconceptions about Libertarians. But then I guess that's the theme of the thread.

Bring back manufacturing jobs they say. These are the jobs that built the middle class in this country, they say. Save the middle class. But a recent report shows that a number of current mfg workers make just a bit more than the minimum wage. Many people are finding jobs through a temp agency and for most of those people, gov. assistance programs help fill the gap. Subsidized housing, energy assistance, food stamps and medical.

A third of families of non-supervising manufacturing workers are enrolled in at least one public safety net program.

These are the jobs that used to be a pathway into the middle class for people who didn't have a college education. If we go back 20 years, mfg jobs paid better than most. Now 1 in 4 are paid less than $11.91 an hour. 34 percent of these manufacturing production workers in the U.S, themselves rely on a public assistance program, or one of their family members is enrolled.

And the problem is much worse when we look at the growing number who are working through temporary staffing agencies. In 1989, 1 percent of manufacturing production workers were hired through a temp agency. Now it's is 1 out of 11. Soon it will be 40%

If you are a direct hire the median wage is a little over $15 an hour. But those who are hired through staffing agencies, the median wage is $10.88 an hour. As manufacturing jobs came back following the Great Recession, the jobs are more likely not to be union. They're paying lower wages. And that has been that ongoing trend.

Many Manufacturing Workers Don't Make Enough To Keep Off Public Assistance

What does any of this have to do with the topic?

These are reasons I could never vote GOP or Libertarian. Do you see what is happening to the American Middle Class? It is the GOP who've done this to us. Have the Democrats gone along, sure. But I can show you how back when NAFTA was being created by Republicans, Labor wasn't happy. But NAFTA was going to happen one way or the other, so Clinton signed it. He probably gave them something in return for something. That is how things work in Washington you know.

Anyways, so Republicans have no problem with uneducated blue collar workers making more. They don't care. Why? Because the only thing they care about is maximizing shareholder profits.

We've all heard Republicans solution for the uneducated poor and middle class. Their solution? Start a business or go back to school. In other words, they have no solution to help the poor or lower middle class. If you are poor or middle class, expect to get shit on. And this is going to drag down the entire middle class.

I'm glad to hear Trump and some of you Republicans talking about bringing jobs home and tariffs but I just don't believe you. So, this is another reason I'll never vote GOP or Libertarian.

In the not so distant future 40% of workers will be temps or sub contractors. And then you'll blame Obama but never the corporations who plotted this out in the 1960's.

 

[dblack]

Most RW libertarians I talk to on the internet have so many conflicting opinions it makes my head hurt. One minute they are all about personal freedom and responsibility for themselves and the next they seem to have fascist opinions on dealing with social problems such as poverty, immigration and crime. I just cannot compartmentalize my opinions like that, for them all men are not created equal and American exceptionalism forgives all sins.

American exceptionalism??? You clearly have some wild misconceptions about Libertarians. But then I guess that's the theme of the thread.

Bring back manufacturing jobs they say. These are the jobs that built the middle class in this country, they say. Save the middle class. But a recent report shows that a number of current mfg workers make just a bit more than the minimum wage. Many people are finding jobs through a temp agency and for most of those people, gov. assistance programs help fill the gap. Subsidized housing, energy assistance, food stamps and medical.

A third of families of non-supervising manufacturing workers are enrolled in at least one public safety net program.

These are the jobs that used to be a pathway into the middle class for people who didn't have a college education. If we go back 20 years, mfg jobs paid better than most. Now 1 in 4 are paid less than $11.91 an hour. 34 percent of these manufacturing production workers in the U.S, themselves rely on a public assistance program, or one of their family members is enrolled.

And the problem is much worse when we look at the growing number who are working through temporary staffing agencies. In 1989, 1 percent of manufacturing production workers were hired through a temp agency. Now it's is 1 out of 11. Soon it will be 40%

If you are a direct hire the median wage is a little over $15 an hour. But those who are hired through staffing agencies, the median wage is $10.88 an hour. As manufacturing jobs came back following the Great Recession, the jobs are more likely not to be union. They're paying lower wages. And that has been that ongoing trend.

Many Manufacturing Workers Don't Make Enough To Keep Off Public Assistance

What does any of this have to do with the topic?

These are reasons I could never vote GOP or Libertarian. Do you see what is happening to the American Middle Class? It is the GOP who've done this to us. Have the Democrats gone along, sure. But I can show you how back when NAFTA was being created by Republicans, Labor wasn't happy. But NAFTA was going to happen one way or the other, so Clinton signed it. He probably gave them something in return for something. That is how things work in Washington you know.

Anyways, so Republicans have no problem with uneducated blue collar workers making more. They don't care. Why? Because the only thing they care about is maximizing shareholder profits.

We've all heard Republicans solution for the uneducated poor and middle class. Their solution? Start a business or go back to school. In other words, they have no solution to help the poor or lower middle class. If you are poor or middle class, expect to get shit on. And this is going to drag down the entire middle class.

I'm glad to hear Trump and some of you Republicans talking about bringing jobs home and tariffs but I just don't believe you. So, this is another reason I'll never vote GOP or Libertarian.

In the not so distant future 40% of workers will be temps or sub contractors. And then you'll blame Obama but never the corporations who plotted this out in the 1960's.

That's funny. You seem to think of Libertarians and Republicans as the same thing. I guess that's fair, as I see Democrats and Republicans, for the most part, as the same thing.

Anyway, regarding the preoccupation with class - I never felt it was the government's responsibility to maintain the integrity of the class hierarchy. Seems liberals were opposed to that too, once-upon-a-time.

 

[dblack]

I'm glad to hear Trump and some of you Republicans talking about ....

You don't think I'm a Republican, do you?

 

[sealybobo]

Most RW libertarians I talk to on the internet have so many conflicting opinions it makes my head hurt. One minute they are all about personal freedom and responsibility for themselves and the next they seem to have fascist opinions on dealing with social problems such as poverty, immigration and crime. I just cannot compartmentalize my opinions like that, for them all men are not created equal and American exceptionalism forgives all sins.

American exceptionalism??? You clearly have some wild misconceptions about Libertarians. But then I guess that's the theme of the thread.

Bring back manufacturing jobs they say. These are the jobs that built the middle class in this country, they say. Save the middle class. But a recent report shows that a number of current mfg workers make just a bit more than the minimum wage. Many people are finding jobs through a temp agency and for most of those people, gov. assistance programs help fill the gap. Subsidized housing, energy assistance, food stamps and medical.

A third of families of non-supervising manufacturing workers are enrolled in at least one public safety net program.

These are the jobs that used to be a pathway into the middle class for people who didn't have a college education. If we go back 20 years, mfg jobs paid better than most. Now 1 in 4 are paid less than $11.91 an hour. 34 percent of these manufacturing production workers in the U.S, themselves rely on a public assistance program, or one of their family members is enrolled.

And the problem is much worse when we look at the growing number who are working through temporary staffing agencies. In 1989, 1 percent of manufacturing production workers were hired through a temp agency. Now it's is 1 out of 11. Soon it will be 40%

If you are a direct hire the median wage is a little over $15 an hour. But those who are hired through staffing agencies, the median wage is $10.88 an hour. As manufacturing jobs came back following the Great Recession, the jobs are more likely not to be union. They're paying lower wages. And that has been that ongoing trend.

Many Manufacturing Workers Don't Make Enough To Keep Off Public Assistance

What does any of this have to do with the topic?

It's another example/reason I could never vote GOP or libertarians

 

[sealybobo]

My cousin was a Republican small business owner. He was a fucking tow truck driver. What a dope thinking he belongs in the GOP but he's white and stupid so you can understand...

Anyways, I just found out he got hurt and is now on Medicaid/disability. Drawing that government check. He didn't like that program until he needed it.

They should give people who disagree with those benefits a $50 tax break to say they will never take benefits no matter what and when they come begging let them starve. Go to a charity or church

 

[sealybobo]

I'm glad to hear Trump and some of you Republicans talking about ....

You don't think I'm a Republican, do you?

What are you then?

Anyways, here is why I could never vote GOP or Libertarian.

When Republicans try to blame Bill Clinton for NAFTA, they are trying to pretend they aren’t the ones who pushed/push for unregulated free trade. Here is what we were saying about free trade in 2004. I challenge any Republican to show me one article from 2004 that shows they were for regulating free trade or tariffs.

Democracy - Not "The Free Market" - Will Save America's Middle Class

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is, "Stop government from defending workers and building a middle class, and let the corporations decide how much to pay for labor and how to trade." But that’s insane because corporations only care about 1 thing and that’s maximizing shareholder profits. Governments set the rules of the market. And, since our government is of, by, and for We The People, those rules have historically been set to first maximize the public good resulting from people doing business. If you want to play the game of business, we've said in the US since 1784 (when Tench Coxe got the first tariffs passed "to protect domestic industries") then you have to play in a way that both makes you money AND serves the public interest.

The "middle class" is not the natural result of "free trade." Those policies will produce a small but powerful wealthy class, a small "middle" mercantilist class, and a huge and terrified worker class which have traditionally been called "serfs." The middle class is a new invention of liberal democracies, the direct result of governments defining the rules of the game of business and when domestic industries are protected from overseas competition, a middle class will emerge. When government gives up these functions, the middle class vanishes and the rich get richer.

Conservatives complained about Smoot Hawley tariffs but the main result was that American businesses now had strong financial incentives to do business with other American companies, rather than bring in products made with cheaper foreign labor: Americans started trading with other Americans. It brought jobs back to America. Most of the Founders advocated and passed tariffs to protect domestic industries and workers. We've done it before, with tariffs, anti-trust legislation, and worker protections ranging from enforcing the rights of organized labor to restricting American companies' access to cheap foreign labor through visas and tariffs. The result was the production of something never before seen in history: a strong and vibrant middle class.

 

[Arizona Willie]

I'm glad to hear Trump and some of you Republicans talking about ....

You don't think I'm a Republican, do you?

What are you then?

Anyways, here is why I could never vote GOP or Libertarian.

When Republicans try to blame Bill Clinton for NAFTA, they are trying to pretend they aren’t the ones who pushed/push for unregulated free trade. Here is what we were saying about free trade in 2004. I challenge any Republican to show me one article from 2004 that shows they were for regulating free trade or tariffs.

Democracy - Not "The Free Market" - Will Save America's Middle Class

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is, "Stop government from defending workers and building a middle class, and let the corporations decide how much to pay for labor and how to trade." But that’s insane because corporations only care about 1 thing and that’s maximizing shareholder profits. Governments set the rules of the market. And, since our government is of, by, and for We The People, those rules have historically been set to first maximize the public good resulting from people doing business. If you want to play the game of business, we've said in the US since 1784 (when Tench Coxe got the first tariffs passed "to protect domestic industries") then you have to play in a way that both makes you money AND serves the public interest.

The "middle class" is not the natural result of "free trade." Those policies will produce a small but powerful wealthy class, a small "middle" mercantilist class, and a huge and terrified worker class which have traditionally been called "serfs." The middle class is a new invention of liberal democracies, the direct result of governments defining the rules of the game of business and when domestic industries are protected from overseas competition, a middle class will emerge. When government gives up these functions, the middle class vanishes and the rich get richer.

Conservatives complained about Smoot Hawley tariffs but the main result was that American businesses now had strong financial incentives to do business with other American companies, rather than bring in products made with cheaper foreign labor: Americans started trading with other Americans. It brought jobs back to America. Most of the Founders advocated and passed tariffs to protect domestic industries and workers. We've done it before, with tariffs, anti-trust legislation, and worker protections ranging from enforcing the rights of organized labor to restricting American companies' access to cheap foreign labor through visas and tariffs. The result was the production of something never before seen in history: a strong and vibrant middle class.

========
What you wrote is all true ... but the problem is that REPUBLICANS don't give a crap about the middle class.

Their only concern is their own personal wealth.

Profit overrides people and country.

Small dollar Republicans ( people with a net worth under 1 million ) are not the same, necessarily, as the wealthy Republicans and the Corporations they own. They want to be big dollar Republicans but most of them still have some concience. Maybe not much but some.

But the 1%'ers have no concern for country or other people --- only their own extreme wealth even though they already have more money than they can spend in their lifetime.

There should be a maximum wealth beyond which people are not allowed to accumulate any more.

Maybe 5 billion dollars. Anything above that is taxed at 100%. That's enough money for them to live like kings just off of the interest.

 

[dblack]

I'm glad to hear Trump and some of you Republicans talking about ....

You don't think I'm a Republican, do you?

What are you then?

I usually vote Libertarian.

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

Again, I have no idea what this means, or what you think it proves.

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

I don't want government maintaining a class hierarchy.

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is. ....

What they're really saying is let the people decide, voluntarily, without mandates from government.

 

[sealybobo]

I'm glad to hear Trump and some of you Republicans talking about ....

You don't think I'm a Republican, do you?

What are you then?

Anyways, here is why I could never vote GOP or Libertarian.

When Republicans try to blame Bill Clinton for NAFTA, they are trying to pretend they aren’t the ones who pushed/push for unregulated free trade. Here is what we were saying about free trade in 2004. I challenge any Republican to show me one article from 2004 that shows they were for regulating free trade or tariffs.

Democracy - Not "The Free Market" - Will Save America's Middle Class

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is, "Stop government from defending workers and building a middle class, and let the corporations decide how much to pay for labor and how to trade." But that’s insane because corporations only care about 1 thing and that’s maximizing shareholder profits. Governments set the rules of the market. And, since our government is of, by, and for We The People, those rules have historically been set to first maximize the public good resulting from people doing business. If you want to play the game of business, we've said in the US since 1784 (when Tench Coxe got the first tariffs passed "to protect domestic industries") then you have to play in a way that both makes you money AND serves the public interest.

The "middle class" is not the natural result of "free trade." Those policies will produce a small but powerful wealthy class, a small "middle" mercantilist class, and a huge and terrified worker class which have traditionally been called "serfs." The middle class is a new invention of liberal democracies, the direct result of governments defining the rules of the game of business and when domestic industries are protected from overseas competition, a middle class will emerge. When government gives up these functions, the middle class vanishes and the rich get richer.

Conservatives complained about Smoot Hawley tariffs but the main result was that American businesses now had strong financial incentives to do business with other American companies, rather than bring in products made with cheaper foreign labor: Americans started trading with other Americans. It brought jobs back to America. Most of the Founders advocated and passed tariffs to protect domestic industries and workers. We've done it before, with tariffs, anti-trust legislation, and worker protections ranging from enforcing the rights of organized labor to restricting American companies' access to cheap foreign labor through visas and tariffs. The result was the production of something never before seen in history: a strong and vibrant middle class.

========
What you wrote is all true ... but the problem is that REPUBLICANS don't give a crap about the middle class.

Their only concern is their own personal wealth.

Profit overrides people and country.

Small dollar Republicans ( people with a net worth under 1 million ) are not the same, necessarily, as the wealthy Republicans and the Corporations they own. They want to be big dollar Republicans but most of them still have some concience. Maybe not much but some.

But the 1%'ers have no concern for country or other people --- only their own extreme wealth even though they already have more money than they can spend in their lifetime.

There should be a maximum wealth beyond which people are not allowed to accumulate any more.

Maybe 5 billion dollars. Anything above that is taxed at 100%. That's enough money for them to live like kings just off of the interest.

You sound like Thom Hartmann

How Rich is Too Rich For Democracy?

And you will see here Search Results that this all started in the 1970's. Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, Jack Walsh of GE. They broke the social contract with Americans and the only responsibility of a corporation is to maximize the profits of it's shareholders. I'm ok with that. That's what corporations do. But that's why they shouldn't be in charge. The government should. Corporations need to be regulated. Don't like the tax system in America, don't sell your shit here in America. Republicans think the corporations call all the shots. They do, but they shouldn't. But unfortunately, they do. And half of America approves of it. They don't think it will hurt them. They are wrong. And if it won't hurt them, how about their kids? Will their kids be "valued" by a corporation or will they pay an underpaid temp worker. I don't like the way America is headed either. But that doesn't mean I want Trump to be president. That man is a con man.

 

[sealybobo]

I'm glad to hear Trump and some of you Republicans talking about ....

You don't think I'm a Republican, do you?

What are you then?

I usually vote Libertarian.

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

Again, I have no idea what this means, or what you think it proves.

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

I don't want government maintaining a class hierarchy.

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is. ....

What they're really saying is let the people decide, voluntarily, without mandates from government.

Libertarians are retarded Republicans.

 

[dblack]

I'm glad to hear Trump and some of you Republicans talking about ....

You don't think I'm a Republican, do you?

What are you then?

I usually vote Libertarian.

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

Again, I have no idea what this means, or what you think it proves.

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

I don't want government maintaining a class hierarchy.

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is. ....

What they're really saying is let the people decide, voluntarily, without mandates from government.

Libertarians are retarded Republicans.

What a stunning rebuttal. I'm afraid you've demolished my entire argument with your wisdom and insight.

 

[sealybobo]

I'm glad to hear Trump and some of you Republicans talking about ....

You don't think I'm a Republican, do you?

What are you then?

I usually vote Libertarian.

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

Again, I have no idea what this means, or what you think it proves.

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

I don't want government maintaining a class hierarchy.

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is. ....

What they're really saying is let the people decide, voluntarily, without mandates from government.

Libertarians are retarded Republicans.

What a stunning rebuttal. I'm afraid you've demolished my entire argument with your wisdom and insight.

Well you thought not being a republican would score you some points with me but libertarians are anarchists. It's why you only get 1% of the vote.

Oh but keep in mind even though Libertarians aren't very popular, the GOP are pushing through a lot of your retarded ideas. Like no regulations. Like less taxes (on the rich). Free trade. Let the market decide. Anything goes. The solution to every problem is more deregulations. You guys are cra cra.

 

[dblack]

You don't think I'm a Republican, do you?

What are you then?

I usually vote Libertarian.

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

Again, I have no idea what this means, or what you think it proves.

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

I don't want government maintaining a class hierarchy.

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is. ....

What they're really saying is let the people decide, voluntarily, without mandates from government.

Libertarians are retarded Republicans.

What a stunning rebuttal. I'm afraid you've demolished my entire argument with your wisdom and insight.

Well you thought not being a republican would score you some points with me but libertarians are anarchists. It's why you only get 1% of the vote.

Heh... I have no interest in scoring points with you.

Oh but keep in mind even though Libertarians aren't very popular, the GOP are pushing through a lot of your retarded ideas. Like no regulations. Like less taxes (on the rich). Free trade. Let the market decide. Anything goes. The solution to every problem is more deregulations. You guys are cra cra.

Republicans love regulation, and the power it gives them. Their idea of "deregulation" is tweaking existing regulations to favor their lobbyists' requests. Just like Democrats like to impose new regulations to favor their lobbyists' requests.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

I'm glad to hear Trump and some of you Republicans talking about ....

You don't think I'm a Republican, do you?

What are you then?

I usually vote Libertarian.

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

Again, I have no idea what this means, or what you think it proves.

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

I don't want government maintaining a class hierarchy.

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is. ....

What they're really saying is let the people decide, voluntarily, without mandates from government.

Libertarians are retarded Republicans.

What a stunning rebuttal. I'm afraid you've demolished my entire argument with your wisdom and insight.

Yeah, right? What's left to say after that pearl of wisdom!

 

[sealybobo]

What are you then?

I usually vote Libertarian.

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

Again, I have no idea what this means, or what you think it proves.

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

I don't want government maintaining a class hierarchy.

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is. ....

What they're really saying is let the people decide, voluntarily, without mandates from government.

Libertarians are retarded Republicans.

What a stunning rebuttal. I'm afraid you've demolished my entire argument with your wisdom and insight.

Well you thought not being a republican would score you some points with me but libertarians are anarchists. It's why you only get 1% of the vote.

Heh... I have no interest in scoring points with you.

Oh but keep in mind even though Libertarians aren't very popular, the GOP are pushing through a lot of your retarded ideas. Like no regulations. Like less taxes (on the rich). Free trade. Let the market decide. Anything goes. The solution to every problem is more deregulations. You guys are cra cra.

Republicans love regulation, and the power it gives them. Their idea of "deregulation" is tweaking existing regulations to favor their lobbyists' requests. Just like Democrats like to impose new regulations to favor their lobbyists' requests.

Well sorry but no one cares what you libertarians think. Maybe you should listen more and care what the rest of us think. But what the rest of us think is that you are stupid wrong and/or nuts.

 

[sealybobo]

You don't think I'm a Republican, do you?

What are you then?

I usually vote Libertarian.

1. There is no such thing as a "free market."

Again, I have no idea what this means, or what you think it proves.

2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

I don't want government maintaining a class hierarchy.

The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is. ....

What they're really saying is let the people decide, voluntarily, without mandates from government.

Libertarians are retarded Republicans.

What a stunning rebuttal. I'm afraid you've demolished my entire argument with your wisdom and insight.

Yeah, right? What's left to say after that pearl of wisdom!

He's wrong?

 

[dblack]

I usually vote Libertarian.

Again, I have no idea what this means, or what you think it proves.

I don't want government maintaining a class hierarchy.

What they're really saying is let the people decide, voluntarily, without mandates from government.

Libertarians are retarded Republicans.

What a stunning rebuttal. I'm afraid you've demolished my entire argument with your wisdom and insight.

Well you thought not being a republican would score you some points with me but libertarians are anarchists. It's why you only get 1% of the vote.

Heh... I have no interest in scoring points with you.

Oh but keep in mind even though Libertarians aren't very popular, the GOP are pushing through a lot of your retarded ideas. Like no regulations. Like less taxes (on the rich). Free trade. Let the market decide. Anything goes. The solution to every problem is more deregulations. You guys are cra cra.

Republicans love regulation, and the power it gives them. Their idea of "deregulation" is tweaking existing regulations to favor their lobbyists' requests. Just like Democrats like to impose new regulations to favor their lobbyists' requests.

Well sorry but no one cares what you libertarians think. Maybe you should listen more and care what the rest of us think. But what the rest of us think is that you are stupid wrong and/or nuts.

Good answer, good answer!

 

[kaz]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

Yes, when I want money that I earned, I"m greedy. When you want money I earned, you're generous. Blah, blah, you're a thug who is having government commit armed robbery for you