Why I Could Never Be GOP or Libertarian

[sealybobo]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

 

[sealybobo]

I want to hear from middle class and poor Ron Paul supporters. I want to hear how they think they will benefit from an every man for himself society. From what I can tell his approach would produce a small upper class and the middle class will become the working poor.

People don't realize it was liberal labor laws, FDR New Deal, tariffs and unions that produced the huge middle class we enjoyed for the last 50 years. It wasn't unregulated free trade. Unregulated Free trade sent 7 million good paying jobs out of the country because we make too much. And Ron Paul wants to double down on the idea? He and Paul Ryan are no different. Bad for America. Not the top 1% but the rest of us, BAD.

 

[sealybobo]

Anyone who thinks they might like Ron Paul, read this:

Democracy - Not "The Free Market" - Will Save America's Middle Class

 

[dblack]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.


I disagree.

As a libertarian, I can only respond by pointing out that you have a lot of misconceptions about libertarians. There's a distinct difference between rejecting coercive government and rejecting community action. In my experience, libertarians believe in community spirit, charity, and helping their fellow man more sincerely that most modern liberals. They simply don't believe it needs to be forced on us via coercive government programs.

Frankly, I find the liberal point of view deeply cynical, based on the tacit assumption that without government forcing it on us, we will turn our backs on those in need. I've heard it said that pretty much everyone starts with the base assumption that everyone else is like them. So people who are kind, charitable and forgiving assume the world will be likewise. Those who are less so, fear a world where people are free to be who they are. I couldn't take that as a blanket condemnation, because I know liberals who I believe are genuinely good people, but it does give me pause. What are you all so worried about?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Libertarians also think that all of us "owning" something is completely impossible in practice, and in reality it always turns out that the government owns whatever it is.

 

[sealybobo]

We knew back in 2004 what the GOP were up to:

Scrooge & Marley, Inc. -- The True Conservative Agenda 06/18/04

The Robber Barons' Party 01/20/05

"Nobles Need Not Pay Taxes" 02/01/05

We saw the gap between the rich and poor were getting too wide:

How Rich is Too Rich For Democracy? 04/18/05

And us liberals know what the GOP are up to:

"You Can't Govern if You Don't Believe in Government" 09/26/05

People who want the truth and some interesting op ed's google Thom Hartmann Op Ed's and enjoy.

 

[dblack]

We knew back in 2004 what the GOP were up to:

Scrooge & Marley, Inc. -- The True Conservative Agenda 06/18/04

The Robber Barons' Party 01/20/05

"Nobles Need Not Pay Taxes" 02/01/05

We saw the gap between the rich and poor were getting too wide:

How Rich is Too Rich For Democracy? 04/18/05

And us liberals know what the GOP are up to:

"You Can't Govern if You Don't Believe in Government" 09/26/05

People who want the truth and some interesting op ed's google Thom Hartmann Op Ed's and enjoy.

???

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Why I couldn't care less......see post #1.

 

[sealybobo]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.


I disagree.

As a libertarian, I can only respond by pointing out that you have a lot of misconceptions about libertarians. There's a distinct difference between rejecting coercive government and rejecting community action. In my experience, libertarians believe in community spirit, charity, and helping their fellow man more sincerely that most modern liberals. They simply don't believe it needs to be forced on us via coercive government programs.

Frankly, I find the liberal point of view deeply cynical, based on the tacit assumption that without government forcing it on us, we will turn our backs on those in need. I've heard it said that pretty much everyone starts with the base assumption that everyone else is like them. So people who are kind, charitable and forgiving assume the world will be likewise. Those who are less so, fear a world where people are free to be who they are. I couldn't take that as a blanket condemnation, because I know liberals who I believe are genuinely good people, but it does give me pause. What are you all so worried about?

Fact is, since the GOP made all their cuts to government programs that help the poor and since they implimented their unregulated free trade, more people have slipped into poverty. And charities and religion are proving they are not capable of handling or solving the growing problem. This is what our government is for.

This was written in 2007. This is why I laugh when Republicans try to suggest that Obama is at fault for the mess we are in.

Roll Back the Reagan Tax Cuts | Common Dreams

Since Bush has been president:

•over 5 million people have slipped into poverty;
•nearly 7 million Americans have lost their health insurance;
•median household income has gone down by nearly $1,300;
•three million manufacturing jobs have been lost;
•three million American workers have lost their pensions;
•home foreclosures are now the highest on record;
•the personal savings rate is below zero - which hasn't happened since the great depression;
•the real earnings of college graduates have gone down by about 5% in the last few years;
•entry level wages for male and female high school graduates have fallen by over 3%;
•wages and salaries are now at the lowest share of GDP since 1929.

 

[occupied]

Most RW libertarians I talk to on the internet have so many conflicting opinions it makes my head hurt. One minute they are all about personal freedom and responsibility for themselves and the next they seem to have fascist opinions on dealing with social problems such as poverty, immigration and crime. I just cannot compartmentalize my opinions like that, for them all men are not created equal and American exceptionalism forgives all sins.

 

[sealybobo]

We knew back in 2004 what the GOP were up to:

Scrooge & Marley, Inc. -- The True Conservative Agenda 06/18/04

The Robber Barons' Party 01/20/05

"Nobles Need Not Pay Taxes" 02/01/05

We saw the gap between the rich and poor were getting too wide:

How Rich is Too Rich For Democracy? 04/18/05

And us liberals know what the GOP are up to:

"You Can't Govern if You Don't Believe in Government" 09/26/05

People who want the truth and some interesting op ed's google Thom Hartmann Op Ed's and enjoy.

???

oops

You can find any of these articles here:

Thom Hartmann's Op-Ed Pieces published on Common Dreams at www.commondreams.org

All great reads.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Most RW libertarians I talk to on the internet have so many conflicting opinions it makes my head hurt. One minute they are all about personal freedom and responsibility for themselves and the next they seem to have fascist opinions on dealing with social problems such as poverty, immigration and crime. I just cannot compartmentalize my opinions like that, for them all men are not created equal and American exceptionalism forgives all sins.

Apparently you don't know what the term fascist means.

 

[sealybobo]

Why I couldn't care less......see post #1.

You're probably so old and set in your ways old man.

 

[whitehall]

We knew back in 2004 what the GOP were up to:

Scrooge & Marley, Inc. -- The True Conservative Agenda 06/18/04

The Robber Barons' Party 01/20/05

"Nobles Need Not Pay Taxes" 02/01/05

We saw the gap between the rich and poor were getting too wide:

How Rich is Too Rich For Democracy? 04/18/05

And us liberals know what the GOP are up to:

"You Can't Govern if You Don't Believe in Government" 09/26/05

People who want the truth and some interesting op ed's google Thom Hartmann Op Ed's and enjoy.

Scrooge and Marley? Robber barons? The gap between rich and poor? Why not quote from Karl Marx, you know you want to. It's your last chance for a socialist revolution and Barry Obama don't seem to be doing that well.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Why I couldn't care less......see post #1.

You're probably so old and set in your ways old man.

No, I'm just sick of the extreme idiots on this board posting a bunch of BS nonsense and trying to pass it off as mainstream ideals.

 

[Robert_Stephens]

Listening to everything the GOP and Libertarians have to say, I have to say I viamently disagree with the direction they want to take America. They are a very selfish group.

Paul Ryan, the father of a Republican budget initiative that seeks to destroy Medicare and Social Security has continually invoked the name of Ayn Rand as his philosophical mentor and guide. Many other Republicans have do so too. They are embracing a philosophy which, according to Ayn Rand herself, is one of selfishness and is against all forms of Spirituality. The question any thoughtful Americans must ask themselves is: “Is this the America we want?”

And how do they get evangelicals to go along with them is beyond me.

Its a very selfish every man for himself mentality.

And Libertarians don't believe in the Commons. What are the Commons?

The Commons are resources that are owned by all of us. That includes the Grand Canyon, oil rights, power companies, roads, public airwaves, schools, etc.

Here is how they think. Libertarians think if we all own the land on which our sheep graze, we will each add one too many sheep until we destroy the land for future generations. That We the People can't manage the commons.

Libertarians think that if one person owns the land and charged everyone else grazing fees, he would be more committed to preserving it for the future than a village of farmers.

I disagree.

I've read through your diatribe twice...slowly. Are you suffering from tourettes? This is gibberish and explains nothing what Libertarians or anyone else "believes". I truly do not understand. Slow down, collect your thoughts, and then repost and formulate a premise with complete syntax and thought behind same.

Thank you in advance, for me and the rest of us here.

Robert

 

[sealybobo]

Most RW libertarians I talk to on the internet have so many conflicting opinions it makes my head hurt. One minute they are all about personal freedom and responsibility for themselves and the next they seem to have fascist opinions on dealing with social problems such as poverty, immigration and crime. I just cannot compartmentalize my opinions like that, for them all men are not created equal and American exceptionalism forgives all sins.

Republicans may be ok with the idea that we are all born equal because they don't want to admit they were born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

What they believe in is every man for himself and survival of the fittest. So if the weak parrish, so be it. That's what happens in free unregulated markets/societies. Like the caraboo being stalked by the wolves. Its every caraboo for himself. They don't turn around and protect the weak caraboo. They just keep moving.

Democrats like safety nets. No one I know hates their social security and medicare.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Your user name fits you.

 

[sealybobo]

Why I couldn't care less......see post #1.

You're probably so old and set in your ways old man.

No, I'm just sick of the extreme idiots on this board posting a bunch of BS nonsense and trying to pass it off as mainstream ideals.

Your party has been taken over by radical Ayn Rand thinking selfish people gramps. Trying to destroy the Middle Class. Came awful close too. Maybe you don't care because you are old and retired and got yours? Selfish prick. Typical righty. My point exactly. And I bet you enjoy social security and medicare, you ass. You don't realize if not for those two programs, you would die broke.

It isn't my party trying to destroy very popular programs like social security and medicare.

Think about that when you accuse us of being extreme or radical. You are in a fringe group gramps.

 

[dblack]

Fact is, since the GOP made all their cuts to government programs that help the poor and since they implimented their unregulated free trade, more people have slipped into poverty. And charities and religion are proving they are not capable of handling or solving thed growing problem. This is what our government is for.

I don't think that IS what government is for, but if it is - it sure sucks at it. In fact, the more we rely on government for that, the more "succeeds" at consolidating wealth and demolishing the middle class. But the answer is more of the same, eh?

This was written in 2007. This is why I laugh when Republicans try to suggest that Obama is at fault for the mess we are in.

Roll Back the Reagan Tax Cuts | Common Dreams

Since Bush has been president:

•over 5 million people have slipped into poverty;
•nearly 7 million Americans have lost their health insurance;
•median household income has gone down by nearly $1,300;
•three million manufacturing jobs have been lost;
•three million American workers have lost their pensions;
•home foreclosures are now the highest on record;
•the personal savings rate is below zero - which hasn't happened since the great depression;
•the real earnings of college graduates have gone down by about 5% in the last few years;
•entry level wages for male and female high school graduates have fallen by over 3%;
•wages and salaries are now at the lowest share of GDP since 1929.

You're right to point out that this can't be pinned on Obama. It's been pushed along by every president, and most of congress, since FDR. Corporatism is the name of the game, and it's not going to change until we wake up.