Why F1 is so expensive

[HereWeGoAgain]

Guys, it's not the manufacturing time, or the design time, it's the multiple inspections, and testing of the finished product that incurs the expense.

We almost have it as bad in the air race world. It costs a P-51 race plane almost 10,000 to just get airborne, then you are at around 12,000 an hour to fly. That's for a Bronze class. A Gold class you are up to 20,000 an hour, minimum.

In the beginning yes.
Once they have the proper material it's easy.
If they want one bolt you pay out the nose for it.
If it's a part thats needed constantly they'll make a couple thousand and put em on a shelf.

 

[westwall]

In the beginning yes.
Once they have the proper material it's easy.
If they want one bolt you pay out the nose for it.
If it's a part thats needed constantly they'll make a couple thousand and put em on a shelf.

Each piece must go through the same inspection process, every time.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Each piece must go through the same inspection process, every time.

I didnt say they didnt.
Of course every part is inspected.
In todays machine shops that easy. They have whats called a coordinate measuring machine.
You place the part in a fixture and simply push a button. It automatically runs through a program with a probe and touches off every critical point to make sure it's in tolerance. Or you can use them manually,you can touch the probe on the desired location and move the probe all over the place but until you touch the part again it wont take a measurement. The CMM's come in all sizes,from two foot square to 40' X 40' for measuring huge parts.
Never ran or programed one of the big boys but I do know how to operate them.
Then you have to also keep track of the material data sheet that proves you've used the proper material. Each part is marked with that # and it has to correspond with the data sheet that came with said material.

 

[westwall]

I didnt say they didnt.
Of course every part is inspected.
In todays machine shops that easy. They have whats called a coordinate measuring machine.
You place the part in a fixture and simply push a button. It automatically runs through a program with a probe and touches off every critical point to make sure it's in tolerance. Or you can use them manually,you can touch the probe on the desired location and move the probe all over the place but until you touch the part again it wont take a measurement. The CMM's come in all sizes,from two foot square to 40' X 40' for measuring huge parts.
Never ran or programed one of the big boys but I do know how to operate them.
Then you have to also keep track of the material data sheet that proves you've used the proper material. Each part is marked with that # and it has to correspond with the data sheet that came with said material.

You are forgetting the x-ray inspection, the magnaflux inspection, and the ultra sonic inspection as well. It isn't just the physical measurement, it is also making sure there are no inner flaws that cause the part to fail.

And EVERY part is done this way.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

You are forgetting the x-ray inspection, the magnaflux inspection, and the ultra sonic inspection as well. It isn't just the physical measurement, it is also making sure there are no inner flaws that cause the part to fail.

And EVERY part is done this way.

I'm not forgetting them.
Like I've said in the past I worked inspection before I ever ran a machine.
When you get certified material thats already been done. Now they might check a few parts but those certs are accurate.
If a shop gets caught using something besides that certified material they're done.
They'll get sued to oblivion,especially if the material causes an accident.
Again though,any steel company worth its salt wont sell an inferior product. And you can bet the manufacture only uses reputable companies.
And no I can tell you from experience they dont check every part unless it could cause an accident.

 

[Kruska]

Each piece must go through the same inspection process, every time.

Exactly - and if as HereWeGoAgain claims that NASA is sending it's own inspector for every single part throughout the USA and worldwide to "visit" it's 15000+ suppliers, (on a regular basis) it's a miracle that NASA still has money to do it's actual job and employees (17,000) left, to actually work for NASA.

He simply doesn't know as to the actual, procedures and processes in regards to supplying according to AS9100, ISO/IEC 17021, OASIS and IAQG standards. Not even to mention the Motorsports Industries ISO 20121, nor the technical regulations pertaining to FI and Formula E or features such as vibration jigs, tensile-test jigs, pressure-fluid jigs, etc. etc. right down to Engine-teststands.

The classification standards for critical safety parts and non critical parts is the issue here. (The latter one is were maybe the one or other standard supplier gets a chance).

It's just his Ego got hurt - since he knows how to run a CNC and is familiar with standard optical and measurement inspections/protocols.

 

[westwall]

I'm not forgetting them.
Like I've said in the past I worked inspection before I ever ran a machine.
When you get certified material thats already been done. Now they might check a few parts but those certs are accurate.
If a shop gets caught using something besides that certified material they're done.
They'll get sued to oblivion,especially if the material causes an accident.
Again though,any steel company worth its salt wont sell an inferior product. And you can bet the manufacture only uses reputable companies.
And no I can tell you from experience they dont check every part unless it could cause an accident.

ANY part on an F1 car can cause an accident. At the speeds those cars are traveling, and the downforce levels they are under, a failure of any part has the potential to cause an accident.

 

[westwall]

Exactly - and if as HereWeGoAgain claims that NASA is sending it's own inspector for every single part throughout the USA and worldwide to "visit" it's 15000+ suppliers, (on a regular basis) it's a miracle that NASA still has money to do it's actual job and employees (17,000) left, to actually work for NASA.

He simply doesn't know as to the actual, procedures and processes in regards to supplying according to AS9100, ISO/IEC 17021, OASIS and IAQG standards. Not even to mention the Motorsports Industries ISO 20121, nor the technical regulations pertaining to FI and Formula E or features such as vibration jigs, tensile-test jigs, pressure-fluid jigs, etc. etc. right down to Engine-teststands.

The classification standards for critical safety parts and non critical parts is the issue here. (The latter one is were maybe the one or other standard supplier gets a chance).

It's just his Ego got hurt - since he knows how to run a CNC and is familiar with standard optical and measurement inspections/protocols.

Yup, it's pretty clear he has no experience in the high performance world. His statement that they only test parts that might cause an accident is proof if that.

In the F1 and aviation regimes, ALL parts have the potential, when they fail, to cause an accident.

A screw fails on a panel in a truck. No biggie. A screw fails on a panel on a race plane, as happened with Jimmy Leeward, and the plane lands in the crowd at 550mph.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Exactly - and if as HereWeGoAgain claims that NASA is sending it's own inspector for every single part throughout the USA and worldwide to "visit" it's 15000+ suppliers, (on a regular basis) it's a miracle that NASA still has money to do it's actual job and employees (17,000) left, to actually work for NASA.

He simply doesn't know as to the actual, procedures and processes in regards to supplying according to AS9100, ISO/IEC 17021, OASIS and IAQG standards. Not even to mention the Motorsports Industries ISO 20121, nor the technical regulations pertaining to FI and Formula E or features such as vibration jigs, tensile-test jigs, pressure-fluid jigs, etc. etc. right down to Engine-teststands.

The classification standards for critical safety parts and non critical parts is the issue here. (The latter one is were maybe the one or other standard supplier gets a chance).

It's just his Ego got hurt - since he knows how to run a CNC and is familiar with standard optical and measurement inspections/protocols.

Believe what you want.
But they do send their own inspectors or they inspect them at a NASA facility.
Do you really believe they dont inspect work from outside venders?
Hell oil and gas companies inspect parts from outside venders and they compare the data sheets provided by the outside venders to their findings.
If they find a bunch of discrepancies in those data sheets they'll cancel the contract.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I didnt say they didnt.
Of course every part is inspected.
In todays machine shops that easy. They have whats called a coordinate measuring machine.
You place the part in a fixture and simply push a button. It automatically runs through a program with a probe and touches off every critical point to make sure it's in tolerance. Or you can use them manually,you can touch the probe on the desired location and move the probe all over the place but until you touch the part again it wont take a measurement. The CMM's come in all sizes,from two foot square to 40' X 40' for measuring huge parts.
Never ran or programed one of the big boys but I do know how to operate them.
Then you have to also keep track of the material data sheet that proves you've used the proper material. Each part is marked with that # and it has to correspond with the data sheet that came with said material.

So Kruska doenst believe there's such a thing as a CMM?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

ANY part on an F1 car can cause an accident. At the speeds those cars are traveling, and the downforce levels they are under, a failure of any part has the potential to cause an accident.

Nah...
Cars make contact al the time and continue racing.

 

[westwall]

Nah...
Cars make contact al the time and continue racing.

Sure, that's because they are built tough. But try doing 180 down a straightaway and see what happens when a suspension arm gets loose.

We aren't talking about contact at relatively slow speed, we are talking about the stresses when you are at the extreme edge of performance.

Hell, 10 years ago BMW engines were hitting 20,000 rpm as a normal occurrence.

Nothing you have ever built could stand up to that level of abuse.

You know it, and we know it.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Sure, that's because they are built tough. But try doing 180 down a straightaway and see what happens when a suspension arm gets loose.

We aren't talking about contact at relatively slow speed, we are talking about the stresses when you are at the extreme edge of performance.

Hell, 10 years ago BMW engines were hitting 20,000 rpm as a normal occurrence.

Nothing you have ever built could stand up to that level of abuse.

You know it, and we know it.

Yet they still run with broken parts.
As far as me never having built something that can take that kind of stress I cant say for sure because I didnt engineer the parts I made them.
I'd be willing to bet a lot of those Shuttle parts I made would stand up to a shitload of punishment and the materials used would indicate that.

 

[westwall]

Yet they still run with broken parts.
As far as me never having built something that can take that kind of stress I cant say for sure because I didnt engineer the parts I made them.
I'd be willing to bet a lot of those Shuttle parts I made would stand up to a shitload of punishment and the materials used would indicate that.

Unless you built rocket engine parts dealing with the combustion area, or the valving to control the fuel rate, or the exterior skin, then no, you didn't.

I helped design and build the sensor array for the LANDSAT 1, so know of what I speak.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Unless you built rocket engine parts dealing with the combustion area, or the valving to control the fuel rate, or the exterior skin, then no, you didn't.

Well then I guess I did.
Do you know anything about machining,the materials used and what they are intended to do?
You dont make parts out of exotic alloys that are intended to be used in very hostile environments when a regular steel would work.

 

[westwall]

Well then I guess I did.
Do you know anything about machining,the materials used and what they are intended to do?
You dont make parts out of exotic alloys that are intended to be used in very hostile environments when a regular steel would work.

Of course, I have an old Bridgeport mill, and a Clausing 1300 lathe that I have used for over 45 years. High performance vehicles use materials other than steel because steel is too heavy. It's about PERFORMANCE, not merely doing the job.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Of course, I have an old Bridgeport mill, and a Clausing 1300 lathe that I have used for over 45 years. High performance vehicles use materials other than steel because steel is too heavy. It's about PERFORMANCE, not merely doing the job.

Not true.
They also use exotic alloys to withstand all kinds of hostile environments including acids,extreme pressures and heat along with others.

 

[westwall]

Not true.
They also use exotic alloys to withstand all kinds of hostile environments including acids,extreme pressures and heat along with others.

True, but in aviation speed is life, weight kills speed. The same goes for F1. You will find almost NO steel in an F1 car, or airplane, for the simple reason it is too heavy. Titanium and carbon fiber replaces steel in EVERYTHING, all in a endless search to eliminate weight. I don't remember the exact amount but for every kilo of weight over the required weight limit, an F1 loses about .003 seconds per lap.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

True, but in aviation speed is life, weight kills speed. The same goes for F1. You will find almost NO steel in an F1 car, or airplane, for the simple reason it is too heavy. Titanium and carbon fiber replaces steel in EVERYTHING, all in a endless search to eliminate weight. I don't remember the exact amount but for every kilo of weight over the required weight limit, an F1 loses about .003 seconds per lap.

Of course. Titanium and carbon fiber are the two main materials used for light weight and strength.
But....titanium is also very brittle and isnt suited for many high stress applications,it has a tendency to break in those conditions.
It does fine with constant pressure but when it encounters constant shocks it will crack.

 

[Kruska]

Of course. Titanium and carbon fiber are the two main materials used for light weight and strength.
But....titanium is also very brittle and isnt suited for many high stress applications,it has a tendency to break in those conditions.
It does fine with constant pressure but when it encounters constant shocks it will crack.

No one uses Titanium or Carbon fiber for e.g. high pressure valves or camshaft parts - they are all eloxed aluminum via direct CNC operations and Titanium aluminide inter-metallic compounds with a stiffness close to 40 GPa/g·cm3parts, for cold press-sinter parts - which then are partly deburred with a deburring maschine (ADV) and not via a CNC center.
You have never produced any F1 or Motorsport regulated engine parts - so you simply don't know about material specifications and the entire handling process.

Your NASA comparison (who knows what part you actually produced) simply doesn't hold.