Why F1 is so expensive

[westwall]

The procedure to make a single bolt.

 

[pknopp]

I know F1 is still really big but the costs and technology has made it not so interesting to me. I kept up on it until the mid 90's. I still give them props for having the biggest balls and willing to race in the rain unlike so many others but now it's about the car more than the driver.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I doubt they're making a single bolt.
More than likely they'll run a few hundred and put them in stock.
If they were making a single bolt a manual machine would be much cheaper.
You eliminate the programing and set up of a CNC which is very costly.

 

[para bellum]

I doubt they're making a single bolt.
More than likely they'll run a few hundred and put them in stock.
If they were making a single bolt a manual machine would be much cheaper.
You eliminate the programing and set up of a CNC which is very costly.

That part is bog-simple. I can write the program in notepad and upload it to the machine in 15 minutes. Set the jaws, touch off and set Z zero, hit the button. 30 minutes all-in, program/setup.

It literally takes more time to make the drawing than to make the part. That program is less than one page of G-code.

Once the program is in the machine, you leave it there for next time. Cycle time is less than 3 minutes start to finish, the most time consuming part is milling the square. (Double that time if you want it in titanium)

I kept programs for all different thread sizes in the machine, and never went to a manual lathe even for a single fastener. Milling jobs, yes- if there is no complex geometry, I would always take it to the Bridgeport before setting up a VMC.

Setting up a job on a CNC lathe is not a time consuming thing and that program is all canned cycles, so for turning jobs the CNC is almost always faster and better.

I wouldn't want to make only one at a time for a customer, but 6 or 10 would be okay (especially if it was someone with deep pockets like a F1 team)

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

That part is bog-simple. I can write the program in notepad and upload it to the machine in 15 minutes. Set the jaws, touch off and set Z zero, hit the button. 30 minutes all-in, program/setup.

It literally takes more time to make the drawing than to make the part. That program is less than one page of G-code.

Once the program is in the machine, you leave it there for next time. Cycle time is less than 3 minutes start to finish, the most time consuming part is milling the square. (Double that time if you want it in titanium)

I kept programs for all different thread sizes in the machine, and never went to a manual lathe even for a single fastener. Milling jobs, yes- if there is no complex geometry, I would always take it to the Bridgeport before setting up a VMC.

Setting up a job on a CNC lathe is not a time consuming thing and that program is all canned cycles, so for turning jobs the CNC is almost always faster and better.

I wouldn't want to make only one at a time for a customer, but 6 or 10 would be okay (especially if it was someone with deep pockets like a F1 team)

I could run it on a manual machine in far less time.
I can run either manual mills and lathes or CNC's.
I did it for 28 years so I think I have a pretty good grasp on how it works.

 

[Kruska]

I could run it on a manual machine in far less time.
I can run either manual mills and lathes or CNC's.
I did it for 28 years so I think I have a pretty good grasp on how it works.

I am actually a supplier for F1, other racing teams and their respective sub-suppliers - high tolerance/pressure aluminum valves.
You will find my respective parts in any Porsche, Ferrari, BMW or Jaguar.

The usual order quantity is 20-50 pieces - it took me ages to convince 2-3 customers to at least order a 100 - therefore the "exorbitant prices"
Since one can't find a qualified CNC operating company (holding the necessary ISO/DIN and other needed certificates) to be interested at all in such minor quantities. Those that do supply me are friends - who kind of own me a favor, due to me promoting their companies for other products in far higher quantities.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I am actually a supplier for F1, other racing teams and their respective sub-suppliers - high tolerance/pressure aluminum valves.
You will find my respective parts in any Porsche, Ferrari, BMW or Jaguar.

The usual order quantity is 20-50 pieces - it took me ages to convince 2-3 customers to at least order a 100 - therefore the "exorbitant prices"
Since one can't find a qualified CNC operating company (holding the necessary ISO/DIN and other needed certificates) to be interested at all in such minor quantities. Those that do supply me are friends - who kind of own me a favor, due to me promoting their companies for other products in far higher quantities.

Meh...I made flight hardware for the NASA Shuttle program as well as prototype parts for the first F-22 Raptor.
Not to mention medical equipment.

 

[para bellum]

I could run it on a manual machine in far less time.
I can run either manual mills and lathes or CNC's.
I did it for 28 years so I think I have a pretty good grasp on how it works.

You can't make one faster than me on my CNC, because I already have the programs for everything up to 1" loaded. All I have to do is edit a few X's and Z's.

And I can make one, or I can load up the magazine with bars and let the machine go all day- whatever is needed.

And I been doing it for most of 42 years and ran my own shop for the last 16, and just retired last October.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

You can't make one faster than me on my CNC, because I already have the programs for everything up to 1" loaded. All I have to do is edit a few X's and Z's.

And I can make one, or I can load up the magazine with bars and let the machine go all day- whatever is needed.

And I been doing it for most of 42 years and ran my own shop for the last 16, and just retired last October.
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Sure I can.
You still need to make the program and set it up.
The only odd tool would be the radius tool for the thread relief which is simple.
The rest are always in a tool holder since they're used often.
Can I turn out a thousand of them faster than a CNC? Of course not.

Oh...thats a puny shop.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

You can't make one faster than me on my CNC, because I already have the programs for everything up to 1" loaded. All I have to do is edit a few X's and Z's.

And I can make one, or I can load up the magazine with bars and let the machine go all day- whatever is needed.

And I been doing it for most of 42 years and ran my own shop for the last 16, and just retired last October.
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Jesus Christ how old are you!!
I started machining at around 18 and retired at 46.
I first deburred parts and chipped out machines and then into inspection and then to running a machine.
You gotta be pushing 70 by now.

 

[para bellum]

Sure I can.
You still need to make the program and set it up.

I already have programs for shoulder bolts in the machine. Like I said, a quick X and Z edit. Change the collet (if needed) and load the material. Set Z and go. If we're racing, I'm pulling chips in about 5 minutes.

The only odd tool would be the radius tool for the thread relief which is simple.
The rest are always in a tool holder since they're used often.
Can I turn out a thousand of them faster than a CNC? Of course not.

Oh...thats a puny shop.

I don't need any special tools, everything is already loaded and set, and I know where they are going to cut because no one touches my machines but me.

Yes, it's a puny shop, and I punched above my weight class for 16 years in it. That's not all of it btw, it's about 1/3 of it. There's a lot more going on than the picture shows.

But I'm sure yours is bigger and better in every way...

I also did many years of aerospace and defense work for a Boeing prime, and I did almost entirely medical or helicopter stuff in my little shop.

 

[para bellum]

You gotta be pushing 70 by now.

I prefer to look at it as dragging 60...

 

[Kruska]

Meh...I made flight hardware for the NASA Shuttle program as well as prototype parts for the first F-22 Raptor.
Not to mention medical equipment.

No wonder NASA stuff keeps blowing up and the F-22's are so bloody expensive.

What kind of audit did you pass in regards to NASA? and what kind of ISO/AS 9001 documentation did you forward?

You think you just walk up to E.g. BMW Motorsport and offer them your parts?
Just to pass an audit for BMW Motorsport takes 2-3 years and costs around US$ 250,000-350,000 on hardware-investment (especially manufacturing process control and body test-jigs) - not to mention the interference onto production due to endless meetings and reviews - not to mention horrendous QS documentation workload. (BMW requires staff that solely works for BMW projects) + (including provision for BMW factory onsite staff) and MQC related issues (another easy US$250,000) and last not least SAP logistics, monitoring and online provision to BMW (easy another US$ 250,000) The respective production unit line - needs to be separated from other OEM customers and can only be used for BMW orders. Plus specific maintenance and operator documentation (another US$ 50 - 80,000 per year).

Before you are deemed worthy for an audit you already need to invest at minimum of US$ 300,000 - 450,000 + US$200,000 to 400,000 during the audit process. Plus annual running costs of not less then US$ 80,000 - 120,000.

- then divide that by e.g. 50 parts per year. or 6-8 different parts at 20-50 units each.

And you won't get more - since every season (even within the season) the parts completely change. F1 or Motorsport is not a series production with an SOP and a delivery runtime of 3-5 years.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

No wonder NASA stuff keeps blowing up and the F-22's are so bloody expensive.

What kind of audit did you pass in regards to NASA? and what kind of ISO/AS 9001 documentation did you forward?

You think you just walk up to E.g. BMW Motorsport and offer them your parts?
Just to pass an audit for BMW Motorsport takes 2-3 years and costs around US$ 250,000-350,000 on hardware-investment (especially manufacturing process control and body test-jigs) - not to mention the interference onto production due to endless meetings and reviews - not to mention horrendous QS documentation workload. (BMW requires staff that solely works for BMW projects) + (including provision for BMW factory onsite staff) and MQC related issues (another easy US$250,000) and last not least SAP logistics, monitoring and online provision to BMW (easy another US$ 250,000) The respective production unit line - needs to be separated from other OEM customers and can only be used for BMW orders. Plus specific maintenance and operator documentation (another US$ 50 - 80,000 per year).

Before you are deemed worthy for an audit you already need to invest at minimum of US$ 300,000 - 450,000 + US$200,000 to 400,000 during the audit process. Plus annual running costs of not less then US$ 80,000 - 120,000.

- then divide that by e.g. 50 parts per year. or 6-8 different parts at 20-50 units each.

And you won't get more - since every season (even within the season) the parts completely change. F1 or Motorsport is not a series production with an SOP and a delivery runtime of 3-5 years.

I had nothing to do with the O-rings.
And any part that was made was inspected by NASA inspectors and believe me,if even a simple bevel is off that has nothing to do with the function of the part will get rejected.
Maybe talk about something you know like dildos and cross dressing.

 

[Kruska]

Maybe talk about something you know like dildos and cross dressing.

That would obviously be your field of expertise - can't even answer the audit process by NASA.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

That would obviously be your field of expertise - can't even answer the audit process by NASA.

LOL And what would you know about it?
Absolutely nothing which is obvious.
So tell Demwit,are you claiming NASA doesn't inspect the parts they buy?

 

[Kruska]

LOL And what would you know about it?
Absolutely nothing which is obvious.
So tell Demwit,are you claiming NASA doesn't inspect the parts they buy?

Read my post No.13 - maybe in 1966 NASA didn't have audits.
And the nitwit who obviously has no clue in regards to audits and certification processes in regards to the Thread Topic F1 is YOU.
Discussion over.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Read my post No.13 - maybe in 1966 NASA didn't have audits.
And the nitwit who obviously has no clue in regards to audits and certification processes in regards to the Thread Topic F1 is YOU.
Discussion over.

Read my post No.13 - maybe in 1966 NASA didn't have audits.
And the nitwit who obviously has no clue in regards to audits and certification processes in regards to the Thread Topic F1 is YOU.
Discussion over.

You didnt answer.
NASA actually had their own inspectors in our shop.
They checked every part before okaying them.
You'd have to be a complete idiot to think they're going to rely on data sheets filled out by a second party.

 

[Oddball]

 

[westwall]

Guys, it's not the manufacturing time, or the design time, it's the multiple inspections, and testing of the finished product that incurs the expense.

We almost have it as bad in the air race world. It costs a P-51 race plane almost 10,000 to just get airborne, then you are at around 12,000 an hour to fly. That's for a Bronze class. A Gold class you are up to 20,000 an hour, minimum.