Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[Luissa]

Well, an appendix cell is alive. It is an organism.

No, it's not. It is one cell of your body like any other. This is basic biology.

Are you grossly ignorant of the subject and unable to learn due to a learning disorder, or do you simply lie because you cannot defend your position honestly and intelligently?

As a noun, more specifically the term 'human being', does not apply. But, by definition, neither a blastocyst nor a fetus is a human being.

Yes, it does. By definition. It is a distinct living human organism.

The only error is your total ignorance of what the word 'organism' means.

JB, I question your memory of BIO 101. A cell is an organism.

As an organism, it is alive.

And, if it's a human appendix, it is genetically human.

These are the three elements of the point you made that I quoted.

Now, I could get nasty with you about your actual knowledge of biology or even if you ever took BIO 101, but I prefer to stick with facts as they usually work well for me.

So, by his logic condoms are bad also. I wonder how he feels about spermicide?

 

[JBeukema]

Now hold on there a sec. Having an abortion is not an easy thing to do. It is no picnic, I guarantee you. I dont have to defend myself when it comes to my body. Wanna call me a murderer? Go ahead. Ive called myself much worse when I had it done many many MANY years ago. Its nobodies business why I had it done and I answer to nobody on why I did it.

Say what you will. Unless you are a woman....you have no clue.

Wrong. All people have a right to have an opinion about the ending prematurely of a human life. I will grant that currently it is totally legal to do so. But that does not change the basic facts. A human life was ended prematurely by design of another Human.

I and others find that unacceptable and believe it should not be legal to simply kill another human because it may be inconvenient to the mother of the child. Technically it is not homicide since that definition includes that the act is illegal. It is murder though. Just legal murder.

Hello Everyone

I am new to the board and usually I spend several weeks just watching and reading before I post but I have to say something about this comment. There are many reasons why a woman might have an abortion and saying that it is based on inconvenience is a bit unfair. Inconvenience might be a reason for some, but for others, more serious reasons come into play. Rape, health issues, incest and age are all reasons that a woman might choose to terminate a fetus.

These are issues that cannot be understood unless experienced and to dismiss them as inconvenience is grossly callous. I am sure that wasn't the intention from the original poster, but it bears repeating that unless you are a woman that was raped either by a stranger or a relative and got pregnant, there is no way to judge a woman for her choice.

I have been looking for a new message board for quite awhile, this one looks promising, so it is nice to meet you all.

Woman is concerned about how having a baby could change her life 16%
Woman can't afford baby now 21%
Woman has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood 12%
Woman is unready for responsibility 21%
Woman doesn't want others to know she has had sex or is pregnant 1%
Woman is not mature enough, or is too young to have a child 11%
Woman has all the children she wanted, or has all grown-up children 8%
Husband or partner wants woman to have an abortion 1%
Fetus has possible health problem 3%
Woman has health problem 3%
Woman's parents want her to have abortion <1%
Woman was victim of rape or incest 1%
Other 3%
Why Women Have Abortions

 

[Luissa]

So JB, are you against the morning after pill?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Why is it men who cannot make this decision know the proper decision?

"Faith trumps rational argument on this issue?" from youtube below

Does pro-life include not eating and killing other life forms for surely they suffer and die at a more advanced level of life and feeling?

Each month a women, a couple, decide on whether the cells, the potential cells are to be discarded or if they are to attempt a conception and thus life. If they choose not to create life, is that ok, for surely this is life (cellular life) being discarded?

Two out of five (or more) conceptions end naturally, who is at fault here? Nature or gawd? Are these humans?

How is it that a decision that a women or a couple makes is thought of as wrong by another person or entity who have no authority to tell or command another person?

"In the 1950s, about a million illegal abortions a year were performed in the U.S., and over a thousand women died each year as a result. Women who were victims of botched or unsanitary abortions came in desperation to hospital emergency wards, where some died of widespread abdominal infections. Many women who recovered from such infections found themselves sterile or chronically and painfully ill. The enormous emotional stress often lasted a long time."
HISTORY OF ABORTION
Boston Review &mdash; Judith Jarvis Thomson
Top 10 Anti-Abortion Myths - Top 10 Myths About Abortion
Why Francis Beckwith


"Abolition of a woman's right to abortion, when and if she wants it, amounts to compulsory maternity: a form of rape by the State." Edward Abbey

Why is it that idiots think they can keep throwing out the same stupid lies and fake statistics and convince anyone of anything beyond the fact that they are incompetent liars?

Tell me something genius, how many woman died from abortions last year?

Did you know that most illegal abortions occurred in doctors offices or hospitals? The exact same places where the legal ones that occurred pre Wade did? Did you even know that some abortions were legal then?

Stop lying to people if you want to convince them your side is right.

 

[JBeukema]

Two out of five (or more) conceptions end naturally

And?

You will die naturally if we simply wait. Many people die of natural causes 'before their time'. Does that justify stabbing you in the neck tomorrow if I find your existence inconvenient?

 

[JBeukema]

You just jumped from organism to human child.

The organism is human and it is a child. It is, therefore, a human child. By definition

We kill genetically human cells every time we bump into something.

And?

The fact that some of my cells die every day justifies shooting you in the face?

Seems like you are guided by emotion. (e.g. anger?)

try again

 

[Si modo]

A cell is an organism.

only if we're specifically discussing single-celled organisms

we are not

we are discussing humans

You sound like the YECs demanding your religion be taught in school because you don't understand what a scientific theory is

Find a real biologist and ask about the differences between cells, tissues, organs, and organisms

Hell, ask about organelles, too

OK. So you meant multi-cell organisms when you wrote organism.

Cool. We have that corrected.

An appendix is a multi-cell organism. It is alive. It is genetically human, if a human appendix.

Now what?






This is where that argument needs more. Human - adjective and noun.

 

[JBeukema]

I agree, when they start showing they care about the crawling and walking, I'll believe they are pro 'life'

None of you Pro Abortion types have provide a shred of evidence that Pro Choice people do not care about the crawling and walking. We however have ample proof you do not care one whit about human life as you agree snuffing it out in the womb is fine for no other reason then personal discomfort or whim.

You magnify the embryo to the status of a living human with rights

It is a living human. That is biological fact.

Some people believe humans have rights just for being living humans. If you deny that, then such is another discussion.

This thread is titled Why can't the PRO-ABORTION Crowd be Honest? The very title suggests that reproductive freedom is Pro-Abortion. Reproductive freedom is Pro-Choice

Rapists are pro-choice too. They believe they should have the choice to rape.

. The operative word being "Choice". And the title of the thread suggests precious little 'honesty' from the OP.

The OP's views are a matter of public record on this board.

 

[Ravi]

What is this the 1237th thread Buttemia has started about abortion?

Buttemia, why are you so obsessed with this topic?

 

[JBeukema]

The "pro-life" crowd has a cognitive disconnect that I just don't get. Not only are they usually folks that are pro death penalty , but beyond that they are also usually opposed to any kind of comprehensive sex education in schools.

The goals of the pro choice crowd are much easier to understand. Keep abortion safe, legal and RARE!

Cognitive disconnect? Like opposing the death penalty for serial killers but supporting the killing of the unborn- those s innocent and defenseless as one can possibly be?

Again, you turn to emotion.

Emotion and denial of science.

Why can't the pro-abortionists ever be honest?

 

[Ravi]

Rapists are pro-choice too. They believe they should have the choice to rape.

Do they now...are you speaking as an authority on what rapists think or are you just making up shit as you go along?

 

[JBeukema]

What IS in my control is MY BODY.

I already explained why that little slogan is bullshit.

If your position and acts are defensible, why can't you defend them?

no you didnt, You just disagree with it.
If you are anti-freedom then you are from smoking bans, Eating trans fat and salt bans, right down to controlling someones healthcare.

you want control, Admit it.

Can you please learn how to formulate a sentence?

For the record, I oppose smoking ban and Michelle Obama can go fuck herself and stay the fuck away from my double quarter pounder and french fries.

Of course, the people pushing for those controls tend to be the same leftist democrats who are pro-abortion. Go figure.

I see once again you are wholly unable to defend your views logically and have to pass the buck. Why am I not surprised?

 

[Bfgrn]

Now hold on there a sec. Having an abortion is not an easy thing to do. It is no picnic, I guarantee you. I dont have to defend myself when it comes to my body. Wanna call me a murderer? Go ahead. Ive called myself much worse when I had it done many many MANY years ago. Its nobodies business why I had it done and I answer to nobody on why I did it.

Say what you will. Unless you are a woman....you have no clue.

That is half the problem I have. Planned Parenthood keeps telling me there are no mental health problems associated with abortion, and that it is a routine medical procedure. Then people like you come along and tell me not only about the soul searching from before they made the decision, and how much they have agonized after it.

That tells me that I have to choose between Planned Parenthood lying and the fact that everyone I have ever met that has had an abortion has emotional problems. Either I live in a statistical blip or an organization that makes money off of abortions is lying to me. Guess where I come down.

You made a choice, and I was not there. You are completely right about that.I do not judge you for the choice you made, and I even support your right to make that choice. What I find objectionable is you telling me that, unless I am a woman, I cannot comprehend the subject. Guess what, me being male does not mean I have no empathy, no brains, and no imagination. I not only have a clue, I have absolute proof people are lying to me about everything involved.

Until the pro abortion side stops lying, and defending the lies by claiming I am unequipped to understand, I will not offer my support to them. This despite the fact that I personally think abortions should be an option for some women.

My only objection all along to abortion is that it is too easy. Abortion counseling should not be done by an organization that profits off of it. They cannot give unbiased advice, and I fully support defunding Planned Parenthood as long as they preform abortions. They have a conflict of interest, and, despite their rhetoric, offer abortions as a first choice in treating pregnancy. If they want my tax dollars they need to get out of the abortion business.

You cannot legislate morality. Do you honestly believe if Planned Parenthood were shut down, that abortions would end? What WOULD end is the lives of a lot more young women.

Also, as I read your post, I could find things I agree with, but when you called pro choice people pro abortion, you lost credibility. NO ONE is pro abortion.

 

[JBeukema]

Why Can't the Pro-Abortion Crowd Be Honest?

ABORTIONS are the ending of what is certainly a potential human being.

No, it's ending a human life.

That is scientific fact

Why do you people have to deny science and lie outright if what you advocate is really defensible? Also, comparing personal responsibility to slavery trivializes slavery.

 

[rikules]

If one's position is defensible, shouldn't you be able to defend it with logical, cogent, well-thought-out arguments? Shouldn't you be able to discuss the matter in an honest and intelligent manner?

A blastocyst/foetus/etc is an organism. It is alive and it is genetically human.* These are verifiable, objective, demonstrable scientific facts. It is all a matter of basic biology.

Therefore, the child is be definition a living human organism. We are, therefore, dealing with a human life. To 'abort' a pregnancy is to bring about the end of those physiological and biological processes that identify this human organism as alive- it is to bring about the child's death.

It is therefore a scientific fact that when we speak of abortion, we speak of ending human life. As we are also humans, we are therefore dealing with a case of homicide- homicide is defined as the killing of a human being by another human being.

If your position is defensible- if the ending of this life is a defensible ac- then you should be able to demonstrate why this is justifiable or acceptable without denying the facts of what it is you support. When pretend that we're not dealing with a living human being, you reveal that one or both of the following is true:
-You do not know what it is you advocate; you are guided purely by your emotion and your programming. You should shut your fucking mouth and not speak about things you do not understand

-You know your position is indefensible; you must lie about what it is you advocate because you cannot honestly defend your position






*Yes, I know a foetus can die in utero without the woman's body expelling it [see: stone foetus] and that humans aren't the only species to experience pregnancy. Given the context, such things should go unsaid. Let us exercise a little critical thinking here.

"If one's position is defensible, shouldn't you be able to defend it with logical, cogent, well-thought-out arguments? Shouldn't you be able to discuss the matter in an honest and intelligent manner?"


"It is therefore a scientific fact that when we speak of abortion, we speak of ending human life. As we are also humans, we are therefore dealing with a case of homicide- homicide is defined as the killing of a human being by another human being."



so you oppose capital punishment?

you disagree with limbaugh when he said it's ok to kill liberals?

you were appalled when ann coulter said her biggest regret about 9/11 is the fact that the terrorists didn't kill everyone at the new york times?

it angers you when other conservatives talk about sending liberals to third world countries to be murdered?

you were really offended when palerider suggested a game in which liberals would drive through texas and be murdered by conservatives?

and when ex-military guys say "when we discovered a homo in our ranks we took him out and killed him" it really makes you mad?

and when conservative christian republican lt gen james mattis said "it's FUN to shoot people" you were absolutely appalled?




you oppose abortion (because all life (except liberals and gays and atheists and muslims) is precious) yet once the child is born it doesn't bother you at all that it lives in poverty and dies at an early age because it didn't have proper medical care

and should it live long enough to become a homeless adult you want it taken out back and shot....


btw..i still have photos of conservatives carrying signs saying "abort clinton"


and how many cons are stockpiling weapons in hopes of a coming civil war in which they will have the joy of killing liberals and democrats.......millions!


we can discuss abortion rationally just as soon as conservatives stop talking about slaughtering millions of innocent people

 

[Ravi]

Why Can't the Pro-Abortion Crowd Be Honest?

ABORTIONS are the ending of what is certainly a potential human being.

No, it's ending a human life.

That is scientific fact

Why do you people have to deny science and lie outright if what you advocate is really defensible? Also, comparing personal responsibility to slavery trivializes slavery.

No it isn't.

 

[sinister59]

If one's position is defensible, shouldn't you be able to defend it with logical, cogent, well-thought-out arguments? Shouldn't you be able to discuss the matter in an honest and intelligent manner?

A blastocyst/foetus/etc is an organism. It is alive and it is genetically human.* These are verifiable, objective, demonstrable scientific facts. It is all a matter of basic biology.

Therefore, the child is be definition a living human organism. We are, therefore, dealing with a human life. To 'abort' a pregnancy is to bring about the end of those physiological and biological processes that identify this human organism as alive- it is to bring about the child's death.

It is therefore a scientific fact that when we speak of abortion, we speak of ending human life. As we are also humans, we are therefore dealing with a case of homicide- homicide is defined as the killing of a human being by another human being.

If your position is defensible- if the ending of this life is a defensible ac- then you should be able to demonstrate why this is justifiable or acceptable without denying the facts of what it is you support. When pretend that we're not dealing with a living human being, you reveal that one or both of the following is true:
-You do not know what it is you advocate; you are guided purely by your emotion and your programming. You should shut your fucking mouth and not speak about things you do not understand

-You know your position is indefensible; you must lie about what it is you advocate because you cannot honestly defend your position






*Yes, I know a foetus can die in utero without the woman's body expelling it [see: stone foetus] and that humans aren't the only species to experience pregnancy. Given the context, such things should go unsaid. Let us exercise a little critical thinking here.

who are the "pro abortionist ? I heard of pro choice , but not that you make shit up don't you ?

are you adopting unwanted kids ? if so great how many have you adopted ?
maybe we need to make contraceptives free and available to all ?

seems your the deceptive one .

 

[Immanuel]

Now hold on there a sec. Having an abortion is not an easy thing to do. It is no picnic, I guarantee you. I dont have to defend myself when it comes to my body. Wanna call me a murderer? Go ahead. Ive called myself much worse when I had it done many many MANY years ago. Its nobodies business why I had it done and I answer to nobody on why I did it.

Say what you will. Unless you are a woman....you have no clue.

That is half the problem I have. Planned Parenthood keeps telling me there are no mental health problems associated with abortion, and that it is a routine medical procedure. Then people like you come along and tell me not only about the soul searching from before they made the decision, and how much they have agonized after it.

That tells me that I have to choose between Planned Parenthood lying and the fact that everyone I have ever met that has had an abortion has emotional problems. Either I live in a statistical blip or an organization that makes money off of abortions is lying to me. Guess where I come down.

You made a choice, and I was not there. You are completely right about that.I do not judge you for the choice you made, and I even support your right to make that choice. What I find objectionable is you telling me that, unless I am a woman, I cannot comprehend the subject. Guess what, me being male does not mean I have no empathy, no brains, and no imagination. I not only have a clue, I have absolute proof people are lying to me about everything involved.

Until the pro abortion side stops lying, and defending the lies by claiming I am unequipped to understand, I will not offer my support to them. This despite the fact that I personally think abortions should be an option for some women.

My only objection all along to abortion is that it is too easy. Abortion counseling should not be done by an organization that profits off of it. They cannot give unbiased advice, and I fully support defunding Planned Parenthood as long as they preform abortions. They have a conflict of interest, and, despite their rhetoric, offer abortions as a first choice in treating pregnancy. If they want my tax dollars they need to get out of the abortion business.

You cannot legislate morality. Do you honestly believe if Planned Parenthood were shut down, that abortions would end? What WOULD end is the lives of a lot more young women.

Also, as I read your post, I could find things I agree with, but when you called pro choice people pro abortion, you lost credibility. NO ONE is pro abortion.

You can't?

All laws are based upon morality.

Immie

 

[JBeukema]

So, JB I could assume you are against the morning after pill?

Nope. Human life isn't important.

The morning after pill ends a human life, but does not end the existence of a mind- of a person. What matters is the individual, which is the sentient mind regardless of what system (fleshy, digital, or other) it arises from. When that mind ceases to be (the brain or other system from which arises ceases to function), the individual ceases to exist. That is the real death of a person.

If those systems are not yet operational, then the mind cannot have emerged. It does not yet exist and there is, therefore no individual to be harmed through the ending of the life of the system which might have one day given rise to a new mind. Killing a young foetus, then, is like dismantling the internet today. Each system might someday give rise to a new mind- a new individual person- but it has yet to do so. Therefore I cannot harm a non-existent individual by destroying that system.

See: theory of mind; epistemological solipsism

I have no way of knowing whether any of you are human or not. Nor do i really care. What matters is that you appear to me to be other minds. whether you emerge from a fleshy brain, a supercomputer, or some system I cannot even contemplate is irrelevant.

 

[Bfgrn]

That is half the problem I have. Planned Parenthood keeps telling me there are no mental health problems associated with abortion, and that it is a routine medical procedure. Then people like you come along and tell me not only about the soul searching from before they made the decision, and how much they have agonized after it.

That tells me that I have to choose between Planned Parenthood lying and the fact that everyone I have ever met that has had an abortion has emotional problems. Either I live in a statistical blip or an organization that makes money off of abortions is lying to me. Guess where I come down.

You made a choice, and I was not there. You are completely right about that.I do not judge you for the choice you made, and I even support your right to make that choice. What I find objectionable is you telling me that, unless I am a woman, I cannot comprehend the subject. Guess what, me being male does not mean I have no empathy, no brains, and no imagination. I not only have a clue, I have absolute proof people are lying to me about everything involved.

Until the pro abortion side stops lying, and defending the lies by claiming I am unequipped to understand, I will not offer my support to them. This despite the fact that I personally think abortions should be an option for some women.

My only objection all along to abortion is that it is too easy. Abortion counseling should not be done by an organization that profits off of it. They cannot give unbiased advice, and I fully support defunding Planned Parenthood as long as they preform abortions. They have a conflict of interest, and, despite their rhetoric, offer abortions as a first choice in treating pregnancy. If they want my tax dollars they need to get out of the abortion business.

You cannot legislate morality. Do you honestly believe if Planned Parenthood were shut down, that abortions would end? What WOULD end is the lives of a lot more young women.

Also, as I read your post, I could find things I agree with, but when you called pro choice people pro abortion, you lost credibility. NO ONE is pro abortion.

You can't?

All laws are based upon morality.

Immie

Do you believe making abortion a crime will stop abortions? Would you prosecute women that have an abortion as murderers? What about the male, should he be prosecuted?

There are numerous moral issues I will throw at you if you tell me we should make abortion a crime.