Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[Bfgrn]

Do you intend to argue that x should be legal because criminalizing x doesn't eliminate all instances of x?

If you want to criminalize abortion, would you prosecute a young girl who has an abortion for murder? What degree? Would you prosecute the male who impregnated her?

Methinks a manslaughter charge would be more probable. The entire system of first-, second-, and third-degree murder and manslaughter is, in my opinion, a complex system that emerges primarily as a compromise between society's varying views of how various acts of homicide should be punished. That particular question is one I'm not sure I can answer. How can we know what's best for society as a whole in this regard? I am very much open to input, opinion, and debate on that detail.

Well first you will have to overturn the law of the land. So come back when you have that accomplished.

 

[JBeukema]

It can't get much more cut and dry than that. Maybe the ninth time will be a charm.

The sperm can be compared to flour, perhaps. By the time we have a blastocyst, there's nothing 'incomplete' about the matter. The child exists and is developing as it will (barring any unforeseens) for many years before dying.

Point taken.

A blastocyst is not a human being just as cake batter is not a cake.

Yes, because a blostocyst has to be baked at 325-degrees before we decide it's 'finished'

A human being is a distinct living human organism

It has nothing to do with age

Why can't you people ever be honest?

 

[JBeukema]

If you want to criminalize abortion, would you prosecute a young girl who has an abortion for murder? What degree? Would you prosecute the male who impregnated her?

Methinks a manslaughter charge would be more probable. The entire system of first-, second-, and third-degree murder and manslaughter is, in my opinion, a complex system that emerges primarily as a compromise between society's varying views of how various acts of homicide should be punished. That particular question is one I'm not sure I can answer. How can we know what's best for society as a whole in this regard? I am very much open to input, opinion, and debate on that detail.

Well first you will have to overturn the law of the land. .

No, I don't

 

[JBeukema]

modo's not a human because it's not geriatric yet

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Now hold on there a sec. Having an abortion is not an easy thing to do. It is no picnic, I guarantee you. I dont have to defend myself when it comes to my body. Wanna call me a murderer? Go ahead. Ive called myself much worse when I had it done many many MANY years ago. Its nobodies business why I had it done and I answer to nobody on why I did it.

Say what you will. Unless you are a woman....you have no clue.

That is half the problem I have. Planned Parenthood keeps telling me there are no mental health problems associated with abortion, and that it is a routine medical procedure. Then people like you come along and tell me not only about the soul searching from before they made the decision, and how much they have agonized after it.

That tells me that I have to choose between Planned Parenthood lying and the fact that everyone I have ever met that has had an abortion has emotional problems. Either I live in a statistical blip or an organization that makes money off of abortions is lying to me. Guess where I come down.

You made a choice, and I was not there. You are completely right about that.I do not judge you for the choice you made, and I even support your right to make that choice. What I find objectionable is you telling me that, unless I am a woman, I cannot comprehend the subject. Guess what, me being male does not mean I have no empathy, no brains, and no imagination. I not only have a clue, I have absolute proof people are lying to me about everything involved.

Until the pro abortion side stops lying, and defending the lies by claiming I am unequipped to understand, I will not offer my support to them. This despite the fact that I personally think abortions should be an option for some women.

My only objection all along to abortion is that it is too easy. Abortion counseling should not be done by an organization that profits off of it. They cannot give unbiased advice, and I fully support defunding Planned Parenthood as long as they preform abortions. They have a conflict of interest, and, despite their rhetoric, offer abortions as a first choice in treating pregnancy. If they want my tax dollars they need to get out of the abortion business.

You cannot legislate morality. Do you honestly believe if Planned Parenthood were shut down, that abortions would end? What WOULD end is the lives of a lot more young women.

Also, as I read your post, I could find things I agree with, but when you called pro choice people pro abortion, you lost credibility. NO ONE is pro abortion.

I love the "You cannot legislate morality" thing. It shows just how desperate you are for any position that you cling to outright stupidity.

Laws are about nothing but legislating morality. Why else make stealing, or murder, illegal? Seriously, how pathetic can you get?

As for shutting down Planned Parenthood, what makes you think I want them shut down? I uniformly oppose all subsidies and corporate welfare. That includes banks, auto companies, agribusiness, any and all companies or groups that remotely fall under that broad generalization. Planned Parenthood makes plenty of money and can survive without any of my taxes. Name a company that gets tax money to survive and I oppose it.

As for the pro abortion label, I have already proved to others that there are some people who are pro abortion. Unlike you, I do not tar everyone with the same brush. If you personally are not pro abortion there is no need for your fauxrage, I was not talking about you. If you are, wear the label with pride, it at least shows you stand for something.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Pro-abortion crowd? Never heard of it.

If you have never heard of something, that proves it does not exist? Or does your statement just prove how arrogant and condescending you are?

 

[Si modo]

The sperm can be compared to flour, perhaps. By the time we have a blastocyst, there's nothing 'incomplete' about the matter. The child exists and is developing as it will (barring any unforeseens) for many years before dying.

Point taken.

A blastocyst is not a human being just as cake batter is not a cake.

Yes, because a blostocyst has to be baked at 325-degrees before we decide it's 'finished'

A human being is a distinct living human organism

It has nothing to do with age

Why can't you people ever be honest?

Your lame implication about my honesty aside (note: funny how you go that direction when challenged), I'm sorry you haven't the capacity to deal with analogies.

I never argued your strawman that a human being is not a distinct human organism. A skin cell is one, too. You are going back to a dubious point.

Attempting to understand your new point, an infant is not a grown human being, but it is a human being.

So?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I think that it's dis-honest, or at least smug to call anyone "pro abortion," so starting a dialogue from that sort of tone expecting honesty/being forthright? I dunno man.

I think it is dishonest, not to mention idiotic, to deny that some people are pro abortion.

 

[Si modo]

modo's not a human because it's not geriatric yet

And where did I say that. I wonder?

Straw.

 

[JBeukema]

I never argued your strawman that a human being is not a distinct human organism. A skin cell is one, too.

No, it's not.

Basic biology, dude.

Cell -> tissue -> organ -> organism

Not all the same thing

Attempting to understand your new point, an infant is not a grown human being, but it is a human being.

Same as it was halfway through bbirth and the day before birth and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that all the way back to the moment sperm and egg (each a cell) merged to form a new organism

 

[Si modo]

I never argued your strawman that a human being is not a distinct human organism. A skin cell is one, too.

No, it's not.

Basic biology, dude.

Cell -> tissue -> organ -> organism

Not all the same thing

Attempting to understand your new point, an infant is not a grown human being, but it is a human being.

Same as it was halfway through bbirth and the day before birth and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that all the way back to the moment sperm and egg (each a cell) merged to form a new organism

Again, you are trying to tell us a cell is not an organism?

And you have the audacity to question my knowledge of junior high biology, even?

I have to laugh at the not-so-clever daring of that.

 

[G.T.]

I think that it's dis-honest, or at least smug to call anyone "pro abortion," so starting a dialogue from that sort of tone expecting honesty/being forthright? I dunno man.

I think it is dishonest, not to mention idiotic, to deny that some people are pro abortion.

Maybe, but pro choice does not equal being pro abortion. That's inaccurate.

 

[JBeukema]

modo's not a human because it's not geriatric yet

And where did I say that. I wonder?

Straw.

That's your entire argument. You've been claiming a human's not human until it's old enough

instead it's dough

 

[Si modo]

modo's not a human because it's not geriatric yet

And where did I say that. I wonder?

Straw.

That's your entire argument. You've been claiming a human's not human until it's old enough

instead it's dough

No. I'm claiming that a human blastocyst is not a human being (independent of outside life support) just as an equine blastocyst is not a horse and just as cake batter is not a cake.

They all have the potential to be their final selves, but they are not yet.

 

[JBeukema]

And where did I say that. I wonder?

Straw.

That's your entire argument. You've been claiming a human's not human until it's old enough

instead it's dough

No. I'm claiming that a human blastocyst is not a human being (independent of outside life support)

In what biology book does it say you cease to be a human being when you're on a ventilator?

 

[Immanuel]

I think that it's dis-honest, or at least smug to call anyone "pro abortion," so starting a dialogue from that sort of tone expecting honesty/being forthright? I dunno man.

I think it is dishonest, not to mention idiotic, to deny that some people are pro abortion.

Maybe, but pro choice does not equal being pro abortion. That's inaccurate.

I agree and neither does pro life equal being anti-woman or even anti-choice, but you won't hear many liberals acknowledge that fact.

Of course, it is true that the "choice" we are discussing here is really only one choice. There are many "choices" that the pro choice crowd do not believe should be allowed.

I happen to be for the choice of smoking cigarettes even though I don't smoke myself and find the smell of it to be utterly disgusting. The same goes for marijuana. There are some on the left that happen to be against the right to pass on one's wealth to one's children. We all support and oppose different choices. What makes the so called pro choice crowd more pro choice than me? Fact is, they are no more pro choice than I am.

Immie

 

[Si modo]

That's your entire argument. You've been claiming a human's not human until it's old enough

instead it's dough

No. I'm claiming that a human blastocyst is not a human being (independent of outside life support)

In what biology book does it say you cease to be a human being when you're on a ventilator?

More straw from you?

I never said that, however I've participated enough in this debate that I saw it coming. Nothing original there.

They had already met the state of being. Life support in this case is to return them to being not to get them there.

 

[G.T.]

I think it is dishonest, not to mention idiotic, to deny that some people are pro abortion.

Maybe, but pro choice does not equal being pro abortion. That's inaccurate.

I agree and neither does pro life equal being anti-woman or even anti-choice, but you won't hear many liberals acknowledge that fact.

Of course, it is true that the "choice" we are discussing here is really only one choice. There are many "choices" that the pro choice crowd do not believe should be allowed.

I happen to be for the choice of smoking cigarettes even though I don't smoke myself and find the smell of it to be utterly disgusting. The same goes for marijuana. There are some on the left that happen to be against the right to pass on one's wealth to one's children. We all support and oppose different choices. What makes the so called pro choice crowd more pro choice than me? Fact is, they are no more pro choice than I am.

Immie

None of that applies to me. Good point in the 1st sentence.

 

[JBeukema]

Si Modo is a murderer. She knows she is a murderer and that she promotes murder. She knows there is no excuse for what she advocates.

That's why she must declare anyone on a ventilator to be something other than human in order to avoid admitting what it is she advocates. She cannot be honest with us because she cannot be honest with herself. Her denial and willful stupidity is a defense mechanism to prevent her from facing what it is she advocates.

In surrendering her working mind to this higher cause, she has made a religion out of abortionism. It has become a matter of faith to her which is why she cannot discuss the matter honestly or acknowledge reality any more than a communist can face the reality of communism or a Catholic can can acknowledge biblical contradiction.

Here, indeed, is the explanation of a phenomenon which has puzzled many observers. How could the intellectuals accept [this dogma]? ... The [dogmatic] novice, subjecting his soul to the canon law of [their leaders], felt something of the release which Catholicism also brings... Once the renunciation has been made, the mind, instead of operating freely, becomes the servant of a higher and unquestioned purpose. To deny the truth is an act of service. This, of course, is why it is useless to discuss any particular aspect of politics with a[n adherent of dogma]. Any genuine intellectual contact which you have with him involves a challenge to his fundamental faith, a struggle for his soul. For it is very much easier to lay the oblation of spiritual pride on the alter of [dogma] than to snatch it back again

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[Zoom-boing]

In a nutshell:

For people on the "pro-choice" side of things, a woman's 'right to choose' trumps the unborns 'right to life'.

For people on the "pro-life" side of things, the unborns 'right to life' trumps a woman's 'right to choose'.

As for the unborn: From the moment they are conceived and implant into the uterus until they are no longer living, they are 100% human beings. Where folks come up with 'a fetus isn't a baby isn't a human isn't a blah, blah, blah' is beyond me. A two-week old fetus isn't any less human than a two-week old born baby, they are both human beings just at different developmental stages and the stage isn't what makes them human; the fact that humans reproduce humans is what makes them human. Abortion destroys this human life.