Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[DiamondDave]

No, YOU are playing semantics. If willfully ending a human life is murder, then all soldiers who end another person's life are murderers. No one is forcing them to kill are they?

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit is it? Already agreed to the term. And specified the difference.

Still waiting by the way , for some evidence that Pro Life people do not care about the crawling or the walking.

So we can assume that you are in favor of social programs in place to assist poor families and single mothers?

Yes.. they are called voluntary CHARITIES... feel free to VOLUNTARILY donate to them...

As for forced government entitlements, that's a different story

 

[JBeukema]

....

A blastocyst/foetus/etc is an organism. It is alive and it is genetically human.* These are verifiable, objective, demonstrable scientific facts. It is all a matter of basic biology.

....

Absolutely correct.

An appendix cell is also an organism.

No, it's not. It as a cell that is part of tissue that comprises an organ that is part of an organism.

Biology 101

Why do you people have to lie about basic science in order to defend your position? You realize, of course, that makes you no different than the bible-thumping YECs, right?

 

[JBeukema]

Ok, so let's make it clear and honest: Abortion is murder.

It's just a form of murder I happen to agree with!

Murder is a legal term. Abortions conducted during the first trimester are generally not considered murder under American law.

If you agree with it, then you can't be using the term in the moral sense.

Which means you're just trolling because you can't defend your position using any rational argument.

 

[Immanuel]

I agree, when they start showing they care about the crawling and walking, I'll believe they are pro 'life'

None of you Pro Abortion types have provide a shred of evidence that Pro Choice people do not care about the crawling and walking. We however have ample proof you do not care one whit about human life as you agree snuffing it out in the womb is fine for no other reason then personal discomfort or whim.

It is the pro 'life' people who show no regard for the crawling and walking. I have yet to hear a single outcry from the right about the thousands of innocent Iraqis murdered by the war Bush started. What was their crime?

If you use a condom, or your partner uses an IUD or takes birth control pills, are your murderers?

Then you must have cotton in your ears.

Immie

 

[Article 15]

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit is it? Already agreed to the term. And specified the difference.

Still waiting by the way , for some evidence that Pro Life people do not care about the crawling or the walking.

So we can assume that you are in favor of social programs in place to assist poor families and single mothers?

Yes.. they are called voluntary CHARITIES... feel free to VOLUNTARILY donate to them...

As for forced government entitlements, that's a different story

So you are fine with the government forcing women to birth their babies but are against the government helping them out after they are born.

At least someone admits it.

 

[JBeukema]

Technically it is not homicide since that definition includes that the act is illegal. It is murder though. Just legal murder.

You've the terms backward. It is homicide but not murder

 

[Bern80]

Why is it men who cannot make this decision know the proper decision?

How do I know that you choosing to kill an innocent person as a result of an irresponsible act on your part is wrong? Is this a serious question?

 

[editec]

Why Can't the Pro-Abortion Crowd Be Honest?

ABORTIONS are the ending of what is certainly a potential human being.

Forcing pregnant women who do not want to take this potential human being to term is a kind of slavery that no society has the right to impose on them.

How's that for honesty?

 

[JBeukema]

Frankly, I don't give a fuck what the pro-lifers have to say.

I agree, when they start showing they care about the crawling and walking, I'll believe they are pro 'life'

Passing the buck...

If you want to discuss perceived hypocrisy or shortfalls on their part, make a thread about it.

That you feel the need to shift the topic stands as evidence that you cannot defend your position using any cogent logic.

 

[Si modo]

....

A blastocyst/foetus/etc is an organism. It is alive and it is genetically human.* These are verifiable, objective, demonstrable scientific facts. It is all a matter of basic biology.

....

Absolutely correct.

An appendix cell is also an organism.

No, it's not. It as a cell that is part of tissue that comprises an organ that is part of an organism.

Biology 101

Why do you people have to lie about basic science in order to defend your position? You realize, of course, that makes you no different than the bible-thumping YECs, right?

Well, an appendix cell is alive. It is an organism. It is genetically human, if talking about human appendices.

I'm pointing out part of your argument that is shakey, at best.

The word 'human' is both an adjective and a noun. Using it as an adjective, as I pointed out, the argument is shakey.

As a noun, more specifically the term 'human being', does not apply. But, by definition, neither a blastocyst nor a fetus is a human being.

This is a common error in that argument. Just pointing that out.

 

[JBeukema]

The child is not your body. Biology 101. Your beloved catchphrase is, to put it plainly, fucking bullshit. You have every right to do with your body as you will so long as you harm nobody else. You may tattoo it, pierce it, and penetrate it with exotic toys all you like. You may not harm another person either with your body (eg: punching someone in the face) or in the course of doing something to your own body (eg: suicide bombing).

Nobody gives a shit what you do with your body. What's at issue is whether or not you may harm another human being- killing generally being recognized as harmful.
Homicide has always been recognized as a social issue. If I shoot you in the face, it sure as hell is society's business why I did so, so it can be determined whether my acts are acceptable or whether I am guilty of some crime, such as homicide or manslaughter.

When you rely on emotions and refuse to address the matter honestly, you are no different than the wackos waving bibles around. You might be on the other side of the isle, but you are a mirror image of the same mindset.

Think what you will, as it is beyond my control. What IS in my control is MY BODY. Nobody elses. And until you are impregnated with a life you didnt ask for growing in it, you have no say.

If you are "in control" of your body, you would have the sense to not have unprotected sex therby getting pregnant. and as far as the "didn't ask for" line, you did not know that having sex could lead to a pregnancy?

There are instances of rape leading to pregnancy. They are a small minority of abortions, but they do exist.

 

[JBeukema]

Absolutely correct.

An appendix cell is also an organism.

No, it's not. It as a cell that is part of tissue that comprises an organ that is part of an organism.

Biology 101

Why do you people have to lie about basic science in order to defend your position? You realize, of course, that makes you no different than the bible-thumping YECs, right?

Well, an appendix cell is alive. It is an organism.

No, it's not. It is one cell of your body like any other. This is basic biology.

Are you grossly ignorant of the subject and unable to learn due to a learning disorder, or do you simply lie because you cannot defend your position honestly and intelligently?

, you reveal that one or both of the following is true:
-You do not know what it is you advocate; you are guided purely by your emotion and your programming. You should shut your fucking mouth and not speak about things you do not understand

-You know your position is indefensible; you must lie about what it is you advocate because you cannot honestly defend your position

As a noun, more specifically the term 'human being', does not apply. But, by definition, neither a blastocyst nor a fetus is a human being.

Yes, it does. By definition. It is a distinct living human organism.

The only error is your total ignorance of what the word 'organism' means.

 

[Luissa]

So, JB I could assume you are against the morning after pill?

 

[Immanuel]

Now hold on there a sec. Having an abortion is not an easy thing to do. It is no picnic, I guarantee you. I dont have to defend myself when it comes to my body. Wanna call me a murderer? Go ahead. Ive called myself much worse when I had it done many many MANY years ago. Its nobodies business why I had it done and I answer to nobody on why I did it.

Say what you will. Unless you are a woman....you have no clue.

Wrong. All people have a right to have an opinion about the ending prematurely of a human life. I will grant that currently it is totally legal to do so. But that does not change the basic facts. A human life was ended prematurely by design of another Human.

I and others find that unacceptable and believe it should not be legal to simply kill another human because it may be inconvenient to the mother of the child. Technically it is not homicide since that definition includes that the act is illegal. It is murder though. Just legal murder.

Hello Everyone

I am new to the board and usually I spend several weeks just watching and reading before I post but I have to say something about this comment. There are many reasons why a woman might have an abortion and saying that it is based on inconvenience is a bit unfair. Inconvenience might be a reason for some, but for others, more serious reasons come into play. Rape, health issues, incest and age are all reasons that a woman might choose to terminate a fetus.

These are issues that cannot be understood unless experienced and to dismiss them as inconvenience is grossly callous. I am sure that wasn't the intention from the original poster, but it bears repeating that unless you are a woman that was raped either by a stranger or a relative and got pregnant, there is no way to judge a woman for her choice.

I have been looking for a new message board for quite awhile, this one looks promising, so it is nice to meet you all.

Do you realize that less than 10% of abortions are done primarily for the reasons of Fetal Abnormalities, Mother's health, Rape or Incest? In fact, closer to 7%.

http://www.guttmacher.org/media/011003/ov_ab.pdf

See page 10. BTW: to save you the trouble, The Alan Guttmacher Institute is an arm of the largest abortion provider in the country, Planned Parenthood.

My goal is the reduction of abortions. Of the roughly 1 million abortions in the U.S. 930,000 are done for birth control reasons leaving 70,000 as those done for what some might consider legitimate reasons. I, for one, would settle for the end of those 930,000 abortions starting immediately. We can then work on the other 70,000 by working to advance medical procedures protecting the lives of women and babies, incarcerating rapists and ending incest.

BTW Welcome to USMB

Immie

 

[Bern80]

The "pro-life" crowd has a cognitive disconnect that I just don't get. Not only are they usually folks that are pro death penalty ,

Because those that belief in the death penalty and are pro-life have the ability to see the fairly obvious distinction between ending an innocent human life and someone guilty of murder and/or rape. Apparently you can not see that distinction, hence your confusion.

but beyond that they are also usually opposed to any kind of comprehensive sex education in schools.

The goals of the pro choice crowd are much easier to understand. Keep abortion safe, legal and RARE!

There as many different facets of pro-choice as their are pro-life. I guess I could be considered pro-choice to a point (up until viability of the fetus), but have been in heated argument with others that call themself pro-choice who believe a woman is entitled to an abortion for any reason at any time.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Now hold on there a sec. Having an abortion is not an easy thing to do. It is no picnic, I guarantee you. I dont have to defend myself when it comes to my body. Wanna call me a murderer? Go ahead. Ive called myself much worse when I had it done many many MANY years ago. Its nobodies business why I had it done and I answer to nobody on why I did it.

Say what you will. Unless you are a woman....you have no clue.

Wrong. All people have a right to have an opinion about the ending prematurely of a human life. I will grant that currently it is totally legal to do so. But that does not change the basic facts. A human life was ended prematurely by design of another Human.

I and others find that unacceptable and believe it should not be legal to simply kill another human because it may be inconvenient to the mother of the child. Technically it is not homicide since that definition includes that the act is illegal. It is murder though. Just legal murder.

Hello Everyone

I am new to the board and usually I spend several weeks just watching and reading before I post but I have to say something about this comment. There are many reasons why a woman might have an abortion and saying that it is based on inconvenience is a bit unfair. Inconvenience might be a reason for some, but for others, more serious reasons come into play. Rape, health issues, incest and age are all reasons that a woman might choose to terminate a fetus.

These are issues that cannot be understood unless experienced and to dismiss them as inconvenience is grossly callous. I am sure that wasn't the intention from the original poster, but it bears repeating that unless you are a woman that was raped either by a stranger or a relative and got pregnant, there is no way to judge a woman for her choice.

I have been looking for a new message board for quite awhile, this one looks promising, so it is nice to meet you all.

Welcome to the board.

Now to deal with your post.

Bullshit.

I can, and do, understand the emotional consequences of abortion. I also understand the emotional consequences of rape, the death of a child, and even divorce. The fact that I have not experienced all of those things is irrelevant to my understanding. I have a different perspective, and a better understand of how those things affect me, after having experienced some of them, but that does not invalidate my understanding of what happened before.

My experience tells me that my emotional pain causes me to lash out and hurt others when I am in pain. The way I do that is to tell them they do not know what it is like. I actually found myself telling people that have gone through the same thing that they have no idea what I was going through.

Guess what, they did, and they understood that my pain caused me to lash out, just like I understand the same thing when someone tells me I do not understand.

 

[Si modo]

No, it's not. It as a cell that is part of tissue that comprises an organ that is part of an organism.

Biology 101

Why do you people have to lie about basic science in order to defend your position? You realize, of course, that makes you no different than the bible-thumping YECs, right?

Well, an appendix cell is alive. It is an organism.

No, it's not. It is one cell of your body like any other. This is basic biology.

Are you grossly ignorant of the subject and unable to learn due to a learning disorder, or do you simply lie because you cannot defend your position honestly and intelligently?

, you reveal that one or both of the following is true:
-You do not know what it is you advocate; you are guided purely by your emotion and your programming. You should shut your fucking mouth and not speak about things you do not understand

-You know your position is indefensible; you must lie about what it is you advocate because you cannot honestly defend your position

As a noun, more specifically the term 'human being', does not apply. But, by definition, neither a blastocyst nor a fetus is a human being.

Yes, it does. By definition. It is a distinct living human organism.

The only error is your total ignorance of what the word 'organism' means.

JB, I question your memory of BIO 101. A cell is an organism.

As an organism, it is alive.

And, if it's a human appendix, it is genetically human.

These are the three elements of the point you made that I quoted.

Now, I could get nasty with you about your actual knowledge of biology or even if you ever took BIO 101, but I prefer to stick with facts as they usually work well for me.

 

[JBeukema]

I dont have to defend myself when it comes to my body.

The child is not your body. Biology 101. Your beloved catchphrase is, to put it plainly, fucking bullshit. You have every right to do with your body as you will so long as you harm nobody else. You may tattoo it, pierce it, and penetrate it with exotic toys all you like. You may not harm another person either with your body (eg: punching someone in the face) or in the course of doing something to your own body (eg: suicide bombing).

Nobody gives a shit what you do with your body. What's at issue is whether or not you may harm another human being- killing generally being recognized as harmful.

Its nobodies business why I had it done

Homicide has always been recognized as a social issue. If I shoot you in the face, it sure as hell is society's business why I did so, so it can be determined whether my acts are acceptable or whether I am guilty of some crime, such as homicide or manslaughter.

When you rely on emotions and refuse to address the matter honestly, you are no different than the wackos waving bibles around. You might be on the other side of the isle, but you are a mirror image of the same mindset.

The bastocyst, until it can survive outside of the host, is a parasite dependent on the hospitality of the female host. THAT is a biological fact.

And? One could argue that the child forms a parasitic relationship with adults for many years after birth, as well. That doesn't justify infanticide.

If you ascribe to Gaia theory, we're all parasites. We're certainly an invasive species by any fair application of the term.

 

[Bern80]

Why Can't the Pro-Abortion Crowd Be Honest?

ABORTIONS are the ending of what is certainly a potential human being.

Forcing pregnant women who do not want to take this potential human being to term is a kind of slavery that no society has the right to impose on them.

How's that for honesty?

It's only honest if it is factual to state that the fetus is always only a potential human being throughout the pregnancy as opposed to the fetus being defined as an actual human being.

 

[JBeukema]

A cell is an organism.

only if we're specifically discussing single-celled organisms

we are not

we are discussing humans

You sound like the YECs demanding your religion be taught in school because you don't understand what a scientific theory is

Find a real biologist and ask about the differences between cells, tissues, organs, and organisms

Hell, ask about organelles, too